Wales - 2019/20 - Pivac, Grand Slams, and beyond - Post-RWC '19 and 2020 6Ns build up

by Guest Wed 04 Dec 2019, 7:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

Wales' 2020 Six Nations Squad:

Forwards (21)

Rhys Carre (Saracens) (6 Caps)
Rob Evans (Scarlets) (36 Caps)
Wyn Jones (Scarlets) (22 Caps)
Elliot Dee (Dragons) (29 Caps)
Ryan Elias (Scarlets) (9 Caps)
Ken Owens (Scarlets) (73 Caps)
Leon Brown (Dragons) (6 Caps)
WillGriff John (Sale) (*uncapped)
Dillon Lewis (Blues) (22 Caps)
Jake Ball (Scarlets) (42 Caps)
Adam Beard (Ospreys) (20 Caps)
Seb Davies (Blues) (7 Caps)
Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) (134 Caps) (CAPTAIN)
Will Rowlands (Wasps) (*uncapped)
Cory Hill (Dragons) (24 Caps)
Aaron Shingler (Scarlets) (26 Caps)
Aaron Wainwright (Dragons) (18 Caps)
Taulupe Faletau (Bath) (72 Caps)
Ross Moriarty (Dragons) (41 Caps)
Josh Navidi (Blues) (23 Caps)
Justin Tipuric (Osprey) (72 Caps)

Backs (17)

Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (51 Caps)
Rhys Webb (Toulon) (31 Caps)
Tomos Williams (Blues) (16 Caps)
Dan Biggar (Northampton) (79 Caps)
Owen Williams (Gloucester) (3 Caps)
Jarrod Evans (Blues) (3 Caps)
Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets) (25 Caps)
Nick Tompkins (Saracens) (*uncapped)
Owen Watkin (Ospreys) (22 Caps)
George North (Ospreys) (91 Caps)
Josh Adams (Blues) (21 Caps)
Owen Lane (Blues) (2 Caps)
Johnny McNicholl (Scarlets) (*uncapped)
Louis Rees-Zammit (Gloucester) (*uncapped)
Jonah Holmes (Leicester Tigers) (3 Caps)
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets) (85 Caps)
Liam Williams (Saracens) (62 Caps)

by **RiscaGame** Thu 09 Jan 2020, 11:11 am

maestegmafia wrote:So I am thinking vs Italy ...!

Rhys Ken John
AWJ and Hill
Navidi, Toby, Tips
Tomos Jarrod
Johnson Parkes
Zamster, Liam, Adams

Dee, Wyn, Dillon, Bally, Basham, Webb, Sheedy, McNicoll

I would imagine something like this.

Jones, Owens, Lee, Ball, AWJ, Shingler, Tipuric, Faletau, G Davies, Biggar, Adams, Parkes, S Williams (Captain), McNicholl, L Williams

Elias, Phil Price, Lewis, Hill, Navidi, T Williams, Evans, Halfpenny.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 09 Jan 2020, 11:11 am

TightHEAD wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Playing for 3rd or 4th place.

You should have more confidence in your team. If you can get past France in Paris, who knows?

Always about England with you lot!

Good comeback! clap

by Guest Thu 09 Jan 2020, 11:20 am

maestegmafia wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
guestalt_physicality wrote:Itoje and Farrell are Saracens' marquee players i.e. outside the salary cap, on salaries around £750k.

Carre is obviously nowhere near that.

One of the Marquee Spots has to be a player recruited from outside the league. So Farrell would have had one last season, probably with Williams. With Itoje's pay rise he may have taken Farrell's spot.

So to keep Farrell they have to include him in the non marquee side of the accounts which means less bidget for the larger squad as I imagine he doesn’t want a pay cut.

It’s smart that England refuse to select outside of players in their premiership. Maybe soon wales can get to the same situation.

I’d agree if we had 12 teams like England too but with only 4 I think we restrict ourselves too much by only picking home players. It’s a good deterrent for players considering leaving though. It’s such a tricky balance (allowing selection of players outside Wales). As we saw previously, without a home selection policy the floodgates might open and the top players swan off to England and France. Great for them, not bad for their development either (potentially), but crap for domestic rugby in Wales and puts pressure on the Wales coaching setup with varying degrees of access to players. Tricky.

So the 60 cap rule is a good one then. Same can be said for cases like Josh Adams, we now know it works.

Yes I think a rule like the 60 cap one, or something similar, is a good balance between having a zero tolerance approach like NZ and having a completely open door policy like Scotland. There needs to be some deterrent from leaving Wales for me, and we need to have strong domestic sides to attract fans and the next generation of players. I get the desire to move away - France is pretty awesome! So a player who has spent his time and got 60 caps can go abroad and still play for Wales. That’s reasonable I think. If Wales players historically had left and really improved then I’d be more happy to encourage it, but the 3 Cyril mentioned above are probably the only examples of Welsh players improving in the history of pro rugby, and I’d argue that Liam Williams was just as good before he left......it’s just he English didn’t see as much of him as they do now! So just Alfie and S Jones improved, for me. But most players have not improved and in many cases struggled or even go worse - Roberts, Gethin, JD2, Lydiate, Mike Phillips - all struggled to really make an impact in France to varying degrees. Some good performances at times but they either didn’t set the world on fire or were roundly criticised for not being very good. JD2, Gethin, Roberts and Lydiate got worse for sure. Did 1/2p struggle too? Charteris? Can’t remember. But overall I think the majority of players seem to be better when in Wales........but if they’ve ‘served their time’ then why not allow them one last hurrah in the country of their choosing. Crack on. 60 caps is a nice balance.

I would say that the players rarely improve, more that the regular exposure to a wider audience gets them recognition for their talents. Far too many times, particularly on this site I have seen a welsh player called overrated by English fans until they reach the premiership and suddenly BT Sports rugby program think the player is world class and people’s opinions quickly change

by TightHEAD Thu 09 Jan 2020, 11:23 am

I hope Toby is left alone to get some game time in for Bath during the 6 nations, rushing him back into the international scene will do him no favours.

by Guest Thu 09 Jan 2020, 11:24 am

maestegmafia wrote:So I am thinking vs Italy ...!

Rhys Ken John
AWJ and Hill
Navidi, Toby, Tips
Tomos Jarrod
Johnson Parkes
Zamster, Liam, Adams

Dee, Wyn, Dillon, Bally, Basham, Webb, Sheedy, McNicoll

That 10-12-13 is ridiculously weak in all honesty and could be the difference between winning and losing. Those bench players will get capped in the autumn, not the six nations.

No point resting players in the first week. Full team against Italy, hit the ground running.

by Guest Thu 09 Jan 2020, 11:25 am

RiscaGame wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:So I am thinking vs Italy ...!

Rhys Ken John
AWJ and Hill
Navidi, Toby, Tips
Tomos Jarrod
Johnson Parkes
Zamster, Liam, Adams

Dee, Wyn, Dillon, Bally, Basham, Webb, Sheedy, McNicoll

I would imagine something like this.

Jones, Owens, Lee, Ball, AWJ, Shingler, Tipuric, Faletau, G Davies, Biggar, Adams, Parkes, S Williams (Captain), McNicholl, L Williams

Elias, Phil Price, Lewis, Hill, Navidi, T Williams, Evans, Halfpenny.

Liam Williams not fit, Halfpenny in form of his life. Phil Price isn't good enough for Wales. Samson Lee isn't playing well either.

by Guest Thu 09 Jan 2020, 11:33 am

I think Pivac will pick the strongest team and only have a look at players who are already there or therabouts for a starting place. Like Tomos Williams.

1. Wyn Jones (could be Rob Evans)
2. Ken Owens (could be Dee)
3. Could be anyone
4. Ball or Hill
5. AWJ
6. Navidi, Moriarty, Shingler, or Wanewright
7. Tipuric
8. might rest Faletau for the week after, but dont think so

9. Tomos W
10. Biggar
11. Adams
12. Parkes
13. Scott W
14. could be Steff Evans or Lane or an outside bet Rees Zammitt
15. Halfpenny

by maestegmafia Thu 09 Jan 2020, 12:23 pm

TightHEAD wrote:I hope Toby is left alone to get some game time in for Bath during the 6 nations, rushing him back into the international scene will do him no favours.

I think we would all disagree with that. He is under much better care with the WRU than his club. An exceptional talent that needs to be nurtured and looked after.

by maestegmafia Thu 09 Jan 2020, 12:29 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:So I am thinking vs Italy ...!

Rhys Ken John
AWJ and Hill
Navidi, Toby, Tips
Tomos Jarrod
Johnson Parkes
Zamster, Liam, Adams

Dee, Wyn, Dillon, Bally, Basham, Webb, Sheedy, McNicoll

I would imagine something like this.

Jones, Owens, Lee, Ball, AWJ, Shingler, Tipuric, Faletau, G Davies, Biggar, Adams, Parkes, S Williams (Captain), McNicholl, L Williams

Elias, Phil Price, Lewis, Hill, Navidi, T Williams, Evans, Halfpenny.

I’m sure an amalgamation of both teams will make the squad. Sure to be a few media surprises in there too. Pivac has been watching a good number of young talented welsh players in the premiership. I would really like him to include a few of those. Sheedy, Protheroe, maybe Costello

by Guest Thu 09 Jan 2020, 1:03 pm

Why do you think that maesteg?

by TightHEAD Thu 09 Jan 2020, 3:38 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I hope Toby is left alone to get some game time in for Bath during the 6 nations, rushing him back into the international scene will do him no favours.

I think we would all disagree with that. He is under much better care with the WRU than his club. An exceptional talent that needs to be nurtured and looked after.

How, Bath have never forced him back into action too early.

Hell of a player and his body needs time to get up to the intensity of international rugby again. Rush him and he'll be injured by the 3rd round of the 6 nations.

Give him time.

by maestegmafia Thu 09 Jan 2020, 4:58 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I hope Toby is left alone to get some game time in for Bath during the 6 nations, rushing him back into the international scene will do him no favours.

I think we would all disagree with that. He is under much better care with the WRU than his club. An exceptional talent that needs to be nurtured and looked after.

How, Bath have never forced him back into action too early.

Hell of a player and his body needs time to get up to the intensity of international rugby again. Rush him and he'll be injured by the 3rd round of the 6 nations.

Give him time.

True Bath RFC have been great in getting him back to fitness you are right.

I’m sure though he will be equally well looked after by the WRU

by mikey_dragon Fri 10 Jan 2020, 12:47 pm

I thought we were only doing Two tests during June tours because everyone got fed up of 3, but we'll be playing Japan first. It'll be interesting to face off against them now.

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 10 Jan 2020, 12:50 pm

Josh Adams and George North both starting at outside centre this weekend.

Interesting....

by mikey_dragon Fri 10 Jan 2020, 1:01 pm

The Adams selection at 13 is odd, the whole Cardiff Blues selection seems odd considering it's a "must win" game.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 10 Jan 2020, 1:11 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:The Adams selection at 13 is odd, the whole Cardiff Blues selection seems odd considering it's a "must win" game.

At Pivac's request I guess.

by mikey_dragon Fri 10 Jan 2020, 1:19 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:The Adams selection at 13 is odd, the whole Cardiff Blues selection seems odd considering it's a "must win" game.

At Pivac's request I guess.

Obvs. I still find the Blues line-up to be an odd one for this game. Adams at 13 is a better idea than Lane at 13 though, cheers Holley.

by **RiscaGame** Fri 10 Jan 2020, 3:33 pm

I’d have thought they’d have played Amos 13, if anybody.

by mikey_dragon Fri 10 Jan 2020, 5:09 pm

Yeah Amos, as he played there before. I can’t see Adams being at 13 for Wales. He’s a better wing than North, whilst North is probably a better 13.

by **RiscaGame** Fri 10 Jan 2020, 5:13 pm

It also seems a bit strange to move Amos from 15 to wing. If you’re moving him, move him to 13 and keep Wales’ most prolific winger on the wing. Don’t understand Blues or Pivac’s logic there.

by mikey_dragon Fri 10 Jan 2020, 7:08 pm

This is all guess work but Pivac must be considering not picking Scott Williams if he's searching for more 13's. In that case he must also be considering North as his first choice 13, with Adams (who is also in the first XV) to step in in case of injury, with Lane to then come off the bench. That's me just trying understand his thinking behind this, I could be wrong. That backline shuffle still messes up Blues most potent strength quite a bit though.

by maestegmafia Fri 10 Jan 2020, 10:26 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:The Adams selection at 13 is odd, the whole Cardiff Blues selection seems odd considering it's a "must win" game.

At Pivac's request I guess.

Obvs. I still find the Blues line-up to be an odd one for this game. Adams at 13 is a better idea than Lane at 13 though, cheers Holley.

Apparently not according to Mullvihill.

George North at 13 for Ospreys too.

The weekend before the squad announcement we have Steff Hughes, George North, Super Josh and the mighty Rabbit Warren play thirteen for the four regions..!

It’s got an element of a trial about it..!

by mikey_dragon Fri 10 Jan 2020, 10:33 pm

It's Mulvihill's tombola then, his selections are just bizarre at times. Watkin is also due back middle of February, his form wasn't amazing anyway but would be a better centre selection than Williams. If that's the 13 trial then talk about selecting the best of a bad bunch Very Happy

.

by maestegmafia Fri 10 Jan 2020, 10:57 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:It's Mulvihill's tombola then, his selections are just bizarre at times. Watkin is also due back middle of February, his form wasn't amazing anyway but would be a better centre selection than Williams. If that's the 13 trial then talk about selecting the best of a bad bunch .

I watched the game Amos played 13 for dragons he looked promising

It will be interesting to see who gets selected

by maestegmafia Sat 11 Jan 2020, 9:14 am

The interview with Aled Walters the Llandovery fitness coach who works with the springboks is an interesting read. Brief insight into how the Bok viewed the RWC from their perspective.

by maestegmafia Sat 11 Jan 2020, 11:50 am

Rather heartfelt interview with big George on his RWC and moving forward from there..

Things are getting tougher year on year as the competition builds

by maestegmafia Sat 11 Jan 2020, 1:08 pm

Rhys Carre sent off for a shoulder tackle against Ospreys. Very harsh decision. Yellow at worse.

by mikey_dragon Sat 11 Jan 2020, 1:12 pm

Oh dear. I'm on pause at the moment but I seen that he was sent off around 4 minutes in.

by maestegmafia Sat 11 Jan 2020, 1:13 pm

Very tough decision by the referee. Have seen a lots worse by Saracens players go unpunished before..!

by mikey_dragon Sat 11 Jan 2020, 1:22 pm

I don’t think the ref had much choice. I disagree and think there was a mitigating factor though, as Dan Evans was tackled. Carre has been quite eager today, it’s a shame he won’t finish the game.

by maestegmafia Sat 11 Jan 2020, 1:27 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I don’t think the ref had much choice. I disagree and think there was a mitigating factor though, as Dan Evans was tackled. Carre has been quite eager today, it’s a shame he won’t finish the game.

I’m sure when he watches again he’ll realise he didn’t need to double tackle. The exuberance of youth...? Hopefully this is a learning experience rather than resulting in him missing the six nations because of a ban.

by mikey_dragon Sat 11 Jan 2020, 1:38 pm

Female commentator and is clueless, “George North is playing outside centre for the first time ever.”

by maestegmafia Sat 11 Jan 2020, 1:41 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Female commentator and is clueless, “George North is playing outside centre for the first time ever.”

Fast forward to catch up next break you get mate..! The other chap corrects her in a few minutes.

by mikey_dragon Sat 11 Jan 2020, 2:00 pm

Hopefully it isn’t more than a week if Carre cops a ban, I’d like for him to be in the Wales team. Props like Carre, John and now Leon Brown are very much in the mould of the Leinster and SA props, which is where we’ve been lacking the last few seasons. Hopefully they come in and kick on. Just need for Ospreys to give Dewi Lake more game time but they’ve seemed reluctant.

by maestegmafia Sat 11 Jan 2020, 2:17 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Hopefully it isn’t more than a week if Carre cops a ban, I’d like for him to be in the Wales team. Props like Carre, John and now Leon Brown are very much in the mould of the Leinster and SA props, which is where we’ve been lacking the last few seasons. Hopefully they come in and kick on. Just need for Ospreys to give Dewi Lake more game time but they’ve seemed reluctant.

I agree.

Just had to nip in the attic for something and missed Os second try..

by maestegmafia Sat 11 Jan 2020, 2:21 pm

Adam beard needs a rocket up his backside he hasn’t played well since his appendix operation

by mikey_dragon Sat 11 Jan 2020, 10:31 pm

Beard probably won't start, and he's been below par since before that operation anyway. Stef Evans won't get in either, he looks out of his depth against high quality opposition.

Interesting to see if Liam Williams gets in, and back 3 options despite Halfpenny's shocker tonight are; Halfpenny, Williams, McNicholl, Lane, Adams, Rees-Zammit. North might be a wing but I wouldn't pick him in that position with those options available.

by Guest Sun 12 Jan 2020, 9:52 pm

How did North go at 13? Didn’t see that game. And the Adams 13 experiment was called off unfortunately.

by mikey_dragon Sun 12 Jan 2020, 10:00 pm

North was pretty good at 13. I think it’s best to persist with him there, he was dangerous in attack and defence, and look hungry. We rarely see that when he’s playing wing.

I wonder if Pivac would try Parkes at 13...

by maestegmafia Sun 12 Jan 2020, 10:11 pm

The Zamster claimed another MOM today with a try and a nice break and assist for the bald scrumhalf.

I think I’d pick a backline of

McNicoll Zamster North Parkes Adams Biggar Tomos

by **RiscaGame** Mon 13 Jan 2020, 9:29 am

I've seen both. The try was a very good finish really, as it looked like he didn't have much of the corner to work with (due to the angle he was at). He also showed some other nice touches, as well as the assist. I suspect he will be in the squad, probably instead of Ashton Hewitt, who hasn't had the chance to put his hand up for selection.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 13 Jan 2020, 10:53 am

I thought this was a good tweet:

Neil Treacy wrote:Seeing a lot of people asking how Rhys Carre could possibly have tackled lower when the Ospreys player dipped into the contact.

6ft 7in Nick Isiekwe is literally beside Carre and seems to have had no issues...

by maestegmafia Mon 13 Jan 2020, 11:49 am

RiscaGame wrote:I've seen both. The try was a very good finish really, as it looked like he didn't have much of the corner to work with (due to the angle he was at). He also showed some other nice touches, as well as the assist. I suspect he will be in the squad, probably instead of Ashton Hewitt, who hasn't had the chance to put his hand up for selection.

There are highlights online.

With a player in such good form I think he deserves a chance in the first match.

by **RiscaGame** Mon 13 Jan 2020, 12:28 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I thought this was a good tweet:

Neil Treacy wrote:Seeing a lot of people asking how Rhys Carre could possibly have tackled lower when the Ospreys player dipped into the contact.

6ft 7in Nick Isiekwe is literally beside Carre and seems to have had no issues...

Shouldn't have double tackled really, or if they are then the first tackler needs to chop. Carre shouldn't have gone to tackle, once Isiekwe was that high.

by Guest Mon 13 Jan 2020, 1:50 pm

It opens the door for Nicky Smith and Rob Evans to guarantee a squad place then.

by Guest Mon 13 Jan 2020, 2:12 pm

Zammett has signed a contract with Glos. Good call. Means he will stay there for a few years yet without being caught by Gatlands law.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 13 Jan 2020, 3:14 pm

Wednesday for the announcement, apparently.

by maestegmafia Mon 13 Jan 2020, 3:43 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Wednesday for the announcement, apparently.

I am hoping for a few surprises I’d really like to see a few creative youngsters given a chance to play

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 13 Jan 2020, 3:50 pm

You'd think that Rees-Zammit will be included, especially with Eddie Jones sniffing around. I've still only seen the odd clip, but he's pretty special from what I've heard. Bring him off the bench against Italy if things are going well.

by mikey_dragon Mon 13 Jan 2020, 4:40 pm

I think the fact that Eddie was sniffing around almost confirms it. Pivac isn't daft. I wonder what he does with Carre though, does he still include him and have him feature in round 3?

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