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A bit of perspective

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Post by whatahitson Sat 13 Feb 2021, 8:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

All I am seeing on twitter is England fans going mad at Farrell, Youngs, Eddie Jones, Vunipola et cetera.

I have to say I am surprised. England and Jones have huge amounts of credit in the bank and I think English fans need a bit of perspective on where we are as a team.

I know this might sound controversial but England are miles ahead of any other team in Europe eventhough Scotland beat them last week. Jones came in to England with a remit to do what Stuart Lancaster couldn't which was to make England world champions after it went horribly wrong on home soil. Jones started off with back to back six nations wins and then found his side struggled to manage with Lions recovery and the added pressure of teams knowing what was coming and preparing gameplans specifically for England, like Scotland did in 2018. But he turned it around after a losing streak and brought in fresh blood maybe a little fortuitously (although I think everyone suspected Haskell and Robshaw would struggle to stay the course) but nevertheless England showed what they could do in the 18/19 season against South Africa, New Zealand and Ireland and kept enough powder dry for Japan the season after. We all know what happened there and falling at the final hurdle means there is only one thing left to do for Eddie Jones and that is WIN the cup.

So now where are England? Apparently they're in their worst ever position and are a disgrace? What?1?! furious censored

England have won both tournaments available to them after the 2019 world cup and yes they were a little bit fortunate but they could add a third this year considering how results have gone as long as they beat the French. All of that without even trying to change anything dramatic since 2018/19? If you play badly and win that's a sign of a good team. I don't mean to put this the wrong way but if the six nations is the 'bread and butter' of rugby then continuing to worry too much about the bread and butter means they will be too full to deal with off the main course when it arrives in 2023. No other coach has as much credit in the bank as he does.

Jones says England want to be the best team ever but I think its obvious HE wants to be the best England coach ever. He wants to have what Clive Woodward has and to beat his record as well which means he only needs one more title but not if it means sacrificing the world cup. The world cup is what matters. The difference between winning a world cup is huge in terms of prestige and standing and for his legacy. It's the only thing Eddie has left to do with England and he had 4 years to do it after that night in Japan.

So I think some perspective is needed. If the Lions goes ahead this year England will lose maybe 20 players or more to the tour and that means injuries. He already say that two thirds of the Japan squad would not make it to France. Youngs will probably not tour. Look at the way Jamie George, Curry, and Underhill played despite Hartley, Haskell, and Robshaw playing for so long under Eddie.

I just think the abuse needs to stop. England are not trying to win the six nations with everything theyve got if anything Jones is taking a risk that the Lions tour will go ahead this year by just keeping things ticking over. Everyone ELSE needs to try to show what their level is because Wales won it 2 years ago and Ireland 3 years ago but they're different teams with different coaches. No one else has shown their standard so every other team is in a different boat to England who went with the continuity option. Pivac is desperate for wins that's why Lydiate has come back. France are building to a home world cup and do not want to experience what England did in 2015 so they need to show their level and not just potential. Farrell has been backed by Ireland and needs to repay them and that starts with the six nations. Scotland need to finally become competitive after 6 years of showing promising signs. Italy need to just win to get the media off their back.

No one else is in England's position. No one else has 'win the world cup' as their next step. England and Eddie Jones do. Yes they cannot stand still but given what happened with the Lions last time out and how England prepared in house and built a gameplan by playing one 'tactic' at a time in certain matches, like they are now, before putting it altogether against a NZ or SA, I just think a bit of perspective is need. rose


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Post by No9 Fri 19 Feb 2021, 3:03 pm

WOW you got this WUM to fly..... for a bit.

I'll help you.. Yes Engerrrrrrland are miles in front of all other sides.

I hope you come back on here to congratulate Wales when they win a Triple Crown and also at the end to Congratulate Wales or France on their Grand Slam... but I agree, Engerrrrrrland are the best side by far.. chin

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Post by Poorfour Fri 19 Feb 2021, 3:33 pm

The 6N teams are at different points in their development. France, Wales and Ireland all had changes of coach after the last RWC and are in the process of rebuilding in various forms. Scotland were further along in that process. England finished the tournament in the best shape of anyone except SA.

Since then, Scotland have continued to improve, as have France. Wales went through a very low period and still don't look particularly robust, but have started winning again. Ireland are still all at sea. England are in a bit of a dip that has narrowed the gap to the other teams. So currently there are several teams on about the same level.

Looking forward, France have a young squad and mostly what they seem to lack is experience and the maturity to close out tough games. I expect them to get better in the run up to 2023 as long as Galthie can keep their heads in the right place.

Scotland have a game plan and finally the personnel to execute it; the question is strength in depth. Wales look a little more precarious: they will always be hard to beat, but they have yet to have the personnel rotation they need before 2023, and again they've historically struggled in the RWC because of the toll that injuries can take on key personnel.

Ireland need to work out what the post-Schmidt, post-Sexton era looks like. England probably need to go through a crisis and switch up their tactics and personnel; Eddie may need another rotation of coaches to make it happen. But the depth is there for them to emerge stronger if Eddie can work out what he thinks the next thing is.

On a global scale, we know the ABs are rebuilding themselves, Australia needs to get through its financial crisis and we have no real idea what shape South Africa are in. It's going to be an interesting couple of years and I would be willing to bet that we will be surprised by the RWC.
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Post by doctor_grey Fri 19 Feb 2021, 3:39 pm

Poorfour wrote:It's going to be an interesting couple of years and I would be willing to bet that we will be surprised by the RWC.
Yeah, USA, USA, yeah, yeah, yeah.


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Post by lostinwales Fri 19 Feb 2021, 5:53 pm

And so it begins, again.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 19 Feb 2021, 6:58 pm

lostinwales wrote:And so it begins, again.

Quite a purrfect response?

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Post by nlpnlp Fri 19 Feb 2021, 10:02 pm

There have 10 World Cups and 1 Northern Hemisphere winners. Why do people think this is? Is it because the only thing that matters for Scotland and Wales is beating England? Ireland are there for a good time, not a long time. France - well I have had a house in France for 33 years and still don't understand them and suspect they don't understand themselves. England? By and large they are happy with mediocrity and being 6 Nations champions is the height of our ambitions.

Please say what your country needs to do to win the next World Cup - or do you accept that they have no chance whatever.

My call for England is sack Eddie and get in Gatland. He took a very average Welsh team to great heights - 4 6 Nations, 3 Grand Slams, 4th in the World Cup - a Lions series win in Australia and a draw with New Zealand. What could he do with a good crop of English players?

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Post by lostinwales Fri 19 Feb 2021, 11:52 pm

nlpnlp wrote:There have 10 World Cups and 1 Northern Hemisphere winners.  Why do people think this is?  Is it because the only thing that matters for Scotland and Wales is beating England?  Ireland are there for a good time, not a long time.  France - well I have had a house in France for 33 years and still don't understand them and suspect they don't understand themselves.  England?  By and large they are happy with mediocrity and being 6 Nations champions is the height of our ambitions.

Please say what your country needs to do to win the next World Cup - or do you accept that they have no chance whatever.

My call for England is sack Eddie and get in Gatland.  He took a very average Welsh team to great heights - 4 6 Nations, 3 Grand Slams, 4th in the World Cup - a Lions series win in Australia and a draw with New Zealand.  What could he do with a good crop of English players?

Not Gatland. He's had his time and he's not exactly doing well at the moment either.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 20 Feb 2021, 12:12 am

Not sure Gatland is right for England either. Warren-ball is similar to the Eddie kick-it-way, though he certainly has a different coaching style. And we all know it's a very rare coach in any sport, even the very successful ones who last more than six or seven seasons in the same place. Sometimes the messages go stale. Perhaps that's why Eddie studies different coaches, but it could be time. On the other hand, Eddie has absolutely earned his opportunity to get the team playing better. But if he loses to Wales, there is a special place on Tyburn Hill......

The one coach who could have the England coaching position almost by acclimation is Rob Baxter. But he says he likes his current job and is happy there. If almost any other coach, not sure I would believe him. Who else? Pat Lam? Former Saint, so points in my book, and I think he would go for it.

Short of coaching changes, the team needs a strong re-evaluation of strategy and the players within it. Eddie has said he would be ruthless with selection. That is not exactly happening. It has to be. The problem is the players he looks at as his core are the ones not playing well. For me, I start there and with the FFS line.

For here in America, their challenge is much bigger. But I have a solution:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVQ8byG2mY8

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 20 Feb 2021, 12:22 am

Gatland. Lol.

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Post by LordDowlais Sat 20 Feb 2021, 6:44 am

Poorfour wrote:and again they've historically struggled in the RWC because of the toll that injuries can take on key personnel.

I wouldn't have said Wales struggled. 2007 aside, we always get out of our group and the last three we have had a quarter final and two semi finals.

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Post by LordDowlais Sat 20 Feb 2021, 6:58 am

nlpnlp wrote:Why do people think this is? Is it because the only thing that matters for Scotland and Wales is beating England?

Not for me it isn't.

You see, it's threads like this, and comments like what you are making that gives most normal and sound English rugby supporters a bad name.

You are not alone, there are a few on here as well, but I have a lot of English friends, and they are a pleasure to watch rugby with. They hate it when some of their fanbase harp on about how England are the best in the world blah, blah, blah.

For all of England's resources they have won one world cup. Since 2000 when it was the 6N England have won 7 titles, France 4 titles, Wales 5 titles Ireland 4 titles.

Overall since time began, England have won 29 times, France 17 times, Ireland 14 times, Scotland 15 times, Wales 27 times.

So Besides the one world cup win, there has not been much in it between the European power houses in international rugby.

If anything, those figures show how much England and France have under achieved and how much the Celtic nations have over achieved.

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Post by eirebilly Sat 20 Feb 2021, 8:27 am

Personally, I dislike the comments that for certain countries most important thing is to beat England. This is a very generalising view point and not reflective of the majority of fans/players views.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Sat 20 Feb 2021, 9:55 am

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that in general rugby fans from Wales and Scotland would like to beat England more than any other country.
It is therefor their biggest games of the year and adds to the spice and competitiveness of the 6Ns.
Certainly Wales raise their game against the English as can be seen with their 6Ns record compared to their results eg. against NZ & Australia.


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Post by Duty281 Sat 20 Feb 2021, 10:08 am

whatahitson wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Miles ahead of France? On current form, England are light years behind France. At their best, England are probably a little behind the French currently - very exciting times for French rugby at the moment.

I'd say, presently, England are behind France, New Zealand and South Africa. On the current run of form, which isn't showing a sign of coming to an end, you can probably add Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Australia and Argentina to that list.

This is the problem you're judging form but it's not the only way of judging a team. Form matters but it's not everything and for England in particular having won both trophies in 2020 with a Lions tour coming up it definitely isn't everything. You don't win a world cup 2.5 years before it gets played but you can lessen your chance of winning it by peaking too soon or using all your best ideas just to stay in a job like Pivac and Farrell are going to have to do.

I agree form isn't everything, but currently England are on a downward slide that they haven't yet arrested. The Lions Tour if/when it happens will further take a toll on England's players ahead of 2023, a hindrance that the French don't have to endure.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 20 Feb 2021, 10:10 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Miles ahead of France? On current form, England are light years behind France. At their best, England are probably a little behind the French currently - very exciting times for French rugby at the moment.

I'd say, presently, England are behind France, New Zealand and South Africa. On the current run of form, which isn't showing a sign of coming to an end, you can probably add Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Australia and Argentina to that list.

England are playing frustrating rugby at the moment but at their best are more than a match for any team in the world. The ability of this French team is being blown out of all proportion, they didn't win either cup last year which doesn't suggest a team that's light years ahead. Ireland with a bit more endeavor could have beaten them on Sunday.

At their best, yes, I'd agree, but England are a long way from that at this stage. I think the French will end up being the dominant NH team of the 2020s, winning the most Six Nations titles and being the most likely NH team to win the World Cup in either 2023/2027, but admittedly a lot of it is potential at this stage, rather than actual current ability. And France would have won the Autumn Nations Cup last year, if it wasn't for losing 25 or so players for the final.

I can't say I agree with that, France may have won with everyone available but the players they selected had a free shot to just go out and play. Impossible to know if that helped or hindered England, it wasn't a French team lacking in ability anyway. I think you're confusing playing boring rugby with ability, England can and have beaten most teams in the world with their kicking game, it's not expansive but on the whole it's effective.

It was certainly a French team lacking in cohesion and experience, England should have beaten them comfortably, but ended up scraping over the line in ET. An almost embarrassing win. I get that boring rugby doesn't equal lack of ability - England have certainly won dull many times - but at the moment England are hitting a combo of being dull and playing terribly, which is a great shame considering the talent England have in the back three.

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Post by LordDowlais Sat 20 Feb 2021, 10:17 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:It is therefor their biggest games of the year

Again, where do you get this from ?

Sometimes it is, sometimes its not. I would wager that the last time England was our biggest game of the year was in 2013, when we needed to beat you to win the 6N.

There was a time where I saw Italy as our biggest game, when we were regularly duking it out with them for the wooden spoon.

2019 was Ireland when we were going for the grand slam.

It's not all about England. Not for me anyway.

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Post by whatahitson Sat 20 Feb 2021, 11:59 am

Duty281 wrote:
whatahitson wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Miles ahead of France? On current form, England are light years behind France. At their best, England are probably a little behind the French currently - very exciting times for French rugby at the moment.

I'd say, presently, England are behind France, New Zealand and South Africa. On the current run of form, which isn't showing a sign of coming to an end, you can probably add Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Australia and Argentina to that list.

This is the problem you're judging form but it's not the only way of judging a team. Form matters but it's not everything and for England in particular having won both trophies in 2020 with a Lions tour coming up it definitely isn't everything. You don't win a world cup 2.5 years before it gets played but you can lessen your chance of winning it by peaking too soon or using all your best ideas just to stay in a job like Pivac and Farrell are going to have to do.

I agree form isn't everything, but currently England are on a downward slide that they haven't yet arrested. The Lions Tour if/when it happens will further take a toll on England's players ahead of 2023, a hindrance that the French don't have to endure.

I don't think it is a downward slide though. That's the wrong way to look at it. It is just a natural consequence of rebuilding for the next world cup and the fact that the only thing left to win IS the world cup. Jones explained the reasons for this and England are still in a good position to win 3 out of 3 trophies since the world cup final so if I have to ask what are people complaining about? As far as I can see it's just nonsense and people pretending England should try to dominate world rugby for the next 2.5 years starting now. Anyone who thinks that needs "a bit of perspective".

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Post by whatahitson Sat 20 Feb 2021, 12:07 pm

nlpnlp wrote:My call for England is sack Eddie and get in Gatland.  He took a very average Welsh team to great heights - 4 6 Nations, 3 Grand Slams, 4th in the World Cup - a Lions series win in Australia and a draw with New Zealand.  What could he do with a good crop of English players?

No Eddie Jones is just as good as Gatland Wales have some top players just look at how they play for the Lions. By rights England shouldn't beat New Zealand based on talent but that's now everything Eddie Jones found the perfect strategy for England this is why the complaints about kicking are just nonsense. If England are going to win the world cup in France they will have to win by outmuscling the likes of new zealand but now they know they also need another strategy for south africa because what works against new zelaand won't work against them.

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Post by whatahitson Sat 20 Feb 2021, 12:10 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Short of coaching changes, the team needs a strong re-evaluation of strategy and the players within it.  Eddie has said he would be ruthless with selection.  That is not exactly happening.  It has to be.  The problem is the players he looks at as his core are the ones not playing well.  For me, I start there and with the FFS line.
   

Or maybe he has already made his mind up about who won't be going to the next world cup and realises there is no point dropping them when they are offering 6/10 performances and winning trophies (2 out of 2 so far) just before a lions tour. You can cap players too soon. I also like the fact that new players have to earn the right and displace the current player that is good psychologically it makes people hungry and shows that it matters. It calms the arrogance of youth and puts them in their place. What better track record does Eddie need to have than Curry and Underhill.

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Post by eirebilly Sun 21 Feb 2021, 12:40 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that in general rugby fans from Wales and Scotland would like to beat England more than any other country.
It is therefor their biggest games of the year and adds to the spice and competitiveness of the 6Ns.
Certainly Wales raise their game against the English as can be seen with their 6Ns record compared to their results eg. against NZ & Australia.


Could it be that England raise their game for matches against Scotland and Wales? Two sides of the coin thumbsup
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Post by doctor_grey Sun 21 Feb 2021, 1:01 pm

whatahitson wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Short of coaching changes, the team needs a strong re-evaluation of strategy and the players within it.  Eddie has said he would be ruthless with selection.  That is not exactly happening.  It has to be.  The problem is the players he looks at as his core are the ones not playing well.  For me, I start there and with the FFS line.
   

Or maybe he has already made his mind up about who won't be going to the next world cup and realises there is no point dropping them when they are offering 6/10 performances and winning trophies (2 out of 2 so far) just before a lions tour. You can cap players too soon. I also like the fact that new players have to earn the right and displace the current player that is good psychologically it makes people hungry and shows that it matters. It calms the arrogance of youth and puts them in their place. What better track record does Eddie need to have than Curry and Underhill.
If the current players are underperforming, they should be dropped. Stops any form of complaisance in the older more experienced players. And in the England squad we have players who seem they feel the shirt is theirs. Billy V. has been poor and needs to earn the jersey back. Daly? Poor and needs bench time. Farrell has been poor and actually uninvolved, captain or no. In fact, the captain has to maintain more than anyone else and continue to add value. Nap time for him. Itoje has been fine, George has been mediocre. How can their continued presence, excepting Itoje, be condoned?

I can't believe time off is the root cause. They are not in shape and it shows. If the Argentina national team can have a year off and beat the ABs, there is no excuse for anyone. It shows a total lack of respect for the team, the jersey, and England supporters everywhere.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Sun 21 Feb 2021, 2:09 pm

eirebilly wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that in general rugby fans from Wales and Scotland would like to beat England more than any other country.
It is therefor their biggest games of the year and adds to the spice and competitiveness of the 6Ns.
Certainly Wales raise their game against the English as can be seen with their 6Ns record compared to their results eg. against NZ & Australia.


Could it be that England raise their game for matches against Scotland and Wales? Two sides of the coin thumbsup

The Stereophonics knew which side of their bread was buttered.

https://youtu.be/skApHVxkgAo thumbsup

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 21 Feb 2021, 6:10 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that in general rugby fans from Wales and Scotland would like to beat England more than any other country.
It is therefor their biggest games of the year and adds to the spice and competitiveness of the 6Ns.
Certainly Wales raise their game against the English as can be seen with their 6Ns record compared to their results eg. against NZ & Australia.


Could it be that England raise their game for matches against Scotland and Wales? Two sides of the coin thumbsup

The Stereophonics knew which side of their bread was buttered.

https://youtu.be/skApHVxkgAo thumbsup
Absolutely freaking funny! Love it. Almost makes me want to beat the English. Oh, wait...

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Post by whatahitson Sun 21 Feb 2021, 9:57 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
whatahitson wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Short of coaching changes, the team needs a strong re-evaluation of strategy and the players within it.  Eddie has said he would be ruthless with selection.  That is not exactly happening.  It has to be.  The problem is the players he looks at as his core are the ones not playing well.  For me, I start there and with the FFS line.
   

Or maybe he has already made his mind up about who won't be going to the next world cup and realises there is no point dropping them when they are offering 6/10 performances and winning trophies (2 out of 2 so far) just before a lions tour. You can cap players too soon. I also like the fact that new players have to earn the right and displace the current player that is good psychologically it makes people hungry and shows that it matters. It calms the arrogance of youth and puts them in their place. What better track record does Eddie need to have than Curry and Underhill.

If the current players are underperforming, they should be dropped.  Stops any form of complaisance in the older more experienced players.  And in the England squad we have players who seem they feel the shirt is theirs.  Billy V. has been poor and needs to earn the jersey back.  Daly?  Poor and needs bench time.  Farrell has been poor and actually uninvolved, captain or no.  In fact, the captain has to maintain more than anyone else and continue to add value.  Nap time for him.  Itoje has been fine, George has been mediocre.  How can their continued presence, excepting Itoje, be condoned?

I can't believe time off is the root cause.  They are not in shape and it shows.  If the Argentina national team can have a year off and beat the ABs, there is no excuse for anyone.  It shows a total lack of respect for the team, the jersey, and England supporters everywhere.

It's difficult but what happens when the new player isn't up to the task? You just end up with a merry go round of players and that was what Lancaster did it didn't work. Some players will play themselves back in to form in a game of two, what does dropping them teach them? What do they learn? Some players don't and fair enough they get dropped but is there another 8 who can do what Billy does in England? No. That's why these players have credit in the bank. Also I don't think it's a matter of player form either it's also preparation as a team and as much as England want to win every game Jones admitted he is not trying to reinvent the backs until after the Lions so that means opposition teams will know the plays and know how to counter them. That can be the difference between winning or losing games look at Ireland beating New Zealand and then getting battered 12 months later. Both teams had prepared game plans at the world cup but Ireland were second rate. What's the difference? Preparation and prorities. England are just on auto pilot at the moment and STILL they have won 2 trophies out of 2. That's what I'm saying if they had results like Wales then fair enough but they don't they're still winning. Argentina have been useless for the last 4 years and look at their world cup: they have a point to prove. England don't. The only thing they need to prove to themselves is when they get back to the knockouts of a world cup. This is what I'm trying to say I don't know why people are misunderstanding my point. There is no right or wrong answer but fans always think the grass is greener so would happily drop a player one week then have him replace the dropped player again the next. I think Jones knows best IMO.

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Post by MonkeyMan Sun 21 Feb 2021, 10:09 pm

England are mighty world beaters. We all know this. And they will beat Wales on the weekend (sadly)

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Post by whatahitson Sun 21 Feb 2021, 10:17 pm

MonkeyMan wrote:England are mighty world beaters. We all know this. And they will beat Wales on the weekend (sadly)

They are strong favourites but even if they lose it is not the end of the world. If England have fewer players on the Lions tour it might help them in the long run.

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Post by MonkeyMan Sun 21 Feb 2021, 10:44 pm

whatahitson wrote:If England have fewer players on the Lions tour it might help them in the long run.
Lions Tour. Crikey...why do we even bother that in the professional era? Four nations ganging up to defeat one. Waste of time nowadays. But it makes people rich I guess

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 22 Feb 2021, 12:18 am

MonkeyMan wrote:
whatahitson wrote:If England have fewer players on the Lions tour it might help them in the long run.
Lions Tour. Crikey...why do we even bother that in the professional era? Four nations ganging up to defeat one. Waste of time nowadays. But it makes people rich I guess
Because going on a Lions tour is some of the best fun in your life you can have with your clothes on. Yes, it is bad for your liver, though your liver won't freaking care. And, although an anachronism, it is a great one!

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Post by geoff999rugby Mon 22 Feb 2021, 9:52 am

whatahitson wrote:   No need to resort to profanity. I think you need to calm down.

A couple of points the profanity was a mild one and clearly directed at the content of your post, not yourself as an individual.
I am perfectly calm thanks, too old to let a thread like this bother me

whatahitson wrote:  You're worrying about style and 'fairness' (when is sport fair?).

You are saying 'don't judge them on what they've done judge them on what they might do'  

I am paraphrasing your argument.

There you go misquoting me again.
I never said anything about fairness and your paraphrasing of my argument is incorrect.
It would help if in any disagreement with what I say you confine yourself to what I actually say not what you, falsely, have decided I said.

whatahitson wrote: mentally look at the way they crumbled up in Scotland  ....

As opposed to England crumbling against France last year, or Scotland this[/quote]

So when England lose they are beaten by a better team on the day, but that team are not better than them overall?
When France lose it is because they have mentally crumbled.
If there has been any instance of mentally crumbling in recent years it is Englands draw against Scotland.
In the second half that was a team in meltdown.
You are just making this up.

whatahitson wrote: I have showed why I think they are miles ahead
A win is a win.
You are also talking about form from the last two games as if they are all that matters.

Firstly I didn't claim only the last two games matter - yet another false reference to my post.
After your reply I decided fairs fair lets actually look at the 6N results(the one tournament where the senior NH teams play the same number of games against the same opponents)
Taking the last 4 years (including this one) we have a clear Irish win, a clear Welsh win and an England win where they tied on points with France.

Totally wins over the last 3 years and 2 matches are:

Ireland 11
Wales   11
France  10
England 10
Scotland  8
Italy        0

So lets use your criteria and look at results - how does the above record from the previous 3 1/2 show England are miles ahead of the other leading 6N teams??

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 22 Feb 2021, 10:00 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that in general rugby fans from Wales and Scotland would like to beat England more than any other country.
It is therefor their biggest games of the year and adds to the spice and competitiveness of the 6Ns.
Certainly Wales raise their game against the English as can be seen with their 6Ns record compared to their results eg. against NZ & Australia.


Could it be that England raise their game for matches against Scotland and Wales? Two sides of the coin thumbsup

The Stereophonics knew which side of their bread was buttered.

https://youtu.be/skApHVxkgAo thumbsup

I knew someone would bring this up, I just knew it.

This was done at a time when England were the dominant team in the NH, towards the end of the last millennium. They have been anything but since.

Best part of two decades, you have been at around the same level as the rest of us. OK

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Post by Recwatcher16 Mon 22 Feb 2021, 10:20 am

Wales v England is my favourite 6N game of the year. My welsh supporting friends get unbelievably tense before and during this game. My impression is they are more philosophical against the French and a little aggressive with the Irish, no idea why - I don't think they know either, unless it is reacting to media bait.

Last week Warburton as a pundit on tv when asked on welsh team selection for the England match, without prompting referred to it as the biggest welsh game of the year. I rest my case !!

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 22 Feb 2021, 11:19 am

Recwatcher16 wrote:Last week Warburton as a pundit on tv when asked on welsh team selection for the England match, without prompting referred to it as the biggest welsh game of the year. I rest my case !!

Probably because there is a triple crown on the table for Wales.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 22 Feb 2021, 11:30 am

Big games come down to personal circumstance a lot of the time. Warburton obviously has close family ties and used to support England (sat in is shirt watching the 03 final). add that to the ability of both teams to pick up the title at the end, adds a bit of spice.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 22 Feb 2021, 12:53 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Big games come down to personal circumstance a lot of the time. Warburton obviously has close family ties and used to support England (sat in is shirt watching the 03 final). add that to the ability of both teams to pick up the title at the end, adds a bit of spice.

I supported England in that game as well, I wanted a winner from the 6N. That does not make the England game the most important for me. OK

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Post by MonkeyMan Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:05 pm

Yes the Stereophonics did that stupid song but I would hardly say that sums up the real Welsh rugby fans

The Stereophonics are and always have been an abomination to music and anyone now who holds a "As long as we beat the English" attitude is either backwards or not a real fan

For the record I find a lot of England rugby fans bar a few are quite tidy (unlike the "Engerland" football lot who are pretty much all horrid)

I think England will win though and this will be their sweetest 6N victory this year whether they admit it or not

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:19 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Big games come down to personal circumstance a lot of the time. Warburton obviously has close family ties and used to support England (sat in is shirt watching the 03 final). add that to the ability of both teams to pick up the title at the end, adds a bit of spice.

I supported England in that game as well, I wanted a winner from the 6N. That does not make the England game the most important for me. OK

Literally saying that's theres a big part that is personal. For me its the England Scotland game.

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Post by MonkeyMan Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:31 pm

[quote="No 7&1/2"]
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Big games come down to personal circumstance a lot of the time. Warburton obviously has close family ties and used to support England (sat in is shirt watching the 03 final). add that to the ability of both teams to pick up the title at the end, adds a bit of spice.

I supported England in that game as well, I wanted a winner from the 6N. That does not make the England game the most important for me. OK
I was neutral...but when England won I thought maybe it would be good for NH rugby. I expected the aftermath from the fans and media...but not still being told in 2021..."Well we have won a world cup see so that makes us great and you rubbish"

All the England rugby fans I know would cheer against us in a RWC final but that's ok as they have no obligation to support us anyway

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Big games come down to personal circumstance a lot of the time. Warburton obviously has close family ties and used to support England (sat in is shirt watching the 03 final). add that to the ability of both teams to pick up the title at the end, adds a bit of spice.

I supported England in that game as well, I wanted a winner from the 6N. That does not make the England game the most important for me. OK

Literally saying that's theres a big part that is personal.  For me its the England Scotland game.

Where is he saying that ?

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:34 pm

MonkeyMan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Big games come down to personal circumstance a lot of the time. Warburton obviously has close family ties and used to support England (sat in is shirt watching the 03 final). add that to the ability of both teams to pick up the title at the end, adds a bit of spice.

I supported England in that game as well, I wanted a winner from the 6N. That does not make the England game the most important for me. OK
I was neutral...but when England won I thought maybe it would be good for NH rugby. I expected the aftermath from the fans and media...but not still being told in 2021..."Well we have won a world cup see so that makes us great and you rubbish"

All the England rugby fans I know would cheer against us in a RWC final but that's ok as they have no obligation to support us  anyway

Personally, I have nothing against England, or the English people in general, although there are few English fans on here who seem to take a lot of irk towards Wales and their fans.

Perhaps it's because historically there has been a bit of rivalry between the two nations, they are the two most successful home nations after all. Perhaps it's that ?

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Post by BamBam Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:40 pm

MonkeyMan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Big games come down to personal circumstance a lot of the time. Warburton obviously has close family ties and used to support England (sat in is shirt watching the 03 final). add that to the ability of both teams to pick up the title at the end, adds a bit of spice.

I supported England in that game as well, I wanted a winner from the 6N. That does not make the England game the most important for me. OK
I was neutral...but when England won I thought maybe it would be good for NH rugby. I expected the aftermath from the fans and media...but not still being told in 2021..."Well we have won a world cup see so that makes us great and you rubbish"

All the England rugby fans I know would cheer against us in a RWC final but that's ok as they have no obligation to support us  anyway

Don't be ridiculous, Wales would never make it to a RWC final

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Post by MonkeyMan Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:47 pm

BamBam wrote:Don't be ridiculous, Wales would never make it to a RWC final
Ah well they can cheer against us in the semi final then (like the last RWC and 2011 and 1987)

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:49 pm

Provided the opponents aren't England, I can't imagine not supporting Wales, Ireland or Scotland in a World Cup final. Until Sam Warburton saw red, it looked like a real possibility. Given the way they performed over the rest of that match, they probably should have gone on to the final.

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Post by MonkeyMan Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:52 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Perhaps it's because historically there has been a bit of rivalry between the two nations, they are the two most successful home nations after all. Perhaps it's that ?
There didn't seem to be as much resentment to us prior to Wales coming good (on and off) from 2005 onwards

I guess when you have a huge population and player pool it's always gonna annoy you a bit seeing small county with a tiny player pool say for example...help knock you out of your own world cup. Maybe that is it?

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 22 Feb 2021, 1:54 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Provided the opponents aren't England, I can't imagine not supporting Wales, Ireland or Scotland in a World Cup final. Until Sam Warburton saw red, it looked like a real possibility. Given the way they performed over the rest of that match, they probably should have gone on to the final.

I'd always back Ireland when not playing England but outside of that it would be a case by case basis. I'd want Fiji or Japan to beat Wales or Scotland for instance, nothing against either team but I prefer the style of certain teams. Just a shame I have to support England playing the way they are at the moment.

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Post by whatahitson Mon 22 Feb 2021, 2:22 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
whatahitson wrote:   No need to resort to profanity. I think you need to calm down.

A couple of points the profanity was a mild one and clearly directed at the content of your post, not yourself as an individual.
I am perfectly calm thanks, too old to let a thread like this bother me

whatahitson wrote:  You're worrying about style and 'fairness' (when is sport fair?).

You are saying 'don't judge them on what they've done judge them on what they might do'  

I am paraphrasing your argument.

geoff999rugby wrote:There you go misquoting me again.
I never said anything about fairness and your paraphrasing of my argument is incorrect.
It would help if in any disagreement with what I say you confine yourself to what I actually say not what you, falsely, have decided I said.

I am paraphrasing you why do you not understand what this is? Your actual quote was "Some players have been badly treated - dropping Lawrence completely when he didn't get a pass for 60 mins from" now this to me is complaining about how 'fair' sport is. It doesn't matter anyway it's a silly point to make thinking a decision is a black and white 'good or bad' decision.

whatahitson wrote: mentally look at the way they crumbled up in Scotland  ....

As opposed to England crumbling against France last year, or Scotland this

geoff999rugby wrote:So when England lose they are beaten by a better team on the day, but that team are not better than them overall?
When France lose it is because they have mentally crumbled.
If there has been any instance of mentally crumbling in recent years it is Englands draw against Scotland.
In the second half that was a team in meltdown.
You are just making this up.

Yes, one game doesn't mean a team is now better than the other team. Are Argentina better than New Zealand? No. Are South Africa better than England? By the looks of things, yes. Are Japan better then Scotland? Probably not. It's not top trumps.

Yes when France go in as favourites when a win would practically guarantee them their first six nations title in a decade and then play like muppets that looks like mental weakness. The kind of thing England did for years under Lancaster. England did not crumble under pressure against Scotland this year. They did in the draw against Scotland that's correct but also they knew going in to the game that the title had just been won by Wales so NO it's obviously not the same that was taking their foot off the gas and complacency not crumbling under pressure.

It's my opinion I am not 'making things up' you need to stop adding insults to your points. It doesn't make them better it's just rude.

geoff999rugby wrote:After your reply I decided fairs fair lets actually look at the 6N results(the one tournament where the senior NH teams play the same number of games against the same opponents)
Taking the last 4 years (including this one) we have a clear Irish win, a clear Welsh win and an England win where they tied on points with France.

Totally wins over the last 3 years and 2 matches are:

Ireland 11
Wales   11
France  10
England 10
Scotland  8
Italy        0

So lets use your criteria and look at results - how does the above record from the previous 3 1/2 show England are miles ahead of the other leading 6N teams??

3 six nations titles out of 5, they have beaten every major team in the rugby world in the last 2.5 years, they reached a world cup final where the other six nations teams finished 4th, quarter finalists, or out in the groups, and they have won the two trophies available to them after that world cup final.

Why don't you go back to 2016? Why do you only pick the last 3 years so you can include the two Irish and Welsh wins (which happened with different head coaches and lots of retired players) but you don't pick the two England titles?

Here are the wins if you'd like to include all six nations games since the 2015 world cup including this year so far:

England 19
Ireland 17
Wales 15
France 15
Scotland 13
Italy 0

If you also want to compare wins against teams outside the six nations go ahead.

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Post by whatahitson Mon 22 Feb 2021, 2:23 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:Last week Warburton as a pundit on tv when asked on welsh team selection for the England match, without prompting referred to it as the biggest welsh game of the year. I rest my case !!

Yes Wales do treat it like their biggest game BUT whoever wins this game wins the six nations.

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Post by MonkeyMan Mon 22 Feb 2021, 2:27 pm

whatahitson wrote:Here are the wins if you'd like to include all six nations games since the 2015 world cup including this year so far:

England 19
Ireland 17
Wales 15
France 15
Scotland 13
Italy 0
Yes England are the best. I don't think anyone has denied this. As a humble Taffy I bow down to your superiority and much better rugby record since 2015

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Post by Poorfour Mon 22 Feb 2021, 2:47 pm

MonkeyMan wrote:
I was neutral...but when England won I thought maybe it would be good for NH rugby. I expected the aftermath from the fans and media...but not still being told in 2021..."Well we have won a world cup see so that makes us great and you rubbish"

All the England rugby fans I know would cheer against us in a RWC final but that's ok as they have no obligation to support us  anyway

In the five RWCs from 2003-2019:
Italy - out in the pool stages every time
Scotland - 3 QF
Ireland - 3 QF
Wales - 2 SF 4 QF
France - 3 SF 5 QF
England 1 W 3 F 3 SF 4 QF

Even if you exclude 2003, that's an objectively better performance over the last 20 years on the world stage. They've also been consistently better in the AIs for most of that period, albeit with good and bad periods.

Things are closer in the 6 Nations, in part because of the format - Wales alternates whether it has Ireland and England at home, and Italy, Scotland and France away and vice versa, whereas England have to travel to Ireland and Wales or France Scotland and Italy in the same rotation. Over the period we're talking about, that has tended to favour whoever has the tougher two teams at home, assuming they can put in a good performance against France. Ireland have a tougher call in that they will always have one of England or Wales away. I think the results reflect that - though with France more consistent and Scotland resurgent we are heading into an era where there could well be fewer Grand Slams.
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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Mon 22 Feb 2021, 2:55 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that in general rugby fans from Wales and Scotland would like to beat England more than any other country.
It is therefor their biggest games of the year and adds to the spice and competitiveness of the 6Ns.
Certainly Wales raise their game against the English as can be seen with their 6Ns record compared to their results eg. against NZ & Australia.


Could it be that England raise their game for matches against Scotland and Wales? Two sides of the coin thumbsup

The Stereophonics knew which side of their bread was buttered.

https://youtu.be/skApHVxkgAo thumbsup

I knew someone would bring this up, I just knew it.

This was done at a time when England were the dominant team in the NH, towards the end of the last millennium. They have been anything but since.

Best part of two decades, you have been at around the same level as the rest of us. OK

Ok back to 1977 when Wales were the dominant team. Phil Bennett

We were playing England [1977]. In that situation, a game every Welshman is desperate to win, what do you say to JPR [Williams], JJ [Williams], Steve Fenwick, Terry Cobner and the Pontypool front row that’s any different? Off the cuff I began this rant: ‘Look at what these buggers have done to Wales. They’ve taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our houses and only live in them for two weeks of every year. We’ve been controlled, exploited, raped and punished by the English and that’s who you’re playing today, boys.’ I was pretty chuffed, although wasn’t sure Gareth had been taking it in. ‘And Gar,’ I said, ‘they’ve taken our rivers, too.’ He’s a great fisherman and he said: ‘What? The illegitimate childen!’”

Could he get away with that now? Probably not. Indeed when Joe Marler was fined and banned for calling Wales’ Samson Lee “Gypsy boy” another Englishman, Jeff Probyn, suggested there ought to be retrospective punishment for Bennett. “He wanted me to be stripped of my OBE and kicked out of the World Hall of Fame. I didn’t mean for my remarks to be taken personally by the England team we played. I had a fine drink with all of them after the match. Two of my best pals from the Lions tours are Peter Wheeler and Fran Cotton. I phoned Fran after this blew up and he said: ‘Don’t worry, Phil, everyone hates England. What do you think the Scots have said about us down the years?’!”

This to me sums it up nicely. kiss

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 22 Feb 2021, 2:56 pm

I would always support any NH team against a SH one in any competition, with the exception of complete underdogs such as Fiji etc.

Monkeyman, I started playing serious rugby in the 70s, I can assure you that over that period Wales had a very good side, not just post 2005. My first taste of Twickenham was watching Keith Jarrett kick Wales to a win. There was little resentment then, just jealousy of players like Edwards, John, JPR, William, Bennett etc.

Only a small minority hold resentment against a side because they are better than their side but it works both ways, not just English /Welsh. Just look at a few of the posters on here.
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