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Irish Provinces Non Irish players

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Pot Hale
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Post by geoff999rugby Thu 18 Feb 2021, 1:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

Interested in who the various Irish provinces will have on their books next year who are NIQ or only qualify through residency

I'll start with Ulster

NIQ - Nakarawa, Carter
Residency - None

Assumes Faddes, Ludik and Matthewson are all away - a fairly safe bet I'd say

What is the situation elsewhere?

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Post by Intotouch Tue 06 Jul 2021, 4:49 am

So what is the limit now for the provinces on NOQ players? (From memory they were limited to four NIQ players and one project players but that’s me trying to recall something that I read a couple of years ago at least) Is there a limit on the number of NIQ players per position too? Eg. only one NIQ out half in the country at any one time.



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Post by geoff999rugby Wed 14 Jul 2021, 4:45 pm

There is no limit on numbers or positions.
There is a trend to reduce the overall numbers though.
Ulster for example have only one NIQ (Carter) next season.
Faddes and Mathewson are officially out the door.

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Post by Maine man Wed 14 Jul 2021, 8:37 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:There is no limit on numbers or positions.
There is a trend to reduce the overall numbers though.
Ulster for example have only one NIQ (Carter) next season.
Faddes and Mathewson are officially out the door.

Is there any word that Ulster will pick up an overseas player before the start of the season?

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Post by geoff999rugby Wed 14 Jul 2021, 9:04 pm

Looking but nothing at an advanced stage.

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Post by geoff999rugby Fri 23 Jul 2021, 11:54 am

Pot Hale wrote:Taking the 10th May post above and reworking to the way I prefer to view are there any inaccuracies/updates to the following@ 

Ulster:
NIQ - Sam Carter (Aus)
Residency Qualified - Bradley Roberts


Munster
NIQ - RG Snyman (SA), Damian de Allende (SA), Jason Jenkins (SA)
Residency Qualified - Keynan Knox, Chris Cloete, Roman Salonoa, Jean Kleyn

Connacht
NIQ - John Porch (Aus), Ben O'Donnell (Aus), Abraham Papalli'i (NZ) (Qualifies 2025)
Residency Qualified - Jared Butler, Bundee Aki

Leinster
NIQ - Michael Alaalatoa (Sam)
Residency Qualified - James Lowe, Jamison Gibson-Park, Vakh Abdaladze

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Post by geoff999rugby Fri 23 Jul 2021, 12:02 pm

Taking the 10th May post above and reworking to just view certain elements are there any inaccuracies/updates to the following: 

Ulster:
NIQ - Sam Carter (Aus)
Residency Qualified - Bradley Roberts

Munster
NIQ - RG Snyman (SA), Damian de Allende (SA), Jason Jenkins (SA)
Residency Qualified - Keynan Knox, Chris Cloete, Roman Salonoa, Jean Kleyn

Connacht
NIQ - John Porch (Aus), Ben O'Donnell (Aus), Abraham Papalli'i (NZ) (Qualifies 2025)
Residency Qualified - Jared Butler, Bundee Aki

Leinster
NIQ - Michael Alaalatoa (Sam)
Residency Qualified - James Lowe, Jamison Gibson-Park, Vakh Abdaladze

So Ulster and Leinster have 1 NIQ player each whilst Connacht and Munster have 3 each
Residency is Ulster 1, Connacht 2, Leinster 3, Munster 4

It seems clear to me that next year Ulster and Leinster could cope without any of the above.
Munster and Connacht are, by contrast, very dependant on their 'blow-ins'

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Post by geoff999rugby Fri 21 Jan 2022, 9:02 am

Resurrecting this one to speculate on 22/23

There seems there will be a lot of movement at Munster

Ulster seems to shaping up as follows:

NIQ - Carter, Vermuelen, New LH
Project - none

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri 21 Jan 2022, 11:53 am

Rumours of Jason Jenkins going from Munster to Leinster. It's as if the Leinster pack required strengthening...

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri 21 Jan 2022, 11:54 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Taking the 10th May post above and reworking to just view certain elements are there any inaccuracies/updates to the following: 

Ulster:
NIQ - Sam Carter (Aus)
Residency Qualified - Bradley Roberts

What on earth happened Very Happy

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Post by geoff999rugby Fri 21 Jan 2022, 12:13 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Rumours of Jason Jenkins going from Munster to Leinster. It's as if the Leinster pack required strengthening...

To be honest other than Baird and Ryan I don't think they are not convinced by their Locks.
Moloney is decent cover but Toner will be 36 next season and its kids after that

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Post by geoff999rugby Fri 21 Jan 2022, 12:14 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Taking the 10th May post above and reworking to just view certain elements are there any inaccuracies/updates to the following: 

Ulster:
NIQ - Sam Carter (Aus)
Residency Qualified - Bradley Roberts

What on earth happened Very Happy

You nicked him so we showed him the door Very Happy

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Post by profitius Mon 24 Jan 2022, 8:22 pm

Munster fielded an IQ 23 at the weekend. First time in 20 years or more doing that I would guess.
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Post by Pot Hale Tue 25 Jan 2022, 11:53 am

For 2022/23 season at this point:

Aus: Sam Carter (Uls), John Porch, Ben O'Donnell (Con), Michael Alaalatoa (Lei)
SA: RG Snyman (Mun), Jason Jenkins (Lei poss.), D Vermuelen (Uls)
Ton: Leva Fifita (Con) Malakai Fekitoa (Mun)


Last edited by Pot Hale on Mon 16 May 2022, 1:19 am; edited 10 times in total
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Post by geoff999rugby Tue 25 Jan 2022, 12:07 pm

As I mentioned I think Reidy will retire
Jenkins will be playing for Leinster not Munster I believe
Also reported on Munster site that Cloete is leaving
Under point 4 I think I am correct Abdaladze is the only one where both parents were born abroad

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 25 Jan 2022, 12:31 pm

It's still my belief (fools hope) that Jason Howell Jenkins is WQ. Once he becomes residency qualified for Ireland having been away from the Springboks for a few years, we'll probaly cap him.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 25 Jan 2022, 3:41 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:As I mentioned I think Reidy will retire
Jenkins will be playing for Leinster not Munster I believe
Also reported on Munster site that Cloete is leaving
Under point 4 I think I am correct Abdaladze is the only one where both parents were born abroad

Thanks Geoff.  Wasn’t aware of Reidy’s intent.
I have Jenkins down for poss move to Leinster.
Not surprised about Cloete with the young ones behind him.  
Abdaladze moved to Ireland when he was a child aged 5 I think so was a citizen before playing rugby even.  

I’ve made adjustments - keep the updates coming.

It is interesting that England is now the largest number for foreign-born players.
SANZA has been diminishing as a source of players for a number of years.
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Post by Kingshu Tue 25 Jan 2022, 7:19 pm

Pot Hale wrote:For 2022/23 season at this point:


1. NIQ Players

A.  Ineligible Players - (capped elsewhere or not RQ)

Aus: Sam Carter (Uls), John Porch, Ben O'Donnell (Con), Michael Alaalatoa (Lei)
SA: RG Snyman (Mun), Jason Jenkins (Lei poss.), D Vermuelen (Uls)
Ton: Leva Fifita (Con)
Sam: Tietie Tuimauga (Con)

B. Residency Qualified Players uncapped by Ireland

SA: Keynan Knox - Mun
US: Roman Salanoa - Mun
Aus: Jarad Butler - Con

2. Residency Qualified and Ireland capped

SA: Jean Kleyn (Mun)
NZ: Bundee Aki (Con), James Lowe, Jamison Gibson-Park (Lei)

3. Parent/Grandparent Qualified (*=uncapped)

Eng: Will Addison, Billy Burns, Kieran Treadwell, Sean Refell* (Uls) Matt Gallagher*, Mike Haley (Mun), Kieran Marmion, Alex Wootton, Mathew Burke* (Con)
SA: Rob Herring (Uls), Shayne Bolton* (Con)
Zim: Angus Curtis* (Uls)
NZ: Dom Robertson-McCoy* (Con), Declan Moore (Mun/Uls)*
Aus: Finlay Bealham, Mack Hansen* (Con)

4. Qualified by moving, or family returning to Ireland, as a child *=uncapped

Vakh Abdaladze - Georgia*
Cormac Izuchukwu - Eng*
Joey Carbery - NZ
Jeremy Loughman - US*
Jordi Murphy - Spa
Nick McCarthy - USA*
Ciaran Frawley - Aus*
Luke McGrath - Can

32 adult foreign-born by Province:
Connacht: O'Donnell, Porch, Fifita, Bealham, Tuimauga, Hansen, Wootton, Robertson-McCoy, Bolton, Marmion, Burke, Aki, Butler.
Ulster: Curtis, Herring, Addison, Burns, Treadwell, Refell, Carter, Vermuelen.
Munster: Gallagher, Haley, Kleyn, Salanoa, Knox, Snyman, Moore.
Leinster: Alaalatoa, Gibson-Park, Lowe, (Jenkins?).

32 adult foreign-born by birth country
SA: 7
Eng: 9
Aus: 7
NZ: 5
Ton: 1
Sam: 1
USA 1
Zim: 1

32 (18%) out of 180 senior squad players - 82% homegrown.
12 (6.7%) capped once or more for Ireland.
4 (2%) in last 6N test squad.

Goup 4 is pointless as they are all covered by other groups. All but Abdaladze were born Irish Qualified so there isnt a need to list them. Abdaladze moves to group 1B. You can asrtrix him if you like.

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Post by geoff999rugby Tue 25 Jan 2022, 10:25 pm

I agree with that

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Post by profitius Wed 26 Jan 2022, 10:50 am

Pot Hale wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:As I mentioned I think Reidy will retire
Jenkins will be playing for Leinster not Munster I believe
Also reported on Munster site that Cloete is leaving
Under point 4 I think I am correct Abdaladze is the only one where both parents were born abroad

Thanks Geoff.  Wasn’t aware of Reidy’s intent.
I have Jenkins down for poss move to Leinster.
Not surprised about Cloete with the young ones behind him.  
Abdaladze moved to Ireland when he was a child aged 5 I think so was a citizen before playing rugby even.  

I’ve made adjustments - keep the updates coming.

It is interesting that England is now the largest number for foreign-born players.  
SANZA has been diminishing as a source of players for a number of years.  

Maybe in 10 years Australia will be a big source of players if the amount of people I know who have moved there is anything to go by.
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Post by Pot Hale Wed 26 Jan 2022, 2:01 pm

[quote="Kingshu"][quote="Pot Hale"]For 2022/23 season at this point:

Thanks Kingshu.  They’re separate because they all moved to Ireland at a young age and were developed by the Irish rugby system.  The others were developed by other rugby unions and moved as adults.  
So I prefer to keep them distinct - hope that explains


Last edited by Pot Hale on Wed 20 Apr 2022, 11:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by thebandwagonsociety Fri 28 Jan 2022, 8:32 am

I see Josh Murphy is heading over to Connacht for next season. That's a good pickup (lock and backrow option). Not sure I understand the logic from Leinster pov in moving him out and bringing in Jenkins from Munster.

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Post by Pot Hale Fri 28 Jan 2022, 10:15 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I see Josh Murphy is heading over to Connacht for next season.  That's a good pickup (lock and backrow option). Not sure I understand the logic from Leinster pov in moving him out and bringing in Jenkins from Munster.

Leinster have 9 back row players - not enough game time for some of them with the rearranged season. Connacht have to sign an Irish qualified lock/backrower. Jenkins would have to be signed as a backrower cum lock (similar to Scott Fardy) to notionally stay within the quota guidelines of 1 foreign player in each position that Snyman and Carter already fill.

Jenkins is a more suitable player than Murphy is presumably the logic, and keeps Leinster senior squad at budgeted limit - 46 players.

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Post by geoff999rugby Fri 28 Jan 2022, 10:33 am

[quote="] Pot Hale Connacht have to sign an Irish qualified lock/backrower.   Jenkins would have to be signed as a backrower cum lock (similar to Scott Fardy) to notionally stay within the quota guidelines of 1 foreign player in each position that Snyman and Carter already fill.  
[/quote]

That idea has been ditched - it is a player by player decision between the Provinces and the IRFU

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Post by Pot Hale Fri 28 Jan 2022, 11:48 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
\" wrote: Pot Hale Connacht have to sign an Irish qualified lock/backrower.   Jenkins would have to be signed as a backrower cum lock (similar to Scott Fardy) to notionally stay within the quota guidelines of 1 foreign player in each position that Snyman and Carter already fill.  

That idea has been ditched - it is a player by player decision between the Provinces and the IRFU

It's still a position by position decision too, Geoff. Journalists and pundits still comment about if a particular player is being signed "as a 6" rather than as a lock. That's why I said notionally.

However, it's not worth arguing over.
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Post by geoff999rugby Sat 29 Jan 2022, 10:05 am

Definitely not worth arguing about.
I do however think you will find there will be multiple props next year.
I’ll list then later, after the weekend.

One fact that interests me is a breakdown, by province, of NIQ, Residence qualified/qualifying, Grandparent qualified.

For Ulster next year:
NIQ - Vermuelen, Carter, LH?
Residency - none
Granparent -  Burns, Milasinovich, Herring

I don’t know about Reffell as to whether it is a parent or a grandparent

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 02 Feb 2022, 3:13 am


I was reading about Finn Wright - an IQ Aussie who's a relation of Owen Finnegan - qualified through grandparent moving to Connacht.  They are likely to lose props - Robertson-McCoy, and Tuimauga, and possibly entice another Leinster prop down the M4/6.
Where does Curtis fit into things - father born in Zim, and grandfather born in Shanghai apparently but both played for Ireland?
And I see that Moore is now staying on with Ulster - he's grandparent qualified too.


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Post by geoff999rugby Wed 02 Feb 2022, 8:03 am

He either qualifies through his mother, or a grandparent

Not sure which

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 02 Feb 2022, 9:51 pm

Malakai Fekitoa, born/raised in Tonga and a former NZ residency qualified player is moving from Wasps to Munster on two-year contract. It’s presumed he will replace De Allende.
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Post by Pot Hale Thu 24 Feb 2022, 12:05 pm

Jason Jenkins confirmed to play for Leinster next season. Matt Gallagher leaving Munster for Bath. Connacht add in IQ and NIQ to their squad and likely have 11 players leaving against the 12 they’re bringing in including 6 from their academy and 4 from Leinster.  


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Post by Pot Hale Wed 16 Mar 2022, 11:25 pm

Any more likely foreign signings or moves to be announced? I picked up the latest ones for Connacht.
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Post by geoff999rugby Thu 17 Mar 2022, 11:12 am

Not at Ulster.
I assume Kearney is not being resigned but everything else is already decided.
So we have two no NIQs Vermuelen and Carter and no project qualified and no players qualifying via that route.
Everyone else is IQ by birth and/or Parentage.

Also hearing all provinces are reducing their overall salary levels.
Ulster introducing more and more young players to do this.
Leinster are reducing their overall numbers to do this.

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 17 Mar 2022, 3:20 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Not at Ulster.
I assume Kearney is not being resigned but everything else is already decided.
So we have two no NIQs Vermuelen and Carter and no project qualified and no players qualifying via that route.
Everyone else is IQ by birth and/or Parentage.

Also hearing all provinces are reducing their overall salary levels.
Ulster introducing more and more young players to do this.
Leinster are reducing their overall numbers to do this.

Yep Geoff. Provinces are all cutting salary costs by 10% in line with the shorter season player requirements.  
I see young Jake Flannery is heading north from Munster on a 1-year deal.
Connacht have 12 coming in - so far - and only 3 leaving announced officially - Arnold, Papalli, Dillane. Rumoured for exit are Robb, Healy, O'Halloran, Sullivan, O'Donnell, Masterson, Murphy and Robertson-McCoy.

Sexton effectively finishing with the club at next season end and no flyhalf ready in their academy, wonder what they’ll do there - possibly Frawley used there again.  The whole coaching group’s contracts also end in June 2023 as well.
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Post by profitius Thu 17 Mar 2022, 4:25 pm

I'd say Connacht might be letting a few go. We'll know more in a few weeks.
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Post by Pot Hale Thu 17 Mar 2022, 4:29 pm

profitius wrote:I'd say Connacht might be letting a few go. We'll know more in a few weeks.

See above, Prof for likely names Smile
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Post by profitius Tue 29 Mar 2022, 7:33 pm

De Allende confirmed leaving.
Ngatai rumoured arriving.
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Post by thebandwagonsociety Tue 05 Apr 2022, 1:30 pm

Dan Leavy - early retirement through injury. A big loss to the game.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 20 Apr 2022, 11:09 pm

No news from Leinster yet about possible signing of Charlie Ngatai from Lyon who got a single cap for NZRU as a sub in 2015.  Munster meanwhile have announced the hiring of Antoine Frisch, a French-born midfield player currently playing with Bristol.  He is Irish-qualified through his maternal grandmother and is on a 3-year contract.  Should be an interesting combo with Fekitoa.  Toner and Cronin have announced retirements from Leinster. Charlie Ryan and 3 more academy players have been promoted.


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Post by geoff999rugby Thu 21 Apr 2022, 7:11 am

I’ve been told Reidy has already left

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Post by Unclear Thu 21 Apr 2022, 1:53 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:I’ve been told Reidy has already left

I hope not, the BBC have him on the bench for Friday night's game Very Happy Guess he will go at the end of the season, you said before he was likely to retire.

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Post by geoff999rugby Thu 21 Apr 2022, 4:58 pm

Yep saw that.
Looks like he has been given a game to say good buy.
Sentimentality ruling head.
This game is too important for that

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 11 May 2022, 11:50 am

Confirmed foreign-born departures from Irish rugby to date are: Arnold, Dillane, Papalli'i, Cloete, Gallagher, Tuimauga, Roberts, O'Donnell and Robertson-McCoy.  (9)
Confirmed coming in are: Fekitoa, Hurley-Langton, Ralston, Refell, Moore, Frisch. (6)


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Post by geoff999rugby Thu 12 May 2022, 10:15 am

Abdaladze is Residency qualified.
(I know he moved as a child)

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 12 May 2022, 6:15 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Abdaladze is Residency qualified.
(I know he moved as a child)

We've been over this, Geoff.

He moved as a child and became an Irish citizen. So he's not a residency-qualified adult rugby player who moved as an adult and spent 3 years playing rugby here and then selected for the national team. That's the distinction.
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Post by geoff999rugby Fri 13 May 2022, 11:54 am

We have covered before,but two points:

Firstly, in his situation you don't just become an Irish citizen you have to apply for it and it is not cheap.
I know because I have relatives in the same boat.
He is loaded but I can find no reports of his applying for Irish citizenship.

Secondly I have read reports of his stated intention to return to Georgia once his playing days are over.
So good luck to him but for me he remains a 'blow in' inspite of his arrival at a young age

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Post by Pot Hale Sat 14 May 2022, 10:41 am

geoff999rugby wrote:We have covered before,but two points:

Firstly, in his situation you don't just become an Irish citizen you have to apply for it and it is not cheap.
I know because I have relatives in the same boat.
He is loaded but I can find no reports of his applying for Irish citizenship.

Secondly I have read reports of his stated intention to return to Georgia once his playing days are over.
So good luck to him but for me he remains a 'blow in' inspite of his arrival at a young age

Right.
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Post by Kingshu Sat 14 May 2022, 5:15 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:We have covered before,but two points:

Firstly, in his situation you don't just become an Irish citizen you have to apply for it and it is not cheap.
I know because I have relatives in the same boat.
He is loaded but I can find no reports of his applying for Irish citizenship.

Secondly I have read reports of his stated intention to return to Georgia once his playing days are over.
So good luck to him but for me he remains a 'blow in' inspite of his arrival at a young age

Right.  

Agree with Geoff but for other reasons, its just complicating something that it relatively straight forward.

There are 3 ways to qualify to play for Ireland.
1) Birth - born in Ireland
2) desendacy- irish parent or grandparent
3) residency- lived in ireland a set number of years.

And thats, it no need for when they qualifed for residency or anything else, what if Knox qualifed under residency when he was 17? Would you remove him from the list as he moved to Ireland as a child. What if Jager returned to Ireland, would he be on the list as he returned as a professional rugby player? Just keep it simple

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Post by Pot Hale Sun 15 May 2022, 1:54 am

Kingshu wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:We have covered before,but two points:

Firstly, in his situation you don't just become an Irish citizen you have to apply for it and it is not cheap.
I know because I have relatives in the same boat.
He is loaded but I can find no reports of his applying for Irish citizenship.

Secondly I have read reports of his stated intention to return to Georgia once his playing days are over.
So good luck to him but for me he remains a 'blow in' inspite of his arrival at a young age

Right.  

Agree with Geoff but for other reasons, its just complicating something that it relatively straight forward.

There are 3 ways to qualify to play for Ireland.
1) Birth - born in Ireland
2) desendacy- irish parent or grandparent
3) residency- lived in ireland a set number of years.

And thats, it no need for when they qualifed for residency or anything else, what if Knox qualifed under residency when he was 17? Would you remove him from the list as he moved to Ireland as a child. What if Jager returned to Ireland, would he be on the list as he returned as a professional rugby player? Just keep it simple

I have. He’s not a residency qualified rugby player as generally understood of an adult player who moved to Ireland and played rugby whilst living here for 36 consecutive months. Now it’s 60 months. Abdaladze became an Irish citizen long before that occurred and grew up in Ireland learning his rugby here. I think both of you understand the difference. If you don’t accept my reasoning, that’s fine with me. As I’ve said before, no one’s stopping you creating your own list of whatever you want.
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Post by geoff999rugby Sun 15 May 2022, 10:34 am

There is no distinction between being eligible to play for a country through residency at 5, 15, 25 or 35.
Regardless of age you are eligible for selection once you pass the designated time period.

What we should aim for is to be factually accurate and to be factually accurate the way Abdaladze is qualified to play for Ireland is through residency and for no other reason.

You say he is an Irish citizen, are you sure?
As I said there is no evidence he has applied for citizenship.
Qualifying to play for the national side through residency is NOT the same as taking up citizenship. As I mentioned gaining citizenship, for someone in his situation, is both expensive and lengthy.
Add to that fact he has publicly declared his intention to return to Georgia after his playing days are over

It best to designated people accurately when categorising how they become eligible. Adding factors that are not relevant to their qualification just muddies the waters.

If we are going down that route can we have a special status for Angus Curtis.
He came here to go to University at 19, both his dad and his grandfather played for Ireland.
Surely that entitles him to a special mention?

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Post by Pot Hale Mon 16 May 2022, 12:03 am

geoff999rugby wrote:There is no distinction between being eligible to play for a country through residency at 5, 15, 25 or 35.
Regardless of age you are eligible for selection once you pass the designated time period.

What we should aim for is to be factually accurate and to be factually accurate the way Abdaladze is qualified to play for Ireland is through residency and for no other reason.

You say he is an Irish citizen, are you sure?
As I said there is no evidence he has applied for citizenship.
Qualifying to play for the national side through residency is NOT the same as taking up citizenship. As I mentioned gaining citizenship, for someone in his situation, is both expensive and lengthy.
Add to that fact he has publicly declared his intention to return to Georgia after his playing days are over

It best to designated people accurately when categorising how they become eligible. Adding factors that are not relevant to their qualification just muddies the waters.

If we are going down that route can we have a special status for Angus Curtis.
He came here to go to University at 19, both his dad and his grandfather played for Ireland.
Surely that entitles him to a special mention?

I couldn’t agree with you more, Geoff.  Please feel to draw up a list anyway you want. I have deleted the one I created to avoid confusion. Yourself and Kinghu seem to have a better handle on it.
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Post by geoff999rugby Fri 27 May 2022, 9:58 am

Taking up your suggestion and following on from Ulsters end of season clear out:

NIQ - Vermuelen, Carter
Residency Qualified - None
Currently Qualifying via Residence - None
G/Parents - Herring, Burns, Refell

I have not include Curtis or Declan Moore because there status is uncertain
They would be added to the G/Parents lists if they have been retained
I have also not listed those qualified through parents as that is not something that particularly interests me

Would interested i nthe same breakdown for other provinces

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