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England vs Georgia

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 08:27

I'll be lazy and just half inch the BBC article!

'Back in January, Eddie Jones warned his players of the curse of the beaten World Cup finalists.
The England boss was wary his side could be vulnerable in 2020 after the emotional and mental toll the tournament in Japan had taken.
Jones' concerns looked justified after England were swept aside by a hungry France a matter of days later, a result which scuppered their chances of a Grand Slam.
Given that early setback, it was no surprise to see Jones glowing over a Zoom call on Sunday after England followed the Paris humbling with four straight wins - over the course of almost nine months - to seal a third Six Nations title in five years.
"I prepared the team poorly for the French game," Jones reflected, taking the focus of defeat away from his players, a familiar tactic.
"But their approach to the rest of the tournament has been outstanding, they got on with the job and not looked for any sort of excuse - regardless of what has happened - and played good, tough, hard rugby, which is what you need to do to win the Six Nations."

The title, coming almost a year to the day after the World Cup final defeat by South Africa, further establishes England as one of the dominant forces in the world game.
France, though, were arguably the most impressive side in the tournament and can feel unlucky not to have pipped England to the championship, with Owen Farrell's late penalty in Paris, which grabbed a losing bonus point, ultimately proving decisive.
While no-one can blame England for ensuring they left the Stade de France with something for their efforts, it feels unpalatable that in a great tournament like the Six Nations - where victory is everything and defeat nothing - a side can be rewarded for losing.
Either way, rather than wait until England and France meet again next year, a rematch in the final of the Autumn Nations Cup at the start of December is a real possibility; a clash that could bring priceless profile to the fledgling tournament.


More new faces for Nations Cup?

On that note, it is typical of Jones' mindset that a matter of hours after finally finishing the Six Nations, he was already turning his attention to England's Nations Cup opener against Georgia.
After looking after business in Rome, admittedly in scratchy fashion, what can we expect from England in that fixture, and the Nations Cup as a whole? Selection will be fascinating as Jones juggles with the unprecedented depth he has at his disposal in certain positions.
Wasps' Jack Willis will get a taste of international rugby soon, even though he is in competition with some outstanding flankers, while Exeter's giant lock Jonny Hill has capitalised on Courtney Lawes' injury and George Kruis' unavailability to stake his claim to be a regular partner to the extraordinary Maro Itoje.
It's understood fly-half George Ford will be back fit either for Georgia or Ireland a week later, while it will be intriguing to find out if Jones sees Wasps uncapped pivot Jacob Umaga as a genuine alternative to the Ford and Owen Farrell duopoly at number 10.

England's Autumn Nations Cup fixtures
14 November: England v Georgia, 15:00 GMT at Twickenham
21 November: England v Ireland, 15:00 GMT at Twickenham
28 November: Wales v England, 16:00 GMT at Parc y Scarlets
6 December: Finals weekend - England v TBD, 14:00 GMT at Twickenham

Max Malins is a player who many fans would want to see get a game at full-back, given his brilliance with Bristol since the restart, while Worcester's Ollie Lawrence will be handed his chance to start after making his debut off the bench in Rome.
The playmaking combination of Farrell and centres Henry Slade and Jonathan Joseph struggled to fire at the Stadio Olimpico, with England opting to kick a lot of ball in the first half.
With all of England's best performances in the past two years coming with Manu Tuilagi in the midfield, questions linger over how reliant Jones' side are on the Sale man's dynamism and direction.
Tuilagi is out injured for the foreseeable future, so can the 21-year-old Lawrence, himself a power athlete, fill that void? He surely will get some more exposure over the course of November.
"The game is very much about power at the moment," Jones said last month.
"Particularly for outside backs, you need at least one of those powerful players. Previously we have had Manu, so Ollie has an opportunity there to show his worth."


What it means to win your first cap

Lawrence and fellow debutant Ollie Thorley were both given a decent-length run-out off the bench against Italy, but slipping under the radar was a first cap for Bath hooker Tom Dunn, who came on for the excellent Jamie George a couple of minutes from the end of the game.
At the age of 27, Dunn has had to bide his time. Earlier this year, he had been involved in as many as seven England camps without being capped, and was even placed on standby for a matchday squad in January, before being denied a debut when Luke Cowan-Dickie became available again.
So to see a video on England Rugby's in-house channels of Dunn Facetiming home from the stadium after finally winning that elusive cap, fighting back the tears, would have warmed the heart of all England supporters. Good things come to those who wait.'

Despite the stupid comments about unpalatably playing to the rules from the author this does set out some of the choices to be made by Jones. Personally I think the interesting ones come at fly half and full back. I'd like to see Malins at 10 and Watson dropping back with the introduction of Thorley. Slade to get another run at 12 with Lawrence.

I think we'll see Umaga 10 Malins at 15.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 08:54

If Slade and Lawrence both start, pretty sure that Eddie will clad the Wuss man in the 12 shirt.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 08:55

Come on then ill have a go...id like to see something like

Some experience and a few newbies...

1 Genge
2 LCD
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 Hill
6 Willis / Earl
7 Curry
8 Billy

9 Robson
10 Farrell
11 Thorley
12 Slade
13 Lawrence
14 May
15 Watson


Last edited by GeordieFalcon on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 09:00; edited 1 time in total

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 08:58

I repeat my previous comment about Slade and Lawrence (noting that when Manu and Slade played together it was Manu who wore 12)

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 08:59

Hows Beshocked coping with Georges understudy only getting 2 minutes on the pitch? Whistle

The selection for this game could go one of two ways. Either Jones will want to make up for the lost development tour and give some more of kids/new caps a decent run out, or be desperate to get a cohesive team out on the pitch and try to get closer to knowing what his best 15 is again ahead of the more meaningful rounds to come. Fords fitness could be a part of that. Possibly a consideration of keeping the first choice front row fresh.

I'm not sure how much they really got out of the Italy game in terms of development, other than knowing they do miss a few key players and the same issues with stuttering exist. Theres been precious few games in recent times where England have played well for the majority of the 80.

Englands fundamental approach is not going to change, that was pretty clear from the Italy game and did work when they executed the basics. Like it or not kicking for pressure and playing the percentages in their own half works for them, and when they do get the ball in the opponents half they are pretty ruthless. Its good to get a couple of easy tests out of the way to get players back into the England way of doing things so there really cant be the same excuses of rustiness if they continue with the same we saw against Italy. When England get it right they are far too good for this level of team, but they need to be getting it right for 60+ minutes not 40-.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 09:24

LondonTiger wrote:I repeat my previous comment about Slade and Lawrence (noting that when Manu and Slade played together it was Manu who wore 12)
i get that...but will they not swop depending on defence and attacking plays?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 09:24

LondonTiger wrote:I repeat my previous comment about Slade and Lawrence (noting that when Manu and Slade played together it was Manu who wore 12)
i get that...but will they not swop depending on defence and attacking plays?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 09:28

Should be said that Ford is only borderline available for this game.

True LT, Jones had said he sees the second playmaker role in midfield as almost obsolete as by the time you've passed it 3 times to the 13 any space has vanished (though I see the importance more at splitting the field or offering another option to stop people being able to rush one guy all the time). Woodward has also said he'd like to see Lawrence at 12, which keeps him consistent after saying he doesn't want Slade there as it's not his club position!

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 09:39

its funny because it just dont see Slade as a 13. For me his skills set are better suited to 10 / particularly 12

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 10:04

I do like Slade though. His ability to make those little chip kicks or kicks through is just the type of thing you need to keep the defence a bit more honest.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 10:07

I like Slade alot. i just dont think he has fully brought his performances to the international stage. i also dont think hes a 13.

But thats just my opinon and clearly far more knowledgeable people like Baxter and Jones disagree..

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 10:45

It's a shame that LCD is injured as his form has been excellent and with Jonny Hill playing it would be an ideal time for him to get more starts.

With Ireland and Wales after Georgia then the 6 Nations (is the TBC fixture on 6th December still in the planning?) I think we will see rotation for this fixture.

1.Genge
2.George
3.Stuart
4.Launcjbury
5.Hill
6.Curry
7.Earl
8.Vunipola

9.Robson
10.Farrell

11.May
12.Lawrence
13.Slade
14.Thorley
15.Watson

16.Dunn
17.Obano
18.Sinckler
19.Ewels
20.Willis
21.Mitchell
22.Umaga
23.Marchant

First starts for Stuart, Earl, Robson, Lawrence and Thorley. Potential debuts for Obano, Willis, Mitchell and Umaga.

I'd be surprised if Itoje and Curry start every game in the Autumn and expect they won't be rotated at the same time. Itoje rested completely here then Curry off the bench against Wales perhaps.

Billy I view slightly differently given that he doesn't look quite match sharp so if he's fit I think Jones will try to play him into form ahead of the 6 Nations.

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Post by Mr Bounce on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 10:52

I disagree with keeping Billy. The match against Georgia would be the perfect time to introduce Dombrandt. With his carrying, power and running lines, he'd cause Georgia all kinds of problems.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 11:10

It's difficult to know what Jones will do. me I'd go with this:

Vunipola George Sinckler
Itoje Hill
Willis Underhill
Curry
Robson Malins
May Slade Lawrence Thorley
Watson

Genge Dunn Stuart Launchbury Earl Mitchell Umaga Marchant

As I've said I would want to keep the changes minimal. Willis needs to bed in for the next game as does Robson. Let Malins show what he can do against a physical but limited team, him and Robson should be able to produce fireworks but you never know what the chemistry may be like until you try them. Lawrence gets to show whether he can offer anywhere near the drive of tuilagi (the 2 centres will chop and change I have no doubt). We then have a sharp counter attacking full back and the 2 Gloucester wings. Bench is a bunch of newbies on the whole a number of whom i'd introduce early in the second half.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 11:11

Mr Bounce wrote:I disagree with keeping Billy. The match against Georgia would be the perfect time to introduce Dombrandt. With his carrying, power and running lines, he'd cause Georgia all kinds of problems.

do not think the Quin is in the squad though.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 11:18

ENGLAND SQUADBacks

Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 83 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 2 caps)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 13 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 50 caps)
Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Max Malins (Bristol Bears, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 3 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 56 caps)
Dan Robson (Wasps, 2 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Jacob Umaga (Wasps, uncapped)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 43 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 99 caps)

Forwards

Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 23 caps)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 3 caps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 18 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 49 caps)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors, 1 cap)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 38 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 65 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 8 caps)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
David Ribbans (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Jack Singleton (Gloucester Rugby, 3 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 35 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 59 caps)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 18 caps)
Jack Willis (Wasps, uncapped)

Reminder of the squad for the AIs. Heinz and mitchell a little interchangeable due to the injury.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 11:20

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's difficult to know what Jones will do. me I'd go with this:

Vunipola George Sinckler
Itoje Hill
Willis Underhill
Curry
Robson Malins
May Slade Lawrence Thorley
Watson

Genge Dunn Stuart Launchbury Earl Mitchell Umaga Marchant

Not wanting to pick holes but perhaps some questions:

1) Who would be skipper (Vice Captains are Ford and Billy historically, Ewels captained in the trial game last week).
2) Bearing in mind that Malins has not played 10 for Bristol, and was moved to 15 by Sarries due to his low goal kicking success and getting flustered at 10, who would be your goal kicker and do ypu really see Malins as a 10 going forward?
3) is that back row a little unbalanced?

And so you can pick holes with me, my selection:

Genge, LCD (if not fit George) Stuart
Itoje, Hill
Willis, Curry, Earl

Robson, Farrell
Thorley, Lawrence, Slade, May
Watson

Dunn, Mako, Sinckler, Ewels, Underhill, Mitchell (but Youngs returns to starting XV for the next week), Umaga, Cokanasiga

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 11:26

Billy needs to work. He's always done better after a run of games. I am getting less sure he's the future but if we are going to play him I can see the logic for playing him every game.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 11:30

LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It's difficult to know what Jones will do. me I'd go with this:

Vunipola George Sinckler
Itoje Hill
Willis Underhill
Curry
Robson Malins
May Slade Lawrence Thorley
Watson

Genge Dunn Stuart Launchbury Earl Mitchell Umaga Marchant

Not wanting to pick holes but perhaps some questions:

1) Who would be skipper (Vice Captains are Ford and Billy historically, Ewels captained in the trial game last week).
2) Bearing in mind that Malins has not played 10 for Bristol, and was moved to 15 by Sarries due to his low goal kicking success and getting flustered at 10, who would be your goal kicker and do ypu really see Malins as a 10 going forward?
3) is that back row a little unbalanced?

And so you can pick holes with me, my selection:

Genge, LCD (if not fit George) Stuart
Itoje, Hill
Willis, Curry, Earl

Robson, Farrell
Thorley, Lawrence, Slade, May
Watson

Dunn, Mako, Sinckler, Ewels, Underhill, Mitchell (but Youngs returns to starting XV for the next week), Umaga, Cokanasiga

Pick away! I'd have Itoje as captain. Malins has played 10 for Bristol a few times now and has looked good, has the running game Jones is apparently seeking. I'd let him kick all games as we're going to be in no danger of a loss. If it did go to pot or Jones doesn't feel he's up to it throw the ball to Slade, or even Robson as he's taken them for Wasps. As to if Malins is a 10, yes for me he is. He's showed good glimpses at 15 for Bristol but I'm not a fan of his positioning back there and his strengths shine more for me at fly half. I also see him as more than capable of forcing out Sheedy than Piatau.

Back row unbalanced. Not for me. Willis offers very good carrying and another lineout option. Although Vunipola was better Saturday than I've seen him in a long time (probably the first broken arm) I don't think he's fully up to speed yet and I'd just like a butchers at what those 3 could do together.

p.s. like you're team, it has a lot of the players I'd have loved to start myself ie Genge LCD just trying to minimise the changes.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 11:58

Id like to have seen Ted Hill get a run out v Georgia aswell...but there maybe already too many inexperienced guys out there.

His physicality would be interesting to see v them.

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Post by Recwatcher16 on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 12:08

GeordieFalcon wrote:Come on then ill have a go...id like to see something like

Some experience and a few newbies...

1 Genge
2 LCD
3 Sinkler
4 Itoje
5 Hill
6 Willis / Earl
7 Curry
8 Billy

9 Robson
10 Farrell
11 Thorley
12 Slade
13 Lawrence
14 May
15 Watson

Strong team but given the Georgia didn't trouble Scotland and there is Ireland and Wales to follow, Euro games and then straight into 6N again, how about;
1 Obano
2 Dunn
3 Williams
4 Ribbans
5 Hill
6 Hill
7 Willis
8 Earl
9 Robson
10 Malins
11 Thorley
12 Slade
13 Lawrence
14 Cokanasiga
15 Watson

16 LCD
17 Genge
18 Stuart
19 Itoje
20 Curry
21 Mitchell
22 Umaga
23 Marchant

Would be an interesting test to watch rather than a procession of tries and a non match.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 12:18

I don't think you learn anything about the players in such a team, you need a semblance of the combinations that will be used in future matches.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 12:20

Agree with the article's point about Tuilagi, an absolutely key man for England who is irreplaceable on an individual basis. The worry was that the Vunipolas didn't offer much carrying threat v Italy, either. First game back, though, so hard to really make too many solid conclusions from one game.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 12:32

GeordieFalcon wrote:its funny because it just dont see Slade as a 13. For me his skills set are better suited to 10 / particularly 12

Maybe 15 years ago, not now.

England play perfectly to suit Slade at 13.

The second creative player is typically playing at 15 these days. NZ have probably pioneered it best but Australia have been doing it for a number of years as well, because it has strong links to the way rugby league teams play, and no doubt there's considerable 'poaching' from that sport.

Daly is England's second playmaker at 15, albeit not in the same way Barrett or DMac are for NZ. He's close to Le Roux for SA. Slade is sort of like the middle playmaker who often seems to be the glue in England's good back moves who can pass and kick but often is a runner. Tuilagi, May, Watson, Nowell, and eventually Cokanasiga are England's runners who finish off the tries these men create.

In many ways the numbers on the back don't matter, but the days of having a Mike Catt style 12 are well and truly over. Slade is the closest thing England have had to Catt since Catt retired.

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Post by Recwatcher16 on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 12:34

Soul Requiem wrote:I don't think you learn anything about the players in such a team, you need a semblance of the combinations that will be used in future matches.

A fair point but this is against Georgia and also managing workloads, you could slot in established players amongst any that stood out from this game, against Ireland rather than any newbies being brought in cold (or not at all) against Ireland or Wales.

You are probably right though in that EJ prefers to put out his first team in every game.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 12:47

Genge, Dunn, Stuart

Genge and Stuart have been around the squad for a while they should be good to go. Dunn is an experienced player he'll be fine.

Launchbury, Ewels

Very much the second choices but makes sense to rest Itoje and Hill and give two experienced guys game time.

Willis, Underhill, Dombrandt

Straight shoot out between Willis and Underhill for who starts with Curry in the meaningful games.

Robson, Umaga

Club combination. Umaga can also be tied to England.

Farrell, Lawrence

Some midfield leadership and Umaga tends to suffer even more errors if not accompanied by a guiding hand at 12.

Cockansiga, Daly, Thorley

Bit of a mix and match. Daly for some leadership at the bet.

George, Obano, Sinckler, Ribbans, T Hill, Mitchell, Malins, Joseph.

Can get Ribbans committed to England. Some experience on the bench if it's going pear shaped.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 13:00

rugby racing and beer wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:its funny because it just dont see Slade as a 13. For me his skills set are better suited to 10 / particularly 12

Maybe 15 years ago, not now.

England play perfectly to suit Slade at 13.

The second creative player is typically playing at 15 these days. NZ have probably pioneered it best but Australia have been doing it for a number of years as well, because it has strong links to the way rugby league teams play, and no doubt there's considerable 'poaching' from that sport.

Daly is England's second playmaker at 15, albeit not in the same way Barrett or DMac are for NZ. He's close to Le Roux for SA. Slade is sort of like the middle playmaker who often seems to be the glue in England's good back moves who can pass and kick but often is a runner. Tuilagi, May, Watson, Nowell, and eventually Cokanasiga are England's runners who finish off the tries these men create.

In many ways the numbers on the back don't matter, but the days of having a Mike Catt style 12 are well and truly over. Slade is the closest thing England have had to Catt since Catt retired.

Thanks for the rugby lesson... thumbsup
Ill stick to my own opinion that Slades skills are better for 12.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 13:25

formerly known as Sam wrote:Genge, Dunn, Stuart

Genge and Stuart have been around the squad for a while they should be good to go. Dunn is an experienced player he'll be fine.

Launchbury, Ewels

Very much the second choices but makes sense to rest Itoje and Hill and give two experienced guys game time.

Willis, Underhill, Dombrandt

Straight shoot out between Willis and Underhill for who starts with Curry in the meaningful games.

Robson, Umaga

Club combination. Umaga can also be tied to England.

Farrell, Lawrence

Some midfield leadership and Umaga tends to suffer even more errors if not accompanied by a guiding hand at 12.

Cockansiga, Daly, Thorley

Bit of a mix and match. Daly for some leadership at the bet.

George, Obano, Sinckler, Ribbans, T Hill, Mitchell, Malins, Joseph.

Can get Ribbans committed to England. Some experience on the bench if it's going pear shaped.

Good logic behind that all, especially tying those dual qualification players. As above no Dombrandt in the squad unless it's refreshed again. Umaga has so much potential but he does play very loose and can take too many risks when games should be tied up a little: who better than Farrell to have beside him.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 13:35

Why would Jones pick Umaga over Smith..? Im not convinced thats the right way round.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 13:41

I prefer Smith but this is his thinking.

“Look at the example of Daniel Carter. He was at his best at 35, the complete package: calm, takes field goals when they need them, kicks to the corner. And then when there’s a line break he’s in on it. That’s the difficulty of that position.

“I like the way Umaga attacks the line. He reads the game well. The good rugby players are starting to come through, the guys who have a real good feel about the game.

“You can’t sit back and wait for things to evolve, you’ve got to be able to go quickly. To do that you need a 10 who’s very instinctive. You can’t coach them to do it, they just do it.

“You saw that when he scored that try (against Exeter). They got a couple of quick rucks and he just hits the line flat, through the hole, runs the holes, beats the full-back, scores.

“They’re the things you can’t coach and they’re the things you’re always looking for in players. It’s probably more pronounced now because of the way the game’s going.

“You’ve got this arm-wrestle type around the ruck where there’s 80 per cent of the game.

“Then it’s one pass and to break that defence down you need really instinctive players that can take the opportunity.

“We can’t coach them what to take because we don’t know how the defence is going to be. They’ve got to have the ability to take that. That’s why I like Umaga.”

I can't argue that off the cuff sums up Umaga alot. Easier to coach the control if you believe he has the quality?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 13:50

Yeah i agree...but that sounds an awful lot like Smith aswell...

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 14:47

https://youtu.be/JWlWZkG7eAY

The description in the interview made me think of Simmonds as well (around 1.50 I think). Except that Simmonds is superior in virtually every other facet of play. Kicking both out of hand and off the tee, defensive, leadership (Exeter captain), game management and he does the much desired off the cuff as well. He'd be my choice.

Thanks 7&1/2 missed Dombrandt dropping out the squad. Vunipola could continue there and try his way into form for me. He needs a step up in output.

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Post by Mr Bounce on Tue 03 Nov 2020, 15:14

I had forgotten that Dombrandt had dropped out as well. Oops...

Aah well, when Billy breaks his next limb...

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Wed 04 Nov 2020, 11:33

GeordieFalcon wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:its funny because it just dont see Slade as a 13. For me his skills set are better suited to 10 / particularly 12

Maybe 15 years ago, not now.

England play perfectly to suit Slade at 13.

The second creative player is typically playing at 15 these days. NZ have probably pioneered it best but Australia have been doing it for a number of years as well, because it has strong links to the way rugby league teams play, and no doubt there's considerable 'poaching' from that sport.

Daly is England's second playmaker at 15, albeit not in the same way Barrett or DMac are for NZ. He's close to Le Roux for SA. Slade is sort of like the middle playmaker who often seems to be the glue in England's good back moves who can pass and kick but often is a runner. Tuilagi, May, Watson, Nowell, and eventually Cokanasiga are England's runners who finish off the tries these men create.

In many ways the numbers on the back don't matter, but the days of having a Mike Catt style 12 are well and truly over. Slade is the closest thing England have had to Catt since Catt retired.

Thanks for the rugby lesson... thumbsup
Ill stick to my own opinion that Slades skills are better for 12.

You must have been skiving...

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 04 Nov 2020, 12:16

There is an underlying risk with Billy. In part we can bulk up carrying else where in the back row willis is better than either occupants at flanker and had played 8 a number of times for wasps as cover. Hill obviously a heavy duty carrier who is great in the lineout also.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 04 Nov 2020, 12:28

rugby racing and beer wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:its funny because it just dont see Slade as a 13. For me his skills set are better suited to 10 / particularly 12

Maybe 15 years ago, not now.

England play perfectly to suit Slade at 13.

The second creative player is typically playing at 15 these days. NZ have probably pioneered it best but Australia have been doing it for a number of years as well, because it has strong links to the way rugby league teams play, and no doubt there's considerable 'poaching' from that sport.

Daly is England's second playmaker at 15, albeit not in the same way Barrett or DMac are for NZ. He's close to Le Roux for SA. Slade is sort of like the middle playmaker who often seems to be the glue in England's good back moves who can pass and kick but often is a runner. Tuilagi, May, Watson, Nowell, and eventually Cokanasiga are England's runners who finish off the tries these men create.

In many ways the numbers on the back don't matter, but the days of having a Mike Catt style 12 are well and truly over. Slade is the closest thing England have had to Catt since Catt retired.

Thanks for the rugby lesson... thumbsup
Ill stick to my own opinion that Slades skills are better for 12.

You must have been skiving...

Opted to skip the lesson...

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 04 Nov 2020, 13:06

Eddie has just declared victory in the Autumn cup. No need to count the votes, play the games!

England were counting on this victory, and frankly we have won. Winner
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Post by BamBam on Wed 04 Nov 2020, 14:22

GeordieFalcon wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:its funny because it just dont see Slade as a 13. For me his skills set are better suited to 10 / particularly 12

Maybe 15 years ago, not now.

England play perfectly to suit Slade at 13.

The second creative player is typically playing at 15 these days. NZ have probably pioneered it best but Australia have been doing it for a number of years as well, because it has strong links to the way rugby league teams play, and no doubt there's considerable 'poaching' from that sport.

Daly is England's second playmaker at 15, albeit not in the same way Barrett or DMac are for NZ. He's close to Le Roux for SA. Slade is sort of like the middle playmaker who often seems to be the glue in England's good back moves who can pass and kick but often is a runner. Tuilagi, May, Watson, Nowell, and eventually Cokanasiga are England's runners who finish off the tries these men create.

In many ways the numbers on the back don't matter, but the days of having a Mike Catt style 12 are well and truly over. Slade is the closest thing England have had to Catt since Catt retired.

Thanks for the rugby lesson... thumbsup
Ill stick to my own opinion that Slades skills are better for 12.

You must have been skiving...

Opted to skip the lesson...

It's ok, he likes all of his own posts so I'm sure he's happy lecturing an empty room

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Post by Heaf on Wed 04 Nov 2020, 16:48

oooh someone disliked your post - wonder who chin

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 05 Nov 2020, 08:29

Looking at the Australia team and it seems a good example of how not to integrate new players. Another couple of debutants and Hodge now at fly half. I suppose it could work but I doubt it. Maybe Rennie is just pinning all his Hope's on a long term basis. I get frustrated with the speed Jones moves sometimes on his wider squad (some of you may have seen my comments on scrum half and flanker....) but it's so much better than others.

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Post by rugby racing and beer on Thu 05 Nov 2020, 10:00

Heaf wrote:oooh someone disliked your post - wonder who chin

You're like a bunch of teenage girls worrying about whether the cute boys will like your posts.

Sorry. I didn't.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu 05 Nov 2020, 11:00

For what it's worth I hope we see rotation over the next few weeks long the lines of:

Georgia - Looking at Willis, Earl, Robson, Lawrence and Thorley starting

1.Genge 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Launchbury 5.J Hill 6.Willis 7.T Curry 8.Earl
9.Robson 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Lawrence 13.Slade 14.Thorley 15.Furbank

16.Dunn 17.Obano 18.Stuart 19.Ewels 20.T Hill 21.Mitchell 22.Umaga 23.Marchant

Ireland - Looking at Stuart for TH depth, forward performance without Curry starting, how Hill copes running the lineout against Ryan, a Slade/Marchant partnership against Aki/Henshaw and a May-less back three against Murray's box kicking

1.Vunipola 2.LCD 3.Stuart 4.Itoje 5.Hill 6.T Hill 7.Underhill 8.Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.Thorley 12.Slade 13.Marchant 14.Watson 15.Malins

16.George 17.Genge 18.Sinckler 19.Ewels 20.T Curry 21.Robson 22.Umaga 23.Joseph

Wales - Looking at Williams for TH depth, Itoje potentially running the lineout, Umaga/Farrell axis, Mitchell at scrum half and big Joe

1.Genge 2.George 3.Williams 4.Itoje 5.Hill 6.T Curry 7.Earl 8.Vunipola
9.Mitchell 10.Umaga 11.Cokanasiga 12.Farrell 13.Lawrence 14.May 15.Watson

16.LCD 17.Vunipola 18.Sinckler 19.Launchbury 20.J Willis 21.Youngs 22.Slade 23.Marchant

Rotating against Ireland in particular may result in a loss but in a congested season with the 6 Nations to come soon after these fixtures I'd rather learn a bit about  options we haven't seen much.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 05 Nov 2020, 11:21

Now i could go along with all those KC...

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Post by Heaf on Thu 05 Nov 2020, 12:03

rugby racing and beer wrote:
Heaf wrote:oooh someone disliked your post - wonder who chin

You're like a bunch of teenage girls worrying about whether the cute boys will like your posts.

Sorry. I didn't.

Says the only one on here who likes his own posts (seems a bit narcissistic) - and I suspect goes around doing all the disliking.  I couldn't give a t*ss who likes or dislikes mine.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu 05 Nov 2020, 12:16

GeordieFalcon wrote:Now i could go along with all those KC...
I genuinely think we will see a lot of rotation and several new caps just perhaps not Curry, Watson and Itoje amongst them. Particularly against Ireland. With them blooding Doris and Connors it would be a good chance to test the back rowers. Curry is fantastic but becoming almost irreplaceable which is always a risky position to be in. Blooding Earl, Willis and Ted Hill to give depth and a buffer is important.

As seen with Kruis and Lawes unavailable it only takes a couple of untimely absences to affect a pack that looks set in stone.

A quick note on Harry Williams who I've been unconvinced by in the past. His scrummaging was solid but he rarely carried as you'd expect for his size and his tackling technique (tendency for a no arms 'door wedge' type challenge) looks like it would be pinged at international level but is often let go in the Prem. He was excellent for Chiefs last season though. He looked leaner, fitter, his work rate was up, carrying more prominently in the Chiefs pick and go game. He's earned the recall in my opinion.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 05 Nov 2020, 12:45

i agree KC. Ted HIll is one i really want to see come through. Hes a genuine 6 and sheer physical beast, that i think we've missed on the flanks for a while...and a reason they keep playing the locks in there.

Earls is class. Willis has insane potential...etc

Just so many options to look at.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 05 Nov 2020, 13:43

Loving the logic of finally finding a good player who demands selection in his place meaning you need to drop him incase he gets injured.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu 05 Nov 2020, 14:20

Gooseberry wrote:Loving the logic of finally finding a good player who demands selection in his place meaning you need to drop him incase he gets injured.
He's in the starting XV for two of the sides I've named and on the bench for the other Goose. Hardly dropped, just rotated to give others experience which really isn't an unusual thing in pro sport.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu 05 Nov 2020, 14:27

GeordieFalcon wrote:i agree KC. Ted HIll is one i really want to see come through. Hes a genuine 6 and sheer physical beast, that i think we've missed on the flanks for a while...and a reason they keep playing the locks in there.

Earls is class. Willis has insane potential...etc

Just so many options to look at.  
I really rate Hill as I've said many times. His physicality is a point of difference. He dominates contact in a similar way to Underhill and Curry when they broke through. Difference with Hill is he does so in attack and defence. Underhill and Curry are incredible tacklers but solid carriers. Vunipola is a brute carrying but a solid defender. Hill can dominate contact with and without the ball. Sometimes that brute force gets found out at international level but I think there's more to his game than only smashing people.

Earl is simply rapid for a flanker which could add to our attack and kick chase for obvious reasons. The chase and offload for Slade's try typifies his attacking game. Given that Earl is on the wing with May inside of Slade the backline isn't really set for that grubber but Earl's pace makes it a walk in.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 05 Nov 2020, 14:34

rugby racing and beer wrote:
Heaf wrote:oooh someone disliked your post - wonder who chin

You're like a bunch of teenage girls worrying about whether the cute boys will like your posts.

Sorry. I didn't.

Six dislikes must be a new record however.

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