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England - what next?

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England - what next? Empty England - what next?

Post by hugehandoff Sat 06 Feb 2021, 6:48 pm

Firstly I take nothing away from Scotland who were fantastic and I hope go on to win a grand slam.

For me this dire England performance may well be a blessing in disguise. Us winning the Autumn cup playing such awful rugby only covered up a number of cracks. We have nothing in attack and our discipline is consistently the worst in the world. We are saved by our defence.

Ok we were missing some props which taught us that Genge is not quite there. Plus Stuart very quiet in the loose. Mako making his usual 21 tackles would have helped. No need to panic, but Eddie has to accept that this is not just a blip but a reflection of recent dire performances. You cannot win matches giving away so many penalties and that is a recurring issue. And he chose to start all those rusty Sarries players who all looked off the pace. Why not start Cowan-Dickie?

But the midfield is dire and Farrell a real problem there. Just not good enough. I remember Eddie being ruthless and taking Luther Burrell off after 25 minutes against the Aussies. We needed that ruthless streak today and Ford should have replaced Farrell with 20 to go. Itoje a penalty machine but because he is normally a machine and plays the full 80 Eddie did not react.

Time for England to take a good hard look at this team and shake it up (not panic, but a decent shakeup).

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 06 Feb 2021, 7:05 pm

Well the aim now is to simply win the 6 nations. Should be aiming at winning the next games but clearly to me youngs needs to be dropped out of sight. Back row needs to be willis curry and earls. Curry clearly fighting an uphill battle today pushing too much but doing the work of 3 men. Presumably we're stick now with that initial squad so Wilson lucky to be kept when Dombrandt could normally be considered. Daly has to be dropped. Guess that means that Malins is the only option really.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:39 pm

The entire England back division were outplayed by the Scotland back line. None of the backs produced even a competent performance, much of which was attributable to Scotland's performance.

For England, with a limited squad size, there are not many options for the next match against Italy.
Will Youngs sit next week? Doubtful. But Randall on the bench for Robson? Perhaps. But will he get game time?
Ford over Farrell? Possibly. Especially because it is Italy.
Odogwu over Lawrence? Hard to tell because Lawrence only had the ball once. That was clearly a Farrell problem.
Malins over Daly? I think that is likely, if only to show (almost) no one is immune from benching.

That's all we gots in the backs.

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Post by The Oracle Sat 06 Feb 2021, 11:15 pm

Italy
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Post by Mr Bounce Sat 06 Feb 2021, 11:40 pm

The way I would do it is to drop the main problems from today's game. Farrell, Youngs, Daly and Vunipola should all be removed as far from the next game as is possible. They were dreadful. Youngs passing to nobody should have seen him hauled off. Farrell kicking away everything to a team who relished running it back at us should have seen him removed after 30 minutes. Daly's impersonation of a revolving door against VDM would have seen him ejected from my school Under 14s, let alone the full England side. And Billy was about as effective as I would be at No8. I haven't played there since 1987, and I was rubbish back then! The kick-chase game plan is done. It's not working. Let's play some heads up rugby shall we?

We are limited on changes though given the size of the squad. Plus Jones is so pig-headed the same old dross may get played again next week to prove a point that they can't mess it up twice in a row. Still, there are changes that could be made easily, so this is what I would do to inject a bit more fizz into the game:

1. Genge (not much choice really. Felt Obano was overawed by the occasion)
2. Cowan-Dickie - our best front row forward by a country mile.
3. Stuart - again, not much choice here. I though Williams was anonymous.
4. Itoje (captain - didn't do too much wrong apart from penalties)
5. Lawes - PLEASE not at 6 again.
6. Curry - tried hard but had a bag of garbage to deal with
7. Willis - he will take his chance.
8. Earl - in any other team he'd be straight in somewhere in the back row. THE on form player.
9. Randall - if not him, why not? Why is he in the squad otherwise?
10. Ford - with strict instructions to not kick it aimlessly downfield.
11. May - just a blip, surely?
12. Lawrence. With a bit of ball he might actually get somewhere.
13. Odogwu - let him carve up and create things.
14. Watson. He's way better than today's game.
15. Malins - Daly's had his chance. Let's see what the young 'un can do.#

16. George - nobody else, but maybe a bench slot will concentrate his mind a bit.
17. Obano
18. Williams, although I cannot wait to get Sinckler back.
19. Ewels - give him a chance over Hill who was poor. We are missing Launchbury.
20. Wilson. Anyone but Billy again.
21. Robson. That box-kick does not allow him to start the game.
22. Slade. Useful bench player, but not ideal. Malins to cover 10 if Ford gets injured.
23. Joseph. Bring him in from the shadow squad. Never lets England down and has a habit of scoring against Italy.

None of this will ever happen, but something has to...

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 06 Feb 2021, 11:51 pm

Like Farrell, Youngs, Slade and Vunipola will be dropped...lol

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 07 Feb 2021, 12:28 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Like Farrell, Youngs, Slade and Vunipola will be dropped...lol
Agree, the same odds the government will need a third lockdown............oh sh*t.  They all need to sit, but doubt it will happen.  Farrell and Youngs on the bench? Maybe. Billy Cheeseburger needs to sit for sure.

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Post by tigertattie Sun 07 Feb 2021, 12:48 am

It’s Eddie that needs to carry the can. His selections are mind boggling

Farrell is rotten. Ford a much better 10 and has been playing this season. There’s Marcus smith too.
George hasn’t been playing. Cowan-Dickie has
Billy is passed it and not played in months. Simmonds is the euro player of the year for crying out loud
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Post by king_carlos Sun 07 Feb 2021, 2:40 am

Whilst I rate both Odogwu and Lawrence the pair together in the midfield would be as unbalanced as Farrell and Slade but for different reasons. Important to remember that Odogwu works at 13 for a side which customarily plays 3 fly-halves in their backline with Odogwu/Atkinson at 10, Gopperth at 12 and Sopoaga at 15.

1.Genge
2.Cowan-Dickie
3.Stuart
4.Itoje
5.Lawes
6.Willis
7.Curry
8.Earl

9.Randall
10.Ford

11.May
12.Farrell
13.Lawrence
14.Watson
15.Malins

16.George
17.Obano
18.Williams
19.Hill
20.Wilson
21.Youngs
22.Odogwu
23.Daly

I'd like to see something like that against Italy.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 07 Feb 2021, 7:16 am

Well it is back to the drawing board for England now the chance of the Grand Slam as gone.
England was defending champions, ha, how dare they think Scotland would be a pushover?

The scoreboard does not reflect the whole game, Scotland dominated England all through the game...There is a possibility England may still win the tournament but if they play like they did yesterday, then NO, they will not win anything.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sun 07 Feb 2021, 8:30 am

What tactics is England actually playing...as i havent seen any clue since thw world cup final.

Its almost like gi e all possession to the opposition defend then attack. The only problem is...theres been absolutely nocattack whatsoever....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 07 Feb 2021, 8:40 am

Given its italy next I was always thinking that Odogwu and randall would get some game time but I'm hoping that jones doesnt now think the same team need the chance to put things right! I'd say again that theres a few players lucky that the squad is set on stone due to covid.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sun 07 Feb 2021, 8:58 am

V Italy

1 Genge (Needs to start putting in a performance)
2 LCD
3 Stuart
4 Itoje
5 Lawes
6 Curry
7 Willis
8 Earl

9 Randall
10 Smith
11 May
12 Slade
13 Lawrence
14 Odogwu
15 Steward

Sorted Very Happy

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 07 Feb 2021, 8:58 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:What tactics is England actually playing...as i havent seen any clue since thw world cup final.

Its almost like gi e all possession to the opposition defend then attack. The only problem is...theres been absolutely nocattack whatsoever....

I'm surprised we were still in the game come 75 minutes. As you say there was no sign of attack for the vast majority of the game, dont mind kicking but there was none of the variety that in the past has put May away down the wing etc.

Saw comments saying that the moments which deflated england were the long punts from Hogg pinning us back after brief forays which is true. We did similar to ourselves though with the brain dead sealing off from Hill and youngs passing to space.

I suspect normally the management would look to some positives.. I guess 1 is we'll play better in the remaining games, defence still looked good bar silly pens. Struggling after that bar it should force a change to key positions and with that players who will naturally look to running opportunities when they're on.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 07 Feb 2021, 9:03 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:What tactics is England actually playing...as i havent seen any clue since thw world cup final.

Its almost like gi e all possession to the opposition defend then attack. The only problem is...theres been absolutely nocattack whatsoever....

Carry-carry-kick-chase-tackle-tackle-concede penalty-march back x100.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sun 07 Feb 2021, 9:11 am

Pretty much Duty...

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 07 Feb 2021, 10:22 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:V Italy

1 Genge (Needs to start putting in a performance)
2 LCD
3 Stuart
4 Itoje
5 Lawes
6 Curry
7 Willis
8 Earl

9 Randall
10 Smith
11 May
12 Slade
13 Lawrence
14 Odogwu
15 Steward

Sorted Very Happy

Can't call up some of those players because of the additional Covid requirements including Smith and Steward. How we could have done with Steward to sweep up at the back.

I'd like to see:

Genge, LCD, Stuart - give the props chance to make amends.
Itoje, Hill - because that combination does have promise.
Curry, Willis, Earl - try to stop the defensive effort being such a poopie show and be mobile in attack.
Youngs, Ford - a combination that works.
Lawrence, Odogwu - all the power and pace.
Daly, Watson, Mallins - secondary playmaker at fullback with some Lions wingers to ease him in.

George, Obano, Sinckler/Williams, Lawes, Vunipola, Randall, Slade, May.

Best we can hope for but sadly Farrell will still be in there somewhere like a turd that won't flush.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 07 Feb 2021, 10:30 am

Sam even you have to start not including youngs in your team!

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Post by Guy4 Sun 07 Feb 2021, 11:37 am

Hey Eddie...how about you sit down and watch the England Baabaas match from 2015..
See Eddie..OK OK, I know this is from 2015 and its only a Barbs match BUT my point is look at what happens when you play heads up rugby and give the backs a chance to play!! This was
a fascinating backline that day.. Cips @ 10, Slade @ 12, Daly @ 13 and my goodness look at Wade go... what a waste..the same way May & Watson were wasted yesterday!! Farrell out and Ford in! Let's see what happens hey Eddie!

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Post by hugehandoff Sun 07 Feb 2021, 11:54 am

Agree with many of the proposed changes for the Italy fixture. Apart from everyone raising their game and reducing the penalty count (LD writes that SCW used to say that it is very hard to win matches when you concede 10 penalties and we had 15 yesterday) I would also welcome the following changes.

Genge - no alternative and hopefully will improve
LCD - in decent form and needs to start
Stuart - needs more experience, but Sinckler to return when he can
Maro - needs to grip his penalty count
Lawes - quality player
Curry
Willis
Earls
Randall - time to see what he has
Ford - has to replace Farrell
May - will be much better
Lawrence - give him some ball
Slade - quality player and also needs some ball
Watson
Malins

Bench
Obano
George
Williams
Hill
Billy V
Robson
Farrell
Daly - covers so many positions

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Post by Mr Bounce Sun 07 Feb 2021, 11:56 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Like Farrell, Youngs, Slade and Vunipola will be dropped...lol

I did say this: "None of this will ever happen, but something has to..."

It's nice to dream. I just hope that Eddie does mix it up a bit. Farrell appears to be in a massive slump, Billy's not the player he was, all Youngs does is kick (and pass to nobody) and Daly is a revolving door tackle wise. FFS DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT EDDIE!! mad

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Post by hugehandoff Sun 07 Feb 2021, 12:40 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Like Farrell, Youngs, Slade and Vunipola will be dropped...lol

I did say this: "None of this will ever happen, but something has to..."

It's nice to dream. I just hope that Eddie does mix it up a bit. Farrell appears to be in a massive slump, Billy's not the player he was, all Youngs does is kick (and pass to nobody) and Daly is a revolving door tackle wise. FFS DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT EDDIE!! mad

Fully agree with you and also that Eddie will probably make no changes. When he does give a debut to someone it will probably be in a much more difficult away fixture. Why use the home Italy fixture to try something new? Foolish thinking.

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Post by hugehandoff Sun 07 Feb 2021, 12:41 pm

BTW if Dean Richards or Rob Baxter would agree to take over who would like this to happen?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 07 Feb 2021, 1:10 pm

Are people seriously wanting Jones to be sacked?

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 07 Feb 2021, 1:13 pm

I think it might not matter who plays if England continue to play the same style, especially as we presume the team is not allowed to go off script when Plan A is failing. I say that but still believe Jack Willis needs to be playing, Farrell and Billy V. need to sit.

It's funny, as I write this I am watching Newcastle-Exeter. The Simmonds boys...

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 07 Feb 2021, 1:21 pm

Sam Simmonds just scored....

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Post by eirebilly Sun 07 Feb 2021, 1:21 pm

Was it such a bad game plan from England or were the players not match fit enough to effectively deploy the game plan?

It was very clear that the Sarries players were well off match fitness.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Sun 07 Feb 2021, 1:40 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:V Italy

1 Genge (Needs to start putting in a performance)
2 LCD
3 Stuart
4 Itoje
5 Lawes
6 Curry
7 Willis
8 Earl

9 Randall
10 Smith
11 May
12 Slade
13 Lawrence
14 Odogwu
15 Steward

Sorted Very Happy

Can't call up some of those players.

Yeah i know, but i do think Steward should be there and how is Smith not even in the equation.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 07 Feb 2021, 1:52 pm

eirebilly wrote:Was it such a bad game plan from England or were the players not match fit enough to effectively deploy the game plan?

It was very clear that the Sarries players were well off match fitness.
I think it's all of this. Scotland shut down Plan A and there was no Plan B. Also, the player selection was not right. As, likely, was the game preparation - they must have practiced giving away penalties, they were good at it!

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 07 Feb 2021, 2:05 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sam even you have to start not including youngs in your team!

Nope. I think there's generally an anyone but Youngs/Ford/Farrell feeling because of the boring way we play under Eddie. Youngs was our only spark in attack yesterday the off 9 attack which took us up to the try line before two forwards ran lines not wanting the ball Youngs left hanging in front of them. Then the break where he was tripped looked to be finally opening up Scotland before it faltered.

I'd start Youngs but start developing Randall with lengthy appearances off the bench. On 50 mins Youngs comes off and Randall comes on. Especially as the next game is Italy. If we pick a half decent team then the game should be win by 50 mins so Randall can make his debut under no real pressure and settle in. Show his attacking class as the game opens up.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 07 Feb 2021, 2:48 pm

Wow. The tigers support is strong with you!

Think I'd just start randall tbh. Show us what you can do from the off. Play your game but show you've got the control.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sun 07 Feb 2021, 3:18 pm

But Randall is talented pacy and can play whats in front of him...

He needs more time for Eddie to train that out of him.

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Post by rosbif Sun 07 Feb 2021, 3:58 pm

I like Geordie Falcons team for me there is a road block at 2, 8, 9 , 10 ,15 most of them are Sarries not surprising as they haven't played for 2 months.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 07 Feb 2021, 5:46 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wow. The tigers support is strong with you!

Think I'd just start randall tbh. Show us what you can do from the off. Play your game but show you've got the control.

Oh if you think it don't criticise Youngs then you are sorely mistaken. There was a time a couple of years ago when his name was preceded by profanity in my house. Honestly he was the least of our problems yesterday.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 07 Feb 2021, 6:17 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah i know, but i do think Steward should be there and how is Smith not even in the equation.
Smith and Alex Mitchell are two players who I think deserve to be there. Talented and young guys in positions where we need different tactical options.

Simmonds I would have called up with Billy V being short of game time but that one concerns me less as I think Earl and Willis are excellent options already around the squad who deserve starts.

There are good talents at 15, lead by Hodge and Steward, as well as 9 with Mitchell, Sam Maunder, Ollie Fox and Jack van Poortvliet all bright prospects. All are better off getting game time with their clubs at the minute though. By the end of this season Steward will have a reasonable level of senior rugby under his belt and I'd hope he will be involved next season.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 07 Feb 2021, 7:09 pm

Not so sure about Alex Mitchell at the moment. He is improving, but he still takes that small hop step before passing which slows things down a bit. He does look to run which is good aggressive Rugby. Let him continue to (hopefully) improve the rest of the season, then we can see. The good news is there are a number of good young prospects across the pitch on the horizon and no one (no one, Eddie) should be so secure.

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Post by TightHEAD Sun 07 Feb 2021, 7:15 pm

1.Genge
2.Cowan-Dickie
3.Stuart
4.Itoje
5.Lawes
6.Willis
7.Curry
8.Earl

9.Randall
10.Smith

11.May
12.Farrell
13.Lawrence
14.Watson
15.Malins

16.Dunn
17.Obano
18.Williams
19.Hill
20.S.Simmons
21.Spencer
22.Odogwu
23.Daly
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Post by No9 Sun 07 Feb 2021, 7:21 pm

Time England got a new coach.... Want Pivac ? ........... please

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 07 Feb 2021, 8:00 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:V Italy

1 Genge (Needs to start putting in a performance)
2 LCD
3 Stuart
4 Itoje
5 Lawes
6 Curry
7 Willis
8 Earl

9 Randall
10 Smith
11 May
12 Slade
13 Lawrence
14 Odogwu
15 Steward

Sorted Very Happy

Can't call up some of those players.

Yeah i know, but i do think Steward should be there and how is Smith not even in the equation.


I'd have Smith over Umaga every day of the week. Steward should be in there but right now I'm happy he's not. Keeps him away from the negativity surrounding this England team and he'd also help cover up Eddie's crappy tactics if he was in there. Plus Tigers really need him at present he's been an absolute rock for us this season.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 07 Feb 2021, 8:01 pm

No9 wrote:Time England got a new coach.... Want Pivac ? ........... please
We simply couldn't accept. You are far to generous.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 07 Feb 2021, 9:52 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
No9 wrote:Time England got a new coach.... Want Pivac ? ........... please
We simply couldn't accept.  You are far to generous.

If Jones were to go I'd want us to pursue.

1. Rob Baxter
2. Jamie Joseph
3. Pat Lam

Pivac wouldn't feature. I did like how his Scarlets team played but he seems like a better coach than an international head coach which seems to be a far different kettle of fish.

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Post by nlpnlp Sun 07 Feb 2021, 10:18 pm

I don't really see much point in making lots of player changes, that is just like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.  The main issue is the tactics, or lack of them that England have.

Whichever team we put out against Italy we should win quite comfortably.  If any players need to play then it is surely the Sarries players.

7&1/2 asked "Are people seriously wanting Jones to be sacked?"  This was Eddies 6th 6 Nations.  We seem to have as many question marks around the backrow, halfbacks, centres and fullback as we have at any point.  We seem to have no discernible tactics.  The team has been in decline since the world cup, not building or progressing.  A couple more performances like that then I think we would be stupid not be asking the question - is Eddie the real deal or is it all just the Emperor's new clothes.  The performance against New Zealand in the World Cup was good, but you can't live on that forever.

If Eddie did go, then I would love to see Pat Lam given a chance.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 07 Feb 2021, 10:45 pm

Pat Lam - everything good he learned in Rugby he learned playing Number 8 for Saints!!!!!!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 08 Feb 2021, 8:27 am

Jones isnt a new kid on the block so emperors new clothes doesnt come into this. He obviously makes mistakes and we all have our views on what those are.

I dont think he ever thought the pack would not generate front foot ball but that was with 2 very good flankers, launchbury/lawes/kruis and a fit vunipola in it.

Hes limited with what he can do with selection but fortunate his squad contains guys whose strengths we were missing on Saturday.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 08 Feb 2021, 9:52 am

Forgot sinckler is a available again too.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 08 Feb 2021, 9:54 am

hugehandoff wrote:BTW if Dean Richards or Rob Baxter would agree to take over who would like this to happen?

Dear god not Dean. Im a falcon...and his tactics are awful...bewildering. As are his selection methods...

Actually thinking about it...hes a perfect replacement for Eddie....

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 08 Feb 2021, 9:59 am

doctor_grey wrote:Pat Lam - everything good he learned in Rugby he learned playing Number 8 for Saints!!!!!!

Dont be silly...he learned that with the Falcons Wink

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Post by lostinwales Mon 08 Feb 2021, 10:37 am

I'd love to see an England team without Farrell. I think that none of the Saracens players except for Itoje should start at the moment.

England are very tough to beat still - the defence is awesome. But we seem very predictable and lead footed. Stale. Kicking when done well can be fantastic, but it feels like we have stopped competing and are just giving the ball back. The penalty count was just stupid. There may well have been a failure to communicate with the ref (and I am still not sure why Itoje was penalised for the first penalty) but there really wasn't an excuse.

We weren't like this before, but there has been no invention for several games. The tries that have come seem to owe more to individual brilliance than anything else.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 08 Feb 2021, 10:46 am

For me Jones should be considering Malins at 10. Hes much more of a threat there and its his natural position and hes much more experienced there. Him and Randall would offer something completely different. As ever with England we have so many options to play differently but this stats thing about 6 phases and kick doesn't allow us. Can you imagine the england pack then

Randall Malins
May Farrell Ogdogwu Watson
Daly (yuck but Im trying to stay with the squad)

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 08 Feb 2021, 11:07 am

lostinwales wrote:I'd love to see an England team without Farrell. .

I think a few would now to be honest. I keep hearing that his lack of real creative flair is balanced by his leadership...and yet im really not seeing this leadership.

Itoje and Curry were the only two actually fighting out there on Saturday. Farrell was nowhere to be seen. And some of his decision making with ball in hand is a concern.

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