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Wales - 2019/20 - Pivac, Grand Slams, and beyond - Post-RWC '19 and 2020 6Ns build up

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Post by Guest on Wed 04 Dec 2019, 7:11 pm

Wales' 2020 Six Nations Squad:

Forwards (21)

Rhys Carre (Saracens) (6 Caps)
Rob Evans (Scarlets) (36 Caps)
Wyn Jones (Scarlets) (22 Caps)
Elliot Dee (Dragons) (29 Caps)
Ryan Elias (Scarlets) (9 Caps)
Ken Owens (Scarlets) (73 Caps)
Leon Brown (Dragons) (6 Caps)
WillGriff John (Sale) (*uncapped)
Dillon Lewis (Blues) (22 Caps)
Jake Ball (Scarlets) (42 Caps)
Adam Beard (Ospreys) (20 Caps)
Seb Davies (Blues) (7 Caps)
Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) (134 Caps) (CAPTAIN)
Will Rowlands (Wasps) (*uncapped)
Cory Hill (Dragons) (24 Caps)
Aaron Shingler (Scarlets) (26 Caps)
Aaron Wainwright (Dragons) (18 Caps)
Taulupe Faletau (Bath) (72 Caps)
Ross Moriarty (Dragons) (41 Caps)
Josh Navidi (Blues) (23 Caps)
Justin Tipuric (Osprey) (72 Caps)

Backs (17)

Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (51 Caps)
Rhys Webb (Toulon) (31 Caps)
Tomos Williams (Blues) (16 Caps)
Dan Biggar (Northampton) (79 Caps)
Owen Williams (Gloucester) (3 Caps)
Jarrod Evans (Blues) (3 Caps)
Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets) (25 Caps)
Nick Tompkins (Saracens) (*uncapped)
Owen Watkin (Ospreys) (22 Caps)
George North (Ospreys) (91 Caps)
Josh Adams (Blues) (21 Caps)
Owen Lane (Blues) (2 Caps)
Johnny McNicholl (Scarlets) (*uncapped)
Louis Rees-Zammit (Gloucester) (*uncapped)
Jonah Holmes (Leicester Tigers) (3 Caps)
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets) (85 Caps)
Liam Williams (Saracens) (62 Caps)

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Post by Guest on Thu 05 Dec 2019, 3:01 pm

Highlights of the Barbarians game:


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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 05 Dec 2019, 4:21 pm

Why have people marked this thread, and the hi-lights down ?

This place at times. picard

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Post by Guest on Thu 05 Dec 2019, 6:30 pm

Bit strange. It's also strange that I think I had the voting option for about two weeks before it was removed, yet some are still downvoting. While it doesn't impact on visibility of threads, and it's hardly like this site is awash with content, it does add another negative layer to the forum from the...usual suspects...shall we say.

Worth picking over the BaBas game at some point. Some interesting stuff there.

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Post by Guest on Mon 09 Dec 2019, 8:11 pm

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/118070583/gutted-warren-gatland-reflects-on-rugby-world-cup-heartache-missing-wales-star

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 09 Dec 2019, 10:35 pm

miaow wrote:https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/118070583/gutted-warren-gatland-reflects-on-rugby-world-cup-heartache-missing-wales-star

Yes that’s cute. And ironically, he now moves back to where Anscombe played previously...so he can miss him all over again...funny game this...

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Post by Guest on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 8:33 am

Not as cute as you, sweet cheeks...

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Post by Noble-Surfer on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 8:40 am

I think & hope Pivac will build on the success Gats & co have had, rather than throwing out the structures he's put in place, and starting from scratch.

Yes, Gats & Edwards game was built on defence, and it was a pretty successful game plan, even though a lot of us yearned for a more attacking/ exciting brand of rugby, there's no denying the success we've had under Gatland & co.

What I'm hoping is that we will keep the same intensity in defence, and hunger for competing in the tackle/ at the breakdown, but that with Stephen Jones running the attack plays, when our defence turns the ball over, or when we're in possession anyway, we will look to be more expansive with ball in hand, and have more of an attacking flair. A case of building on the foundations that have been laid, rather than re-laying foundations again...

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 8:43 am

Did any of you see the under U19's Wales v Scotland game yesterday ? Some exciting players there, the best player on the pitch was Dan John at fullback, son of former Pontypridd scrum half Paul John.

Guess where he playing ? Millfield. How we keep losing players to these schools in England is a big issue, the WRU really need to get on top of this.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 9:03 am

LordDowlais wrote:Guess where he playing ? Millfield. How we keep losing players to these schools in England is a big issue, the WRU really need to get on top of this.

Why?

It was not an issue when Gareth Edwards went to Millfield, nor should it be now - unless you are saying that promising 16 year old rugby players should only be in regional academies? Most will never make it as a pro player, so having a backup of an education is both sensible and usually will help make them a better player. Surely that benefits Wales?

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Post by bsando on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 9:36 am

I think Wales have a wonderful defensive structure. If they can maintain that and develop their attack further then I could see more trophies heading their way soon. My concern for Wales would be how you deal with integrating younger players to replace star players like AWJ, JD2, Owens, Tiperuc etc. Any transition period can be difficult, although in rugby it is pretty rare for a good team to suddenly become poor unless there are mass retirements (England 2003).

I think if Wales can retain the Gatland way in defence and make their attack a little more "Welsh" then they'll be on to a winner. I heard Gatland say many times you need to earn the right to go wide. Well I think that is too conservative a way to think if you want to have a potent attack. Wales need to take risks and loosen up a bit.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 9:39 am

LondonTiger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Guess where he playing ? Millfield. How we keep losing players to these schools in England is a big issue, the WRU really need to get on top of this.

Why?

It was not an issue when Gareth Edwards went to Millfield, nor should it be now - unless you are saying that promising 16 year old rugby players should only be in regional academies? Most will never make it as a pro player, so having a backup of an education is both sensible and usually will help make them a better player. Surely that benefits Wales?

I am thankful that the Welsh kids have these opportunities, I just wish they had these opportunities in Wales, these are the grass roots things that the WRU could assist with. Keeping these kids here, and with their families, would be my choice, also, they are not lost to the Welsh game, these kids could potentially do a job for the regions that a sub standard NWQ is occupying.


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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 10:02 am

Is there good rugby playing private schools in Wales or are they better in England?
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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 10:04 am

TightHEAD wrote:Is there good rugby playing private schools in Wales or are they better in England?

There aren't any in Wales.

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 10:07 am

If that is the case then you all have the answer. Why shouldn't these talented rugby players have a good education?

Surely its a win win for the WRU?
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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 10:20 am

LordDowlais wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Guess where he playing ? Millfield. How we keep losing players to these schools in England is a big issue, the WRU really need to get on top of this.

Why?

It was not an issue when Gareth Edwards went to Millfield, nor should it be now - unless you are saying that promising 16 year old rugby players should only be in regional academies? Most will never make it as a pro player, so having a backup of an education is both sensible and usually will help make them a better player. Surely that benefits Wales?

I am thankful that the Welsh kids have these opportunities, I just wish they had these opportunities in Wales, these are the grass roots things that the WRU could assist with. Keeping these kids here, and with their families, would be my choice, also, they are not lost to the Welsh game, these kids could potentially do a job for the regions that a sub standard NWQ is occupying.


What Welsh Pro Team is playing a substandard NWQ 15 in place of Dan John? I don't really think any of them are really playing substandard NWQs now, to the detriment of a young player?


Last edited by RiscaGame on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 10:24 am

bsando wrote:I think Wales have a wonderful defensive structure. If they can maintain that and develop their attack further then I could see more trophies heading their way soon. My concern for Wales would be how you deal with integrating younger players to replace star players like AWJ, JD2, Owens, Tipuric etc. Any transition period can be difficult, although in rugby it is pretty rare for a good team to suddenly become poor unless there are mass retirements (England 2003).

I think if Wales can retain the Gatland way in defence and make their attack a little more "Welsh" then they'll be on to a winner. I heard Gatland say many times you need to earn the right to go wide. Well I think that is too conservative a way to think if you want to have a potent attack. Wales need to take risks and loosen up a bit.

I do fancy us to be slightly more attacking, but I still think we won't be that flamboyant. I also wonder whether our defence will be as strong, but that remains to be seen. I think we seem to be doing pretty well integrating new players in. To be fair to Pivac, he made a pretty good start in getting some young talent into a training squad already.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 10:43 am

RiscaGame wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Guess where he playing ? Millfield. How we keep losing players to these schools in England is a big issue, the WRU really need to get on top of this.

Why?

It was not an issue when Gareth Edwards went to Millfield, nor should it be now - unless you are saying that promising 16 year old rugby players should only be in regional academies? Most will never make it as a pro player, so having a backup of an education is both sensible and usually will help make them a better player. Surely that benefits Wales?

I am thankful that the Welsh kids have these opportunities, I just wish they had these opportunities in Wales, these are the grass roots things that the WRU could assist with. Keeping these kids here, and with their families, would be my choice, also, they are not lost to the Welsh game, these kids could potentially do a job for the regions that a sub standard NWQ is occupying.


What Welsh Pro Team is playing a substandard NWQ 15 in place of Will John? I don't really think any of them are really playing substandard NWQs now, to the detriment of a young player?

I did not mean him and his position, I meant the whole ethos of us losing youngsters to the schools in England.

I would love it, if the WRU founded a school, or used an existing college/Uni in each region, to give these kids the same opportunities and keep them in Wales. I know it's a pipe dream, but surely they could free up some of the money they waste elsewhere for this.

I know it happens to a degree in Wales, UWIC, but we really do need to be doing a lot more. Also, just to put it out there, I have no problem with these kids going to England to grasp the opportunities they are being given.

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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 10:50 am

It seems like Cardiff Met are doing pretty well at getting youngsters playing too? I know Dylan Bartlett the prop pretty well and he's getting a good opportunity to play there. I'd imagine there'd have to be a few others? Obviously they're getting a lot of exposure because of the success of Aaron Wainwright too. I think that'll help people see that they don't strictly have to leave for their education. Some might want the life experience of moving away too, I guess.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 11:53 am

LordDowlais wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Is there good rugby playing private schools in Wales or are they better in England?

There aren't any in Wales.


Straight off the top of my head Halum Amos went to Monmouth, and they have an ex Wales player coaching there. Its as posh as any school in England.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 11:57 am

Gooseberry wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Is there good rugby playing private schools in Wales or are they better in England?

There aren't any in Wales.


Straight off the top of my head Halum Amos went to Monmouth, and they have an ex Wales player coaching there. Its as posh as any school in England.

We do have them, but they are not strictly rugby schools. They are normal colleges and uni's.

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 12:18 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Is there good rugby playing private schools in Wales or are they better in England?

There aren't any in Wales.


Christ College Brecon is a very good one. My mate (Gerald Davies' son) went there after starting in 'normal' comprehensive school. Another mate went there around the same time. Was rubbish at rugby in school, didn't show any interest, but went to Christ College and improved massively and ended up at Oxford uni and played for their rugby team which is a good standard.

There are plenty of other fee paying schools - pretty much all are known for sport and producing good sportsmen/women. Off the top of my head and local-ish to me: Monmouth (as mentioned), St John's (Cardiff), Howells (Cardiff), Rougemont (Newport), etc.





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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 12:22 pm

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Is there good rugby playing private schools in Wales or are they better in England?

There aren't any in Wales.


Christ College Brecon is a very good one.  My mate (Gerald Davies' son) went there after starting in 'normal' comprehensive school.  Another mate went there around the same time.  Was rubbish at rugby in school, didn't show any interest, but went to Christ College and improved massively and ended up at Oxford uni and played for their rugby team which is a good standard.

There are plenty of other fee paying schools - pretty much all are known for sport and producing good sportsmen/women.  Off the top of my head and local-ish to me: Monmouth (as mentioned), St John's (Cardiff), Howells (Cardiff), Rougemont (Newport), etc.

Yes, but none of them are rugby specific schools that have teams within the Welsh pyramid, unlike the schools in England.

I just think that it's perhaps something that the WRU could tap into, and if funded properly, could produce some gems.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 12:28 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Is there good rugby playing private schools in Wales or are they better in England?

There aren't any in Wales.


Straight off the top of my head Halum Amos went to Monmouth, and they have an ex Wales player coaching there. Its as posh as any school in England.

We do have them, but they are not strictly rugby schools. They are normal colleges and uni's.


Well Monmouths a "normal" school with a good rugby programme, but yeah point taken I think i'd partially misunderstood the initial point. I agree, there arent the same level of what amounts to specialist rugby schools in Wales be that state or paid. The RFU is investing heavily in getting rugby into more state schools, and the new academies system really helps that. I guess the WRU just doenst have that same level of funding available, so whilst most schools presumably do offer rugby they arent able to provide the same facilities and coaching thats now starting to be seen in England beyond the traditional posh schools. 

Id thought though that the majority of WQ players playing pro rugby in England had been the products of the Welsh system rather than moving here as kids? I guess maybe thats starting to change now though. 

Do the Welsh Exiles programme still exist? Its presumably can work both ways, as it has for Scotland (Evans brothers!) If Wale sis limited by its size, economy and the amount of cash WRU has in what it can offer in terms of youth development then is it so bad if a lot of Welsh kids are taking advantage of English schools and colleges? Whilst some will get gobbled up by English clubs and England it widens the pool of pro level players available to Wales (and the Regions).

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 12:30 pm

It needs much more than just the WRU entering into some sort of educational agreement with a college or uni. Like it or not, people go to places like Millfield, Monmouth, etc. because of prestige and the high level of education and opportunity this buys you (literally) on leaving the school. That's why it costs so much. You won't get that with Coleg Gwent or UWIC, or wherever. You can't just create that sort of level of education and prestige. Even if the WRU linked with a local Welsh college, for example Cardiff and Vale College down in Cardiff Bay, people would still choose somewhere like Millfield if they could afford it as the benefits of graduating from somewhere like that would be far greater than graduating from a local Welsh college who offer BTECs and the like. I work in education and I've seen many attempts at linking sport to educational courses, but it usually ends up with regional academy boys being stuck in places like Coleg Gwent on low level BTEC courses in Sports Studies. Suitable for some, but I've seen boys who should be aiming higher but are pushed in because that's the place linked to the regional academy. So given the choice, I can see why those with a bit of money look to the best sports schools, some of which are outside (but close to) Wales.
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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 12:35 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Do the Welsh Exiles programme still exist?

Yes it still exists, I think ???? Somebody will obviously correct me if I'm wrong though. Rolling Eyes

Gooseberry wrote:Id thought though that the majority of WQ players playing pro rugby in England had been the products of the Welsh system rather than moving here as kids? I guess maybe thats starting to change now though.

A lot of them are approached by the scouts of the many rugby schools in England.

Gooseberry wrote: Its presumably can work both ways, as it has for Scotland (Evans brothers!) If Wale sis limited by its size, economy and the amount of cash WRU has in what it can offer in terms of youth development then is it so bad if a lot of Welsh kids are taking advantage of English schools and colleges? Whilst some will get gobbled up by English clubs and England it widens the pool of pro level players available to Wales (and the Regions).

Yes, and I am not knocking it either, the only worry though, in this fickle world we now live in, these youngsters could potentially end up playing for England if the price is right.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 12:39 pm

The Oracle wrote:It needs much more than just the WRU entering into some sort of educational agreement with a college or uni.  Like it or not, people go to places like Millfield, Monmouth, etc. because of prestige and the high level of education and opportunity this buys you (literally) on leaving the school.  That's why it costs so much.  You won't get that with Coleg Gwent or UWIC, or wherever.  You can't just create that sort of level of education and prestige.  Even if the WRU linked with a local Welsh college, for example Cardiff and Vale College down in Cardiff Bay, people would still choose somewhere like Millfield if they could afford it as the benefits of graduating from somewhere like that would be far greater than graduating from a local Welsh college who offer BTECs and the like.  I work in education and I've seen many attempts at linking sport to educational courses, but it usually ends up with regional academy boys being stuck in places like Coleg Gwent on low level BTEC courses in Sports Studies.  Suitable for some, but I've seen boys who should be aiming higher but are pushed in because that's the place linked to the regional academy.  So given the choice, I can see why those with a bit of money look to the best sports schools, some of which are outside (but close to) Wales.

Yes, I get that, I really do.

But this is not a cost or prestige thing, obviously prestige does come with the college your in, but that could be anywhere.

A lot of these young kids are being approached by these prestigious rugby schools and are ending up there whether parents can afford it or not.

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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 12:52 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Do the Welsh Exiles programme still exist?

Yes it still exists, I think ???? Somebody will obviously correct me if I'm wrong though. Rolling Eyes


You don't have to be like that Lord.

Yes, it still exists.

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 12:58 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:It needs much more than just the WRU entering into some sort of educational agreement with a college or uni.  Like it or not, people go to places like Millfield, Monmouth, etc. because of prestige and the high level of education and opportunity this buys you (literally) on leaving the school.  That's why it costs so much.  You won't get that with Coleg Gwent or UWIC, or wherever.  You can't just create that sort of level of education and prestige.  Even if the WRU linked with a local Welsh college, for example Cardiff and Vale College down in Cardiff Bay, people would still choose somewhere like Millfield if they could afford it as the benefits of graduating from somewhere like that would be far greater than graduating from a local Welsh college who offer BTECs and the like.  I work in education and I've seen many attempts at linking sport to educational courses, but it usually ends up with regional academy boys being stuck in places like Coleg Gwent on low level BTEC courses in Sports Studies.  Suitable for some, but I've seen boys who should be aiming higher but are pushed in because that's the place linked to the regional academy.  So given the choice, I can see why those with a bit of money look to the best sports schools, some of which are outside (but close to) Wales.

Yes, I get that, I really do.

But this is not a cost or prestige thing, obviously prestige does come with the college your in, but that could be anywhere.

A lot of these young kids are being approached by these prestigious rugby schools and are ending up there whether parents can afford it or not.


Yes those players are being offered scholarships because they're good players and the school wants good players as it adds to their desirability/prestige as a school/college. So they waive the fees. That's the whole point of a scholarship. What I'm saying is that the WRU can't just invent a school with prestige tomorrow which would compete with Millfield, and then somehow retain the players in Wales. A school with prestige, fame, top staff, notable alumni, etc. takes hundreds of years to build up in some cases. Think about it practically. What can the WRU realistically do tomorrow that would suddenly make a local school or college in Wales more attractive than taking up a Millfield scholarship? Very little I would imagine. It's the education side of things these kids are going there for with their rugby ability being the vehicle that gets them there (in the case of scholarships). Their rugby develops if course, but it's the opportunities outside of rugby that going to one of these schools brings that's real reason the parents want to send them there. WRU can't replicate that.

I can't afford to send my kids to Millfield but if they were offered a scholarship for my kids I'd bite their hand off. If the WRU partnered with Coleg Gwent and countered Millfield's offer with free fees for my kids to study BTEC at Nash Campus in Newport and play in the Welsh Colleges league........... hmmm, I'd still choose Millfield as it's just a much, much better educational establishment than Coleg Gwent.
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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:06 pm

The Oracle wrote:What I'm saying is that the WRU can't just invent a school with prestige

I am not saying that though. I am saying they could offer the same as these rugby schools in England. Like I said, prestige goes hand in hand it's not just a rugby thing.

If you were studying LAW, but could do that in either the university of Wales or Oxford. You would chose Oxford. Like I said I get that.

If you check these rugby schools in England, they have teams playing within the English pyramid. I would love it, if the University of Swansea/Cardiff/Monmouth did the same, and then worked with the regions. Even if the players did not end up making the grade, perhaps they could end up playing for their university teams within the Welsh rugby pyramid or even, for a Welsh prem side.

I just wish the same opportunities were there for the Welsh kids, in Wales. It's a shame it isn't really.

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:07 pm

Another thing - is this really a big issue? I mean, really?! What percentage of our young players are being enticed over the border for rugby schooling? I'd wager it's less than 1%.

What we need is a list. A list of the players lost to England from Wales. And then a list of players who have gone on to be pro and/or gone on to represent Wales who came through the Welsh schools system. Again, I'd wager that the number we've actually lost to the English club game would be very small. And the number that have ended up representing England over Wales (so truly lost to us) would be ridiculously low. Like, a couple of players at most in the last 40 years? I can't actually think of any that ended up playing for the senior English team??? So why the need to stop players going away for scholarships to top schools? Seems a bit mean!
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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:12 pm

The Oracle wrote:Another thing - is this really a big issue? I mean, really?! What percentage of our young players are being enticed over the border for rugby schooling? I'd wager it's less than 1%.

You seriously need to check, it is a lot more than 1%, a lot more.

The Oracle wrote:What we need is a list. A list of the players lost to England from Wales. And then a list of players who have gone on to be pro and/or gone on to represent Wales who came through the Welsh schools system. Again, I'd wager that the number we've actually lost to the English club game would be very small. And the number that have ended up representing England over Wales (so truly lost to us) would be ridiculously low. Like, a couple of players at most in the last 40 years? I can't actually think of any that ended up playing for the senior English team??? So why the need to stop players going away for scholarships to top schools? Seems a bit mean!

Again, you do this ALL THE TIME.

You are fabricating an argument against me, about things I have not even said. Please have another skim through the thread.

I have said, that I am glad these kids get these opportunities, I do not have any axe to grind with regards to it, I just think it's a shame they do not get these opportunities here in Wales, and then get the chance to play for the academies of the regions.

It's another pathway. OK

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:14 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:What I'm saying is that the WRU can't just invent a school with prestige

I am not saying that though. I am saying they could offer the same as these rugby schools in England. Like I said, prestige goes hand in hand it's not just a rugby thing.

If you were studying LAW, but could do that in either the university of Wales or Oxford. You would chose Oxford. Like I said I get that.

If you check these rugby schools in England, they have teams playing within the English pyramid. I would love it, if the University of Swansea/Cardiff/Monmouth did the same, and then worked with the regions. Even if the players did not end up making the grade, perhaps they could end up playing for their university teams within the Welsh rugby pyramid or even, for a Welsh prem side.

I just wish the same opportunities were there for the Welsh kids, in Wales. It's a shame it isn't really.


I think you're confusing school and uni, which for both countries are different things in terms of rugby. Obviously no school would be in the league pyramid system as the players would be too young. Are you saying Millfield are in the English leagues? I'm pretty sure they just play in the schools system. Hartpury is a college and its senior team is in the English league, but that's because they're adults. But so is Cardiff MET in the Welsh league so we do have an equivalent. Other unis in Wales have been in the leagues at different points in the past I think, but the standard is not as good now so I don't think they'd make it.
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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:19 pm

Oracle, the question you could ask yourself is, how many of these young Welsh players who went through the rugby set-up in England have ended up at the regions ?

Didn't the Vanipolas go to Millfield, if they were given the same opportunities in Wales, perhaps they would be playing for Wales now, perhaps ????

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:21 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Another thing - is this really a big issue? I mean, really?! What percentage of our young players are being enticed over the border for rugby schooling? I'd wager it's less than 1%.

You seriously need to check, it is a lot more than 1%, a lot more.

The Oracle wrote:What we need is a list. A list of the players lost to England from Wales. And then a list of players who have gone on to be pro and/or gone on to represent Wales who came through the Welsh schools system. Again, I'd wager that the number we've actually lost to the English club game would be very small. And the number that have ended up representing England over Wales (so truly lost to us) would be ridiculously low. Like, a couple of players at most in the last 40 years? I can't actually think of any that ended up playing for the senior English team??? So why the need to stop players going away for scholarships to top schools? Seems a bit mean!

Again, you do this ALL THE TIME.

You are fabricating an argument against me, about things I have not even said. Please have another skim through the thread.

I have said, that I am glad these kids get these opportunities, I do not have any axe to grind with regards to it, I just think it's a shame they do not get these opportunities here in Wales, and then get the chance to play for the academies of the regions.

It's another pathway. OK


Why do you ALWAYS do this when someone presents a different side to the argument? You get all stroppy. I don't think there's anything wrong with me saying 'lets make a list'. Surely that would be the most logical way to work out whether this is a problem the WRU need to do something about. A nice list would show us the extent of the problem. I'm not asking you to write a list. I'm just saying a list, compiled by anyone, would help.

Of course it would be nice if we had top schools in Wales that could offer rugby scholarships. We don't, as you corrected me on earlier. But I'm not sure what that has to do with the WRU? That's more a failure of our own governments historically to look after education in Wales and get us 'up there' competing with England. I just can't see the WRU being able to do anything, education-wise, that would be able to influence our education system and make our schools and colleges more attractive than the ones mentioned in England.
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Post by The Oracle on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:22 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Oracle, the question you could ask yourself is, how many of these young Welsh players who went through the rugby set-up in England have ended up at the regions ?

Didn't the Vanipolas go to Millfield, if they were given the same opportunities in Wales, perhaps they would be playing for Wales now, perhaps ????


Very true. 2 players. Any more?
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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:42 pm

The Oracle wrote:Why do you ALWAYS do this when someone presents a different side to the argument? You get all stroppy. I don't think there's anything wrong with me saying 'lets make a list'. Surely that would be the most logical way to work out whether this is a problem the WRU need to do something about. A nice list would show us the extent of the problem. I'm not asking you to write a list. I'm just saying a list, compiled by anyone, would help.

I am not getting stroppy either.

All I am saying is I am not being mean, and I do not want to stop kids going to the English system, I just want them to have the same opportunities here, in Wales, that' all, it offers another pathway.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:43 pm

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Oracle, the question you could ask yourself is, how many of these young Welsh players who went through the rugby set-up in England have ended up at the regions ?

Didn't the Vanipolas go to Millfield, if they were given the same opportunities in Wales, perhaps they would be playing for Wales now, perhaps ????


Very true. 2 players.  Any more?  

I don't need anymore, they are significant enough. If it was one it would be too many for my liking. OK

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:45 pm

Also, there are too very good kids playing for Leicester who I think went through Hartpury after being approached, they would have been an asset to any of our regions.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 2:14 pm

Callam Sheedy, approached by Millfield now playing for Bristol.
Dan Thomas, Hartpury now Bristol.
Matt Protheroe, Hartpury now Bristol.


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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 2:16 pm

Another one, Max Clark, who has recently turned Wales down, now playing for Bath.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 2:18 pm

I could do this all day, do some research, there are loads of decent young Welsh players lost to the regions because they went through the English system.

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 2:34 pm

But compare that to the number of young Welsh players in the Welsh leagues. Literally hundreds and hundreds vs a few going to England. So I do not think it's the big player drain issue it's made out to be. Like I said probably about 1% or less being offered scholarships. There's only a few scholarships handed out by these schools each year, and a lot of them will be taken up by people from England and Scotland too.

On another note, I'm not sure that Hartury is a great example here. It is a college and university. Even I could go there if I wanted. So it's not really about exclusive fee paying schools enticing people over. People move around the UK for uni. Loads and loads and loads of English in our universities too. So not the best example.

On a related note, do you watch the Welsh College League on S4C? Absolutely packed with Welsh players in college in Wales who are also linked to clubs. I prefer watching that to the regions to be honest!
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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 2:39 pm

The Oracle wrote:But compare that to the number of young Welsh players in the Welsh leagues.  Literally hundreds and hundreds vs a few going to England.  So I do not think it's the big player drain issue it's made out to be.  Like I said probably about 1% or less being offered scholarships.  There's only a few scholarships handed out by these schools each year, and a lot of them will be taken up by people from England and Scotland too.  

On another note, I'm not sure that Hartury is a great example here.  It is a college and university.  Even I could go there if I wanted.  So it's not really about exclusive fee paying schools enticing people over.  People move around the UK for uni.  Loads and loads and loads of English in our universities too.  So not the best example.  

On a related note, do you watch the Welsh College League on S4C?  Absolutely packed with Welsh players in college in Wales who are also linked to clubs.  I prefer watching that to the regions to be honest!

Rygbi pawb ? Is that the one ?

Yes I watch it.

But again, that's not the same as what they have in England. Unfortunately.


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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 2:41 pm

The Oracle wrote:On another note, I'm not sure that Hartury is a great example here.

They are all the same, and they offer the same. Welsh youngsters are ending up at schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups.

But like I have said, I have no axe to grind, I just wish we had places like that in Wales.

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Post by Guest on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 2:57 pm

Well this thread picked up...

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 3:00 pm

miaow wrote:Well this thread picked up...

What's your opinion ?

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 3:14 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:On another note, I'm not sure that Hartury is a great example here.

They are all the same, and they offer the same. Welsh youngsters are ending up at schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups.

But like I have said, I have no axe to grind, I just wish we had places like that in Wales.



No, Hartpury is different to the others. Hartpury is a college and uni, like Coleg Gwent and UWIC rolled into one. It is not a private school like the others. Filton is a college like Coleg Gwent too. There is a distinction. Hartpury and Filton are not exclusive. In fact, they take in students with very low grades for post-16 education. They do not offer pre-16 education. The others are exclusive, expensive (unless on scholarship) and offer pre-16 education.
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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 3:20 pm

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:On another note, I'm not sure that Hartury is a great example here.

They are all the same, and they offer the same. Welsh youngsters are ending up at schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups.

But like I have said, I have no axe to grind, I just wish we had places like that in Wales.



No, Hartpury is different to the others.  Hartpury is a college and uni, like Coleg Gwent and UWIC rolled into one.  It is not a private school like the others.  Filton is a college like Coleg Gwent too.  There is a distinction.  Hartpury and Filton are not exclusive.  In fact, they take in students with very low grades for post-16 education.  They do not offer pre-16 education.  The others are exclusive, expensive (unless on scholarship) and offer pre-16 education.

They still come over to Wales and offer the kids scholarships because of their ability to play rugby, Hartpury even have their own senior rugby team within the English pyramid. They take a lot of Welsh players that the regions then miss out on.

As a matter of fact, it's not to dissimilar to what New Zealand do with the island nations.

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 3:37 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:On another note, I'm not sure that Hartury is a great example here.

They are all the same, and they offer the same. Welsh youngsters are ending up at schools and colleges like Hartpury, Millfield, Oakham School, Clifton, Rugby School and Filton, which have strong rugby set-ups.

But like I have said, I have no axe to grind, I just wish we had places like that in Wales.



No, Hartpury is different to the others.  Hartpury is a college and uni, like Coleg Gwent and UWIC rolled into one.  It is not a private school like the others.  Filton is a college like Coleg Gwent too.  There is a distinction.  Hartpury and Filton are not exclusive.  In fact, they take in students with very low grades for post-16 education.  They do not offer pre-16 education.  The others are exclusive, expensive (unless on scholarship) and offer pre-16 education.

They still come over to Wales and offer the kids scholarships because of their ability to play rugby, Hartpury even have their own senior rugby team within the English pyramid. They take a lot of Welsh players that the regions then miss out on.

As a matter of fact, it's not to dissimilar to what New Zealand do with the island nations.


It's not quite what you say with Hartpury.  It's an open access, post-16 college.  I could go there even if they didn't offer me a scholarship and just sign up for a course and, if good at rugby, play for the team.  Like I could at Coleg Gwent.  Or Exeter uni.  Or Manchester uni.  That's different to private schools offering scholarships.  Only subtle, but different.  

Coleg Gwent could go over to England and offer their lads the chance of doing a course in Newport or Pontypool or Ebbw Vale, and play for the rugby team.  In fact, I'm 100% sure they market the other side of the bridge. What's the difference?  The only difference is our college rugby is not a good standard so it's not as much of a 'hook' so students do not come this way.  So again, the Hartpury example is not a great one here.  It's just a good rugby college so if you're interested in studying sport, or agriculture, or equine studies AND you're a handy player then you'll get to play at a decent level with good coaching and good facilities.  Hartpury is not really for the academically gifted.  That's where the private schools come in though.  But the exact same is available at UWIC as it is at Hartpury.
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