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Post by RDW on Mon 23 Mar 2020, 8:50 am

A thread set up to house the more serious chat relating to the global pandemic.

Nothing has changed in what we expect from discussions on here though:

- Please treat each other with respect
- Avoid hyperbole and fake news
- This thread shouldn't be used for a political soapbox, but political discussion will likely happen. See point 1!

A reminder that we have a community thread here for people to vent, look for help and all round support each other. https://www.606v2.com/t69506-the-covid-19-community-thread#3896653

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Post by BigGee on Mon 23 Mar 2020, 9:02 am

https://twitter.com/protectheflames/status/1241696164782669824


Now this is how Italians mayors are trying to get the message across!

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Post by whocares on Mon 23 Mar 2020, 9:29 am

Haha love it - wish we would have some of these bad ass mayors over here Smile

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Post by RDW on Mon 23 Mar 2020, 10:51 am

https://www.instagram.com/p/B-ErAohFbKr/?igshid=155275gjh4jnr

I think I speak for every rational human being when I say WTF is Max Evans on?? That opening line of the text below is particularly ignorant, whether he meant it that way!

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Post by Pot Hale on Mon 23 Mar 2020, 12:06 pm

RDW wrote:https://www.instagram.com/p/B-ErAohFbKr/?igshid=155275gjh4jnr

I think I speak for every rational human being when I say WTF is Max Evans on?? That opening line of the text below is particularly ignorant, whether he meant it that way!

You can tell from his self-adoring photoset where he's coming from. 53 posts consisting of abs self-portraits and posts/quotes from others and 47,000 followers.



Last edited by Pot Hale on Mon 23 Mar 2020, 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by tigertattie on Mon 23 Mar 2020, 12:07 pm

I love the Italian Mayor who bursts out with "where the Smeg are you all going"

And as for the first fella, send in the police, with flame throwers. Love it. Fire kills the virus. May as well take out the spreaders at the same time.

My god could you imagine if Andy Burnham came out with a comment like that? He's be up in front of every snowflake in the country and forced to apologise for hurting their feelings.

Now I don’t want to sound all 21st schizoid so please, I assure you, I'm all for respecting your fellow human being, being mindful of their mental wellbeing and situation, but jeebus, respect works both ways. If you can’t respect the elderly population’s right to try and live as healthy a life as possible, then your feelings won’t be respected when me and the President of Campania kick in your door and turn on the napalm!
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Post by BigGee on Mon 23 Mar 2020, 5:54 pm

https://twitter.com/jimhamilton4/status/1242114552654893057

Here is another one for you Tattie on how they are dealing with people who are not complying with the lockdown in Italy!

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Post by tigertattie on Mon 23 Mar 2020, 9:06 pm

BigGee wrote:https://twitter.com/jimhamilton4/status/1242114552654893057

Here is another one for you Tattie on how they are dealing with people who are not complying with the lockdown in Italy!

Well that’s a least a yellow card!

Boy looks like he fully deserved it though.
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Post by Guest on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 8:51 am

BigGee wrote:https://twitter.com/jimhamilton4/status/1242114552654893057

Here is another one for you Tattie on how they are dealing with people who are not complying with the lockdown in Italy!

I'm fairly sure that is Brazil and actually a case of fake news.

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Post by BigGee on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 9:22 am

Just a bit of fun GP - you are right, could have been from anywhere!

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Post by 123456789. on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 11:01 pm

https://www.ft.com/content/5ff6469a-6dd8-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

A bit of glitter in the turd. I think it may be behind a paywall for most people. So, as far as I can understand, the theory is that actually the disease is more widespread than we have realised and more people than we thought expressed next to no symptoms. I am not an epidemiologist, or a scientist in any form, but it seems a tad overoptimistic to me.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 8:16 am

tigertattie wrote:
BigGee wrote:https://twitter.com/jimhamilton4/status/1242114552654893057

Here is another one for you Tattie on how they are dealing with people who are not complying with the lockdown in Italy!

Well that’s a least a yellow card!

Boy looks like he fully deserved it though.

I don't think this is Italy judging by the number plates, nor do I think it's coronavirus related. He deserved it though.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 10:48 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52029877

The heroic Home Guard of this particular crisis.

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 1:33 pm

I'm really hoping the government changes their attitude towards low paid workers as a result of the COVID-19 crisis.  Just a few weeks back amid the Brexit debate low paid workers were denigrated, in my opinion, by the government and treated as though they were not worthy of citizenship.  They were 'categorized' and made to feel unwanted, undervalued and some sort of problem for the government.  Oh the irony that these are the very workers upon whom we now rely to see us through this crisis.  I have students who work on the side/part-time as health care support workers.  Doing degrees to try to get themselves up the ladder a bit.  They're often not the most academic.  Often not the most aspirational.  But now they've 'come alive' and are throwing themselves in head first as part of the awesome front line response to this crisis.  Doing it all for low pay while putting themselves in harms way.  Makes me immensely proud of them.  clap    

After all this is done I feel the government needs to recognise these heroes in the same way as we recognise the brave soldiers who fought in the various world wars of the past.  Face masks and syringes in hand, rather than the gas masks and rifles the soldiers wore, but both ploughing head first into 'battle' in order to save everyone else.
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Post by BigGee on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 1:54 pm

I think what people who work in these services will want in the future is not medals, but a properly funded service and better pay, conditions and respect for the staff that work in them. There is nothing whatsoever wrong to work as a carer and yet if you do, it seems like you have failed in life. The fact that is almost impossible to make a living doing it does not help that perception.

Am I confident that this will happen under the current government?

I wish I was!

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Post by super_realist on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 1:56 pm

I'd forgotten how well respected and well paid carers were under Labour Rolling Eyes

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 2:40 pm

The Oracle wrote:I'm really hoping the government changes their attitude towards low paid workers as a result of the COVID-19 crisis.  Just a few weeks back amid the Brexit debate low paid workers were denigrated, in my opinion, by the government and treated as though they were not worthy of citizenship.  They were 'categorized' and made to feel unwanted, undervalued and some sort of problem for the government.  Oh the irony that these are the very workers upon whom we now rely to see us through this crisis.  I have students who work on the side/part-time as health care support workers.  Doing degrees to try to get themselves up the ladder a bit.  They're often not the most academic.  Often not the most aspirational.  But now they've 'come alive' and are throwing themselves in head first as part of the awesome front line response to this crisis.  Doing it all for low pay while putting themselves in harms way.  Makes me immensely proud of them.  clap    

After all this is done I feel the government needs to recognise these heroes in the same way as we recognise the brave soldiers who fought in the various world wars of the past.  Face masks and syringes in hand, rather than the gas masks and rifles the soldiers wore, but both ploughing head first into 'battle' in order to save everyone else.

Before the current religious leaders decided to claim that CV19 was an American plot there was a really quite touching letter from the Iranian president asking for sanctions on Iran to be lifted. One of the things he said was something like it is a war but all the soldiers are wearing the same uniform. We are all on the same side on this.

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 3:04 pm

Just to add to my post, as it’s been red barred so I’ve obviously offended some very easily offended people - my point was not to start a left v right, labour v conservative, democratic v republican argument or debate. I’m just saying that the government, ANY government, should recognise the work of these very skilled but low paid workers who we rely on so much during a crisis such as this. I was pointing out that it’s not the big contributors to society (financially), it’s not the bankers, it’s not the big corporations...... as someone alluded to in another post those people are near useless in a situation such as this. So hats off to those who can and do put themselves on the line for low pay and little reward or praise. I hope any government would recognise their efforts.
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Post by tigertattie on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 3:24 pm

here here oracle.

Here's my point. When the banks went erseovertit no recently retired bankers offered to come back to help clean up the mess.

When the health service here is struggling we've got recently retired healthcare professionals who quite frankly served their time already, stepping up to help out.

I’m not a communist. I'd not even say I was socialist. I just think people should be paid for the work that they do. Nurses work a damn sight harder than bankers (in my opinion) especially when you look at what they get paid in relation to their effort.

This isn’t to say that we should be giving handouts to the bone idle! fair pay for fair work.

However, getting the bankers to part with their money to disperse it around the nurses, warehouse workers, fruit pickers, etc aint such an easy thing to do as it is to say!
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Post by super_realist on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 3:28 pm

Retired bankers weren't asked to come back.
You have no idea if a nurse works harder than a banker. A nurses job might be a lot more unpleasant, but bankers work huge hours and under severe stress. You have to look at it from both sides and not just make silly judgements.

Do bankers make a lot more money? Yes, but most of them will work 10-12 hours a day.
I'm not defending bankers but to say they don't work hard is simply not true.

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Post by tigertattie on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 4:25 pm

Well I said in my opinion for starters. I also never said bankers don’t work hard, I said that nurses (in my opinion) work hard (especially in relation to the pay they get in reward for that work)

I'm an office monkey and I've done my share of 10 hour days but nurses do 12 hour shifts every day! not just when bonus time comes around. I've seen nurses pulling double shifts so that’s a 24 hour shift and that’s not entirely a rare occurrence. One poor doctor who filmed her breakdown when she went to the shops to find everything bought up had just done a 36 hour shift. I'd wager that even Fred Goodwin has never pulled a 36 hour shift before!
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Post by super_realist on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 4:55 pm

Nurses don't do 12 hour shifts every day. Don't talk nonsense. They get days off throughout that period.

Your nurse shouldn't be permitted to do 24 hours, let alone 36.
What sort of freak of a doctor would film someone having a breakdown?

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 5:28 pm

super_realist wrote:
What sort of freak of a doctor would film someone having a breakdown?

I think she was a nurse, but not sure, and she filmed herself not someone else after finishing a long shift and finding the shelves of her supermarket had been stripped bare. She put out a plaintive plea begging people to stop being selfish.

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Post by BigGee on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 6:53 pm

Nurses nor doctors don't do 24 hours anymore, but that does not necessarily make it any easier.

The system has moved away from on-call, when I first started nursing, junior doctors did their regular shifts and then went on call, which could in practice mean being up all night, or all weekend, before having to report back for work the next morning/on Monday. Nurses were never rostered like that, but the reality of making a living often meant early shifts, followed by a night, them back on a late shift the next day.

Clinical Governance and the European Working Time Directive, thankfully put an end to that and we have a universal shift system now and some regulation about what we are supposed to work.

That does not mean people don't work a lot of hours though and the shift patterns can be brutal and health care professionals, being conscientious are often there finishing stuff off after their shifts have officially finished, sometimes for hours (without pay).

People also work a lot of extra hours, for the mixture of reasons, making a living is undoubtedly a part of that but there is also a lot of pressure on people to come in and fill in gaps in the rosters that appear due to sickness and increasingly vacancies. We have all had the phone call at 06.30 asking us if we can come in that day and as you know it is your own colleagues who will be struggling that day, it is not easy to say no.

Most doctors and nurses will also attest to how much the pressure of work has ramped up over the years. A 12 hour shift is a full on affair these days. You regularly meet people on shift, middle of the afternoon who have not even had a drink since they started at 07.30 that morning.

I consider myself to be a fit healthy person who has been doing the job for 30 years now, yet if I do three 12 hour shifts back to back (something I try to avoid) I know I will feel like I have been in a game of rugby the next day. Throw night shifts into the equation and the toll they take on your sleep pattern as well. Because most roster pattern make allowances for peoples preferences, it is quite possible that you can finish a run of night shifts on Monday morning and be back on a day shift the Tuesday or Wednesday.

Areas like critical care and Emergency care pretty much need the same staffing levels on a 24 hour basis and so staff that work in them do as many night shifts as day shifts. It is very hard on the body I can tell you.

We choose to work in health care, I have done it for 30 years now and on the whole, the good has outweighed the bad and I have no regrets about my choice of career.

I can however understand how a nurse coming off a run of shifts and staring at the empty shelves in a supermarket, no doubt utterly exhausted, would feel the way she did and have trouble holding back the tears.

I think a lot of us are also feeling a little bit overwhelmed at how this has jumped out at us and we only see a long and hard road ahead for the foreseeable.

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Post by rozakthegoon on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 7:31 pm

The Oracle wrote:I'm really hoping the government changes their attitude towards low paid workers as a result of the COVID-19 crisis.  Just a few weeks back amid the Brexit debate low paid workers were denigrated, in my opinion, by the government and treated as though they were not worthy of citizenship.  They were 'categorized' and made to feel unwanted, undervalued and some sort of problem for the government.  Oh the irony that these are the very workers upon whom we now rely to see us through this crisis.  I have students who work on the side/part-time as health care support workers.  Doing degrees to try to get themselves up the ladder a bit.  They're often not the most academic.  Often not the most aspirational.  But now they've 'come alive' and are throwing themselves in head first as part of the awesome front line response to this crisis.  Doing it all for low pay while putting themselves in harms way.  Makes me immensely proud of them.  clap    

After all this is done I feel the government needs to recognise these heroes in the same way as we recognise the brave soldiers who fought in the various world wars of the past.  Face masks and syringes in hand, rather than the gas masks and rifles the soldiers wore, but both ploughing head first into 'battle' in order to save everyone else.

Great post Smile totally agree mate

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Post by rozakthegoon on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 7:34 pm

BigGee wrote:I think what people who work in these services will want in the future is not medals, but a properly funded service and better pay, conditions and respect for the staff that work in them. There is nothing whatsoever wrong to work as a carer and yet if you do, it seems like you have failed in life. The fact that is almost impossible to make a living doing it does not help that perception.

Am I confident that this will happen under the current government?

I wish I was!

Fully agree wtih this too. Ive been a long time reader-not-talker on this forum. Really pleased to see this community space used to discuss stuff like this. Im helping with some of the south Birmingham response work, and its def a lot of those seen as "low value" who are doing the most impactful and heartfelt work to support our communities

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 8:03 pm

Great to hear Rozakthegoon. Thank you. Keep up the good work!
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Post by Pot Hale on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 8:59 pm

An update from the smaller island.

A further 4 deaths reported today on the island bringing the total to 16 (9+7) so far.

In the Republic, testing is being ramped up further but with a tighter focus on those likely to be very ill/hospitalised. The testing case definition has been changed so that people will now need to have two markers of the virus before being tested e.g. fever and a cough. This will reduce considerably the number of 'worried well' on the current Due for Test list. But it will ramp up the number of confirmed cases 1,564 substantially. Testing has only had a 6% discovery rate - the change will likely see this rise to 20% or more with the narrowed case definition.

We are now on the slopes of the expected surge to the peak that will emerge in the next 2 weeks. Hopefully, with the preparations that have been made for prevention, and increasing the hospital bed and ICU facilities, the system will hold. 305 beds are now occupied, and more critically ICU occupancy has risen rapidly in the last week. With the HSE taking over the private hospital system from today, public resources and facilities have increased with capacity effectively doubled since the outset.

So far public compliance with restrictions seems to be taking hold with most shops/outlets closed bar those on the essential list. Maximum customer numbers and queue spacing being observed in most places. Went out for a cycle in the afternoon - a few people about but not nearly as many as at the weekend despite good weather and sunshine. My local council fenced off the public green and sea walk so nobody could use it - smart move. Contact tracing on confirmed cases has dropped substantially from 20 additional people to just 5 nationally from the positive effect of distancing and restrictions.

Taoiseach said today that the worst case prediction of 15,000 cases by end of March would now not happen with the distancing and restriction measures taking effect. Current total is now 1,564 confirmed cases. Daily rate case confirmation is c. 200 currently. This will likely double and possibly treble before end of the week with much greater numbers occupying hospital and ICU beds.

Here's hoping it works.
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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 9:48 pm

Utterly disgraceful imo that Royals jump the queue for testing ahead of so many who need and deserve it much more.

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Post by 123456789. on Thu 26 Mar 2020, 12:39 am

I'm not sure it's as simple as Prince Charles not being in the category of the people who "need and deserve" testing. He is a 71 year old man who could fall very ill. He has very elderly parents. The fact is that all people in his position should be tested. With any luck these antibody tests will be with us and effective in the near future, that should enable us to engage in proper testing and figure how widespread the disease truly is. If, in the best case scenario, the Oxford professor is right in saying around 50% of the country have it and the majority are overwhelmingly symptomless we will not be far off the rate of general immunity needed for the infection rate to drop off rapidly. Anyway, if Boris Johnson says we'll get them, then I'm sure we'll get them, he never lies.

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Post by super_realist on Thu 26 Mar 2020, 7:46 am

guildfordbat wrote:Utterly disgraceful imo that Royals jump the queue for testing ahead of so many who need and deserve it much more.

It's not the issue that he got the test, but that he travelled to Scotland when under explicit instructions not to do so. Now he has exposed all his bum wipers, toothbrush valets and everyone else in Balmoral to the virus. Absolute buffoon, but he never was very bright.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu 26 Mar 2020, 8:42 am

super_realist wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Utterly disgraceful imo that Royals jump the queue for testing ahead of so many who need and deserve it much more.

It's not the issue that he got the test, but that he travelled to Scotland when under explicit instructions not to do so. Now he has exposed all his bum wipers, toothbrush valets and everyone else in Balmoral to the virus. Absolute buffoon, but he never was very bright.

Do you actually know that? From what I have read, he went there because it is one of the smallest "royal" properties with a low staffing level. PC has isolated himself and is obeying all the protocols with regard to distancing etc. I am not aware of any decree that says that if you are infected you cannot travel to a place of isolation, especially if you can do it without risk to others. He has not gone walkabout in the highlands, he is not likely to take up an NHS bed if he becomes seriously ill, he is isolated in a small cottage on the estate away from the main members of staff. It is more sensible than being at Buck Palace, or Highgrove where it would be a lot more difficult to isolate. As someone else said, he is in the group that are most at risk as his his wife. Are you saying that the elderly should not be tested until it becomes bad, by which time it might be too late.


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Post by super_realist on Thu 26 Mar 2020, 8:52 am

For a start everyone is told to stay where they are, Scottish Highlands have told people not to travel to the area because of the strain it puts on existing services.

It doesn't have to be about him, it's about the people he is coming into contact with and the knock on effects.
Which new staff is he coming into contact with at Balmoral that he wouldn't have if he stayed put? What people did he interact with on his transport up to Balmoral?

Even if he isn't coming into contact, what sort of example is he setting by flouting the advice and travelling?

How would it be any less difficult to self isolate in Buckingham Palace or Highgrove? They're hardly 2 up, 2 downs are they? If anything they're even bigger.

I didn't mention whether he should get a test at all. I genuinely couldn't care because if you have symptoms, and especially "mild symptoms" then you should simply stay put immediately. There's nothing to be gained at this stage by knowing if you have it or not. Any symptoms should be treated as if you have it.

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Post by 123456789. on Thu 26 Mar 2020, 12:26 pm

I think the nub of the argument is that the royals shouldn't be treated any differently, which sort of defeats the purpose.
You can have a perfectly legitimate conversation about the merits or relevance of a monarchy in the 21st century. However, this outrage that Prince Charles has things different to other people seems a tad late.
On the testing side of things, the more testing we do then the more we know, it's that simple. The more we know the easier it will be to counter this.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 9:53 am

Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro on Thursday exempted churches from coronavirus lockdowns by classifying religious activity as an essential service.

Trump has some serious competition

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 11:21 am

BoJo tests positive for Cornavirus, Rabb to take over?

Boris has only got mild symptoms.

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Post by jimbopip on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 11:54 am

All MacDonald's closed down...Boris The Muppet stricken down.

It's not all bad news then.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 11:56 am

jimbopip wrote:All MacDonald's closed down...Boris The Muppet stricken down.

It's not all bad news then.

Stay classy.

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Post by beninho on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 1:07 pm

No one can ever be happy that Mr Johnson gets it, because that opens up Raab taking charge. And he is a massive twot.

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Post by jimbopip on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 1:14 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
jimbopip wrote:All MacDonald's closed down...Boris The Muppet stricken down.

It's not all bad news then.

Stay classy.

Stay? Shocked

You must be confusing me with some other devilishly handsome Scotsman, shurely.

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Post by BlueCoverman on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 1:17 pm

If we can't shield PM, Health Secretary and heir to the throne from it, what hope for us mere mortals?

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Post by Samo on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 1:32 pm

Atleast he's got his £94 to fall back on.

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Post by 123456789. on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 2:13 pm

Apparently if Boris gets worse or even expires it's Dominic Raab who steps up to the plate. I know that's based on an established order of precedence. However one cannot help but feel they've chosen a man with the mental faculty of a comatose goldfish so we don't remember what it's like to have a vaguely competent leader. It's hard to envisage that if we were afforded a taste of Rishi Sunak or Julian Smith or even Jo Johnson that anybody would want that lecherous creep back in charge. It's a tad depressing that this crisis has come with the current stock in charge. Despite what people think, Britain has been a generally well governed country for most of the last wee while.  Say what you like about Cameron, Clegg, Osborne, Brown, Blair, Major, Heseltine etc. but they were all competent, intelligent leaders. Priti Patel and Dominic Raab against coronavirus is the equivalent of a spud gun against an atom bomb.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 2:19 pm

beninho wrote:No one can ever be happy that Mr Johnson gets it, because that opens up Raab taking charge. And he is a massive twot.
Crisis averted then? He's got it too.
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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 2:30 pm

123456789. wrote:Apparently if Boris gets worse or even expires it's Dominic Raab who steps up to the plate. I know that's based on an established order of precedence. However one cannot help but feel they've chosen a man with the mental faculty of a comatose goldfish so we don't remember what it's like to have a vaguely competent leader. It's hard to envisage that if we were afforded a taste of Rishi Sunak or Julian Smith or even Jo Johnson that anybody would want that lecherous creep back in charge. It's a tad depressing that this crisis has come with the current stock in charge. Despite what people think, Britain has been a generally well governed country for most of the last wee while.  Say what you like about Cameron, Clegg, Osborne, Brown, Blair, Major, Heseltine etc. but they were all competent, intelligent leaders. Priti Patel and Dominic Raab against coronavirus is the equivalent of a spud gun against an atom bomb.

With the exception of Thatcher who would have a better understanding of the science behind it than any other politician i'm pleased that we Johnson as PM as opposed to someone with no personality. Boris comes across as caring far more than Cameron, Blair and Major ever did.

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Post by BamBam on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 2:39 pm

I often wonder how Soul manages to post with such eloquence while his tongue is inserted that far up Johnson's rectum

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 2:49 pm

BamBam wrote:I often wonder how Soul manages to post with such eloquence while his tongue is inserted that far up Johnson's rectum

Must I agree with you then or am I free to have my own opinion? The handling of this has been far from perfect but that's unfortunately true of most major economies. However contrary to that and this must seem alien to you inside your anti Tory bubble but he does have a lot of support in this country. Suggestions that Michael Heseltine could have handled this better are absurd, he has and never had any ability to come across as caring about anyone other than himself.

I severely doubt we'd be seeing any level of employee protection with Osborne as chancellor right now.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 2:57 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
123456789. wrote:Apparently if Boris gets worse or even expires it's Dominic Raab who steps up to the plate. I know that's based on an established order of precedence. However one cannot help but feel they've chosen a man with the mental faculty of a comatose goldfish so we don't remember what it's like to have a vaguely competent leader. It's hard to envisage that if we were afforded a taste of Rishi Sunak or Julian Smith or even Jo Johnson that anybody would want that lecherous creep back in charge. It's a tad depressing that this crisis has come with the current stock in charge. Despite what people think, Britain has been a generally well governed country for most of the last wee while.  Say what you like about Cameron, Clegg, Osborne, Brown, Blair, Major, Heseltine etc. but they were all competent, intelligent leaders. Priti Patel and Dominic Raab against coronavirus is the equivalent of a spud gun against an atom bomb.

With the exception of Thatcher who would have a better understanding of the science behind it than any other politician i'm pleased that we Johnson as PM as opposed to someone with no personality. Boris comes across as caring far more than Cameron, Blair and Major ever did.

BoJo has the honor of being my MP, he comes across as what ever his audience wants him to be (except competent), he was the forerunner of populism, even before Trump when he was Mayor of London. He happily lies through his teeth to suit his needs, remember the £365M per week we would save on Brexit, the 25,000 new nurses and however many policemen he was going to bring into service. He is clever, but in a classical way not an effective intelligent way that gets things done. That can be seen by his choice of cabinet, sycophants the lot of them, he would not be able to argue a case against anyone with a backbone and intelligence.

Give me competence over personality any day.

"Must I agree with you then or am I free to have my own opinion? The handling of this has been far from perfect but that's unfortunately true of most major economies. However contrary to that and this must seem alien to you inside your anti Tory bubble but he does have a lot of support in this country. Suggestions that Michael Heseltine could have handled this better are absurd, Johnson, he has and never had any ability to come across as caring about anyone other than himself."

Corrected your statement Soul. Has anyone ever explained BoJo's wealth, he is worth multi millions, but has never held a job that would pay even a tenth of that. In my opinion he is to China what Trump is to Russia, he was too closely tied to deals with Chinese funded developers like at Battersea, all the safeguards were removed under his Mayorship, the vast majority of low cost housing went, the definition of "low cost" housing was raised so that in London, £400k was considered to be low cost. All to allow his developer friends, mostly Chinese to increase their profits and all in a time of rising property prices


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Post by 123456789. on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 3:12 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
123456789. wrote:Apparently if Boris gets worse or even expires it's Dominic Raab who steps up to the plate. I know that's based on an established order of precedence. However one cannot help but feel they've chosen a man with the mental faculty of a comatose goldfish so we don't remember what it's like to have a vaguely competent leader. It's hard to envisage that if we were afforded a taste of Rishi Sunak or Julian Smith or even Jo Johnson that anybody would want that lecherous creep back in charge. It's a tad depressing that this crisis has come with the current stock in charge. Despite what people think, Britain has been a generally well governed country for most of the last wee while.  Say what you like about Cameron, Clegg, Osborne, Brown, Blair, Major, Heseltine etc. but they were all competent, intelligent leaders. Priti Patel and Dominic Raab against coronavirus is the equivalent of a spud gun against an atom bomb.

With the exception of Thatcher who would have a better understanding of the science behind it than any other politician i'm pleased that we Johnson as PM as opposed to someone with no personality. Boris comes across as caring far more than Cameron, Blair and Major ever did.

Boris Johnson cares for himself, and only himself. He has cheated on every woman that has ever loved him. When his daughter graduated in June 2016 he unveiled a 'Vote Leave' poster at her Graduation ceremony. He has a fair few children he has never recognised. If he doesn't care about his family, then I can't imagine he cares for the people in the country generally speaking.
In terms of his career. He has been sacked twice for lying. Described black people as 'piccaninnies'. Described gay people as 'tank-top bumboys'. Advised that men pat women on the bottom and 'send them on their way' at work. When London was in chaos with the riots he refused to cut short his holiday. He shafted Theresa May for her deal and then produced a worse one himself, almost if the deal did not matter as much as getting her out of a job.
You may agree with a lot of his politics. I've agreed with plenty of what he has said in the past (“I am not by any means an ultra-Eurosceptic. In some ways, I am a bit of a fan of the European Union. If we did not have one, we would invent something like it”), I imagine his politics overlaps rather a large amount with mine in places. Never, ever make the mistake of believing him to be a caring or decent man. He is not. David Cameron, Tony Blair and John Major were decent men who cared deeply for their country. They made mistakes as all people do. Gordon Brown's 'lack of personality' did not stop him from leading the global recovery from the recession. In terms of caring, Gordon Brown recently provided beds to people on low incomes within his own community. Boris Johnson has not even provided beds for all of his children (and rarely stayed in his own). As I've said many times, I hope he succeeds in fighting Coronavirus, because we will all benefit. However, if you're glad the man who squandered the time we had to prepare for this crisis I do wonder what he'd have to do for you to want someone else involved.

If ever you feel tempted to see some degree of morality in our Prime Minister then it's worth considering a passage from his novel based upon a chubby, blonde, eccentric MP (sound familiar): “To a man like Roger Barlow, the whole world just seemed to be a complicated joke … everything was always up for grabs, capable of dispute; and religion, laws, principle, custom – these were nothing but sticks from the wayside to support our faltering steps.”


I will also have to go into bat for Michael Heseltine here. Michael Heseltine is one of the most decent, able and honourable politicians to serve in the last half-century. Michael Heseltine was considered by Thatcher to be her natural successor prior to his resignation. He resigned nonetheless, probably stifling his political career in the process. Michael Heseltine helped to turn the fortunes of the people of Merseyside and the London Dockyards by dedicating his life to their improvement. Liverpool is broadly socialist, yet they awarded Michael Heseltine, a Tory, the freedom of the city. He rebelled against his party's whip to vote in favour of a law outlawing racial discrimination back in the 1960s, it was not in his political interest to do so. When vast swathes of the Conservative party was in thrall to Enoch Powell's bile, Michael Heseltine stood at the Tory party conference and denounced him, speaking passionately in favour of ethnic minorities. Johnson and Heseltine have openly admitted that they agree on much, and I agree with much of what they agree on. However, Heseltine carries his politics with a sense of morality, integrity and honesty that Johnson could never, ever muster nor has ever shown any sense of wanting to.

You are more than free to have your own opinion, and I actually thoroughly enjoy the discussions however I can't see how on earth you come to many of your conclusions.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 27 Mar 2020, 3:23 pm

I suppose you know him personally then and not just basing that all on media perception, that post was good for a laugh as was the one preceding it. There seems an inability on here to realise that there are people out there who hold different opinions.

I consider Heseltine to be the biggest snake in politics and it was poetic justice when the party overlooked him in favour of Major. Thatcher did indeed consider him to be her natural successor that was however before he stabbed her in the back.

I have in my time campaigned alongside a multitude of Conservative Mps his brother Jo among them as well as attending most party conferences and media perceptions are often far from the actual truth. The personal lives of people is of little consequence to me and their actions when under pressure are what really matters and it's easy to highlight mistakes in hindsight.

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