Ireland vs Scotland 6 Nations - Saturday 1st February 2020 - Match Thread

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Post by Tramptastic on Tue 21 Jan 2020, 3:55 pm

First topic message reminder :

IRELAND V SCOTLAND

1st of February 2020 16:45 Kick off

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 1: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

Ireland: 15 Jordan Larmour, 14 Andrew Conway, 13 Garry Ringrose, 12 Bundee Aki, 11 Jacob Stockdale, 10 Jonathan Sexton (c), 9 Conor Murray, 8 Caelan Doris, 7 Josh van der Flier, 6 CJ Stander, 5 James Ryan, 4 Iain Henderson, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 2 Rob Herring, 1 Cian Healy
Replacements: 16 Ronan Kelleher, 17 Dave Kilcoyne, 18 Andrew Porter, 19 Devin Toner, 20 Peter O’Mahony, 21 John Cooney, 22 Ross Byrne, 23 Robbie Henshaw

Scotland: 15 Stuart Hogg (c), 14 Sean Maitland, 13 Huw Jones, 12 Sam Johnson, 11 Blair Kinghorn, 10 Adam Hastings, 9 Ali Price, 8 Nick Haining, 7 Hamish Watson, 6 Jamie Ritchie, 5 Jonny Gray, 4 Scott Cummings, 3 Zander Fagerson, 2 Fraser Brown, 1 Rory Sutherland
Replacements: 16 Stuart McInally, 17 Allan Dell, 18 Simon Berghan, 19 Ben Toolis, 20 Cornell du Preez, 21 George Horne, 22 Rory Hutchinson, 23 Chris Harris

Perennial World Cup Quarter Finalists vs A Team With No Clear Strategy That Doesn't Currently Play To It's Strengths, Please Come Back Vern

Historical head to head data is useless as Scotland won for the 1st hundred years but Ireland have been dead good since the year 2000, except in 2010 at Croke Park which tells you Dan Parks is the finest rugby player Scotland has ever poached from Australia.

New head coach for Ireland in Farrell vs Townsend with new back room staff

Captain Sexton vs Captain Hogg - Eurgh, there's going to be so much moaning at the ref.

I'm looking forward to seeing a healthy amount of abuse in the thread below, please enjoy.


Last edited by Tramptastic on Thu 30 Jan 2020, 1:40 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Post by TJ on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 9:46 pm

It certainly sounds to me like there is stillmore to come out and the "is believed to" is the classic formula for an unattributable leak from someone in a position to know but who does not want it to be public knowledge that he gave the info. So it could be good info from a team mate or it could be partial info slanted to make them look good from management.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:16 pm

Well it certainly brings an interesting dynamic. Wouldnt surprise me if its a combination of all the things we've talked about. Seems too convenient an altercation if you ask me.

Guess we'll see soon enough whether he's going to bother with this 6Ns.

Great opportunity for Hastings and Weir (if he gets called). Will be interesting to see how hastings gets on v ireland. Id be tempted to put Scott outside him as the voice of experience.
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Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:22 pm

Finn Russell must have zero respect for the management and his fellow players (and/or a serious drink problem) to ignore the warnings. Professional players are role models and as such have to be seen to be clean, or the PC brigade will have them on toast. Letting his country down to buoy his own self importance maybe comes with the territory of 'flawed genius', but he hasn't just let Scotland down but all fans of the tournament and for those that care about it - his Lions chances.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:26 pm

When players are supposedly 'encouraged' to have a drink - i.e. unwind, relax, chill - how much drink fits within protocols? After all, some folks get drunk on the mere fumes of drink and other still appear relatively sober after a few gallons.  
So how do you define too much in human metabolic variance terms? And might it be occupationally unfair to ask Russell to take in less drink than allowed to other players simply because he might have a tendancy to get more easily pi-ssed than others?
Employment tribunal here we come!  Lawyers and fines again!

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Post by NeilyBroon on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:27 pm

Your bet for a lawsuit was bang on fly 😂
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Post by BigGee on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:36 pm

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/a-reason-has-emerged-as-to-why-finn-russell-was-disciplined-by-scotland

It does sound as if he was not in the right headspace to play a part this week, did not even stay in the hotel that night and went home to parents. Maybe he took the defeat to sarries badly or something else going on in his life at the moment.

Please to hear that he came back and talked about it, 'positive talks' sounds a bit more promising for the future.

Maybe going back to France might be the best thing for him this week. it is different and more difficult for the players not based in Scotland, who have to do a lot more coming and going and lack the peer support. Still that was their choice.

Hopefully he will get himself together and be back in the squad sooner rather than later. It did not sound from that that any bridges had been permanently burnt.

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Post by 123456789. on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:45 pm

BigGee wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/a-reason-has-emerged-as-to-why-finn-russell-was-disciplined-by-scotland

It does sound as if he was not in the right headspace to play a part this week, did not even stay in the hotel that night and went home to parents. Maybe he took the defeat to sarries badly or something else going on in his life at the moment.

Please to hear that he came back and talked about it, 'positive talks' sounds a bit more promising for the future.

Maybe going back to France might be the best thing for him this week. it is different and more difficult for the players not based in Scotland, who have to do a lot more coming and going and lack the peer support. Still that was their choice.

Hopefully he will get himself together and be back in the squad sooner rather than later. It did not sound from that that any bridges had been permanently burnt.

Think this bit was waffle from RugbyPass. They reckoned he arrived with Sean Maitland and went straight to the bar on his own, then refused to stop drinking before storming out and going to Stirling. That is quite obviously the behaviour of a problem drinker. There's footage of him that was put out by Scottish rugby on Sunday night chatting with the rest of the players and quite obviously sober. The BBC version is that all the players were given the chance to have a few drinks and he went over the top which seems far more likely.
Hopefully he didn't storm out but made the decision to go back to Paris for practical decisions. He has a game this Saturday to prepare for, perhaps he felt he was best placed getting ready for a game he was playing in than one he wasn't. They don't play again until the 15th. If he, therefore, doesn't come back next week I can't see him being back at all during this Six Nations.

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Post by BigGee on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:45 pm

So how might that effect the team selected?

I am not sure he will call up another FH, he has had the chance to do that already and surely wants FR back in the squad sooner rather than later, so more likely one of Hogg or Hutchy will provide cover. Pete Horne could have been there already and Duncy won't be available until after the weekend in any case.

Maybe we might see something like this now:

1. Del
2. Brown
3. Fagerson Z
4. Cummings
5. Gray
6. Ritchie
7. Watson
8. Bradbury
9. Price - his game last weekend may have edged it for him
10. Hastings
11. Maitland
12. Johnson - makes more sense to have a familiar player outside AH
13. Jones
14. Kinghorn - Graham may be injured
15. Hogg

Sutherland/Bhatti
McInally
Nel
Craig
Crosbie
Horne G
Hutchinson - Centre or FH cover
Steyn - Centre or wing cover


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Post by majesticimperialman on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:49 pm

If Fin Russel is ruled out. Who would be Scotland,s 10?

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Post by RDW on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:52 pm

We'd surely have to call someone up biggee - we can't go into the first game with only one 10 in the squad!

Unfortunately that probably means Horne due to his familiarity with the systems at short notice...

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Post by BigGee on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:52 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:If Fin Russel is ruled out. Who would be Scotland,s 10?

No if about it, he is not playing against Ireland

Adam Hastings will start at FH

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Post by RDW on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:54 pm

I think you're right about this probably meaning a Glasgow midfield too.

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Post by BigGee on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:55 pm

RDW wrote:We'd surely have to call someone up biggee - we can't go into the first game with only one 10 in the squad!

Unfortunately that probably means Horne due to his familiarity with the systems at short notice...

Maybe he thinks Hutchinson is a better option, I am not sure i would disagree with that. I he was going to call Horne, then surely he would be there already.

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Post by RDW on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:58 pm

BigGee wrote:
RDW wrote:We'd surely have to call someone up biggee - we can't go into the first game with only one 10 in the squad!

Unfortunately that probably means Horne due to his familiarity with the systems at short notice...

Maybe he thinks Hutchinson is a better option, I am not sure i would disagree with that. I he was going to call Horne, then surely he would be there already.

I don't get that logic - Horne's not there because Russell was there.

Russell is no longer in the squad so there's space for a 10!

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Post by BigGee on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 11:03 pm

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/russell-warned-he-must-make-the-first-move-to-salvage-scotland-career

Unsurprisingly, Peter Wright has an opinion on this.

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Post by BigGee on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 11:07 pm

RDW wrote:
BigGee wrote:
RDW wrote:We'd surely have to call someone up biggee - we can't go into the first game with only one 10 in the squad!

Unfortunately that probably means Horne due to his familiarity with the systems at short notice...

Maybe he thinks Hutchinson is a better option, I am not sure i would disagree with that. I he was going to call Horne, then surely he would be there already.

I don't get that logic - Horne's not there because Russell was there.

Russell is no longer in the squad so there's space for a 10!

I don't think it is a question about there now being room for another FH, there was always room for another FH in the squad, unusual for there only to be 2 FHs in any squad. He must have had a contingency plan for one of them getting injured already, which from what we know involved Hogg or Hutch.

This all kicked off on monday, so why wait till friday or after to bring in a replacement? The only logic for that is that he is going to bring in Weir, who won't be available till after the game this weekend.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 11:17 pm

BigGee wrote:
I don't think it is a question about there now being room for another FH, there was always room for another FH in the squad, unusual for there only to be 2 FHs in any squad. He must have had a contingency plan for one of them getting injured already, which from what we know involved Hogg or Hutch.
.

Someone needs to he a word with eddie Jones

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 11:49 pm

RDW wrote:

I don't get that logic - Horne's not there because Russell was there.

Russell is no longer in the squad so there's space for a 10!

That rules Horne out then

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 11:53 pm

BigGee wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/russell-warned-he-must-make-the-first-move-to-salvage-scotland-career

Unsurprisingly, Peter Wright has an opinion on this.

His suggestion about trying to use Dodson to broker a peace deal is utterly bizarre, I can’t think of a worse person to suggest given Finn’s family’s history with the SRU

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Post by Cyril on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 12:22 am

Did Russell really decide not to rejoin the Scotland camp, even though he was ‘invited’ to come back?

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Post by 123456789. on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 12:23 am

Yeah he chose not to return. No word as to whether that was practical as in had a game on Saturday or sulk.

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Post by BigGee on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 12:28 am

Hutchinson starts for Saints v London Irish on Friday night, Dell on the bench for Irish.

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Post by TJ on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 12:33 am

123456789. wrote:Yeah he chose not to return. No word as to whether that was practical as in had a game on Saturday or sulk.

We only have unattributed leaks for this. We really do not know what happened. I suspect rather more than we have been told.

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Post by Cyril on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 1:17 am

If he chose not to come back after breaking SRU guidelines (rather than apologising and returning) then it sounds like he’s being a bit of an idiot. I’m sure the SRU would have said if he had extenuating circumstances if that were the case. Sounds like Billy Big Boots syndrome.

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Post by 123456789. on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 1:33 am

TJ wrote:
123456789. wrote:Yeah he chose not to return. No word as to whether that was practical as in had a game on Saturday or sulk.

We only have unattributed leaks for this.  We really do not know what happened.  I suspect rather more than we have been told.

I do think it's odd that all of this occurred supposedly on Sunday and Monday, and that he's supposed to have stormed off on Wednesday. I understand that obviously the SRU didn't want it to overshadow the launch on tuesday. It's even weirder that Hogg was speaking about Russell unprompted in interviews. You'd have thought Townsend would have mentioned in the car down: "don't talk about Finn today, not sure what we're going to do about him getting drunk and missing training as of yet". I don't doubt for a second the drinking stuff happened, that he missed training and on it's own there's grounds to give him the boot for the Ireland game. The way it has all emerged is mysterious nonetheless. I suppose we may find out more with the morning papers.

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Post by BigGee on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 2:02 am

https://www.theoffsideline.com/finn-russell-gregor-townsend/

David barnes seems to have put a bit more flesh on the bones of what actually happened and the timeline.

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Post by Cyril on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 2:39 am

Sounds like he, or Townsend, have to go. I’d ditch Russel. Seems like absolute poison.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 8:40 am

I've always said if Toonie proves me wrong I'll happily eat my words and fully back him as a coach.

Whilst Russell is a petulant idiot at times, this is an incident that seems to have blown up due to tensions rather than the official "issue" actually being severe. I doubt this would have happened with Vern, if it did Russell would probably get a ribbing, be told he's a very naughty boy and to miss training and both parties move on. I expect he ended up chatting about the WC and it got heated because of the drinks at which point the other players stepped in and told him to stop.

This is Townsend's chance to back himself. He said back in October he was still the man for the job, now he needs to show us that he's not just making decisions based on ego.

If Russell stays in the wilderness but we're playing fantastic rugby and actually winning some games fine. I expect we'll see more headless "Toonieball" though, the kind of stuff that makes Scott Johnson's Scotland look extremely well drilled. Either Dodson will back his man and risk severe backlash from the fans or he'll fire Toonie and claim 10% of his salary as a firing bonus.
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Post by TJ on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 9:24 am

Sounds like he, or Townsend, have to go

sounds like a bit of a standoff

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Post by bsando on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 9:27 am

The next 2 weeks are going to be very interesting. Russell is clearly in the wrong. He shouldn't have drunk too much and left the team hotel for Stirling. However...

"Townsend told Russell that he would phone on Tuesday morning to tell him when he could come back into camp, but there was no call until Tuesday evening, and at that point still no clarification on when he could rejoin the group."

So that is a mistake by Townsend. Toonie should have called him to resolve the issue earlier, instead he left Russell all day stewing over his actions and when Townsend did apparently call him that evening, he gave no indication if he could return. Why?! That seems completely bonkers.

"On Wednesday morning, Russell was told by Townsend that he was free to return to Paris to start preparing for Racing 92’s match against Castres on Saturday if that was his preference, and he flew out of Scotland at 6am on Thursday morning. Townsend has also contacted Racing 92 directly about the situation."


picard  Towsend should have been on the phone Tuesday morning laying down the law and making Russell aware that what he did was wrong, 100%.However, he should have then let him know that they need him to be back in camp working hard with his team mates. He may have returned straight away after that. An apology to Hogg and the senior players and coaching staff and his team mates and then back to it. By the time they did give him a vague answer it was most practical to go back to Paris.

Best case scenario here is Russell returns to camp after this weekend to help the team prepare for the Ireland match and the matter is resolved. Second best case scenario is he returns to camp after the Ireland match for the Calcutta Cup. If that doesn't happen I fail to see how he'll return at all. He needs to swallow his pride and accept he did wrong, but Townsend and whoever else has made a bit of a hash of this to be honest. This is way too football for my liking.

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Post by TJ on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 9:35 am

I do not think we will see Russell again while Townsend is coach. Too much bad blood now.

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Post by Tramptastic on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 9:54 am

TJ wrote:I do not think we will see Russell again while Townsend is coach.  Too much bad blood now.

But then mind the short period of time during Townsend's tenure at Glasgow that Hoggy was thinking of going to Ulster (?!?!?) and was being a bit of a kn0b. Townsend dropped him ahead of the pro12 final, Murchie played to everyones detriment and Glasgow lost. Hogg since then has matured, maybe realising that he isn't bigger that the team and even though Glasgow probably would have won with him at fullback they lost because Hoggy couldn't drop his ego and got dropped from the team.

Now there's no bad blood between them at all! He's captain of Scotland!

Time will tell, this could be the making of Russell...

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 10:28 am

What a shambles. Utter shambles. Players out of control, egos everywhere, pride in one of the worst defences in international rugby, a captain with no soft skills and a coach with no clue.

Welcome to Scottish rugby. I just hope the head honcho gets a pay rise for overseeing all of this.....

Look away now. This could get ugly.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 10:29 am

Sounds like Hoggs a bit of a brown noser now tbh. Still hes in a position of great responsibility as the ambassador for Scottish rugby in every "team of the tournament" list.

Russell is what he is. The problem Scotland have is that they dont have the luxury some other nations do in being able to stand up to their most precocious players. Townsends likely to lose his job before Russell retires, and he knows it. The rest of the team probably think hes an absolute douchbag though, but at the same time know if they want to win anything they need their best talents. 

What is it with fly halves? Henson, Cipriani, Cooper, and that other Aussie chap who ended up playing for Italy (cba to google his name).

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 10:36 am

Sure Townsend could have done things better. However it seems to me that blaming him for this fiasco is akin to blaming women for being raped because of what they were wearing or where they went. Russell chose to go on a bender after being told to stop, left the camp and failed to attend training. He is the culprit not Townsend.

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Post by RDW on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 10:43 am

So having reflected on this overnight...

Think it's fair to say Scottish rugby is in the sh#t just now. Since we last played a game:

- Potential permanent, irreparable damage of our relationship with World Rugby
- Our top man fined for his behaviour and seen as having offended an entire nation
- Our organisation sees fit to pay said man a salary grossly over the odds of his compatriots in other nations
- Our star player and coach don't get along, leading to a public and very embarrassing fall out for the SRU on the eve of the 6N

This all reeks of a real culture problem throughout the SRU that's rife throughout the organisation, players and staff. The worrying thing is it might get worse - much worse. I've never really been in the 'Dodson must go' camp but I think this is now the only way. This has to change and it's not going to with his dictatorship steering the ship!

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Post by Tramptastic on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 11:01 am

With the Dodson situation it's quite complex

He's definitely got an ego but sticks his neck out for Scottish rugby on the world stage (in an overly obtuse way but then we live in a world with Eddie Jones so what even counts as obtuse any more?). We've seen unprecedented success at pro club level under his tenure, some of the best players to ever play the pro game have come through the youth system, he backed Toonie at pro club level where upon Glasgow became a serious threat in the league and in Europe, he's overseen the hiring of Cotter (and the sacking), the hiring of Rennie and Cockerill, the introduction of pro contracts in the womens game...

a lot good, some pie on face moments. The biggest negative is Russell's dad's sacking and the bonus fiasco.

From a grassroots level up until recently we've been of the opinion that he's produced more good than bad. We don't get anywhere near the funding level we need to support the community development officers - a key part of grassroots development but the SRU only covers half their wages with clubs having to fund the other half. Would be handy if smaller clubs could have those wages totally covered by the SRU. However the recent bonus news, the new power structure that removes the majority of power from grassroots level is being widely seen as a massive negative.

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Post by EST on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 11:05 am

RDW wrote:So having reflected on this overnight...

Think it's fair to say Scottish rugby is in the sh#t just now. Since we last played a game:

- Potential permanent, irreparable damage of our relationship with World Rugby
- Our top man fined for his behaviour and seen as having offended an entire nation
- Our organisation sees fit to pay said man a salary grossly over the odds of his compatriots in other nations
- Our star player and coach don't get along, leading to a public and very embarrassing fall out for the SRU on the eve of the 6N

This all reeks of a real culture problem throughout the SRU that's rife throughout the organisation, players and staff. The worrying thing is it might get worse - much worse. I've never really been in the 'Dodson must go' camp but I think this is now the only way. This has to change and it's not going to with his dictatorship steering the ship!

Just a shambles.

I'm really not sure what to make of the Finn situation, he has always struck me as a good guy who seems from the outside to get on with his teammates - I have friends who know him personally and they say the same.

Hopefully this whole episode has been blown out of proportion, but it certainly doesn't portray an image of a happy camp.






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Post by lostinwales on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 11:33 am

LondonTiger wrote:Sure Townsend could have done things better. However it seems to me that blaming him for this fiasco is akin to blaming women for being raped because of what they were wearing or where they went. Russell chose to go on a bender after being told to stop, left the camp and failed to attend training. He is the culprit not Townsend.

Yes that is true. But its also possible that Russell would not have stepped out of line with stronger management

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 11:40 am

lostinwales wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Sure Townsend could have done things better. However it seems to me that blaming him for this fiasco is akin to blaming women for being raped because of what they were wearing or where they went. Russell chose to go on a bender after being told to stop, left the camp and failed to attend training. He is the culprit not Townsend.

Yes that is true. But its also possible that Russell would not have stepped out of line with stronger management


I think the argument is that hes too strong and upset Russell by not letting him run the team tactics. 

Seems you cant win, I remember Martin Johnson being hammered in the press for being too harsh on discipline (Cipriani) up until the world cup when he got hammered for letting the players relax and not sending them all home for drinking. 

Maybe its not so much strength as a lack of respect from the players. Or player. Look at Hogg, hes as much of a poster boy as Russell and every bit as sick of being on the losing side but is quite capable of towing the party line. Why is it hes on the bus and Russell isn't? Thats where it seems to come down to individual personalities and the way they react. Russel hasn't come out well form this even for those who don't rate Townsend.

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Post by BigGee on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 11:46 am

I tend to go along with that. Whatever was bugging him that night, the first night of an international csmp is not the night to go on the lash. He is well aware of that.

Russell has let himself and his team down by doing this and why should he get any latitude for doing it just because he is our best player. No other player would have gof away with it and would not be getting any sympathy if they had acted like that.

What choice did Toonie have?


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Post by NeilyBroon on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 11:55 am

Dont get me wrong, I have no doubt that Russell was out of order but I think this situation has been brewing for a while. Russell has tried Toonies tactics which clearly dont work. For those drawing parallels to Hogg and Glasgow, Toonie was in a completely different position, as was Hogg. The tactics were working for Glasgow and Hogg was threatening to leave because he'd get a packet elsewhere and therefore also had poor attitude in training. This seems like its more to do with the management style and tactics than Russell being "too good" for the team. Sometimes you need to walk to highlight an issue. Sometimes itll also backfire. Noone comes out smelling like roses but I'd say the style Toonie had us playing last year will have caused a lot of tensions, and he always seems willing to have a fall guy or a reason other than his tactics for our failure.
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Post by tigertattie on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 11:56 am

For me the booze has just magnified what was a tense situation.

Put it this way, I've seen it many a time in the workplace.

A manager is quite friendly with one of the staff, that member of staff walks in on Monday morning at 9:15 and is rough as hell. The manager asks them "if they are ok" and they are told that a train was missed because in all honesty, I'm as rough as a badgers bahhookie. The manager tells them to go get a drink of water, sort themselves out and make the time back after 5.

Then you get:

A manager is bit miffed with one of the staff having had words just a while ago where there was a difference of opinion around the work dress code, that member of staff walks in on Monday morning at 9:15 and is rough as hell. The manager asks them "why are you late" and they are told that a train was missed because in all honesty, I'm as rough as a badgers bahhookie. The manager tells them unacceptable, states that discipline will be taken and to get to their desk right away but the manager will be back later to give them a roasting.

Finn was silly, Toonie was silly. A clash of personalities has seen a spark explode a powder keg. Finn is now in real danger of becoming Scotland's Cipriani.
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Post by EST on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 12:03 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:Dont get me wrong, I have no doubt that Russell was out of order but I think this situation has been brewing for a while. Russell has tried Toonies tactics which clearly dont work. For those drawing parallels to Hogg and Glasgow, Toonie was in a completely different position, as was Hogg. The tactics were working for Glasgow and Hogg was threatening to leave because he'd get a packet elsewhere and therefore also had poor attitude in training. This seems like its more to do with the management style and tactics than Russell being "too good" for the team. Sometimes you need to walk to highlight an issue. Sometimes itll also backfire. Noone comes out smelling like roses but I'd say the style Toonie had us playing last year will have caused a lot of tensions, and he always seems willing to have a fall guy or a reason other than his tactics for our failure.

I'd tend to agree with a lot of this - I think there must be more of an underlying issue and its blown up.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 12:18 pm

Maybe theres an underlying issue that caused Russell to go out drinking and just not bother to get up for training, and yes we do know hes not happy with the management.
But when someone misses training through being out drinking it doesnt leave the coach much choice but to let it blow up.
It's one thing turning up to work a bit late and making it up in the week, an entirely different thing when you have very limited preparation time for an international sporting event and the key playmaker doesnt turn up.
It affects the entire teams preparations not just his.

Anyone got recent examples of players missing training through drinking in the build up to tests and not being dropped where it wasnt an allowed night out?

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Post by alive555 on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 12:43 pm

EST wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:Dont get me wrong, I have no doubt that Russell was out of order but I think this situation has been brewing for a while. Russell has tried Toonies tactics which clearly dont work. For those drawing parallels to Hogg and Glasgow, Toonie was in a completely different position, as was Hogg. The tactics were working for Glasgow and Hogg was threatening to leave because he'd get a packet elsewhere and therefore also had poor attitude in training. This seems like its more to do with the management style and tactics than Russell being "too good" for the team. Sometimes you need to walk to highlight an issue. Sometimes itll also backfire. Noone comes out smelling like roses but I'd say the style Toonie had us playing last year will have caused a lot of tensions, and he always seems willing to have a fall guy or a reason other than his tactics for our failure.

I'd tend to agree with a lot of this - I think there must be more of an underlying issue and its blown up.

His dad was wrongly dismissed from the SRU would be a good place to start
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Post by Hazel Sapling on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 1:13 pm

So will Toonie call back Weir? Weir was allowed to leave under his watch, but started playing well towards the end of his time in Toonie's system. P Horne has not convinced at this level and Weir has developed strongly these last couple of years at Worcester.

Does the change in playmaker shift Townsend's focus and change our defensive pattern? Hastings does not tackle nearly as well as Russell, who whilst undersized, is an effective defensive player. I assume this swings the pendulum from Price to G Horne to start at SH as well.

Whilst losing Russell is a blow, some of our biggest issues will be matching the Irish set-piece. Will whoever wins the contest to start at loosehead be able to handle the star tightheads Ireland have? Are we going to see a shift in defensive patterns from what has been shown up repeatedly by every opponent? Does Ritchie have the power to be influential at BS or does CDP/Crosbie offer a bit more due to the additional size?

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Post by bsando on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 1:34 pm

If we want a structured game Weir would be a good choice. He isn’t flashy but does the simple stuff well and has a really good boot as we all know. Plus, who is going to be Scotland’s kicker? Hastings should be now, he kicked very well against Exeter.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 1:51 pm

I’m really not on board with the Dodson must go chat, that largely seems to exist on social media

Yes he earns a lot, but arguably he’s had a bigger job than any of the other UK unions.   By which I mean the SRU were in a far bigger mess than the other nations.  The SRU were also probably a far less appealing job than the other nations (at the time) so would have to pay over the odds to get someone half decent.
- When he came in the SRU were in massive debt,
- Had no professional or semi pro league
- No academies, now we have 4
- Glasgow have won the league under his watch
- Murrayfield has sold out repeatedly

His pay this year is as large as it is, due to 3 years worth of performance bonuses being accrued and taken as a lump sum.  It’s also not up to him to decide his pay, the renumeration committee decided he was worth that much

Whilst this whole Finn thing is unfortunate, I don’t think Dodson is the man to blame.

Also the stuff about Finn's dad, yes he was treated poorly by the SRU, but that was a couple of years ago now, and Finn has played a number of times for Scotland since then, so to say this is still an issue, or in someway excuses him breaking curfew & missing training, would be very generous.  Also from my understanding, Finn’s dad now performs a similar role for Scottish Hockey, so it’s not like he’s been unemployed since leaving the SRU.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t agree with some of the stuff Dodson's done, but dealing with players etc, should fall solely under the remit of the coaches/DoR, so if Russell has been a prat, that’s on Toonie to fix, if Toonie has been, then I assume that would be on Dodson/the board to resolve.

I don’t know the ins and outs of this story any better than what’s been reported, but the only two folk that appear to be at fault are Toonie and Finn. If Finn was offered the chance to stay and support his teammates and chose not to, then that is on him, and if he wasn’t and Toonie hasn’t spoken to him about a way back, then that’s on him.

Regardless I hope they find a resolution as it would be a shame to lose Finn to the national setup permanently.

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Post by RDW on Fri 24 Jan 2020, 1:59 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:I’m really not on board with the Dodson must go chat, that largely seems to exist on social media

Yes he earns a lot, but arguably he’s had a bigger job than any of the other UK unions.   By which I mean the SRU were in a far bigger mess than the other nations.  The SRU were also probably a far less appealing job than the other nations (at the time) so would have to pay over the odds to get someone half decent.
- When he came in the SRU were in massive debt,
- Had no professional or semi pro league
- No academies, now we have 4
- Glasgow have won the league under his watch
- Murrayfield has sold out repeatedly

His pay this year is as large as it is, due to 3 years worth of performance bonuses being accrued and taken as a lump sum.  It’s also not up to him to decide his pay, the renumeration committee decided he was worth that much

Whilst this whole Finn thing is unfortunate, I don’t think Dodson is the man to blame.

Also the stuff about Finn's dad, yes he was treaty poorly by the SRU, but that was a couple of years ago now, and Finn has played a number of times for Scotland since then, so to say this is still an issue, or in someway excuses him breaking curfew & missing training, would be very generous.  Also from my understanding, Finn’s dad now performs a similar role for Scottish Hockey, so it’s not like he’s been unemployed since leaving the SRU.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t agree with some of the stuff Dodson's done, but dealing with players etc, should fall solely under the remit of the coaches/DoR, so if Russell has been a prat, that’s on Toonie to fix, if Toonie has been, then I assume that would be on Dodson/the board to resolve.

I don’t know the ins and outs of this story any better than what’s been reported, but the only two folk that appear to be at fault are Toonie and Finn. If Finn was offered the chance to stay and support his teammates and chose not to, then that is on him, and if he wasn’t and Toonie hasn’t spoken to him about a way back, then that’s on him.

Regardless I hope they find a resolution as it would be a shame to lose Finn to the national setup permanently.

There's no doubting he has done a lot of good for Scottish rugby. It's also worth saying that senior director salaries are rarely based on how 'difficult' a job it is but how big a commercial entity they oversee. The MD of a small child cancer charity probably has a more difficult job, but because they are a small commercial entity they will have a relatively small salary. The issue is his pay (even his base pay) dewarfs all the other home nations even though we're by far the smallest commercial entity. 

My reasoning to have moved towards the Dodson must go caamp isn't based on the salary 'scandal', more that Scottish rugby is a bit of a mess right now and getting publicity for all the wrong reasons. There needs to be a cultural change in the organisation, but that won't happen when the man at the top is still there - particularly someone like him whose management style is more of a dictatorship.

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