Ulster Rugby 2022/2023

First topic message reminder :

Thought it was time for an update on the thread so this is the new all things Ulster thread.

The defence has been poor all season, a few weeks ago at the Zebre match they were cutting through Ulsters defence like it wasn't even there, only some scrambling back and the fact that Zebre are crap stopped them from scoring a good few tries that day.

What was worse is that Zebre were doing the same thing every single time and at no point did anyone catch on, they just kept the same kind of defence.

Yesterday is what happens when a good team meets that defence.

The 2nd half v Leinster and that game yesterday is very worrying, they are on a severe downward trajectory and McFarland is going to need to do something drastic to halt it.

Hume has to come out, he has been completely out of form since his return from injury.

Doak too has been poor since returning from Emerging Ireland

Honestly they should pay back every Ulster fan who went over there yesterday not becasue they lost but because of the complete lack of desire shown

100% spot re defense against Zebre.
We got away with it because it was Zebre.

My attitude is if they don't try and in some cases don't care they why should I
make the effort to go or care if they lose.

I just can’t get my head around such a dire string of games.
Did Emerging Ireland and Autumn series disrupt our team too much?
Do they all feel disconnected and disjointed.

I was a big Stewart Moore fan, but last few games have been woeful.
McIlroy was one of the few who weren’t entirely awful against Leinster and even he went downhill this weekend.

What stood out to me was the reactions to loose balls. Either they are exhausted or have no appetite, but a good few times yesterday Sale spilled their own ball or through loose passes and we’re able to just pick the ball up and continue on without it causing them much stress.

Defence is an interesting one - generally there’s a general on the field who organises the defence… but nobody really is missing that may have previously had that role, so I’m a bit confused how players who could defend last season have become incompetent this season regardless of a change in coaching.

You would almost wonder if there’s something going on in the ‘camp’.

clivemcl wrote:

I was a big Stewart Moore fan, but last few games have been woeful.

This is what happens when you mess a player around and not play him in his natural position - he is a centre not a FB
McIlroy should be playing as Lowry's backup.
He simply doesn't have the pace to be a top winger

clivemcl wrote:
so I’m a bit confused how players who could defend last season have become incompetent this season regardless of a change in coaching.

Simple year our defense coach was excellent - PAYNE
This year he is an inadequate - BELL

Cunningham and McFarland have a lot to answer for

I try and watch Clermont's games and apart from two games, away at Racing and Toulouse, they have been close on the scoreboard in the majority of the their losses.

Payne looks to be having a really positive to influence on their defensive patterns. He's even got Jules Plisson making tackles and even the odd turnover!

Ulster's loss is definitely Clermont's gain. I can't remember timings exactly but was Jonno Gibbs coaching at Ulster when Payne was still a player?

Seem to remember Glasgow's attack wasn't great when he was in charge of that aspect with the Warriors staff. He only stayed a season and then went to other sadly defunct Worcester Warriors before heading home to Ulster for this season.

Ulster v La Rochelle will be played in Dublin behind closed doors. Kingspan pitch was not given the go ahead due to safety concerns.

Well guys, what do we think of that? Still disappointed as it's ultimately another loss, or a little hopeful again after the second half performance?

Personally, I don't know what to make of McFarland being so publicly angry about the decision to play in Dublin. I feel like it's a distraction from the team's poor run of form.
Perhaps he really felt that Ulster would ova used the home support to really fuel a strong bounce back and that extra fuel was taken away from us.

That said, surely in a professional club of Ulster's standard, they should be able to perform at their best regardless of the conditions? Especially when it's Europe and they have a lot to prove.

I think he's right to be angry, it basically turned a home game into a game at a Neutral venue.
In the group stages now Ulster will have 2 away games, 1 Neutral and 1 home. Thats a disadvantage.

Can anyone with better analysis than me, pinpoint how and why Ulster started playing better? Were any of the subs particular catalysts? Was there a little bit of complacency from La Rochelle playing a part too? They started to coast through the game after being comfortably 29-0 up perhaps.

La Rochelle often drop their intensity if they think the win is in the bag. Did it last season against Pau only to let the visitors sneak a win at the end of the game.
They are definitely less ruthless than Toulouse who will keep playing full-tilt to the end of almost all of their games.
Kind of get the feeling that Hastoy, who replaced West at 10 this season, doesn't have the same level of consistency, yet
He mixes up good passages of play with frequent errors, often when he is trying to push too hard to make things happen where he should be getting his massive pack to carry through the guts of defences.

Good questions Clive. Personally I think the club, including Dan McF, are right to be furious. It looks like it cost us £700,000 at a time when money is very tight. The organisation was p*ss poor and the concession on La Rochelle "delegates" inexcusable. It wouldn't have happened to one of the big English or French clubs.

As for the game, the professionals on the field should perform irrespective of the distractions. The Sale game was appalling, whatever about travel difficulties. At least this time the team turned up, even if it was about 40 minutes late. Perhaps with home support they might have dome better in the first half. But they should take the positives from that second half performance.

Dan McF has done great things with the squad, not just the starting 15, but I still feel he hasn't addressed the fundamental problems we have with leadership and teamwork. It feels like that when the opposition are having success counteracting our game plan, the guys on the pitch can't or won't change things and when we think we have a game won, we sit back and take it easy.

I don't know if it is leaders on the pitch or lack of them, coaching, attitude or whatever, but until it is addressed successfully we will continue to be gallant losers at best.

clivemcl wrote: Was there a little bit of complacency from La Rochelle playing a part too? They started to coast through the game after being comfortably 29-0 up perhaps.

This is the closest to the truth.
Ulster did come out fighting but make no mistake the LR intensity dropped off significantly

Some player News if you haven't already heard it.

P du Toit (the SA flanker/slock) is almost certainly our second big signing for next year

Murphy is retiring
Gilroy and Madigan will not be offered new contracts

On the question of contracts  Rory Best has said that Kitshoff will on the £443,000 (500,000 euro)
not the £663,000 that some, non Irish, posters have been claiming here on 606.
This is no really giving away personal information is so far it is the top rate that Ulster have ever paid to ANY player.
He is pretty certain it is the top rate paid to any player in Ireland.
(there is the question of private individuals topping up salaries e.g Sexton but the IRFU didn't pay more than the ceiling)

It is the reason Sexton went to France
It is the reason Zebo went to France
It is the reason Piatau went to Bristol

Those teams were offering a salary the IRFU or the Provinces were not prepared to match.
He also made clear that Ulster most definitely do have a salary budget they must adhere to.

As you may have read he is very critical of Petrie over the pitch fiasco.

My take is:
The EPCR are a disgrace the game could have been played at Ravenhill  
It is clear TV is more important that spectators
The '150' official delegation from La Rochelle was a joke.
Petrie should not have gone onto Twitter
Especially as he and the board scored some own goals with respect to pitch preparation

Also clear Stephen Ferris is very unimpressed with Petrie
I should hear more on his views at the Munster game.
Given his forthright opinions that could be interesting  

geoff999rugby wrote:Some player News if you haven't already heard it.

P du Toit (the SA flanker/slock) is almost certainly our second big signing for next year

Murphy is retiring
Gilroy and Madigan will not be offered new contracts

On the question of contracts  Rory Best has said that Kitshoff will on the £443,000 (500,000 euro)
not the £663,000 that some, non Irish, posters have been claiming here on 606.
This is no really giving away personal information is so far it is the top rate that Ulster have ever paid to ANY player.
He is pretty certain it is the top rate paid to any player in Ireland.
(there is the question of private individuals topping up salaries e.g Sexton but the IRFU didn't pay more than the ceiling)

That's alot of private money.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/conor-murray-on-course-to-become-ireland-s-highest-paid-player-1.3642389

Update to reflect Kitshoff and thenews I've heard


2023

LHP - Andrew Warwick,Callum Reid, Eric O'Sullivan
Hooker – John Andrew
THP - Gareth Milasinovich, Jeffrey Toomunga-Allen
Lock - Sam Carter, Iain Henderson, Frank Bradshaw
Backrow - David McCann,Duane Vermeulen, Sean Reffell , Greg Jones
SH - John Cooney, David Shanahan
10 - Jake Flannery
Centre - Luke Marshall, Angus Curtis
Back 3 Player - Rob Lyttle, Jacob Stockdale, Aaron Sexton,  Will Addison,Ben Moxham, Shea O'Brien (development contract 22/23)

2024

Hooker - Declan Moore
THP - Tom O’Toole, Marty Moore
Backrow - Matthew Rea
10 – Billy Burns
Centre - James Hume

2025

Hooker - Rob Herring
LHP - Kitshoff
Lock - Alan O'Connor
Backrow - Nick Timoney, Marcus Rea
Centre – Stuart McCloskey, Stewart Moore
Back 3 Player – Ethan McIlroy, Robert Baloucoune
10/15 - Michael Lowry

2026

Hooker - Tom Stewart
Lock - Cormac Izuchukwu, Kieran Treadwell
SH – Nathan Doak
Centre - Jude Postlethwaite (development contract 22/23)

RugbyFan100 wrote:

That's alot of private money.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/conor-murray-on-course-to-become-ireland-s-highest-paid-player-1.3642389

300,000 euro - doesn't invalid what I said and in the case of Ulster there have no players who have had their salary enhanced by private funds.

Do you now accept that Kitshoff is £443,000 not £663,000 or do you think Rory is lying?

geoff999rugby wrote:

clivemcl wrote: Was there a little bit of complacency from La Rochelle playing a part too? They started to coast through the game after being comfortably 29-0 up perhaps.

This is the closest to the truth.
Ulster did come out fighting but make no mistake the LR intensity dropped off significantly

Ulster's swing in momentum plus the Danty yellow card really turned the game. La Rochelle are great at scoring tries but they do tend to concede them as well. Always worth a watch as a neutral.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Do you now accept that Kitshoff is £443,000 not £663,000 or do you think Rory is lying?

I have no idea how much Kitschoff gets paid. Odd comment.

Ulster do appear to be the biggest failures in professional sport given their budget to trophy ratio though.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Do you now accept that Kitshoff is £443,000 not £663,000 or do you think Rory is lying?

I have no idea how much Kitschoff gets paid. Odd comment.

Ulster do appear to be the biggest failures in professional sport given their budget to trophy ratio though.

What a typically stupid statement to make, in rugby alone it stands as a stupid statement let alone all professional sport. Mind you, what else do we expect from posters like yourself, the kind of posters that have destroyed 606 for the rest of us.

Pete330v2 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Do you now accept that Kitshoff is £443,000 not £663,000 or do you think Rory is lying?

I have no idea how much Kitschoff gets paid. Odd comment.

Ulster do appear to be the biggest failures in professional sport given their budget to trophy ratio though.

What a typically stupid statement to make, in rugby alone it stands as a stupid statement let alone all professional sport. Mind you, what else do we expect from posters like yourself, the kind of posters that have destroyed 606 for the rest of us.

Merry Christmas.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Do you now accept that Kitshoff is £443,000 not £663,000 or do you think Rory is lying?

I have no idea how much Kitschoff gets paid.


Ulster do appear to be the biggest failures in professional sport given their budget to trophy ratio though.

Do us all a favour and stop putting your oar in and allow Ulster fans to discuss Ulster matters without your jibes

Merry Christmas to you too - just celebrate it elsewhere

Thanks for the info Geoff, and sorry it got derailed by a non-Ulster fan!


Team for Connacht announced. Glad to see we seem to be sending a pretty strong side.

Sticking with Doak at 10 rather than giving Flannery a shot is an interesting one. Hope it works!

(15-9): Mike Lowry, Ethan McIlroy, Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Rob Lyttle, Nathan Doak, John Cooney;

(1-8): Rory Sutherland; Tom Stewart; Marty Moore; Alan O'Connor; Iain Henderson (Captain); David McCann; Marcus Rea; Nick Timoney.

Replacements: John Andrew; Eric O'Sullivan; Gareth Milasinovich; Sam Carter; Greg Jones; Dave Shanahan; Jake Flannery; Stewart Moore

Indeed, thanks for the info Geoff, it's nice to get some good news for a change despite the half witted attempts to derail the thread.

That's a very decent side for the trip to Galway and as usual it will need to be. It'll be interesting to see Doak starting at 10, he did a very decent job there last week so fingers crossed he can continue in that vein. What has Jake Flannery brought to the party when our young number 9 gets the 10 shirt in front of him? Have we been sent another flakey 10 by Munster?

Has Tom Stewart surpassed Herring? Is he close?
His work rate around the park has been impressive.
Perhaps lineout throws not great, but I don’t think Herrings have been great either this season.

Taking the three points from a difficult enough angle on 72nd minute with a 12 point lead says a lot about the Ulster sides current mentality.

Unless there was some nuanced advantage in the table in trying to deny Connacht a losing bonus point?

Pragmatic and sensible some might say but… to me, it shows a fearful team who thought there was a chance they could lose yet again despite 72minutes of being mostly dominant.

I know we’ve had a bad run and desperately needed to ‘make sure’, but I’d prefer they played with positivity, confidence and self belief.

Am I wrong?

It was tight in the end, yes, but what if we had put it out of sight with another lineout maul score?

But all that aside… marshal’s concussion was from head on head contact that apparently nobody cared about. And Berne’s score was with a forearm leading fend on Lyttle I think it was.

Pretty sloppy from ref, ref assistant and even the commentators not to pick up on either of those incidents in the last minute that almost cost Ulster the win.

Pete330v2 wrote: What has Jake Flannery brought to the party when our young number 9 gets the 10 shirt in front of him? Have we been sent another flakey 10 by Munster?

I don't think so infact the release of Madigan suggests the opposite.
Next year our 10's are Burns, Doak, Lowry and Flannery.

If Cooney goes and Addison doesn't return I cant see either Doak or Lowry getting much game time at 10.
Burns appears to be going backwards after an ok year last year - hopefully just injury but I am not convinced.

Flannery will be key.
I suspect it came down to knowing the calls and player familiarity.
Plus a desire to take a look at Doak at 10

clivemcl wrote:Has Tom Stewart surpassed Herring? Is he close?
His work rate around the park has been impressive.
Perhaps lineout throws not great, but I don’t think Herrings have been great either this season.

Ulster have 2 of the best 4 Hookers in Ireland now.
Better than anybody at Munster or Connacht.
I suspect Stewart will pass Herring next year

World Cup bolter ?

Good attitude but a worrying game.

We nearly blew it again.

Some player observation.
Stockdale, Baloucoune, Hume, Lowry, Burns have all gone backwards this year - very worrying.
No Marshall next week - I assume Moore, or Hume, if fit.
McIlroy is a smart player but his lack of speed is a career limiter - will never get near Ireland.
He had a chance Baloucoune and Stockdale would have buried in the same situation.
Doak did pretty well better than Doak at 9 in recent weeks and better than Burns at 10 in recent weeks.
I though Timoney and McCann played well.
Will someone please explain why Jones was on the bench when we could have had Sheridan.
Will someone please explain why Carter was on the bench when we could have had Izzy.
Sheridan and Izzy are the future - Ulster seem to wrap young forwards in cotton wool and it does them no favours
infact just the opposite. Leinster and Munster don't.
Henderson was immense
Carter, not for the first time, showed he is sometimes plan dumb.
Moore was destroyed by Buckley - I have never understood why Buckley did not get a crack at Ireland.
Some noticeable inferior LHs have been picked in front of him.
Milasinovich remains and always will be a chocalate teapot. The bloke doesn't know the first thing about prop play.
Total waste of, a lot of, space.
Stewart is a exceptional talent.
Sutherland will be a big help for the rest of the season - quality player

Line ups for this weekends game.
Ulster: S Moore; Baloucoune, Hume, McCloskey, Stockdale; Burns, Cooney; Sutherland, Stewart, M Moore; Treadwell, Henderson (capt); Jones, Reffell, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Andrew, O'Sullivan, Milasinovich, Carter, Murphy, Doak, Flannery, McIlroy.

Munster: Haley; Daly, Frisch, Fekitoa, Earls; Crowley, Patterson; Kilcoyne, Scannell, Salanoa; Kleyn, McDonald; O'Donoghue (capt), Kendellen, Coombes.

Replacements: Buckley, Wycherley, Archer, Hurley, O'Sullivan, Murray, Healy, Campbell.

Another absolutely appalling performance.

Make no mistake this was a very poor Munster but they still won by keeping possession and having an attacking threat.

The defense was poor again.
I know we had some manful scramble defense 5 meters from our line but the soft shoulders and missed tackles in the middle of the
pitch was as bad as I have ever seen it.
Zero organisation.

Have we ever been so toothless in attack ?
Burns, Hume, Stockdale were a complete waster of space
Baloucoune doesn't work hard enough
Who is the attack coach these days ?

Indeed Burns was one of the worse performances from a 10 Ive ever seen - he made no contribution.

Upfront, other than a couple of lineouts, was Jones on the pitch ?
Reffell put in a decent performance.
Vermuelen makes some great interventions but doesnt contribute enough (old age)
Henderson again the pick of the forwards
Stewart great round the park but some terrible throws.
As soon as Moore went off and the chocolate teapot came out the scrums struggled

We are in big trouble at TH over the 6N's
Moore almost certainly out
O'Toole with Ireland
Toomunga-Allen foot is in a boot.

That leaves us with Milasinovich  

Basically we would have to go with
EOS LH
Warwick TH
Reid - LH sub
Milasinovich - TH sub

and pray no one gets injured

Utter shambles

To compound this an utter lack of professionalism by the management team after the match

McFarland ranting and raving about the performances of the players.
I think he needs to take a good look closer to home and question the performance, and personnel, who make up
the coaching team - including himself
Apparently he ranted at Bell and Soper behind close doors

As I was walking down the stairs from my seat (Old Main stand Memorial end)
I saw Cunningham totally loose it.
Some fan had obviouly had a go at him but instead of saying something like
'Sling your hook you idiot' and walking away.
He started shouting, face went red, told all and sundry to piss off.
Complete lack of self control and a thoroughly unprofessional way to act

Our team is in crises from top to bottom.
Petrie, Cunningham and McFarland - none of them have covered themselves in glory in the last few weeks.
Looks like panic mode to me

Well, not a great start to the year. We didn't deserve to win given the lack of attack, the goal line defence was pretty good but we shouldn't have been in those positions as Geoff said.

I do think some of Geoff's post is an over-reaction, but there is no glory in a "gallant loss", especially if the winners were just the slightly less worse team. A good Munster team would have been looking at a bonus point win.

I questioned teamwork and leadership some weeks ago, and I come back to those again and again. Munster were sufficiently poor we could have seen out an undeserved win with a bit more composure. Henderson seemed do his best performance wise but was unable to elevate the rest of the team. Doak's inexperience seems to be showing, and while McCloskey played pretty well, it couldn't make up for the deficit at 10.

While performances on the field are solely down to the players, the structure and culture come from the coaching staff and that also seems to be lacking. McFarland has improved the team, but seems incapable of taking the next step up, ensuring wins in the big games. And this was a big game, even if the quality wasn't there from either side.

I keep saying to myself you are never as good as the hype when playing well, and never as bad as the doom-mongers when playing badly. At least we won't be loosing too many other than Henderson to the 6 Nations squad.

What's the latest on the injury front? Any word on Moore? Looked pretty serious.

On last nights performance, it was as bad as I've ever seen. There are certain players just aren't simply good enough for this level. Some players looked shot of any confidence such as Hume, Stockdale and Burns. And as for Treadwell, he has proved beyond doubt to me that he is nothing more than an impact player from the bench. And don't even start me on Carter. Where's Izzy???

McFarland and Cunningham also need to front up. Giving Johnny Bell the job as defence coach just stinks of jobs for the boys.

Ulster are going backwards, and fast. End of last season I thought if we can sort out the final 1/3rd of games (we gave way so many points in last 20 mins) that we would be able to compete with Leinster. Instead not only has this issue not been address, in other areas of the game we have gone backwards.

Don't really get the jobs for the boys comments, keep seeing, was Payne not a job for the boys? Wouldnt we all love to see Pienaar get a coaching role? Its only when they dont work out its critised. That said Payne started at bottom and worked his way up, Bell has never proven to be a top quality coach.

Leinster when struggling got Graham Henry in as a consultant, can we get someone in as well?

Even Eddie Jones or Richard Cockrill , a bad guy to come in temporarily and take no crap, put players in their place and let them know what hard work actually is.

I don't know if its tactics, but we cartainly look blunter in attack, apart from mauling a try, scoring from anywhere else looks unlikely. Or defense certainly looks softer. Or just effort, against Munster, Ulster didn't look like they got out of 2nd gear.

Just as an aside Reffell 43 tackles in 98 mins with 98% success rate is impressive, but no turnovers. Marcus Rea has the most tackles and turnovers. Think both should be getting more gametime and forget about Jones.

I was thinking, something I probably shouldn't do but here goes.

Yes it was utterly gutting to lose to Munster, yes we're in an even more dire situation now that we don't have a functioning tight head. If we were Munster we'd be getting some really competent injury cover but we're Ulster so in big soft, useless Gareth we must trust (absolutely not) if Tom O'Toole is to be off to IRFU camp shortly (is he injured)?
Anyway, think of Munster at the start of the season, utter rubbish, a severe dip, no commitment etc etc. They have pulled themselves together to an extent, they are nowhere near where they should be but they've improved in recent games. They aren't that 'lost cause' anymore and that's going in the right direction.....isn't it?
Think back, Munster v Ulster - 14-15.....Ulster v Munster - 15-14. In that respect are we now at a crossroads?

Up until halftime away to Leinster, Ulster were purring and taking one of the best teams in Europe to the cleaners. Then it all went to pot with that loss. The shock and trauma carried through to the Sale game. However, the hangover from the Leinster loss was still there along with the disruption which was significant. Player with only a couple of hours kip were demolished by a rampant Sale side. At the weekend Leicester, who aren't a bad side, were demolished by Sale and there was no travel disruption and sleep deprivation as an excuse. So the malaise carried on through the first half of the La Rochelle game, a game disrupted for no reason and played behind closed doors despite a lot of La Rochelle fans being allowed into the game. Ulster came back in that second half and it looked like they might have returned. The Connacht game should never have been as close as what it was and the manner of the win wasn't impressive at all. Then the Munster game, say no more.

Now I'm not making excuses, I'm just saying we're not the only Irish side that's had problems this season and hopefully, like the others, we can begin an upwards trajectory very, very soon. Without a functioning TH we're not going to begin that trajectory any time soon. Next up is a trip to Benetton, not an easy task these days but a win with a decent performance is vital now.

That's my attempt at new year positivity, I may not have succeeded at it

Pete330v2 wrote:I was thinking, something I probably shouldn't do but here goes.

Yes it was utterly gutting to lose to Munster, yes we're in an even more dire situation now that we don't have a functioning tight head. If we were Munster we'd be getting some really competent injury cover but we're Ulster so in big soft, useless Gareth we must trust (absolutely not) if Tom O'Toole is to be off to IRFU camp shortly (is he injured)?
Anyway, think of Munster at the start of the season, utter rubbish, a severe dip, no commitment etc etc. They have pulled themselves together to an extent, they are nowhere near where they should be but they've improved in recent games. They aren't that 'lost cause' anymore and that's going in the right direction.....isn't it?
Think back, Munster v Ulster - 14-15.....Ulster v Munster - 15-14. In that respect are we now at a crossroads?

Up until halftime away to Leinster, Ulster were purring and taking one of the best teams in Europe to the cleaners. Then it all went to pot with that loss. The shock and trauma carried through to the Sale game. However, the hangover from the Leinster loss was still there along with the disruption which was significant. Player with only a couple of hours kip were demolished by a rampant Sale side. At the weekend Leicester, who aren't a bad side, were demolished by Sale and there was no travel disruption and sleep deprivation as an excuse. So the malaise carried on through the first half of the La Rochelle game, a game disrupted for no reason and played behind closed doors despite a lot of La Rochelle fans being allowed into the game. Ulster came back in that second half and it looked like they might have returned. The Connacht game should never have been as close as what it was and the manner of the win wasn't impressive at all. Then the Munster game, say no more.

Now I'm not making excuses, I'm just saying we're not the only Irish side that's had problems this season and hopefully, like the others, we can begin an upwards trajectory very, very soon. Without a functioning TH we're not going to begin that trajectory any time soon. Next up is a trip to Benetton, not an easy task these days but a win with a decent performance is vital now.

That's my attempt at new year positivity, I may not have succeeded at it  

Not sure you can say the IRFU favours munster. John Ryan is from Munster and McDonald was there because Synman, Ahern, Wycherley and Edogbo are all injured and Beirne needed a rest.

Ulster have signed Kitshoff for next season while Munster have been denied signing front rows.

Sale are a really good side this season. They've taken the physical aspects of the game they've had for a couple of seasons now and added a multi faceted attack. They have off games occasionally but are pretty rampant and unrelenting when in the front foot. No shame in losing to them though I would note that Tigers played around 30 mins of that game without a flyhalf and only one centre due to injuries.

Did Johnny Bell work with McFarland previously? One replacing the other at Glasgow?

Odd to see you guys suddenly dip having looked good last season and start this one well.

profitius wrote:

Not sure you can say the IRFU favours munster. John Ryan is from Munster and McDonald was there because Synman, Ahern, Wycherley and Edogbo are all injured and Beirne needed a rest.

Ulster have signed Kitshoff for next season while Munster have been denied signing front rows.

Absolutely true about Kitshoff but by the same token there is a possibility he will be the only NIQ at Ulster (I believe it will be 2 not 1)
Ulster also have no players qualified or qualifying through residency

I'll wager Munster will have more NIQ players than that.
Ulster were favoured in the Pienaer, Payne, Muller, Afoa era but those days are long gone and very much the third province in the last 7-8 years.
That is even taking into account the odd show boater - like Piatau who was a monumental waste of money.

profitius wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:I was thinking, something I probably shouldn't do but here goes.

Yes it was utterly gutting to lose to Munster, yes we're in an even more dire situation now that we don't have a functioning tight head. If we were Munster we'd be getting some really competent injury cover but we're Ulster so in big soft, useless Gareth we must trust (absolutely not) if Tom O'Toole is to be off to IRFU camp shortly (is he injured)?
Anyway, think of Munster at the start of the season, utter rubbish, a severe dip, no commitment etc etc. They have pulled themselves together to an extent, they are nowhere near where they should be but they've improved in recent games. They aren't that 'lost cause' anymore and that's going in the right direction.....isn't it?
Think back, Munster v Ulster - 14-15.....Ulster v Munster - 15-14. In that respect are we now at a crossroads?

Up until halftime away to Leinster, Ulster were purring and taking one of the best teams in Europe to the cleaners. Then it all went to pot with that loss. The shock and trauma carried through to the Sale game. However, the hangover from the Leinster loss was still there along with the disruption which was significant. Player with only a couple of hours kip were demolished by a rampant Sale side. At the weekend Leicester, who aren't a bad side, were demolished by Sale and there was no travel disruption and sleep deprivation as an excuse. So the malaise carried on through the first half of the La Rochelle game, a game disrupted for no reason and played behind closed doors despite a lot of La Rochelle fans being allowed into the game. Ulster came back in that second half and it looked like they might have returned. The Connacht game should never have been as close as what it was and the manner of the win wasn't impressive at all. Then the Munster game, say no more.

Now I'm not making excuses, I'm just saying we're not the only Irish side that's had problems this season and hopefully, like the others, we can begin an upwards trajectory very, very soon. Without a functioning TH we're not going to begin that trajectory any time soon. Next up is a trip to Benetton, not an easy task these days but a win with a decent performance is vital now.

That's my attempt at new year positivity, I may not have succeeded at it  

Not sure you can say the IRFU favours munster. John Ryan is from Munster and McDonald was there because Synman, Ahern, Wycherley and Edogbo are all injured and Beirne needed a rest.

Ulster have signed Kitshoff for next season while Munster have been denied signing front rows.

Don't think Munster have been denied any front row signing. Have let a few go, but that was their or their finances not the IRFU

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Odd to see you guys suddenly dip having looked good last season and start this one well.

We did not start the year well we just played crap sides.

Sorry to say but Connacht, Ospreys, Scarlets, Zebre and early season Munster were awful.
Bit of a pass against Lions given altitude.

Our form hasn't dipped - the quality of the opposition has gone up a notch

profitius wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:I was thinking, something I probably shouldn't do but here goes.

Yes it was utterly gutting to lose to Munster, yes we're in an even more dire situation now that we don't have a functioning tight head. If we were Munster we'd be getting some really competent injury cover but we're Ulster so in big soft, useless Gareth we must trust (absolutely not) if Tom O'Toole is to be off to IRFU camp shortly (is he injured)?
Anyway, think of Munster at the start of the season, utter rubbish, a severe dip, no commitment etc etc. They have pulled themselves together to an extent, they are nowhere near where they should be but they've improved in recent games. They aren't that 'lost cause' anymore and that's going in the right direction.....isn't it?
Think back, Munster v Ulster - 14-15.....Ulster v Munster - 15-14. In that respect are we now at a crossroads?

Up until halftime away to Leinster, Ulster were purring and taking one of the best teams in Europe to the cleaners. Then it all went to pot with that loss. The shock and trauma carried through to the Sale game. However, the hangover from the Leinster loss was still there along with the disruption which was significant. Player with only a couple of hours kip were demolished by a rampant Sale side. At the weekend Leicester, who aren't a bad side, were demolished by Sale and there was no travel disruption and sleep deprivation as an excuse. So the malaise carried on through the first half of the La Rochelle game, a game disrupted for no reason and played behind closed doors despite a lot of La Rochelle fans being allowed into the game. Ulster came back in that second half and it looked like they might have returned. The Connacht game should never have been as close as what it was and the manner of the win wasn't impressive at all. Then the Munster game, say no more.

Now I'm not making excuses, I'm just saying we're not the only Irish side that's had problems this season and hopefully, like the others, we can begin an upwards trajectory very, very soon. Without a functioning TH we're not going to begin that trajectory any time soon. Next up is a trip to Benetton, not an easy task these days but a win with a decent performance is vital now.

That's my attempt at new year positivity, I may not have succeeded at it  

Not sure you can say the IRFU favours munster. John Ryan is from Munster and McDonald was there because Synman, Ahern, Wycherley and Edogbo are all injured and Beirne needed a rest.

Ulster have signed Kitshoff for next season while Munster have been denied signing front rows.

Don't think Munster have been denied any front row signing. Have let a few go, but that was their or their finances not the IRFU

[quote="geoff999rugby"]

profitius wrote:

Not sure you can say the IRFU favours munster. John Ryan is from Munster and McDonald was there because Synman, Ahern, Wycherley and Edogbo are all injured and Beirne needed a rest.

Ulster have signed Kitshoff for next season while Munster have been denied signing front rows.

Our signing of Kitshoff is hardly any kind of leveler. In recent years when Munster have had an injury crisis in a position there's been ample cover supplied. Ulster at the moment are in need of some TH cover if Marty's injury keeps him out for any amount of time. We can't be expected to flog Tom O'Toole because the others that wear a 3 on their backs are wastes of contracts. Actually Prof, you've answered your own question with your comment. Cheers

Kingshu wrote:  
Don't really get the jobs for the boys comments, keep seeing, was Payne not a job for the boys? Wouldnt we all love to see Pienaar get a coaching role? Its only when they dont work out its critised. That said Payne started at bottom and worked his way up, Bell has never proven to be a top quality coach.

I think the jobs for the boys comment is chiefly about people born and bred here.
It is far too cozy.

Exemplified by Rory Best saying we should not have signed Sutherland as Warwick was as good.
Andrew Warwick is a great servant of Ulster rugby but as good as a Lion - sorry Rory you are talking through your hole.

The other thing we do is never put young talent under pressure.
If they are good enough they will make the grade.
Our best backrow in Marcus Rea, Vermuelen, Timoney
After that we should be giving game time to McCann and Sheridan not journeymen like Jones and Matty Rea.
Greg Jones is a threat to nobody in terms of contending for a starting spot.
6 years of a cushy contract being picked in front of young players who have the potential to go further.
Sure young lads will make mistakes but we should not be afraid of that - that is how they learn.

Too much acceptance of playing it safe mediocrity.
When the systems break down the lack of genuine talent with reasonable first XV experience comes back to bit as it is now.

Any updates on the injury front?

Do the other provinces see their international stars have such dips in performances at club level? Can anyone give me an Irish Internationals name of Stockdale's calibre who is or has been performing at Stockdale's current standard?
Maybe I don't pay enough attention...

I just thought a club should have their always trusted few stars, surrounded by a squad that can hopefully be good enough to work with them.
If you're stars don't play like stars, then your entire match day squad will be lacking.

Here's my observation. Possibly ridiculous - feel free to tell me.
In McFarlands early days I believe I saw Ulster play with the mindset 'Play like you believe you will win - always back yourself'.
I believe McFarland's message to the team was that playing it safe was the first step in lacking self-belief.

Perhaps he was right - winners have a winning mentality.

You would see this in players creativity, backing themselves, throwing offloads, and often times, going for line out mauls rather than kicking points.


Where is that message now?
Well I believe the team have just given up - they no longer believe they are winners - they see themselves as fighting to stay above mediocre. They just want to remain in the conversation, but don't see themselves as top of the tree.

Look at the Connacht game - 71st minute Ulster are leading 19-8 and had looked good at times.
With penalty, they chose to take the 3 points. It's my belief that Ulster of previous seasons would have followed their mantra and believed they could get a maul score from the line out and finish the game off.
Just because the 3 points proved to be vital in the final scoreline doesn't justify what I see as a backwards mentality.
That was a call made by a team in fear that they would lose a game yet again - rather than a team that felt they were simply having poor patch they believed they would bounce back from.

Ulster are rattled. Confidence is shot.

clivemcl wrote:Here's my observation. Possibly ridiculous - feel free to tell me.
In McFarlands early days I believe I saw Ulster play with the mindset 'Play like you believe you will win - always back yourself'.
I believe McFarland's message to the team was that playing it safe was the first step in lacking self-belief.

Perhaps he was right - winners have a winning mentality.

You would see this in players creativity, backing themselves, throwing offloads, and often times, going for line out mauls rather than kicking points.


Where is that message now?
Well I believe the team have just given up - they no longer believe they are winners - they see themselves as fighting to stay above mediocre. They just want to remain in the conversation, but don't see themselves as top of the tree.

Look at the Connacht game - 71st minute Ulster are leading 19-8 and had looked good at times.
With penalty, they chose to take the 3 points. It's my belief that Ulster of previous seasons would have followed their mantra and believed they could get a maul score from the line out and finish the game off.
Just because the 3 points proved to be vital in the final scoreline doesn't justify what I see as a backwards mentality.
That was a call made by a team in fear that they would lose a game yet again - rather than a team that felt they were simply having  poor patch they believed they would bounce back from.

Ulster are rattled. Confidence is shot.

That's not ridiculous at all Clive, I'd have to agree, there's a mentality shift and even the players who always had an air of confidence have lost their strut. This comes down to coaching, someone said that McFarland has lost the changing room. If this is the case he'd be better moving on, regaining the confidence of disillusioned and demoralised players is a mountain for any coach to climb.
I do hope it's a blip and we can see a shift back to what we were getting used to. I think that'll happen but this current rut needs put behind them before it becomes a chasm.

Agreed a good post Clive with much truth in it.

I simply don't believe it is credible that just about every back has lost form at the same time.
That rings alarm bells about the coaching.
I honestly dont think the players know what is expected of them - attack or defense.

Goes back to jobs for the boys issue - maybe just maybe the Ulstermen on the coaching team aren't up to the job.
Bell and Soper.
I have tended to keep quiet about Soper because a number of people tell me how good he is.
Quite frankly I dont see it

As a result I do think the players have lost faith in the coaching set up,Payne was highly thought of by the squad,
and as a result McFarland may well have 'lost the dressing room'

I think its coaching as well, there was a very intresting article on tweeter by someone which showed that last season Ulster were terrible in the last 20 mins, they gave up so many points that a lot of games ended up close, or they lost them from winning positions, the Connacht and Munster results aren't new, even sharks last year 24-7 up with 5 mins to go finishing a nail biting 24-21, wasnt new then, either was a well known weakness all though last season and it still hasn't been address. Add to that and our attack (bar mauls) is blunt and defence terrible and its the coaches that are the issue.

On Soper, I think he may have gone like the Peter principle, where he gets promoted untill he reaches a position he isnt so good at, think when back as skills coach Ulsters handling was a lot better, and he did a great job there, as senior coach, maybe not as effective.

Please bring in someone, Munster got highly rated coaches, we got Bell? What about Rob Howley, hes at a lose end?

On the Munster game for the tackleing Reffell 39 tackles, an Ulster record and 2nd most recorded in Celtic league history, team made 290, a team record and 3rd highest ever in Celtic league. Last season AoC and Timoney were the two players that made the most tackles in the league. Is this a tactic? Tackle them into submission? I thought its better to make other teams tackle?

The news of Ben Healy leaving Munster for Edinburgh got me thinking....
in terms of Ireland, we have 4 provinces - and yet where would we rank Billy Burns in all the out-halves in Ireland right now...

and is that really good enough for a club with Ulster's ambitions?