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Pro 14 Semi Final: Edinburgh vs Ulster, 5 September 2020

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Who will win?

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Total Votes : 13
 
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Post by Hazel Sapling on Fri 04 Sep 2020, 12:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

Edinburgh vs Ulster
19:35
Saturday 5 September
BT Murrayfield

Ref: Frank Murphy (IRFU)
Assistants: Mike Adamson and Sam Grove-White (SRU)

Edinburgh

Sutherland - McInally - Nel (Schoeman - Willemse - Berghan)
Toolis - Gilchrist (Davidson)
Bradbury - Mata - Watson (Ritchie)

Groom - VDW (Shiel - Chamberlain)
Dean - Bennett (Taylor)
VDM - Kinghorn - Graham

Ulster

O'Sullivan - Herring - O'Toole (McGrath - Andrew - Moore)
A O'Connor - Carter (Treadwell)
Matthew Rea - Coetzee - Murphy (Reidy)

Cooney - Burns (Mathewson - Madigan)
McCloskey - Hume
Lyttle - Stockdale - Ludik (Lowry)

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Post by Heuer27 on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 9:33 pm

When you look at Edinburgh’s back line there really is no excuse for such poor back play at times.There is quality throughout the backs but really poor decision making at the same time. Someone has to take responsibility for that.

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Post by thebandwagonsociety on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 9:34 pm

Also what a way for Madigan to become part of the team, auto fan acceptance with pressure kicks like that at the start of his time at Ulster.

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Post by Heuer27 on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 9:35 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:
Heuer27 wrote:Cockers is going to be Ragin. Threw that away. Very Luvvie of them.

Need to use that disappointment/ anger for next season in a few weeks.

Feel for the players but they just were not clinical enough when the opportunities arose.

They were clinical enough to win, they just threw the game away through silly penalties and poor game management. The last 10 minutes they shouldn't have kicked so much. I think Groom, good player though he is, made some very poor kicking decisions in the last quarter.

Not from what I saw. They missed at least four very clear scoring opportunities which a clinical team would have converted.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 9:41 pm

tigertattie wrote:Can we blame hodge for this one?

We scored tries. We just folded defensively when ulster increased the tempo.

In honesty I don't think so it was more a dry joke on my part.

I think it just came down to very poor game management and lack of discipline at key moments. As soon as Edinburgh were out of jail they put themselves in a new difficult position.

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Post by Heuer27 on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 9:41 pm

Yep he’s ragin.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 9:42 pm

tigertattie wrote:Can we blame hodge for this one?

We scored tries. We just folded defensively when ulster increased the tempo.

Not just for this one, but yes. This game should have been done at half time. Our back line has such individual talent, but zero cohesion.

Still, i don't want to absolve the players of blame either. Leadership severely lacking.

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Post by Pot Hale on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 9:42 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:What a brain fart to end the game. The ref had to pause the game to double check that something so stupid actually happened.

Harsh but probably fair - he didn't have a prayer of catching the ball.
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Post by NeilyBroon on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 9:45 pm

Heuer27 wrote:Yep he’s ragin.

To be fair I think even the most chilled out coach would turn into the Hulk after that game.
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Post by Brendan on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 9:46 pm

Hard luck Edinburgh, well done Ulster.

May have come down to Ulster having played a bit more knockout and so knew how to play it better. Still Edinburgh have improved and should be a good shout for semi finalist again.

Will Ulster be the team to turn over Leinster or is this playoffs 2012 all over again for Edinburgh and Ulster.

Either way good to see Ulster back in the Final, first since 2013.

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Post by Brendan on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 9:51 pm

Also from a Covid point of view the organisers must be happy. Ulster the only team considered part of Ireland and the UK were the only one that had to travel outside their Union/Political area.

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Post by Pot Hale on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 9:54 pm

Brendan wrote:Hard luck Edinburgh,  well done Ulster.

May have come down to Ulster having played a bit more knockout and so knew how to play it better.  Still Edinburgh have improved and should be a good shout for semi finalist again.

Will Ulster be the team to turn over Leinster or is this playoffs 2012 all over again for Edinburgh and Ulster.

Either way good to see Ulster back in the Final, first since 2013.

They'll be buoyed from that comeback and win. Question is did that take more out of them than Leinster against Munster? And who will each coach field with one eye on their respective European matches the following weekend?

Does McFarland go all out with his best team figuring that's his best chance and hope Leinster are slightly under-staffed with top quality?
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Post by BigGee on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 10:04 pm

Bad luck Edinburgh and well done Ulster.

Not seen the match yet as am at work tonight, but it sounded entertaining!

Ulster have lost a few close ones to Glasgow over the years, so maybe the have learnt their lessons and were more ready this time.

Maybe Edinburgh have got to go through that same process of lossing a few before learning how to win these knock out games.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 10:11 pm

That's a fair comment. Sometimes you need to learn through pain, and the Edinburgh squad will learn plenty from this!

Still, some dumb errors and backline imprecision are the major causes of this. We were the better side, and we lost. We thought our bench would bring the impact, and it was the opposite.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 10:14 pm

How the hell did Edinburgh lose that... cough, Mike Willemse cough... Rolling Eyes

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 10:20 pm

I'm not going to blame Willemse. He's an all action hooker and great backup to McInally. A silly mistake, but there were plenty of those (including some poor ref calls in the first half).

Look, this will and does hurt. Cracking game, and in my view Edinburgh should have won, but Ulster did win and it came down to desire, luck, decision making and two great kicks. Hopefully the lesson to Edinburgh is to take luck out if the equation next time, by making better decisions. With Laidlaw at 9 we win that game.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 10:23 pm

Feel sorry for Watson. Had a stormer and on the losing side. Just watched Cockers in the post-match. Not happy at all!!

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Post by bsando on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 10:24 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:That's a fair comment. Sometimes you need to learn through pain, and the Edinburgh squad will learn plenty from this!

Still, some dumb errors and backline imprecision are the major causes of this. We were the better side, and we lost. We thought our bench would bring the impact, and it was the opposite.

I think Cockers subbed off the wrong lock! Toolis was having a blinder and then Gilco gave two daft, tired penalties away. Also, Mata could have stayed on a bit longer really.

Got to give credit to McFarland, he played a blinder from a coaching perspective. Correct subs at the right time and despite Ulster not playing terrific rugby, they asked a lot of questions of Edinburgh and Edinburgh let that get the better of them.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 10:27 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm not going to blame Willemse. He's an all action hooker and great backup to McInally. A silly mistake, but there were plenty of those (including some poor ref calls in the first half).

Look, this will and does hurt. Cracking game, and in my view Edinburgh should have won, but Ulster did win and it came down to desire, luck, decision making and two great kicks. Hopefully the lesson to Edinburgh is to take luck out if the equation next time, by making better decisions. With Laidlaw at 9 we win that game.

Edinburgh certainly coughed up ball easily in the second half and struggled with Ulster’s maul, but ultimately it came down to Willemse’s pathetic slap down. Fair play to Ulster and Madigan, but if you had held on for the draw you would have at least had a fighting chance to win the game in extra time, or penalty shoot-outs even...

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 10:29 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Feel sorry for Watson. Had a stormer and on the losing side. Just watched Cockers in the post-match. Not happy at all!!

Edinburgh’s record in KO matches under Cockers doesn’t look great, does he share some of the criticism? I would have liked to have seen Edinburgh’s name on the trophy tbh, but oh well. Good luck against Bordeaux.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 11:14 pm

That's a tough question, does Cockers deserve criticism?

I think he's a very decent coach, but i have questioned whether this coaching group can move us forward. I personally think the backs coaching is the big issue, and would give Cockers a pass, but ultimately the buck stops with him. I'd welcome a bit of a shake up.

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Post by RDW on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 11:17 pm

Well that's a rubbish thing to wake up to.

Well done Ulster - I'll watch it in a bit.

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Post by tigertattie on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 11:26 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:That's a tough question, does Cockers deserve criticism?

I think he's a very decent coach, but i have questioned whether this coaching group can move us forward. I personally think the backs coaching is the big issue, and would give Cockers a pass, but ultimately the buck stops with him. I'd welcome a bit of a shake up.

Cockers is a no nonsense kinda guy not he’s still hampered by SRU involvement. No way on Gods green earth would cockers employ hodge as a coach, that’s been forced on him by the SRU with the home grown talent pool agenda.

Edinburgh are a competent backs coach away from being a very good side.
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Post by Don Alfonso on Sat 05 Sep 2020, 11:54 pm

Great game. So much better than the other SF.

Given we were missing four of our best players, I really didn't think we could do it. But we started to play in the second half in the way that we can - fast, skillful, decisive - a way that we hadn't played since the season restarted.

A lot of grief being given to Willemse but we had gone from 19-7 down to 19-19. If it hadn't have been that, it would have been some other mistake. Edinburgh were folding and had no answers. Fifteen unanswered points. With my shouty one-eyed Ulster hat on, they should have had someone in the bin - when we picked up the pace in the second half they just gave away penalty after penalty.

There was a shot of Watson walking away after Lyttle had boogied past him that made me think that Edinburgh were a bit mentally soft - he wasn't angry, he just seemed resigned. I think Watson is a superb international back row, but seeing his reaction made me think we could put serious doubt in Edinburgh's heads.

I think Ulster are the better team, I just didn't think we'd start playing anywhere close to our potential - we haven't looked great since the season restarted.

Hard lines, Edinburgh - a great team. But I think at the heart of the Ulster win was McFarland's ruthlessness, hoikinge the likes of Cooney off early, and turning around our mentality at half time. In that, he was smarter and much more effective than Cockerill.

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Post by bsando on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 12:24 am

Don Alfonso wrote:Great game. So much better than the other SF.

Given we were missing four of our best players, I really didn't think we could do it. But we started to play in the second half in the way that we can - fast, skillful, decisive - a way that we hadn't played since the season restarted.

A lot of grief being given to Willemse but we had gone from 19-7 down to 19-19. If it hadn't have been that, it would have been some other mistake. Edinburgh were folding and had no answers. Fifteen unanswered points. With my shouty one-eyed Ulster hat on, they should have had someone in the bin - when we picked up the pace in the second half they just gave away penalty after penalty.

There was a shot of Watson walking away after Lyttle had boogied past him that made me think that Edinburgh were a bit mentally soft - he wasn't angry, he just seemed resigned. I think Watson is a superb international back row, but seeing his reaction made me think we could put serious doubt in Edinburgh's heads.

I think Ulster are the better team, I just didn't think we'd start playing anywhere close to our potential - we haven't looked great since the season restarted.

Hard lines, Edinburgh - a great team. But I think at the heart of the Ulster win was McFarland's ruthlessness, hoikinge the likes of Cooney off early, and turning around our mentality at half time. In that, he was smarter and much more effective than Cockerill.

Yeah I agree with that, Ulster despite a pretty ropey first half at times were only 5 points down. They held out Edinburgh on a few occasions and Burns deserves credit for getting back and intercepting Bennett’s pass. That was a definite try saver.

The Watson incident was more Kinghorns fault. He flew over and there was a misunderstanding and Lyttle got a very easy run in despite the two on one. Watson was fuming with Kinghorn that’s why he looked the way he did afterwards. He was bottling up his frustration. At least that was my take on it.

Where I would give Ulster most credit is for not giving up at any point in that game. They made mistakes and got out scrummaged at times in the first 60 but they never rolled over. I’m not gonna lie, I thought Edinburgh had the game when they went 12 up but that was when Ulster played their best rugby of the match so fair play! It was a brilliant comeback of attacking rugby.

I don’t think Edinburgh are a soft side they’re just not quite title contenders yet. Mark Dodson even said Cockerill has got Edinburgh to where they are now a lot faster than anticipated so we’ll have to see how the next few seasons develop. I’m confident Edinburgh will be back in this scenario again next season.

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Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 12:33 am

Final is Leinster v Leinster lite. And hardly an Orangeman in sight. Strange days indeed

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Post by RDW on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 12:35 am

That's a good point bsando - in 3 years under Cockers we've gone from no hope laughing stocks to justifiably disappointed we didn't make the final.

It still shows the issues with Scottish sporting psyche though - we're not natural winners. We also struggle being favourites and in particular struggle when we're ahead and have to close out a game. We're just not used to it!

It took Glasgow several attempts before they finally got their win. Edinburgh have had 2 knockout disappointments under Cockers now - we desperately need to learn from both.

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Post by Kingshu on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 12:38 am

I think Watson's body language was just felt he let himself down that he had been fairly easily side stepped, I'd be sure that by time conversion was taken he was switched back on as he had a great game.

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Post by Don Alfonso on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 12:47 am

I agree. They're comfortably one of the best sides in the Pro14 - it's entirely appropriate and fitting that they were in the semi-finals and top of their division. They'll be back there next season. But bloody hell they're happy to infringe under pressure. They were genuinely lucky not to have a yellow card.

When they went straight down and scored after Lyttle's try, I thought they were just going to have too much. A hammer blow after our very first points in the board. But we pulled them apart in the last twenty minutes. Those final passes started sticking and the support started getting there on time and the game turned round completely.

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Post by bsando on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 12:51 am

RDW wrote:That's a good point bsando - in 3 years under Cockers we've gone from no hope laughing stocks to justifiably disappointed we didn't make the final.

It still shows the issues with Scottish sporting psyche though - we're not natural winners. We also struggle being favourites and in particular struggle when we're ahead and have to close out a game. We're just not used to it!

It took Glasgow several attempts before they finally got their win. Edinburgh have had 2 knockout disappointments under Cockers now - we desperately need to learn from both.

Well hopefully against Bordeaux! Haha. That would be a great consolation to some how make the challenge cup final. Tough ask but not impossible to still get some silverware this season.

Just got to keep plugging at it. On a positive note I thought Graham was fantastic, DVDM was brilliant, Dean had his best game since coming back, Watson had a very good game too. Lot of positives from the loss it just wasn’t Edinburgh’s day.

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Post by Don Alfonso on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 12:52 am

Kingshu wrote:I think Watson's body language was just felt he let himself down that he had been fairly easily side stepped, I'd be sure that by time conversion was taken he was switched back on as he had a great game.

He is brilliant. I'd pay big, big bucks to have him at Ulster.

But hand on heart, when I saw his face, I thought that he seemed a bit lost when the momentum went against him.

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Post by Don Alfonso on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 12:55 am

In other news, I thought Murphy didn't have a scooby at the scrums, but otherwise was really pretty good.

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Post by Don Alfonso on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 12:56 am

Frank Murphy, that is, not Jordi, who was meh.

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Post by Kingshu on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 12:58 am

McFarland got the tactics spot on today, he put the normal starting props on the bench to counteract Edinburghs strong bench frontrow.
He swapped Cooney for Mathewson early to add pace and less kicking to the game.
In the first half VDM was making a lot of gound and could have been Motm, but for 2nd half McF moved Stockdale to his wing and VDM hardly featured in the 2nd half. Stockdale does not get credit for his defense but he kept the most dangerous player in the Pro 14 quiet.

What I'm not sure about in why did he bring Ludik off? I'd have though he may have moved stockdale to the wing and have Ludik play full back and keep Lowery for later in case there were injuries?
I'd guess its because while Ludik is a very solid fullback Lowry has more to his game and he want a defensive fullback when Ulster were behind.

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Post by bsando on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 1:01 am

Don Alfonso wrote:I agree. They're comfortably one of the best sides in the Pro14 - it's entirely appropriate and fitting that they were in the semi-finals and top of their division. They'll be back there next season. But bloody hell they're happy to infringe under pressure. They were genuinely lucky not to have a yellow card.

When they went straight down and scored after Lyttle's try, I thought they were just going to have too much. A hammer blow after our very first points in the board. But we pulled them apart in the last twenty minutes. Those final passes started sticking and the support started getting there on time and the game turned round completely.

Yeah another penalty or two and that would have been a yellow for sure. Credit to the Ulster pressure being applied. Ulster’s discipline was superior and Edinburgh maybe missed a trick by taking a few more a scrums when they had the chance. They had a slight advantage there I think. McFarland made some very good tactical decisions though, and the way he got Ulster picking off the blindside more in the 2nd half worked a treat.

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Post by RDW on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 1:18 am

Don Alfonso wrote:
Kingshu wrote:I think Watson's body language was just felt he let himself down that he had been fairly easily side stepped, I'd be sure that by time conversion was taken he was switched back on as he had a great game.

He is brilliant. I'd pay big, big bucks to have him at Ulster.

But hand on heart, when I saw his face, I thought that he seemed a bit lost when the momentum went against him.

I just got to that part and I think you're reading too much into it. We were still in control at that point and he'd just been done by a winger and was frustrated - there's no way he was thinking 'we're going to lose this now' at that point.

He's just made a great break for Edinburgh's third try - I'm guessing bits plain sailing from here on in yeah?


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Post by Don Alfonso on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 1:25 am

Ha ha! It's entirely possible that I was reading much too much into it. It could have been a facile reading of Watson's response, but that's what I thought at the time and I wasn't wrong.

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Post by RDW on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 1:27 am

Don Alfonso wrote:Ha ha! It's entirely possible that I was reading much too much into it. It could have been a facile reading of Watson's response, but that's what I thought at the time and I wasn't wrong.

You certainly weren't!

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Post by Don Alfonso on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 1:40 am

See yis on the final next year, Edinboroians.

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Post by RDW on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 2:02 am

Just finished the game - first of all it was a fantastic game and a real good advert for the Pro 14.

With the benefit of hindsight I'm actually less frustrated than those that were watching it live. I was expecting to see a complete collapse from Edinburgh, gross mismanagement and stupid mistakes. There was some of that, but in truth Ulster - pretty much out of nowhere - brought a huge amount of intensity that we just couldn't live with. We barely touched the ball after Watson's try assist. Yes that's when you need your big game players to step up and make a key intervention, but Ulster were excellent in that last 20.

I think the benches were the key factor here. Ulster's won the game, Edinburgh's weakened the starting XV. We have a top reserve front row and Ritchie is class but past that we were lacking in options. Davidson is incredibly inexperienced, and our reserve halfbacks were young lads who weren't going to close out a game. Ulster could bring on the vastly experienced Madigan - we had a kid with one pro start to his name. Pyrgos and Hickey (if the season hadn't been delayed of course) would have brought a lot of control and experience. I wonder if he should have left some more experience on the bench to balance out the team over the 80? Toolis swapping with Davidson for example.

Edinburgh will certainly be scratching their heads as to how they lost that. They did everything right for 60 minutes, just didn't have enough in them to see it through to the end.

Hamish Watson was outstanding as we're our wingers. I don't blame Willems for the result - he was rushing out the line to try and put pressure in defence and it's anyone's natural reaction to reach out for that ball. Watson and Kinghorn could have done better for the Ulster try but Watson just over commited himself and was done by a class winger.

Well done Ulster - it's a huge ask to beat Leinster but you never know!

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Post by bsando on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 8:45 am

That is a good point about the bench impact from Ulster. McFarland played his bench very well and made some bold choices, very Toonie-esque.

Pyrgos would have been a good player to have on the bench, is he injured? And yes Davidson and Chamberlain are very inexperienced. I was surprised not to see Haining involved he’s the sort of player you’d want to have in these tense matches. A real nuisance around the rucks.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 9:12 am

I think Edinburgh need to kick less and retain possession more, particularly around the halfway line. If a good tactical kick is on then by all means go for it but there were just too many straight into the arms of Stockdale and co to run it back. I think Groom was guilty of the majority of the mindless kicks with a few from VdW. It seems to be something that has been coached and needs reviewing urgently before begles.

Well done again Ulster. Hope you can overturn Leinster, it's getting a bit boring with them!

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Post by jimbopip on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 9:51 am

Morning gentlefolks Very Happy

I watched the game late last night and the Luvvies must feel that they could have, and possibly should have won that. Ulster, however, must be feeling that they showed titanic resolve and immense self-belief to win when it all looked to be slipping away from them.

So many IFs for the Luvvies.
If they had scored just before half time, then the team talks would have been very different. However, Dan The Ex Glasgow Man could say "You haven't played any rugby yet and you're still in this." Whereas Cockers must have known that 5 points for 40 minutes dominance probably wasn't enough.
If Edinburgh score again at 12 points up then they go on to win. Even a three pointer would have been enough. Clinical teams would have found a way to do it.
IF the Luvvies' backs had played as a cohesive unit it could have been all over before half time. I think Mark Bennett received ONE pass in the first half. The first pass he received in the second was a hospital ball on his own line and he almost created a try out of it. he was criminally under employed last night.
IF DVDM ever learns to pass inside once he has broken the line and drawn the last defender Edinburgh might win more of these tight matches. Twice players had easy run ins and he died with the ball. It may sound harsh but at the highest levelthese things make all the difference.

Ulster clap clap clap
It could be seen as a typical Irish response, "We're out of it lads. Fecc it, let's give it a lash." They upped the tempo and played fast and loose (ish) and the Luvvies couldn't contain them. They went for broke and puggie paid out big time. To mix lots of metaphors.
Ulster deserved that win because they were the braver side.
A cracking match for a neutral.

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Post by RDW on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 12:28 pm

So my brother reckons I'm being too lenient on Edinburgh in my assessment, which I probably am. Edinburgh were favourites, got into a very strong winning position yet lost I just think Ulster need a lot of credit for the extra gears they managed to find almost from nowhere.

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Post by bsando on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 3:11 pm

I think it's a bit of both. Edinburgh crumbled no doubt about that. The Ulster pack deserve a lot of credit for the two excellent rolling mauls that got them the last two try's. Edinburgh were far too passive to defend the second try, only Schoeman and Toolis got (too late) back while the rest of the pack were not paying attention to where the threat was.

I think the ref was a bit harsh on Gilchrist twice in a row. Both times he got pinned into a ruck and thought he was out of the way. Other refs may have actually called it a penalty to Edinburgh, but because Gilchrist wasn't attempting to wriggle he didn't make a case for himself so I think the ref made the right call with the evidence presented to him.

DVDM will hopefully recognise he needs to look for passing options when he makes a break next time, unless the line really does beckon and he can make it. Last night he had more chances to pass than to make the try line and unfortunately he didn't get that ball away to a supporting player.

Kinghorn is still only 23 years old so he will get better just as Hogg has, but at the moment he is definitely a liability at times. I just really want to see him cut out some of the silly penalties and poor decision making. There are others in that backline who are younger and not making the same mistakes as him. He gained a lot of early hype in his career but the past few seasons he has stagnated and as a fan of his attack I really want to see him improve the other parts of his game.

Hopefully Edinburgh can just cut out some of the penalties and apply a bit more pressure of their own when they meet Bordeaux Bègles in a few weeks time. I believe they can win away and make another semi final, they are a good side on their day!

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 4:08 pm

bsando wrote:I think it's a bit of both. Edinburgh crumbled no doubt about that. The Ulster pack deserve a lot of credit for the two excellent rolling mauls that got them the last two try's. Edinburgh were far too passive to defend the second try, only Schoeman and Toolis got (too late) back while the rest of the pack were not paying attention to where the threat was.

I think the ref was a bit harsh on Gilchrist twice in a row. Both times he got pinned into a ruck and thought he was out of the way. Other refs may have actually called it a penalty to Edinburgh, but because Gilchrist wasn't attempting to wriggle he didn't make a case for himself so I think the ref made the right call with the evidence presented to him.

DVDM will hopefully recognise he needs to look for passing options when he makes a break next time, unless the line really does beckon and he can make it. Last night he had more chances to pass than to make the try line and unfortunately he didn't get that ball away to a supporting player.

Kinghorn is still only 23 years old so he will get better just as Hogg has, but at the moment he is definitely a liability at times. I just really want to see him cut out some of the silly penalties and poor decision making. There are others in that backline who are younger and not making the same mistakes as him. He gained a lot of early hype in his career but the past few seasons he has stagnated and as a fan of his attack I really want to see him improve the other parts of his game.

Hopefully Edinburgh can just cut out some of the penalties and apply a bit more pressure of their own when they meet Bordeaux Bègles in a few weeks time. I believe they can win away and make another semi final, they are a good side on their day!

Hard not to agree. It's very frustrating but Edinburgh really showed how naïve they were and that's the difference at the moment. A couple of senior players really let the side down tactically and it came back to bite them. Ulster also showed their very best rugby and came back in the style of old Glasgow with all guns blazing.

I think Hodge needs to be moved on now. Whilst I don't think he's solely to blame for last night, the backs didn't work as a unit and the kicking game was just awful, which considering that's supposed to be his specialism makes it an unacceptable failing on his part as a coach. The one thing linking this Edinburgh to the dark days is Hodge, and I think that reflects in how their attack and kicking comes across.

When Glasgow won the pro12 they weren't the biggest team but they all worked as a unit and offloaded an obscene amount and really honed in on their strengths. Very rarely there were individual tries. Looking at Edinburgh they have all the parts to become powerful and deadly in attack but they currently just depend on individual tries to stay ahead.

At the moment they do enough to win most games but as this proves that's not enough to win knockout rugby. Less pointless kicks, more ball retention, they need to be confident in their ability to play phase rugby.

As you said bsando there's a good side there but I think unless there's a change in backroom staff they'll be a side of excellent players without the cohesiveness required to go beyond and win the title.
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Post by bsando on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 6:06 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:
bsando wrote:I think it's a bit of both. Edinburgh crumbled no doubt about that. The Ulster pack deserve a lot of credit for the two excellent rolling mauls that got them the last two try's. Edinburgh were far too passive to defend the second try, only Schoeman and Toolis got (too late) back while the rest of the pack were not paying attention to where the threat was.

I think the ref was a bit harsh on Gilchrist twice in a row. Both times he got pinned into a ruck and thought he was out of the way. Other refs may have actually called it a penalty to Edinburgh, but because Gilchrist wasn't attempting to wriggle he didn't make a case for himself so I think the ref made the right call with the evidence presented to him.

DVDM will hopefully recognise he needs to look for passing options when he makes a break next time, unless the line really does beckon and he can make it. Last night he had more chances to pass than to make the try line and unfortunately he didn't get that ball away to a supporting player.

Kinghorn is still only 23 years old so he will get better just as Hogg has, but at the moment he is definitely a liability at times. I just really want to see him cut out some of the silly penalties and poor decision making. There are others in that backline who are younger and not making the same mistakes as him. He gained a lot of early hype in his career but the past few seasons he has stagnated and as a fan of his attack I really want to see him improve the other parts of his game.

Hopefully Edinburgh can just cut out some of the penalties and apply a bit more pressure of their own when they meet Bordeaux Bègles in a few weeks time. I believe they can win away and make another semi final, they are a good side on their day!

Hard not to agree. It's very frustrating but Edinburgh really showed how naïve they were and that's the difference at the moment. A couple of senior players really let the side down tactically and it came back to bite them. Ulster also showed their very best rugby and came back in the style of old Glasgow with all guns blazing.

I think Hodge needs to be moved on now. Whilst I don't think he's solely to blame for last night, the backs didn't work as a unit and the kicking game was just awful, which considering that's supposed to be his specialism makes it an unacceptable failing on his part as a coach. The one thing linking this Edinburgh to the dark days is Hodge, and I think that reflects in how their attack and kicking comes across.

When Glasgow won the pro12 they weren't the biggest team but they all worked as a unit and offloaded an obscene amount and really honed in on their strengths. Very rarely there were individual tries. Looking at Edinburgh they have all the parts to become powerful and deadly in attack but they currently just depend on individual tries to stay ahead.

At the moment they do enough to win most games but as this proves that's not enough to win knockout rugby. Less pointless kicks, more ball retention, they need to be confident in their ability to play phase rugby.

As you said bsando there's a good side there but I think unless there's a change in backroom staff they'll be a side of excellent players without the cohesiveness required to go beyond and win the title.

I largely agree, I think it would help Edinburgh progress if they had a more dynamic attack coach. Someone like Jason O'halloran would really bring a new dimension to the Edinburgh attack. It isn't all bad though, Edinburgh did do some good things in attack at times but as you say they didn't get those offloads to the support runners. I also find it infuriating when Kinghorn ignores his outside support to try and pick a gap only to get turned over.

I just realised Graham turned over Stockdale for the second time in the match but the ref didn't call it for some reason (71:26). An Ulster player wins back Grahams turnover as he is eventually cleared out and the ref calls it "ripped back by blue" and allows play to continue. Darcy had isolated Stockdale and by the new laws had won the turnover. Before the change it would have probably been play on because Darcy did eventually get cleared out. However, as he was on his feet, Stockdale wasn't releasing and Graham had actually even won the ball briefly it seems contradictory to the new rule that he was allowed to be cleared out and for play to continue. Regardless, the exit from their own half was not done well and allowed Ulster to attack again, exactly what they wanted. Edinburgh really needed to get that ball to VDW to get the ball deeper into Ulsters half. So as you say, some poor tactical decisions that were costly and really just applied pressure on themselves.

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 6:23 pm

Yeah Graham was absolutely superb, and one of the few players to play well for the full 80, same with Watson.

All in all, very frustrating but there are still green shoots there.
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Post by BigGee on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 7:42 pm

Blimey, just watched the game and that is going to be uncomfortable viewing for Edinburgh in the review tomorrow. A game they should never have lost from 2 scores up with 20 mins to go. Ulster deserve a lot of credit for never giving up the chase and losing their belief, but Edinburgh threw it away at the end of the day.

To me the key three things were the Bennett pass that got intercepted, which would have put the game out of reached if Edinburgh had scored from it (which they should have). The other two were the Gilchrist penalties.

I tend to agree that Cockers subbed the wrong lock. Despite Toolis only being back for this game, he looked the fresher of the two. It was a hard and fast game and Gilchrist was blowing and could not summon the energy to roll away from those two tackles. Maybe an illustration of why GG, for all that he is a really solid player, has never really quite kicked on at international level as he might have. Those fine margins just make the difference and he was caught out there.

Edinburgh also kicked poorly when they were defending the lead. I think Tattie said in an earlier post that if Laidlaw had been playing, they would have won and he is probably right. Going forward, Edinburgh need a little bit more at half back , another FH to back up VDW (Chamberlain will take a few years to show his wares) and Groom and HP at SH are not getting any younger. If I was Cockers, i would be speaking to Finlay Christie's agent.

He and Dobie may turn out to be Scotland's future at SH.

Got to give credit to the Ulstermen though, they have lost a lot of semi finals as well and despite being second best for lot of this game, they never lost their belief. I hope they beat Leinster in the final.

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Post by Maddogflanker on Sun 06 Sep 2020, 9:31 pm

Listened on the radio, 20 minutes in I though Edinburgh were going to run away with it.
Congratulations to Ulster, but yeah some uncomfortable viewing on Monday for the squad!

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Post by EST on Mon 07 Sep 2020, 9:06 am

Credit to Ulster, the way they came back in that last 20 mins was really something - aided and abetted by an Edinburgh team completely out on its feet and rudderless in that final quarter. McFarland is a canny operator - holding back McGrath and Moore on the bench nullified any perceived advantage to Edinburgh packs replacements and subbing Mathewson in early allowed a change in tempo.

I think we possibly all got carried away by Edinburgh in the run up to this game - a closer look would have shown that behind the front row replacements and Ritchie we had Davidson, Sheil, Chamberlin and Taylor for impact - between them I doubt there is much more than 50 pro appearances. Still, a 12 points advantage with 20 to play should almost guarantee a win, typically Scottish that we couldn't seem to close it out - that familiar feeling of dread came over me as soon as we lost the re-start after the Dean try and from then on it was only going to end one way.

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