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Joshua doesn't deserve 50/50 with Fury.....

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Joshua doesn't deserve 50/50 with Fury..... Empty Joshua doesn't deserve 50/50 with Fury.....

Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 12:25 pm

Portfolio that has an unbeaten for ten years Wlad....The divisions former number 2 in Wilder (twice)....Lineal title and an unbeaten record suggests to me that Tyson Fury deserves the lion share of money against Anthony Joshua....

Losing to the David Bey impersonator in Ruiz....In trouble against a "1980s Wimpy Halstead" in Povetkin and beating a sloppy second Wlad from behind also suggests Joshua is overrated...I'd give Whyte a 4/10 chance of beating him these days and who thinks Whyte would bother Fury ???....

The treatment of Whyte in fairness to him is shameful....Dillian has more than deserved a crack......Chisora twice is enough 'these' days for a shot without Parker and Browne..

Fury is so far the number 1 in the division that it pains to see Hearn going on about this and that....

Fury's team should set the detail or tell Hearn to ship out...

Without Fury, Joshua is Francesco Damiani while Mike Tyson was Champion..

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 12:32 pm

I'd take Povetkin over Wilder any day myself.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 12:39 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:I'd take Povetkin over Wilder any day myself.

Fair enough its all about opinions even if 'Consensus' is on my side of the argument...

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 12:42 pm

The consensus of American opinion? Povetkin has a far stronger record than Wilder and a better boxer on top of that.

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Post by Mr Bounce on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 5:23 pm

Styles make fights. Let's not forget that Joshua had trained for Miller who then failed every drug test going, and the last minute replacement was Ruiz, who Joshua massively underestimated. Fact was, he was going for the KO against Fat Andy having knocked him down and he got careless. No excuses - he got it wrong and paid the price. Unsurprisingly he stuck to a specific game plan in the rematch to easily regain the titles.

Whichever way you spin it, Joshua can be viewed as a good, not great fighter, but the same goes for Fury. To view Joshua as a Damiani to Fury's Tyson is laughable and a disservice to AJ. Truss we all know you think the 80s was the most amazing thing ever, but I would rate the 70s as a better class of heavies, as at least they weren't chugging vast amounts of Charlie (Neon Leon aside).

Wlad and Wilder aside, Fury has fought how many top-rated heavies? Take away Chisora and his record looks more like a padded record from an up and coming novice. He pretty much ducked David Price FFS. If you're so great, you don't get floored by the likes of Neven Pajkic or Steve Cunningham, however early in your career it may be. At least he didn't floor himself with that uppercut...

I think you're a bit off with your remarks Truss. Both have their faults. AJ appears robotic and struggles to adjust, but when focussed is a pretty dangerous opponent. Fury is a divisive character at best, has a poor record overall and a bit of a poor chin but rises to the biggest tasks when he is under pressure.

Wilder avoided Povetkin like the plague. I don't think Wilder was scared of him, but his team probably realised he had a) a pulse and b) some decent boxing ability and passed him over as often as they could. Wilder and his team DEFINITELY avoided Whyte.

I think that 50/50 is perfectly fair for both parties. This fight (if it ever comes off) will generate vast sums of money so it won't exactly be pennies. Both will be set for life on a fraction of what they'll take home. I reckon both fighters will be happy with an equal split.

Expect Wilder to be embarrassed by Fury for a second time and Joshua to make a statement against the undeserving Pulev, setting up a 4-belt super match-up. May the better man win.

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Post by 88Chris05 on Mon 01 Jun 2020, 6:18 pm

Good post by Mr Bounce above.

I agree with your initial point that Fury by rights probably deserves the marginally bigger share, Truss, but overall I don't think 50:50 is unreasonable. The 'lineal' thing might matter to us hardcore fans, but this would be easily the biggest fight on UK shores in decades and is going to be pitched to the wider audience, who likely won't care that Fury's belts are more significant, harder won etc. - they'll just see that Joshua has more of them, which is already the angle Hearn and Matchroom are trying to play.

If the fight had only just become mooted or they had both become genuine star names at the same time, then I'd be more inclined to agree that Fury should definitely hold out for a bigger share of the spoils given the momentum he has right now. But the fight has been one which has been talked about for a few years now, and for most of that period Joshua has been the bigger, more recognised name. It's only this last year or so that Fury has really transcended into proper 'household name' territory - compare the relatively minor waves his win over Wladimir made to the way he's been plastered all over the mainstream media since beating Wilder.

Yes, Joshua was reared from the off to be the crossover star and cash cow, but he's kept his end of the bargain with a lot of exemplary performances, particularly during the years of 2015-2018 when Fury was out of the ring. Fans always hoped that they'd see Fury against Joshua one day, and during that long run Joshua did a lot more to 'sell' the fight and make it such an enticing prospect. The hiccup against Ruiz and Fury's comeback have obviously put the shoe on the other foot a little bit for the time being, but not enough to completely undo what went before.

If anyone deserves that slightly bigger split, then right now yes it's probably Fury - and having taken short money against Wlad and Wilder first time out, he might well think it's about time he started getting the lion's share for his defining fights - but if he's offered a split down the middle I'd like to think common sense would prevail for the sake of getting the fight done quickly, hopefully Spring or Summer 2021. He's going to make more money splitting the purse equally with Joshua than he's going to make for a 80:20 in his favour against the Whytes or Parkers of this world.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 02 Jun 2020, 9:21 am

Not really sure why you think I would disagree that 70s Heavies were better...Best era ever.

But not in the lower divisions.....

80s Heavies were technically very good and the slobs could go 15 at a decent pace.. Tubbs v Witherspoon...Tubbs v Page.....Weaver v Dokes in 100 degree heat...

You guys are too easy on Joshua for losing to Ruiz...So what if he had only a month to prepare....Novice Heavies fight every month and often get late replacements....Ruiz managed to lose to the dreadful Parker that Whyte (A trialhorse in the 80s) beat and no doubt Chisora would have too who is even worse.

Top Heavies beat one dimensional stiffs.....

You like Anthony and why not but don't give him any excuse for Ruiz....A fight he basically quit in.....Top Heavies don't quit either.




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Post by Mr Bounce on Tue 02 Jun 2020, 1:22 pm

We're clearly not going to agree on this but I have no problems with your ideas. And if you read my post again I do say that he got it wrong and paid the price for being careless. I cut him no slack - he could have walked away a very rich man, but he came back to right the wrong. It wasn't explosive but it was calculated. Lewis isn't slagged off for his 2 losses that much even though he was complacent in both.
Let's remember he rematched McCall and Rahman and won both. Ali gets a pass for losing to Spinks because he's Ali. Time makes the heart grow fonder.

I just think you're too harsh on Joshua without taking into account Fury's many failings. I simply don't believe that he's as good as he is made out to be. Yes, he took the fight to Wilder and beat him, but it took 12 rounds for him to figure out how to do it. After his almost miraculous recovery in rd 12 he took the fight back to Wilder and realised he could not fight on the back foot. He said this in interview. Let's not forget that 3 seconds was probably the difference between the draw and a loss.

Are you going to give Wilder the same treatment as Joshua? A man so utterly clueless in the 2nd fight that he was knocked down twice, barely hit his opponent and was pulled out by his own corner? If anyone deserves your derision it's him. Does he get a pass because of his nationality?

You are a knowledgeable and likeable poster Truss, and I respect and agree with a lot of what you say. In this instance though, I think your opinion is misplaced. It's a bias. We all have our favourites. I couldn't stand De La Hoya when he was fighting but I recognised his class. Same with Canelo nowadays (although I also brand him a cheat). Just because I don't like someone doesn't mean I don't think they're good. In this instance though I think Fury is flattered by the press. Don't forget that you yourself branded his fight with Wlad as one of the worst in HW history. At least AJ's fight with him was exciting!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 02 Jun 2020, 1:32 pm

My opinion isn't worth diddly but I happily dish it out.....I don't particularly rate Fury and I don't rate Wilder...

But Wlad and Wilder were one and two in the division........Joshua hasn't beaten anybody that hasn't been sloppy seconds or downright ordinary.....Before the cut Povetkin had him in trouble and he stunk against Takam and Parker....

I am biased we all are whether unconsciously or consciously like me.....But Ruiz should be beaten by any decent champion on their worst night......Like Tyson....Page.....Witherspoon beat Quick Tillis when they had better things to do....

I don't mind you disagreeing with me and welcome your opinion......But when a guy beats the ten year unbeaten champ and wipes out the arguable number 1 in the division a little later........For me he deserves the lion share of the pot..

Joshua is succesful in a lean era.........But he's succesful and good luck to him....

Don't rate him.........Struggles with anything decent......Wlad was a hail Mary.....Povetkin's cut disheartened and disabled him.

All about opinions..

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Post by No name Bertie on Wed 03 Jun 2020, 3:40 pm

I was impressed with Joshua's stamina in the Ruiz II fight, and I thought his movement was better. He did seem a bit vulnerable and I am not sure how solid he is to head shots - he seems to have a vulnerability to being hit behind the ear and then going wobbly (Whyte, Ruiz I).

Joshua did infer he had an undiagnosed medical condition that affected his stamina in previous fights and that this was diagnosed and remedied prior to the Ruiz II fight.

Of course Ruiz was a shadow of what he was in the first fight and he has since admitted he was out most of the time partying. He fired his trainer Manny Robles - who was very upset with Ruiz - he said he couldn't get Ruiz to do the proper training needed for the second fight because Ruiz was doing his own thing.

With Tyson Fury, I was shocked he took the first fight with Deontay Wilder because he was so out of condition. In the second fight I was shocked how he sort of took Wilder apart. Deontay Wilder was and perhaps still is very dangerous - it is generally accepted he has freakish punch power - equivalent to a heavyweight version of Thomas Hearns.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 03 Jun 2020, 4:20 pm

Joshua v Wilder would be more interesting than Fury v Wilder 3....Povetkin...Whyte....Ruiz and Wlad have all found AJ's chin and while he is a better technician than Deontay one would summise that he'd find Joshua much less elusive than Fury.

Think I'd go for Wilder.


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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 03 Jun 2020, 4:32 pm

There's a surprise.

Wilder has no defence so the more technically capable AJ would decimate him in a few rounds, if Fury was dropping him then his chin isn't up to much and his much vaunted power is based on beating a bunch of journeyman.

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Post by Mr Bounce on Wed 03 Jun 2020, 4:57 pm

Joshua is a better boxer than many give him credit for. He's no way as slick as Fury though. That said he would also, in my opinion, take Wilder to the cleaners. Wilder's hope is a wild, swinging punch that AJ wouldn't see. I think the more safety first AJ following his Ruiz loss would have no problem avoiding the humdingers.

Also, whilst the other 3 stunned him or knocked him down, Povetkin barely made a dent.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 03 Jun 2020, 6:12 pm

Wlad put Joshua on his back and found him regularly........Wlad couldn't lay a hand on Fury......Stiffs like Povetkin and Whyte found AJ too...

Wilder decked Fury twice who is defensively better than Joshua..

Joshua went 12 with Ruiz...Parker and couldn't get rid of Takam without the ref's help......So I imagine Wilder will have plenty of time to find Joshua who is a bigger Bruno without the jab....Joshua has found it difficult stopping people of late legitimately.....Povetkin's cut changed the dynamics of that one..

Ortiz is a better boxer than Joshua and he got found twice.....To be so confident Joshua takes Wilder to the cleaners is frankly delusional and you probably know it..

Maybe a love of Joshua is clouding an otherwise solid knowledge of the square circle..

But we all have our soft spots I suppose..

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 03 Jun 2020, 6:31 pm

Or perhaps Wilders nationality is clouding yours, I know which I consider more likely.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 03 Jun 2020, 6:53 pm

You should try to be more consistent Soul....You seem sure a Hamed bomb will find the chin of an excellent technician in Lomochenko and yet the thought of Wilder (who found Fury and Ortiz chin) finding the chin of the more defensively sloppy Joshua is out of the question it seems...


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Post by 88Chris05 on Wed 03 Jun 2020, 7:12 pm

I think Joshua-Wilder is a pick 'em (or at least I did - will wait and see how Wilder looks on the comeback trail after that hammering he got off Fury). At the end of the day it's two big hitters with occasionally leaky defences and chins which, while not glass, aren't tungsten either.

Up until about 2017 / 2018 I'd have gone with Joshua outright, but even before the Ruiz loss I think there were a couple of small signs that Joshua had plateaued a bit. It's a risk, but I wonder whether it might be time to part company with McCracken. He's done a very good job by Joshua, but it looks to me as if his team have been trying to alter Joshua's game a bit and mould him into more of a Lennox or Wlad clone. Personally I don't think he looked all that great against Povetkin (minus the finish) or Parker and I'd prefer him to go back to his old, instinctive style and start looking to overpower and dominate guys from the off.

Yeah, I know he easily outboxed Ruiz in the rematch using that lower-risk approach, but Ruiz's performance, just like his training beforehand, was very poor. Question is, after the disaster of the first Ruiz fight, will he ever have the confidence to try and be that menacing wrecking ball against a really dangerous opponent again? Remains to be seen.

Be interesting to see what Wilder does next. I'm not sure if there's a time limit to triggering the clause for a third fight with Fury - there often is with those kind of contracts, and the waters have been muddied even further by Covid 19, but from the little bits I've seen or heard it looks as if Wilder's proclamations of wanting that third fight have been quite half-hearted. If, as we all expect, negotiations between Fury and Joshua end up being protracted and drag on, will Wilder take the risk and agitate for a fight against Joshua?

Might be his best chance of getting his hands on some world titles (for whatever they're worth to him now) again for the foreseeable future. Rumours are that Joshua is going to vacate the WBO belt soon, but it looks as if Usyk and Parker are being manoeuvred towards each other to fight for the vacant title if that happens.
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Post by No name Bertie on Thu 04 Jun 2020, 11:32 am

It has been said that Deontay Wilder skill levels have been underestimated - he is generally been able to eventually manoeuver himself into landing that unseen knockout punch.  Teddy Atlas has talked about that.  But sometimes Deontay employs an array of slaps, back of the head punches, and a few proper punches in wild attacks - there were several of those in his fights against Ortiz.  Against Fury in the second fight despite the blood from his ear and mouth he looked worse than he actually was.  The blood from the ear was from a cut (apparently) to the inside of the ear rather than a busted ear drum.  In that second fight Deontay seemed more confused as to what to do and he later complained of feeling tired.       He was angry that the fight was stopped by his trainer because in his mind he was still thinking he could somehow land that shot.

With Tyson Fury going to the Kronk gym that showed there was a large room for improvement within him.    The people at the Kronk said they could only work on the rudiments of what they teach having only about 8 weeks with him in order to get more power into his shots. What impressed them about Fury was his movement - which they say is more like a middleweight than a heavyweight.   Teddy Atlas compared him to Muhammad Ali - for his movement and his ring IQ. The main issue with Fury has been his motivation. He is still saying he intends to leave boxing after about two more fights.

With Anthony Joshua he seems like a work in progress.  His stamina always seemed to be an issue.  When he was knocked down by Klitschko I couldn't see anyway for Joshua to come back, but surprisingly he managed to find some energy from somewhere to survive and then to knock Klitschko out.   Klitschko himself doesn't know how he lost that fight - he thought it was in his hands.

Following that fight Joshua maybe stagnated a bit and his loss to Ruiz brought back the issue of him having a vulnerability to a behind the ear punch.  But then following Joshua's rematch victory and him bouncing around on his feet with a "stick and move" type tactic for twelve rounds, Joshua's stamina issues seems to have been resolved.


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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 04 Jun 2020, 11:35 am

No name Bertie wrote:
With Tyson Fury going to the Kronk gym that showed there were large room for improvement.    The people at the Kronk said they could only work on the rudiments of what they teach having only about 8 weeks with him in order to get more power into his shots. What impressed them about Fury was his movement - which they say is more like a middleweight than a heavyweight.   Teddy Atlas compared him to Muhammad Ali - for his movement and his ring IQ.


This level of hyperbole is maddening when it comes to Fury, he moves well for a big man no doubt but that's all it is, he doesn't move like a Middleweight and he certainly does not have the movement of pre exile Ali.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 04 Jun 2020, 12:03 pm

No name Bertie wrote:It has been said that Deontay Wilder skill levels have been underestimated - he is generally been able to eventually manoeuver himself into landing that unseen knockout punch.  Teddy Atlas has talked about that.  But sometimes Deontay employs an array of slaps, back of the head punches, and a few proper punches in wild attacks - there were several of those in his fights against Ortiz.  Against Fury in the second fight despite the blood from his ear and mouth he looked worse than he actually was.  The blood from the ear was from a cut (apparently) to the inside of the ear rather than a busted ear drum.  In that second fight Deontay seemed more confused as to what to do and he later complained of feeling tired.       He was angry that the fight was stopped by his trainer because in his mind he was still thinking he could somehow land that shot.

With Tyson Fury going to the Kronk gym that showed there was a large room for improvement within him.    The people at the Kronk said they could only work on the rudiments of what they teach having only about 8 weeks with him in order to get more power into his shots. What impressed them about Fury was his movement - which they say is more like a middleweight than a heavyweight.   Teddy Atlas compared him to Muhammad Ali - for his movement and his ring IQ.   The main issue with Fury has been his motivation.  He is still saying he intends to leave boxing after about two more fights.

With Anthony Joshua he seems like a work in progress.  His stamina always seemed to be an issue.  When he was knocked down by Klitschko I couldn't see anyway for Joshua to come back, but surprisingly he managed to find some energy from somewhere to survive and then to knock Klitschko out.   Klitschko himself doesn't know how he lost that fight - he thought it was in his hands.

Following that fight Joshua maybe stagnated a bit and his loss to Ruiz brought back the issue of him having a vulnerability to a behind the ear punch.  But then following Joshua's rematch victory and him bouncing around on his feet with a "stick and move" type tactic for twelve rounds, Joshua's stamina issues seems to have been resolved.

He's certainly turned being lucky into a skill it seems...If you listen to some people..

But like Napoleon said "I don't want a good General I want a lucky one"

Against slow..predictable...and at times sloppy fare in AJ the chances of being 'lucky' go up considerably..

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 11 Jun 2020, 4:37 pm

Two fight deal....50/50 first fight....60/40 second for the winner..

Over generous from team Fury perhaps but as I see him winning comfortably probably not too bad.

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Post by skiddy on Thu 11 Jun 2020, 6:04 pm

This fight should be boycotted.
A drugs cheat involved, brokered by a mafia like figure, in a horrific destination to boot.
Waste of time.
Why does everybody in boxing pretend Fury isn't a drugs cheat and is a legitimate athlete?

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Post by Derbymanc on Thu 11 Jun 2020, 6:06 pm

Whilst don't see a problem with what you've put Truss, unfortunately boxing is still a money business and as it stands at the minute, Joshua brings more money to the table, don't see why every fight can't be 35/35 split with the remaining 30 going to the winner or something like that.

Also like your 2 fight idea as well

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Post by Derbymanc on Thu 11 Jun 2020, 6:07 pm

Cause as with any other sport, he's served his ban and is therfore allowed to compete again, would have no problem with every sport banning drugs cheats for life but whilst there's money involved it's never gonna happen

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 11 Jun 2020, 6:36 pm

Nice to hear from you Derby....Hope you are well...

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 11 Jun 2020, 6:43 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Cause as with any other sport, he's served his ban and is therfore allowed to compete again, would have no problem with every sport banning drugs cheats for life but whilst there's money involved it's never gonna happen

You don't punch people in the face in other sports.

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Post by kingraf on Fri 12 Jun 2020, 9:45 am

skiddy wrote:This fight should be boycotted.
A drugs cheat involved, brokered by a mafia like figure, in a horrific destination to boot.
Waste of time.
Why does everybody in boxing pretend Fury isn't a drugs cheat and is a legitimate athlete?

It's because the media quite willfully seems to spin his story in a way where his drug ban and his ensuing cocaine binge are the same thing, i.e. he fell into a deep depression after beating Wladimir, did some coke, got caught and did more coke making this a triumph of the human spirit.
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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 12 Jun 2020, 1:18 pm

kingraf wrote:
skiddy wrote:This fight should be boycotted.
A drugs cheat involved, brokered by a mafia like figure, in a horrific destination to boot.
Waste of time.
Why does everybody in boxing pretend Fury isn't a drugs cheat and is a legitimate athlete?

It's because the media quite willfully seems to spin his story in a way where his drug ban and his ensuing cocaine binge are the same thing, i.e. he fell into a deep depression after beating Wladimir, did some coke, got caught and did more coke making this a triumph of the human spirit.

At the end of the day he's still a racist, homophobic, chauvinistic doper.

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