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England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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Post by alfie Sun 14 Feb 2021, 9:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Knight thinks they won't enforce the follow on. I'm not so sure.

Still two wickets needed anyway. 22 runs.

As I say I don't mind spinning pitches. I do think this one was a bit extreme : had England batted first I doubt they'd have made 329 ; but they might have made 220 and that would probably have made them favourites.
But essentially I agree :India are in this position because they've bowled a lot better and three or four batsmen played innings that England have not come near to matching. Credit where it is due...

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Post by msp83 Tue 16 Feb 2021, 5:42 am

Kuldeep on, and in that first over at least, he again was a bit inconsistent with his lengths.
He may end up doing better as he goes on, but I feel now its time to ask him to focus more on working on his bowling. There is no Ranji this season and we are going to have a lot of limited overs cricket in coming months. Kuldep is too aluable a talent to be lost. Not sure what he needs is more limited overs at this point, he needs to bring in greater discipline into his bowling, and find a way to bowl a bit faster through the air without losing his flight. Easier said than done of course, but he does need to find a way.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 16 Feb 2021, 5:42 am

Oh Ollie. That's a really poor dismissal. Under pressure against good bowling on a tough pitch but that's still very poor. He's a better player than that dismissal.

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Post by KP_fan Tue 16 Feb 2021, 5:43 am

Stokes & then Pope's dismissals show that sweeping and slogging formula ain't the answer to playing spin....
There are no clever formuals....you have to organically play well
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Post by alfie Tue 16 Feb 2021, 5:44 am

Three for Axar...he's made a good start to his career clap

Pope will be disappointed. Got a few starts ; not gone on yet on this tour. Tough today , but even so.

111/6 and Root (albeit a bit lucky early on) standing out and emphasising the gulf between him and the rest of the Rngland batting...

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Post by KP_fan Tue 16 Feb 2021, 5:48 am

kuldeep is not getting his loop & hence length right
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Post by KP_fan Tue 16 Feb 2021, 5:52 am

awful drop...shattered kuldeep
Sundar was hard done by Rohit dropping dolly and butler caught behind not given in T1
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Post by alfie Tue 16 Feb 2021, 5:52 am

Poor Kuldeep ! Should have had Root , of all wickets...

That was a real sitter. Siraj won't want to see that on YouTube Smile

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Post by msp83 Tue 16 Feb 2021, 5:54 am

alfie wrote:
msp83 wrote:Good showing from Root, and Stokes is slowly finding his way around. The ball has gone soft and the pitch is doing not a lot extraordinary though there is life for bowlers. Wonder what happened to all those who were moaning about the pitch?

With all due respect , msp , I think you and others are making a bit too much of this "moaning about the pitch" theme. Yes , a lot of people - myself included - thought , and think , that the condition of this pitch from the first day left a lot to be desired.  Ask yourself honestly whether even you would be happy had England batted first , made 300 , and won the match overwhelmingly ? Not saying this would have happened : India have shown in this match that they are better equipped to perform in these conditions and might have do fared much better. But still...
I'm also on record as saying I don't really mind rank turners , now and then. In fact I prefer them to "dead" pitches like the MCG in the last Ashes Series , as an example. Just wouldn't want them every week.

India's strong batting has made this pitch look "better" than it actually is , in my view. And that is down to (a) the brilliance of Rohit (b) some good support from the three other bats who managed to cope with the conditions well enough to pass twenty  (c) some mediocre English bowling. (That's  the first innings. The second , as I'm sure you recognise , was more down to the fielding team having been mentally shot by lunch yesterday)
Doesn't make it a "good" pitch.  I've seen worse. What the ICC assessors will make of it we will see in due course.  But again , I do not blame the pitch for the result. Clear ?
Alfie, reducing the excellent ski.ls that Kohli showed, or what Ashwin did to the bowling losing it is a great disservice to what they did. Kohli showed truly excellent technique to survive on that track. Ashwin's runs were low pressure runs for sure, but he again showed clarity of thought and decent technique to do what he did.
And as KC has observed above, the turn and bounce has been more or less consistent on this track throughout the first 2 innings. The toss has been of lesser significance on this track than in the first test. India batted more than 180 overs on this unplayable track.

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Post by msp83 Tue 16 Feb 2021, 5:57 am

Had that been taken, Kuldeep's confidence might have improved. When its not going for you, nothing does!

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Post by KP_fan Tue 16 Feb 2021, 5:58 am

Sweep formula of Eng brings another downfall...of Foakes...after the root drop last over
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Post by msp83 Tue 16 Feb 2021, 5:59 am

Kuldeep gets on the board at last!

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Post by alfie Tue 16 Feb 2021, 6:01 am

Sure , msp...great respect to Kohli and Ashwin. But you know what I mean.

And aren't you trying to have it both ways ? Mocking the talk of "unplayable" on the one hand ; while saying Kohli had to display "excellent technique to survive on this track" ?

I don't know how often I have to say it. India have played really well , England completely outplayed. But it is still far from a "good" pitch for Test Cricket ; even if fun for a one-off.

I think I'll leave it there.

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Post by msp83 Tue 16 Feb 2021, 6:02 am

KP_fan wrote:Sweep formula of Eng brings another downfall...of Foakes...after the root drop last over
The unfortunate thing is that Foakes is a much better player of spin than reducing himself to that. Can't put it down to the pitch.

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Post by msp83 Tue 16 Feb 2021, 6:08 am

alfie wrote:Sure , msp...great respect to Kohli and Ashwin. But you know what I mean.

And aren't you trying to have it both ways ? Mocking the talk of "unplayable" on the one hand ; while saying Kohli had to display "excellent technique to survive on this track" ?

I don't know how often I have to say it. India have played really well , England completely outplayed. But it is still far from a "good" pitch for Test Cricket ; even if fun for a one-off.

I think I'll leave it there.
How would a batsman having to earn his runs means that the pitch is bad? If a batsman score runs against spin bowling only if it doesn't spin, what are we even talking about? Rohit in the first innings, and Kohli in the 2nd innings showed remarkable, better skills than all of the English batsmen on a demanding track. The track was demanding, it demanded lots of skills playing spin that Kohli, Shar ma and even Ashwin showed. English batsmen struggle because they haven't shown that skill level. Just like lots of Indian batsmen did, would struggle against the seaming, swing ball.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 16 Feb 2021, 6:09 am

msp83 wrote:Alfie, reducing the excellent ski.ls that Kohli showed, or what Ashwin did to the bowling losing it is a great disservice to what they did. Kohli showed truly excellent technique to survive on that track. Ashwin's runs were low pressure runs for sure, but he again showed clarity of thought and decent technique to do what he did.
And as KC has observed above, the turn and bounce has been more or less consistent on this track throughout the first 2 innings. The toss has been of lesser significance on this track than in the first test. India batted more than 180 overs on this unplayable track.
From the posts I've seen there's been nothing but praise for Ashwin's bowling supported by Axar nor nothing but praise for Rohit, Rahane, Kohli and Ashwin's batting. A few of us praised Pujara's important 90 minute effort when the ball was doing a bit on day 1 as well.

The general feeling seems to be that India has batted, bowled and fielded better in this Test and will be very deserved winners.

It's possible to think that India have played very well whilst also thinking that a pitch shouldn't give as much turn and variable bounce on day 1 of a Test match though. Pitches also don't need to be unplayable to be below the ideal standard for Test cricket. I'd note on the standard of pitches issue that I've been frequently critical of England for producing green seamers which I consider the exact same thing.

My main frustrations with pitches like these is that it tends to have a knock on effect for future Tests in return series. If the England team and coaches are feeling unhappy with this wicket it wouldn't surprise me at all if they respond by producing a green top at Lords in the summer with a game lasting little more than 3 days. So often with issues like these in cricket we see a view of 'well they did it so we shall too'. In my opinion it leads nowhere and isn't productive for the game long term.

As said I've not heard anyone question India's performance or skill when commenting on the pitch. It's a fantastic batting lineup backed up by the best spinner in Test cricket and some very good seamers. I've been mightily impressed by Axar and Washington as well. A potent combination.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 16 Feb 2021, 6:25 am

India have been better in every facet but the pitch is not of test standard, numerous ex players and commentators have stated the same thing. The game only entered a fourth day because India wanted it to.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 16 Feb 2021, 6:35 am

alfie wrote:
king_carlos wrote:I feel Bess was hard done by but Mo has replicated his tendency of picking up wickets whilst bowling poorly. It wouldn't surprise me if you're right and England stick by him, alfie.

Overall Bess for Mo isn't why we've lost this match. The worries about top order frailty and Root not being able to score a match winning century in every first innings this winter coming home to roost.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jimmy plays the remaining two Tests which will be a big boost. Still our best exponent of reverse swing. Though Wood can also add there. Stone is better with the new ball and Wood better with the old ball I'd say so that might depend on the pitch. It would be a huge boost if Archer can play again this series.

The batting is anyone's guess and as you say they often spring surprises on us.

Agree England were likely to struggle in this match once they lost the toss and no way to know whether Bess might have done any better than Mo . My problem with the view that Moeen got better as the match went on , etc - and ended up with 8 wickets for the match - is that in the crucial period of the first day he provided absolutely zero control , undermining some good bowling from Stone and Leach in particular. I would argue he was overbowled  (Root himself , even Lawrence , might have been used in short snaps) Or Stokes could have had another go despite his early two (!) over spell being fairly dismal.  But it seemed England had a "plan" involving Moeen bowling a lot of overs and they were sticking to it no matter what...

I think it is not unreasonable to suggest that this match was essentially won and lost on day one and so I tend to largely disregard performances later in the game as being of little moment.  Doesn't mean Mo "has to go"  : he did improve as the match went on ; at least to a point. (And it is fair to say he was coming off little  - well actually no - recent match practice ) But to me it is when you perform in a match that is often more important than the raw figures ; so arguments that an 8 wicket "haul" is a good result leave me rather unimpressed.

Just reading Dobell who indicates Mo is likely to be off for his home R & R break anyway after this match. If so it simplifies some issues. I would actually expect only one spinner to play the pink ball  game unless the pitch is tricked up dramatically in favour of spin - and the fact that India rested Bumrah in advance of that match suggests that may not be too likely. Apart from the obvious return of Jimmy , the rest of next week's attack could be anyone...

We will see.

If we’re going to start arbitrarily deciding what does and doesn’t count in terms of performances Alfie, aren’t none of us ever going to be wrong ever again? Smile

I agree with Carlos, replacing Bess’s assortment of full tosses (most in a game by an England spinner bar the infamous Mason Crane performance at Sydney in the last test btw) half trackers and the odd good ball, with Moeen’s assortment of full tosses, half trackers and the odd good ball hasn’t really made much difference. Arguably missing Bess’s batting more I’d say. Ultimately if England are relying on either of them to do the bulk of the work, then we’re up a creek without a paddle (albeit I’d actually argue if the pitch in T3 is like this one, all three spinners should play...)

See England haven’t put up too much resistance this morning. A dominant victory for the Indians, and well deserved
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Post by alfie Tue 16 Feb 2021, 6:45 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:
king_carlos wrote:I feel Bess was hard done by but Mo has replicated his tendency of picking up wickets whilst bowling poorly. It wouldn't surprise me if you're right and England stick by him, alfie.

Overall Bess for Mo isn't why we've lost this match. The worries about top order frailty and Root not being able to score a match winning century in every first innings this winter coming home to roost.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jimmy plays the remaining two Tests which will be a big boost. Still our best exponent of reverse swing. Though Wood can also add there. Stone is better with the new ball and Wood better with the old ball I'd say so that might depend on the pitch. It would be a huge boost if Archer can play again this series.

The batting is anyone's guess and as you say they often spring surprises on us.

Agree England were likely to struggle in this match once they lost the toss and no way to know whether Bess might have done any better than Mo . My problem with the view that Moeen got better as the match went on , etc - and ended up with 8 wickets for the match - is that in the crucial period of the first day he provided absolutely zero control , undermining some good bowling from Stone and Leach in particular. I would argue he was overbowled  (Root himself , even Lawrence , might have been used in short snaps) Or Stokes could have had another go despite his early two (!) over spell being fairly dismal.  But it seemed England had a "plan" involving Moeen bowling a lot of overs and they were sticking to it no matter what...

I think it is not unreasonable to suggest that this match was essentially won and lost on day one and so I tend to largely disregard performances later in the game as being of little moment.  Doesn't mean Mo "has to go"  : he did improve as the match went on ; at least to a point. (And it is fair to say he was coming off little  - well actually no - recent match practice ) But to me it is when you perform in a match that is often more important than the raw figures ; so arguments that an 8 wicket "haul" is a good result leave me rather unimpressed.

Just reading Dobell who indicates Mo is likely to be off for his home R & R break anyway after this match. If so it simplifies some issues. I would actually expect only one spinner to play the pink ball  game unless the pitch is tricked up dramatically in favour of spin - and the fact that India rested Bumrah in advance of that match suggests that may not be too likely. Apart from the obvious return of Jimmy , the rest of next week's attack could be anyone...

We will see.

If we’re going to start arbitrarily deciding what does and doesn’t count in terms of performances Alfie, aren’t none of us ever going to be wrong ever again? Smile

I agree with Carlos, replacing Bess’s assortment of full tosses (most in a game by an England spinner bar the infamous Mason Crane performance at Sydney in the last test btw) half trackers and the odd good ball, with Moeen’s assortment of full tosses, half trackers and the odd good ball hasn’t really made much difference. Arguably missing Bess’s batting more I’d say. Ultimately if England are relying on either of them to do the bulk of the work, then we’re up a creek without a paddle (albeit I’d actually argue if the pitch in T3 is like this one, all three spinners should play...)

See England haven’t put up too much resistance this morning. A dominant victory for the Indians, and well deserved

Don't we already do that , Olly ? Smile But seriously , I think you'd agree a four or five wicket on the first day is intrinsically worth more than a similar collection in "junk time" second innings - same goes for batting , no ? Pressure , etc.

If the pitch for T3 is the same as this I suspect they are indeed in trouble ! Think it will be a little different though.

This day going largely as expected.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 16 Feb 2021, 6:50 am

Do we think Broad will last enough balls to justify asking him to pay up his match fees? Smile


Last edited by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 16 Feb 2021, 6:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by msp83 Tue 16 Feb 2021, 6:54 am

Soul Requiem wrote:India have been better in every facet but the pitch is not of test standard, numerous ex players and commentators have stated the same thing. The game only entered a fourth day because India wanted it to.
Many former and current players have said that while it was a demanding pitch, it was not a bad pitch.

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Post by msp83 Tue 16 Feb 2021, 6:54 am

5for on debut for Axar Patel.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 16 Feb 2021, 6:56 am

England should’ve tried this tactic of hitting every ball for six earlier I reckon Wink
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Post by alfie Tue 16 Feb 2021, 7:09 am

Was huge fun while it lasted ! Moeen enjoyed himself...

Unless perhaps India were secretly planning to get him a score to keep him in the team Smile

Emphatic win for India ...well done clap clap clap

One all and two to play. England's turn to do some re-thinking...

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 16 Feb 2021, 7:26 am

Rohit as man of the match is easy really, without him the result could have been different if unlikely. I feel India win regardless of Ashwin who bowled very well no doubt.

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Post by KP_fan Tue 16 Feb 2021, 7:27 am

With consummate ease he smacked the great indian spin attack to every corner of the park.

And with that THE Maligned Ali became Eng's top scorer in 2nd innings
In addition to attaining the top score for Eng in the entire match

In addition to picking most wickets for Eng in each of the innings and top wicker taker.for eng in the match
And the top wicker taker for Eng not only in this test but best match bowling by any English bowler in this series
Wait that's not all, he also ended being highest wicker taker from either sided in this match in the illustrious company of Ashwin.
Ohh My GAWD 😃
This man can win a Decathalon Gold
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Post by alfie Tue 16 Feb 2021, 7:31 am

Looking ahead : I see that in the previous pink ball Test in India , the home team's twenty wickets were all taken by their seamers... Shocked

Can we expect a green top ?

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Post by msp83 Tue 16 Feb 2021, 7:38 am

The previous D/N test was played the Edan in Kolkata. Don't really know what Ahmedabad would offer. Hope it would be another lively track, spinning or seaming, not the dead road for the team batting first track for the first test.

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Post by KP_fan Tue 16 Feb 2021, 7:41 am

msp83 wrote:The previous D/N test was played the Edan in Kolkata. Don't really know what Ahmedabad would offer. Hope it would be another lively track, spinning or seaming, not the dead road for the team batting first track for the first test.

Ahmedabad will be a copy/ paste , replica of this pitch.
And India will win even if they lose the toss on a pitch like this
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 16 Feb 2021, 7:48 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Rohit as man of the match is easy really, without him the result could have been different if unlikely. I feel India win regardless of Ashwin who bowled very well no doubt.

Agree, it was a magnificent knock - game defining.
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Post by GSC Tue 16 Feb 2021, 7:55 am

Don't think it was a good pitch but that's really just noise, England were just roundly outplayed. India's use of it was drastically different to England's.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 16 Feb 2021, 7:55 am

Some broadcasting news - Sky have won the right for the ODI and T20 leg of this tour, and will be doing remote commentary ala the Sri Lanka series

Also Graeme Swann is replacing Mark Butcher for the 3rd test on the world/channel four feed...yikes
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Post by JDizzle Tue 16 Feb 2021, 7:57 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Some broadcasting news - Sky have won the right for the ODI and T20 leg of this tour, and will be doing remote commentary ala the Sri Lanka series

Also Graeme Swann is replacing Mark Butcher for the 3rd test on the world/channel four feed...yikes

Butcher criticising the Third Umpire after the Rahane (non) dismissal really went down badly then!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 16 Feb 2021, 8:01 am

Alfie - Dobell’s note about Ali’s designated stint at home being after this test has just been confirmed by Root.

So really England will be deciding whether they play Bess or the extra seamer for the next two games
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Post by Duty281 Tue 16 Feb 2021, 8:29 am

Strong win for India. Rohit's amazing first-innings stint and Ashwin's bowling the difference between the sides. Sadly it was a test overshadowed by some embarrassing umpiring and a substandard pitch.

Best news I've heard is Moeen will be out of the side and not returning for the rest of the series. The BBC are saying he will be 'rotated' out of the side, but surely that's nonsense. You rotate a player when you want to rest them e.g. Anderson/Buttler/Stokes have all played a lot of cricket in recent months and have been rotated out of proceedings, at various times, to give them a rest. This is the first game Moeen's played since November, he doesn't need a rest. Gamble tried, gamble failed, move on.

The third test will be a different game altogether under lights and with dew. England will be much stronger, conditions more to their liking, and a good chance of bouncing straight back, as India did. A possible team may well be:

Crawley; Sibley; Bairstow; Root; Stokes; Pope; Foakes; Leach; Wood/Stone; Broad; Anderson.

A longer tail, yes, but a stronger top seven with the bat. No need for two spinners, with Root able to pick up the slack if required. I'd be happy to stick with Stone as the true-pace option, but England might turn to Wood or even Archer if his injury is healed.

Unfortunate for Channel 4 that Sky have the limited-overs games. Those games will drag in the biggest audience, so naturally it was to be expected that Sky would be happy to bid higher for them.

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Post by JDizzle Tue 16 Feb 2021, 9:10 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Alfie - Dobell’s note about Ali’s designated stint at home being after this test has just been confirmed by Root.

So really England will be deciding whether they play Bess or the extra seamer for the next two games

I did predict before the series that we would see Virdi at some point on this series. Fully expecting India to smash Bess and Moeen about a bit. If we see more tracks like this one, with Moeen at home and Bess seemingly out of favour then I am feeling more confident about that.

A note about Moeen - Root said it was his choice to fly home now. So England clearly wanted him to stay out there. And if we have Bess and Leach passes for improving throughout the first Test in SL, Mo should get some credit too, give he was coming off a bout or Covid too. Whether England should be saying it was Moeen’s choice, or insulating him like they did Wood, Buttler etc is another matter.

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Post by GSC Tue 16 Feb 2021, 9:11 am

Not sure with Moeen rocked up for one test in 18 months and went home...

Needs some looking at in general. Not sure changing the team every game helps, maybe a block of games would work better
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 16 Feb 2021, 9:18 am

JDizzle wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Alfie - Dobell’s note about Ali’s designated stint at home being after this test has just been confirmed by Root.

So really England will be deciding whether they play Bess or the extra seamer for the next two games

I did predict before the series that we would see Virdi at some point on this series. Fully expecting India to smash Bess and Moeen about a bit. If we see more tracks like this one, with Moeen at home and Bess seemingly out of favour then I am feeling more confident about that.

A note about Moeen - Root said it was his choice to fly home now. So England clearly wanted him to stay out there. And if we have Bess and Leach passes for improving throughout the first Test in SL, Mo should get some credit too, give he was coming off a bout or Covid too. Whether England should be saying it was Moeen’s choice, or insulating him like they did Wood, Buttler etc is another matter.

Hmm I wasn't impressed with how that was presented, personally. I think it should be the head coach/head of selectors talking about this rotation policy, not the captain...because of course he wants his players to stay on! (It was widely reported before the first test they talked to Buttler about staying on, but he also chose not too...but that wasn't broadcast).

I see GSC's note about a missing a block of games might be better...I think they're trying to make the best of a bad situation and there is no definite solution/answer that is going to satisfy everyone. Personally, I think being proactive and erring on the side of caution with everyone is the better outcome, than the other side of being reactive/burning players out, but as I say, I don't think there is a "right" answer.

Ultimately the schedule makers/powers above at the ECB have put together, what is quite frankly a ridiculous schedule of cricket in normal times, let alone in Covid/bubble life. But we don't hear from them...so Smith/Silverwood are both going to have to try and manage it and take the flak at the same time
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Post by KP_fan Tue 16 Feb 2021, 9:23 am

https://www.skysports.com/cricket/news/12040/12219619/england-all-rounder-moeen-ali-chooses-to-fly-home-and-will-miss-third-test-against-india

Moeen Ali walks out (in disgust)....all's not well in the English dressing room
Is my read of the situation Shocked
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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 16 Feb 2021, 9:30 am

I understand the rotation policy but it's far from perfect. Buttler I understand as he'll be selected throughout the year but I can't imagine Bairstow will play test cricket after India so should have been available throughout. 6 tests and white ball cricket doesn't seem too excessive.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 16 Feb 2021, 9:52 am

Soul...it would've left him away from home in the bubble for 3 straight months, and rhat coming soon after the IPL and SA white ball. Its not playing too much cricket but the effects on players and family relationships thats led to the rotation policy. Bear in mind they were locked up for much of the summer too, and the policy was decided upon on the assumption the same could be the case this summer.

Even in the era of multi month tours before air travel players did not spend this amount of time isolated and away from their families.

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Post by guildfordbat Tue 16 Feb 2021, 10:22 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Some broadcasting news - Sky have won the right for the ODI and T20 leg of this tour, and will be doing remote commentary ala the Sri Lanka series

Also Graeme Swann is replacing Mark Butcher for the 3rd test on the world/channel four feed...yikes

Like cancelling the night out with Peter Sutcliffe and getting Harold Shipman to come round instead.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 16 Feb 2021, 10:26 am

Mo situation is very odd reading into it. It wasn't a planned rest, and by the time he gets home he will have to set off back almost straight away to complete the quarantine period. Perhaps some specific family issues he's facing, or just another sign of his long term struggles with the pressures of international cricket.

He did exceed reasonable expectation in this test and in spite of his early struggles was Englands top all round contributor. Hard to know whats happened behind closed doors but the coaches were up his bum in the media, but perhaps the post game "honestly" wash up had some criticism for the filth he bowled early on letting India build a winning platform before the batsmen had a chance to fail.

Comments from Root make it clear it was his decision and that he's had a tough time missing out in SL, but that they didn't want him to go. Could drive a wedge between the leadership and Mo in both directions; him unhappy with how hes treated and them with him for walking out.

Impossible to know the rights and wrongs and details at this point but all washes back to Mo being a player who's always struggles with the pressures to perform and been affected personally by criticism and failure. At least he didn't melt down mid game this time but its exactly why it would be best for England to try and move on from him. England have gone out of their way to support him and quite likely in other eras he wouldve been discarded long ago for being soft.

Has to be a balance, England are doing what they can to look after their players but there's still a point where individuals have to be able to cope. Not a clear answer, and not sure there's a bad guy in this.

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Post by guildfordbat Tue 16 Feb 2021, 10:26 am

Olly - if you have time, I would like to see your (usual type) individual player ratings and comments for this second Test. Could be very interesting, me thinks.

I also always enjoy Alfie's detailed analysis after he's been pretty dismissive of the concept. Laugh

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 16 Feb 2021, 11:26 am

guildfordbat wrote:Olly - if you have time, I would like to see your (usual type) individual player ratings and comments for this second Test. Could be very interesting, me thinks.

I also always enjoy Alfie's detailed analysis after he's been pretty dismissive of the concept. Laugh

Sounds like a good task for a lockdown evening - will have a stab tonight thumbsup
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Post by Gooseberry Tue 16 Feb 2021, 1:39 pm

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/nobody-knows-anything-about-test-cricket-thank-god-1251789

Fun article about declarations and what a pair of blowhards Warne and Vaughn are.

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Post by JDizzle Tue 16 Feb 2021, 1:56 pm

England have announced a 17 man squad for the Third Test.

Joe Root (c), James Anderson, Jofra Archer, Jonny Bairstow, Dominic Bess, Stuart Broad, Rory Burns, Zak Crawley, Ben Foakes, Dan Lawrence, Jack Leach, Ollie Pope, Dom Sibley, Ben Stokes, Olly Stone, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood

Isn’t this just everyone that is out there at the moment?! Bar the already states reserves. Love the absolute pointlessness of it.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 16 Feb 2021, 2:18 pm

JDizzle wrote:England have announced a 17 man squad for the Third Test.

Joe Root (c), James Anderson, Jofra Archer, Jonny Bairstow, Dominic Bess, Stuart Broad, Rory Burns, Zak Crawley, Ben Foakes, Dan Lawrence, Jack Leach, Ollie Pope, Dom Sibley, Ben Stokes, Olly Stone, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood

Isn’t this just everyone that is out there at the moment?! Bar the already states reserves. Love the absolute pointlessness of it.
I'd imagine that's just clarifying the squad situation for those who haven't kept up with the rotation policy fully. Moeen heading home and Buttler still away. Bairstow and Wood back. Hopefully Jof is fit as it would be great to have Jof and Anderson back for the 3rd Test.

On the Mo situation, he once again exceeded expectations in some ways and didn't in others. Some fabulous deliveries mixed with inconsistency and explosive potential with the bat but not match influencing innings.

It's completely conceivable that could have been Mo's final Test match. If so he has had some excellent performances throughout his career interspersed with dramatic collapses in form. 189 wickets at 36 with a good strike rate and poor economy sums up the bowler pretty well.

His batting average in my opinion could have been higher but Test batting is very different to County cricket as we know. I think it was Atherton who said, "County cricket is largely a game of batting from the waist down and Test cricket largely a game of batting from the waist up". It's frequently true and Mo's struggles with the short ball were exposed by pace. 5 centuries shows he could get it very right at times.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 16 Feb 2021, 2:30 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Soul...it would've left him away from home in the bubble for 3 straight months, and rhat coming soon after the IPL and SA white ball. Its not playing too much cricket but the effects on players and family relationships thats led to the rotation policy. Bear in mind they were locked up for much of the summer too, and the policy was decided upon on the assumption the same could be the case this summer.

Even in the era of multi month tours before air travel players did not spend this amount of time isolated and away from their families.
That's a good post, Goose.

It's not a perfect solution but it's miles from a perfect situation. Getting cricket on at all has taken some extraordinary measures that we wouldn't have conceived a year ago. I can completely understand the players needing a break and to see their families at these times.

Whilst focus has understandably been on the players situations (bubbles, isolated hotels, two week quarantines, etc) I also think it's important to remember that their families back home don't have normal lives currently either. Being away from family when you know they have their normal lives and support back home is already tough. When your family are in a national lockdown, spouses with young children having less help with child support, kids unable to attend school/clubs, etc it must be much more difficult knowing your family back home are in a tough spot and you're not there to help.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 16 Feb 2021, 3:30 pm

king_carlos wrote:
JDizzle wrote:England have announced a 17 man squad for the Third Test.

Joe Root (c), James Anderson, Jofra Archer, Jonny Bairstow, Dominic Bess, Stuart Broad, Rory Burns, Zak Crawley, Ben Foakes, Dan Lawrence, Jack Leach, Ollie Pope, Dom Sibley, Ben Stokes, Olly Stone, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood

Isn’t this just everyone that is out there at the moment?! Bar the already states reserves. Love the absolute pointlessness of it.

It's completely conceivable that could have been Mo's final Test match. If so he has had some excellent performances throughout his career interspersed with dramatic collapses in form. 189 wickets at 36 with a good strike rate and poor economy sums up the bowler pretty well.
.

Definitely conceivable Carlos, albeit I wouldn't say it is nailed on, especially with Leach's well noted issues with illness...which while we hope he is fully over, could flare up at any point. The batch of youngsters coming through haven't overtaken Moeen yet for my money.
Albeit, the next scheduled tour of a subcontinental nation is to Pakistan in the winter of 2022 (how good is that going to be, fingers crossed!)...so you'd hope some of the youngsters like Bess are fully established by then.

I've put my Statsguru ability to the test...and looked at post war spinners for England to have taken 20+ wickets here - https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=2;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=wickets;qualmin2=20;qualval2=wickets;spanmin1=1+Jan+1945;spanval1=span;team=1;template=results;type=bowling

Moeen only behind Underwood, Laker and Swann in terms of wickets taken, and actually has the best strike rate of all post war spinners for England. But as you not, the economy is high, and only beaten by Rashid and Salisbury (two leggies)...which does sum up both the good and the bad of Moeen as a test cricketer.

Still, even if the test career might be in the rear view mirror, a big year or two of white ball cricket awaits...and he'll very much be in the plans for that (his batting effort today evidencing why, particularly with the next T20 and ODI World Cups being held in India!)
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Post by Afro Tue 16 Feb 2021, 3:43 pm

Thats a great table Olly.

It also demonstrates that, other than Swanny, it has been some time since we had a spinner with an average under 30 and an economy under 3, but Leach is actually quite close to Swann's figures (albeit over a much shorter career to date)
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