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England - what next?

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Post by hugehandoff Sat 06 Feb 2021, 6:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Firstly I take nothing away from Scotland who were fantastic and I hope go on to win a grand slam.

For me this dire England performance may well be a blessing in disguise. Us winning the Autumn cup playing such awful rugby only covered up a number of cracks. We have nothing in attack and our discipline is consistently the worst in the world. We are saved by our defence.

Ok we were missing some props which taught us that Genge is not quite there. Plus Stuart very quiet in the loose. Mako making his usual 21 tackles would have helped. No need to panic, but Eddie has to accept that this is not just a blip but a reflection of recent dire performances. You cannot win matches giving away so many penalties and that is a recurring issue. And he chose to start all those rusty Sarries players who all looked off the pace. Why not start Cowan-Dickie?

But the midfield is dire and Farrell a real problem there. Just not good enough. I remember Eddie being ruthless and taking Luther Burrell off after 25 minutes against the Aussies. We needed that ruthless streak today and Ford should have replaced Farrell with 20 to go. Itoje a penalty machine but because he is normally a machine and plays the full 80 Eddie did not react.

Time for England to take a good hard look at this team and shake it up (not panic, but a decent shakeup).

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 09 Feb 2021, 4:14 pm

THIS is the type of leadership England need, the polar opposite of today:

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/foden-reveals-how-hartley-punch-sparked-mujati-life-saints-3127711

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 09 Feb 2021, 5:17 pm

doctor_grey wrote:THIS is the type of leadership England need, the polar opposite of today:

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/foden-reveals-how-hartley-punch-sparked-mujati-life-saints-3127711

Physios are going to be busy if every underperforming player seemingly there on a jolly is going to get a split eye. Is Farrell going to lamp the biggest underperformer first because if he does then he'll have to be throwing punches with one eye closed up himself.

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Post by hugehandoff Tue 09 Feb 2021, 5:34 pm

27th Feb away V Wales....no disrespect to Italy....is the next proper challenge and who do you think should be in this XV?

If you bring back Mako and Sincks then surely they have to start V Italy to get match practice? With Mako you normally would have been tempted to return him to his club during the 2 week break to get match fit, but assuming Sarries don't even have a match? 2nd row has to be Maro and Hill/Lawes and I am not fussed which one starts.

We all agree that Billy is off his game so I would play Simmons, but as that won't happen it should be Earls. But if Eddie retains Billy to take on his cousin then he needs to play against Italy to whip him into shape. We would all drop Farrell as well and I would be happy for Ford to start in Wales. Ollie and Slade in the centres and give them a chance. Watson and May on the wings and Malins at 15. Give this a run against Italy and a proper test in Wales.

We can still win the championship, albeit I see no evidence on the pitch to support this, as we did it last year and we can only hope that a shake up and the boys being angry will see a dramatic improvement. A good performance against Italy and a win away in Wales would set things up nicely.

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 09 Feb 2021, 5:35 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:THIS is the type of leadership England need, the polar opposite of today:

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/foden-reveals-how-hartley-punch-sparked-mujati-life-saints-3127711

Physios are going to be busy if every underperforming player seemingly there on a jolly is going to get a split eye. Is Farrell going to lamp the biggest underperformer first because if he does then he'll have to be throwing punches with one eye closed up himself.
Nah. We need new leaders, cut from Hartley's cloth. Hartley led from the front in order to win. Unlike the current team who are trying not to lose.

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Post by geoff999rugby Tue 09 Feb 2021, 7:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:As an outsider the team I would pick
Not going to happen but fun to speculate

Vunipola, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler
Itoje, Lawes,
Willis, Simmons, Curry
Youngs, Ford
Watson, Lawrence, Joseph, Odugwu
Malins

Bench:
For the backs I'd have Randall, Smith, Daly

Not sure about availability in the forwards but probably go with the two starting props against Scotland
Hard on the Sarries boys but Itoje apart they are not at the races

Put out a team that asks questions of the opposition not one that tries to beat them into submission

We cant bring additional players in bar the ones ruled out initially so youd have to manoeuvre around Simmonds jospeh and Smith.

I know which why I mentioned it was not going to happen.
Those three players may not be in the squad but they should be.

Mind you not picking Redpath in the autumn was Eddie's biggest blunder.
The guy is going to be the best 12 in Britain or Ireland in the coming years.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 09 Feb 2021, 7:44 pm

Not sure redpath was quote there in the autumn. Think Lawrence is going to be good as well though. Just read who Woodward would choose against Italy for anyone still thinking hes relevant. From the man who would have played Jonny May as an outside centre he would now have Dombrandt at lock.

Malins; Watson, O’Conor, Slade, May; Smith, Randall; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler; Itoje (capt), Dombrandt; J Willis, S Simmonds, T Curry.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 09 Feb 2021, 7:54 pm

Who is O'Conor? A search brings up a multi nationa qualified Australian playing FB at Bristol called Piers O'Conor. That the one?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 09 Feb 2021, 7:59 pm

Piers yes. But I've seen him playing midfield when I've watched them.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 09 Feb 2021, 9:53 pm

lostinwales wrote:Who is O'Conor? A search brings up a multi nationa qualified Australian playing FB at Bristol called Piers O'Conor. That the one?

Born in Australia but raised in Sussex. Utility back who seems to be quite handy. I think he could be a really good 12 if he settles into that position full time. His form for Bristol has been good last season and this.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 09 Feb 2021, 11:28 pm

Piers O'Connor is one of several talented outside backs at various stages in their development who can't get near the squad.

O'Flaherty has been consistently fantastic for Chiefs. Radwan and Hassell-Collins is a huge talent on the wing. Steward and Hodge at fullback. Marchant and Odogwu at outside centre and wing. Lawrence in the centres.

The tactics need to change drastically to see use of them though. Jones stated that he planned to simply the tactics ball in hand until after the Lions tour as that is when in RWC cycle you tend to naturally get squad evolution with injuries and bolters. At the minute the attack has been blunted so much in favour of pragmatism that we are showing absolutely nothing with performance and now results suffering as a consequence.

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 10 Feb 2021, 9:10 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure redpath was quote there in the autumn. Think Lawrence is going to be good as well though. Just read who Woodward would choose against Italy for anyone still thinking hes relevant.  From the man who would have played Jonny May as an outside centre he would now have Dombrandt at lock.

Malins; Watson, O’Conor, Slade, May; Smith, Randall; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler; Itoje (capt), Dombrandt; J Willis, S Simmonds, T Curry.


Woodwards such a goose these days. That hack piece he did for the Mail (fact he writes for them speaks volumes about the guy) was just pure salt about Connor Oshea getting the R(obAndrew)FU paycheck for doing nothing ahead of him. He has earned the right to have an ego, but since 2003 the few times he's had a proper job he's been a disaster and is clearly way out of the loop on the detail of modern rugby. His approach to punditry is pure cliche. The difference between him and Wilko, who has more than equal claims to ego, is staggering.

Sad that broadcasters still put him front and centre, but most viewers want the simple answer.

Still that side isn't much different to what a lot of people on here would've had. Not sure why Slade keeps getting a pass mind, of everyone thats been capped a lot for England recently he's one who's just never looked much cop. At least Farrell used to be able to cut it at test level.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 10 Feb 2021, 10:17 am

On paper Slade is the closest thing we have had to Greenwood in a very very long time. I can appreciate the concerns but assessing any outside backs at the moment is very hard given the fact they never see the ball.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 10 Feb 2021, 10:22 am

Just listening to Brian Moores podcast, youngs passed 18 times during the game up to 54 mins. Robson 29 passes. No wonder the midfield looks stilted.

Slade has looked ok to good for england. Never more for me. Hes never played in the way i thought he would excel for england though. He's got the vision and passing ability to offer soemthing different at 13 but never showed anything. Decent kicking and good defence but in that respect a step down from joseph for me.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 10 Feb 2021, 10:46 am

Totally agree about Slade. Ive said for a long time...he looks a top club player who has never really brought that to this level, bar glimpses.

I still feel he is better suited to 12, with a speedster outside him...so he can be a 2nd playmaker at 12. He would be in over Farrell for me.

Maybe for Italy:
10 Ford
12 Slade
13 Lawrence

Be interesting to see how that went.


Last edited by GeordieFalcon on Wed 10 Feb 2021, 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 10 Feb 2021, 10:55 am

Hes had a couple there as well hasn't he geordie? For me Farrell is a far superior player.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 10 Feb 2021, 10:55 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Totally agree about Slade. Ive said for a long time...he looks a top club player who has never really brought that to this level.

I still feel he is better suited to 12, with a speedster outside him...so he can be a 2nd playmaker at 12. He would be in over Farrell for me.

Maybe for Italy:
10 Ford
12 Slade
13 Lawrence

Be interesting to see how that went.

That is what I want to see. Slade isn't rapid but he does offer a running threat and is big enough to take the ball into contact in a way that Farrell does not.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 10 Feb 2021, 11:01 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hes had a couple there as well hasn't he geordie? For me Farrell is a far superior player.

He has. LIke i said, i dont believe he has brought his Exeter performances to this level. But Farrell is not a "great" 12 either. IMO.

i just think against Italy this weekend that might be a useful midfield.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 10 Feb 2021, 11:06 am

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Totally agree about Slade. Ive said for a long time...he looks a top club player who has never really brought that to this level.

I still feel he is better suited to 12, with a speedster outside him...so he can be a 2nd playmaker at 12. He would be in over Farrell for me.

Maybe for Italy:
10 Ford
12 Slade
13 Lawrence

Be interesting to see how that went.

That is what I want to see. Slade isn't rapid but he does offer a running threat and is big enough to take the ball into contact in a way that Farrell does not.
Based on who is in the squad currently, I also agree Ford, Slade, Lawrence. We do lose Farrell's defense, but that doesn't make much difference if we have no attack to speak of. But, in playing these guys, the tactics must be adapted to what they bring to the table. Otherwise we gain nothing.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 10 Feb 2021, 11:09 am

doctor_grey wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Totally agree about Slade. Ive said for a long time...he looks a top club player who has never really brought that to this level.

I still feel he is better suited to 12, with a speedster outside him...so he can be a 2nd playmaker at 12. He would be in over Farrell for me.

Maybe for Italy:
10 Ford
12 Slade
13 Lawrence

Be interesting to see how that went.

That is what I want to see. Slade isn't rapid but he does offer a running threat and is big enough to take the ball into contact in a way that Farrell does not.
Based on who is in the squad currently, I also agree Ford, Slade, Lawrence.  We do lose Farrell's defense, but that doesn't make much difference if we have no attack to speak of.  But, in playing these guys, the tactics must be adapted to what they bring to the table.  Otherwise we gain nothing.  

Slade's defence is probably better than Farrell. He certainly isn't known for the 'shoulder' hits. You do miss the leadership and some of the tactical kicking but I am not convinced that Farrell is on top form at the moment.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 10 Feb 2021, 11:25 am

When I think defense, I am thinking Farrell is better than Ford and defending the 10 channel.  I agree we have good kickers (Ford is quite good) so I wouldn't worry about that.  And I am not sure about Farrell's leadership either.  As long as Ford is allowed/told to play Rugby, this midfield should get on all right.    

On the other hand, if Ford plays the same tactics as Farrell, then we might as well play two flankers in the midfield and use them for their defense...

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 10 Feb 2021, 11:33 am

doctor_grey wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Totally agree about Slade. Ive said for a long time...he looks a top club player who has never really brought that to this level.

I still feel he is better suited to 12, with a speedster outside him...so he can be a 2nd playmaker at 12. He would be in over Farrell for me.

Maybe for Italy:
10 Ford
12 Slade
13 Lawrence

Be interesting to see how that went.

That is what I want to see. Slade isn't rapid but he does offer a running threat and is big enough to take the ball into contact in a way that Farrell does not.
Based on who is in the squad currently, I also agree Ford, Slade, Lawrence.  We do lose Farrell's defense, but that doesn't make much difference if we have no attack to speak of.  But, in playing these guys, the tactics must be adapted to what they bring to the table.  Otherwise we gain nothing.  

Im not sure Doc, as i think Slade is still a good defender at 12 / 13

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 10 Feb 2021, 1:01 pm

lostinwales wrote:

Slade's defence is probably better than Farrell. He certainly isn't known for the 'shoulder' hits. You do miss the leadership and some of the tactical kicking but I am not convinced that Farrell is on top form at the moment.

I don't think there's any probably about it, he is far better defensively than Farrell. He doesn't put in the big eye catching hits but he's rarely out of position and like JJ he's unlikely to get trampled over like Farrell has been on occassion. Defensively and offensively his game looks more suited to 12 where pace isn't so important but is no slouch either. I actually wanted to see him tried at full back, has a better kicking and distributing game than Daly, positionally very good and tackles well. No idea what he's like in the air but can't be any worse than Daly, the only downside is pace.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 10 Feb 2021, 1:08 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
lostinwales wrote:

Slade's defence is probably better than Farrell. He certainly isn't known for the 'shoulder' hits. You do miss the leadership and some of the tactical kicking but I am not convinced that Farrell is on top form at the moment.

I don't think there's any probably about it, he is far better defensively than Farrell. He doesn't put in the big eye catching hits but he's rarely out of position and like JJ he's unlikely to get trampled over like Farrell has been on occassion. Defensively and offensively his game looks more suited to 12 where pace isn't so important but is no slouch either. I actually wanted to see him tried at full back, has a better kicking and distributing game than Daly, positionally very good and tackles well. No idea what he's like in the air but can't be any worse than Daly, the only downside is pace.

He has played at FB following a substitution in a recent game (can't remember which). Looked comfortable.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 10 Feb 2021, 1:52 pm

Please don't get me wrong. I like Slade and would like to see him get a run at second receiver. I think that would get the other centre moving as well. I don't think the recent England tactics play to his strengths so he has been less effective as a result.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 10 Feb 2021, 2:36 pm

From an article in the Grauniad https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/feb/09/kyle-sinckler-and-mako-vunipola-return-to-england-squad-for-italy-match

Guardian wrote:Jones, who has welcomed back Mako Vunipola and Kyle Sinckler from injury and suspension respectively in place of Harry Williams and Tom West, also disputed that England are now in a slump after a poor start to the Six Nations. “You guys must have a new thesaurus. I always thought slump was about having three or four bad games. Now it must be one game,” he said.

I would say that despite the winning record up until Saturday, they have had 3 or 4 bad games

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 10 Feb 2021, 2:53 pm

lostinwales wrote:From an article in the Grauniad https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/feb/09/kyle-sinckler-and-mako-vunipola-return-to-england-squad-for-italy-match

Guardian wrote:Jones, who has welcomed back Mako Vunipola and Kyle Sinckler from injury and suspension respectively in place of Harry Williams and Tom West, also disputed that England are now in a slump after a poor start to the Six Nations. “You guys must have a new thesaurus. I always thought slump was about having three or four bad games. Now it must be one game,” he said.

I would say that despite the winning record up until Saturday, they have had 3 or 4 bad games

Backs wise most definitely. Forwards have won us games and allowed us to dominate without racking up the points (pretty much like Scotland did to us). Defence has been excellent in general.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 10 Feb 2021, 7:55 pm

Not relevant to this Six Nations but perhaps longer term there are rumours that Kruis is in talks with Premiership clubs about a return for next season. His contract in Japan is a one-year deal with an extension clause for a second year if both parties wanted to extend. If Kruis would prefer being back in the UK and in contention for an England shirt he would walk back into the squad after proving fitness and form. In my opinion the best lineout lock we have. The combination of his scrummaging strength and lineout work, both in attack and defense, is hard to beat.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 13 Feb 2021, 8:15 pm

Wow. A lot to discuss, eh? Such a shame for Willis. A lot of torsional force on his knee in that tackle. ACL? MCL? I suppose we will know the diagnosis soon.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb 2021, 8:16 pm

Well the tactics were better. Some players looked better others still not great.

Biggest thing is poor young Jack doing his knee. Gutted for him.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 13 Feb 2021, 8:17 pm

So Wales next, can we keep 15 players on the field.

The only thing we can take from the England game is that Cowan-dickie needs to start. oh and players not currently playing club rugby shouldn't be pulling on the Red rose.

Really feel for Willis.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb 2021, 8:21 pm

Yes I thought LCD played very well so did Johnny Hill at lock

Sam Simmonds scored two again...

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 13 Feb 2021, 8:27 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes I thought LCD played very well so did Johnny Hill at lock

Sam Simmonds scored two again...
Sorry, not good enough (or fat enough)

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 8:31 pm

Such a shame for Willis. He has already been out for a year with a ruptured ACL in the other knee. Brutal luck.

From that game I thought that Mako played pretty solidly given his lack of rugby. I'd definitely keep him starting as he's still much more consistent than Genge. Sinckler was also good and what he offers around the park made a big difference. Cowan-Dickie made a good contribution starting so I'd keep the front row the same.

I thought Hill and Lawes both played very well. Lawes playing on the flank gets a lot of criticism but he has played well there in the last year or so. The lack of breakdown presence at blindside doesn't upset me that much at the moment as I'd prefer England were more passive at the breakdown to target making big tackles around the fringes. Our discipline at rucks has been dire and leaking penalties so far. Turnovers are exciting but England's defence under Jones was built on lots of dominant hits around the fringes first with Curry and Underhill offering a breakdown threat later. With the penalty count sky high I don't mind the defence going back to basics and competing rucks less to improve discipline.

Daly started showing some lovely touches in attack again but had a dire missed tackle in defence. I'm really not convinced Malins offers more in attack or defence as they have similar strengths and weaknesses but I would be happy with Malins getting more minutes as he's in form.

May and Watson were back to near their best.

The centre partnership and Billy are by far my biggest concerns.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 8:33 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes I thought LCD played very well so did Johnny Hill at lock

Sam Simmonds scored two again...
I rate Simmonds highly but worth noting on the try count front that Thomas Waldrom used to score more tries than most wingers in the Chiefs pack and game plan.

With Curry, Lawes, Earl and Wilson all good options on the flank I'd hope that Willis' replacement is a number 8 and I'd hope that's Simmonds over Dombrandt though both are very talented players.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 13 Feb 2021, 8:41 pm

England did play some good rugby to day. but i do think some of the team should be changed/rested for the next game, Billy v for one look's way off the pace.Owen Farrell although was ok with the boot, he was not very good catching the ball,

When id the best time to bring in new players? Sam Simmonds, Joe Simmonds to name just 2 players. Gow long can Ben Youngs go on for?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb 2021, 8:44 pm

Slade was better than ive seen him for a good while...but I still think hed be better at 12...

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat 13 Feb 2021, 8:49 pm

I will be surprised if Billy starts next time out. He has looked a long way from being a decent Number 8 for a while. Earl has earned his place. Add to this Dombrandt (who I think Eddie would go for as an 8 over Simmonds because he's looked at him more recently) in the squad and there's a cracking set of back row forwards WITHOUT Billy. Youngs will stay in the team until he breaks or gets banned, as will Farrell.

I feel desperately sorry for Willis - he has done SO well recently and was really pushing for a starting berth. He'll be a big loss in training too as he no doubt keeps the others on their toes. Is there any news on how Underhill is progressing?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 13 Feb 2021, 8:49 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
lostinwales wrote:

Slade's defence is probably better than Farrell. He certainly isn't known for the 'shoulder' hits. You do miss the leadership and some of the tactical kicking but I am not convinced that Farrell is on top form at the moment.

I don't think there's any probably about it, he is far better defensively than Farrell. He doesn't put in the big eye catching hits but he's rarely out of position and like JJ he's unlikely to get trampled over like Farrell has been on occassion. Defensively and offensively his game looks more suited to 12 where pace isn't so important but is no slouch either. I actually wanted to see him tried at full back, has a better kicking and distributing game than Daly, positionally very good and tackles well. No idea what he's like in the air but can't be any worse than Daly, the only downside is pace.

He has played at FB following a substitution in a recent game (can't remember which). Looked comfortable.

Year ago Vs France. One of his best performances in an England shirt for me. Played really well.

If we can sort the centre combination I think we can step up another level. We looked more cohesive this week. Still clunky in a lot of places but the combinations are starting to work. Itoje and Hill is a good lock combination. I really felt for Willis because that cameo had surely played him into a starting jersey for next time out if not for injury.

Hopefully Odogwu or Lawrence get a go at 13 next time so Ford has an additional option. The impact of him marshalling our attack made a staggering difference.

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 13 Feb 2021, 9:07 pm

BillyV offers nothing other than another face smiling and hand clapping when the opposition knock on.

About two stone overweight too.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Feb 2021, 9:34 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
lostinwales wrote:

Slade's defence is probably better than Farrell. He certainly isn't known for the 'shoulder' hits. You do miss the leadership and some of the tactical kicking but I am not convinced that Farrell is on top form at the moment.

I don't think there's any probably about it, he is far better defensively than Farrell. He doesn't put in the big eye catching hits but he's rarely out of position and like JJ he's unlikely to get trampled over like Farrell has been on occassion. Defensively and offensively his game looks more suited to 12 where pace isn't so important but is no slouch either. I actually wanted to see him tried at full back, has a better kicking and distributing game than Daly, positionally very good and tackles well. No idea what he's like in the air but can't be any worse than Daly, the only downside is pace.

He has played at FB following a substitution in a recent game (can't remember which). Looked comfortable.

Year ago Vs France. One of his best performances in an England shirt for me. Played really well.

If we can sort the centre combination I think we can step up another level. We looked more cohesive this week. Still clunky in a lot of places but the combinations are starting to work. Itoje and Hill is a good lock combination. I really felt for Willis because that cameo had surely played him into a starting jersey for next time out if not for injury.

Hopefully Odogwu or Lawrence get a go at 13 next time so Ford has an additional option. The impact of him marshalling our attack made a staggering difference.

He got a lot more passes which helps of course. I'm sure the noticable change in tactics albeit italy helped but youngs passed 19 times in 50 minutes and not all the time to Farrell. I'd be surprised if Ford got his hands on the ball fewer than 20 times in the first half.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 13 Feb 2021, 9:36 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Wow.  A lot to discuss, eh?  Such a shame for Willis.  A lot of torsional force on his knee in that tackle.  ACL?  MCL?  I suppose we will know the diagnosis soon.

I was going to ask you. What do you think the prognosis might be?

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 13 Feb 2021, 9:58 pm

Based on the way the knee rotated and his reaction, most likely an ACL and possibly an MCL. Hopefully no cartilage tear. Usually if there is an ACL tear there is an immediate surge of discomfort then it settles down to ache quickly. Sometimes it is possible to hear the tear. I know this is counterintuitive but the pain can sometimes be worse if there is a sprain. If an ACL tear give him 6-8 months (young, strong, not over built up, healthy). If also an MCL tear add 2-4 months. These are general rules of thumb, it all depends on the actual damage. Hopefully only a severe sprain, but I would not be optimistic.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb 2021, 10:03 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:I will be surprised if Billy starts next time out. He has looked a long way from being a decent Number 8 for a while. Earl has earned his place. Add to this Dombrandt (who I think Eddie would go for as an 8 over Simmonds because he's looked at him more recently) in the squad and there's a cracking set of back row forwards WITHOUT Billy. Youngs will stay in the team until he breaks or gets banned, as will Farrell.

I feel desperately sorry for Willis - he has done SO well recently and was really pushing for a starting berth. He'll be a big loss in training too as he no doubt keeps the others on their toes. Is there any news on how Underhill is progressing?

You can be sure Billy will start...

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 13 Feb 2021, 10:05 pm

Yeah great........ Rolling Eyes
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Post by Mr Bounce Sat 13 Feb 2021, 10:10 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Based on the way the knee rotated and his reaction, most likely an ACL and possibly an MCL.  Hopefully no cartilage tear.  Usually if there is an ACL tear there is an immediate surge of discomfort then it settles down to ache quickly.  Sometimes it is possible to hear the tear.  I know this is counterintuitive but the pain can sometimes be worse if there is a sprain.  If an ACL tear give him 6-8 months (young, strong, not over built up, healthy).  If also an MCL tear add 2-4 months.  These are general rules of thumb, it all depends on the actual damage.   Hopefully only a severe sprain, but I would not be optimistic.  

Having sprained an ACL I can concur that it is far from comfortable! Did mine playing indoor cricket as a favour to a mate at University. That weekend I was going to go to rugby training as a friend said I could be useful. As a result I never found out if I was... nope

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Feb 2021, 10:14 pm

Yeah I did mine aswell along with the medial and lateral meniscus...not nice.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 13 Feb 2021, 10:28 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah I did mine aswell along with the medial and lateral meniscus...not nice.
You should have brought your knees to me. We could have enjoyed a nice cigar whilst I was working on your joint.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 10:40 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah I did mine aswell along with the medial and lateral meniscus...not nice.
You should have brought your knees to me.  We could have enjoyed a nice cigar whilst I was working on your joint.  
Or a nice joint whilst working on his cigar. Wait that's filthy. Sorry, not sorry.

I had a fracture-dislocation of my ankle from a similar 'lifeguard' clear out. The clearing player got a good grip/bind around my waist and flipped me very quickly but my ankle was trapped under the tackler trying roll away. If anything I think how swift it was made it less horrible than the Willis injury though. It's a bit of a slower roll that one and you can sort of see Willis trying to get his leg free as it starts to bend but he can't, then it goes. Really nasty. My one was horrid but happened so quick that I had a massive flash of pain then pretty much by the time I registered what happened the physio was already there and stopping me looking at my mangled ankle.

My recovery was 6 months to non-contact and 9 months to first game back. Meanwhile a teammate who suffered an awful MCL and ACL in training a week or so later had multiple surgeries, months off work and never got back to full contact. Ligament injuries are brutal.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 13 Feb 2021, 10:44 pm

Bring 'em all to me mate!
You can bring the joint the size of a cigar. That way, if I mess up, no one will care.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 13 Feb 2021, 10:45 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:You can be sure Billy will start...
Yep, Jones has nailed his colours well and truly to that mast. Billy hasn't been at his best for a long while is the problem. He was below his best whilst solid in the RWC and his defence gradually improved in the ANC but his carrying was still nowhere near his best. It's the selection that bothers me most.

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