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ENGLAND vs FRANCE - Match Thread - 13/3/21 16:45pm

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Post by TightHEAD Thu 11 Mar 2021, 11:18 am

First topic message reminder :

Starting XV

15. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 6 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 49 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 37 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 91 caps) (C)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 64 caps)
10. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 75 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 107 caps)

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 65 caps)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 42 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 46 caps)
5. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
6. Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 21 caps)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 31 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 59 caps)

FINISHERS
16. Jamie George (Saracens, 57 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
19. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 11 caps)
21. Dan Robson (Wasps, 10 caps)
22. Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, 4 caps)
23. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 50 caps

FRANCE XV

Dulin; Thomas, Vakatawa, Fickou, Penaud; Jalibert, Dupont; Baille, Marchand, Haouas; Taofifenua, Willemse; Cretin, Ollivon (capt), Alldritt.

Replacements: Chat, Gros, Aldegheri, Cazeaux, Woki, Jelonch, Serin, Ntamack.


Last edited by TightHEAD on Fri 12 Mar 2021, 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 12 Mar 2021, 12:50 pm

Depends on what style of FB Jones wants though...

Does he want to keep with a playmaker at 15...then i cant see Daly being thrown out once he regains a bit of confidence. Hes a 50 cap player...who knows the system inside out.

Or does he want a rock......Steward is the obvious...6'5 will naturally bulk out aswell.


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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 12 Mar 2021, 4:13 pm

Steward played flyhalf at school and can kick for goal. He won't play 10 at senior level but I think he can link the backline together well. Those skills are slowly emerging in his game where as the defensive aspects came almost instantly. I'd still suggest the best comparisons I've heard for him are Francois Steyn if he keeps bulking out and gets aggressive or Tim Stimpson if we look at Tigers of the past though I think he's a bit quicker than Stimmo was.

If you look at Parton, Hodge and Freeman those that are coming up behind the current options, Steward is probably the one most capable of stepping into a receiver role, he's played 13 for Tigers previously. The other three are fleet footed back three options. Eddie's kick happy ways might be satisfied more with a back three including more of those lads so we are solid tactically with strike runners in attack. Might sort of see it in the summer if Parton and Steward both tour. May is nearly 31 with Daly and Watson to be 30 or more by the next world cup.

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Post by Sharkey06 Fri 12 Mar 2021, 4:43 pm

If the statistics on a certain search engine are to be believed there is an interesting match up in the second rows:

Romain Taofifénua Height 2.00m Weight 133 Kgs
Paul Willemse Height 2.01m Weight 135 Kgs
Charlie Ewels Height 1.99m Weight 108 Kgs
Maro Itoje         Height 1.95m Weight 115 Kgs

A combined weight difference of 45 Kgs or over 7 stones for the imperial amongst us.  Perhaps this is why Eddie keeps picking Billy over Sam Simmonds, to balance up the weight whilst we lack some larger second rows.  It will be an interesting test to see how England's pack go against a much bigger pack after their struggles in the WC final against a powerful SA side.

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Post by mountain man Fri 12 Mar 2021, 5:38 pm

Sharkey06 wrote:If the statistics on a certain search engine are to be believed there is an interesting match up in the second rows:

Romain Taofifénua Height 2.00m Weight 133 Kgs
Paul Willemse       Height 2.01m Weight 135 Kgs
Charlie Ewels        Height 1.99m Weight 108 Kgs
Maro Itoje            Height 1.95m Weight 115 Kgs

A combined weight difference of 45 Kgs or over 7 stones for the imperial amongst us.  Perhaps this is why Eddie keeps picking Billy over Sam Simmonds, to balance up the weight whilst we lack some larger second rows.  It will be an interesting test to see how England's pack go against a much bigger pack after their struggles in the WC final against a powerful SA side.

Can't be arsed to check stats but French backrow pretty solid also. They are also rather good unfortunately. However, absolute size not necessarily main thing, I'd pick Itoje in any world XV. Pity though Kruis gone and Launchbury out injured. They did so much hard "unseen" work, no-one has really replaced them. I really rate Lawes although he is another somewhat light 2nd row.
Hill and Ewels just haven't shined so far.

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Post by Mr Bounce Fri 12 Mar 2021, 5:50 pm

Let's remember that France only just squeaked past Ireland. Full Strength France who are supposed to be this all-conquering side who can create from anywhere. They have had disruption and haven't played since that game. So there's a chink of hope for England.

Looking forward to it, with some trepidation. Could be good, could be very bad. Eek. Shocked

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri 12 Mar 2021, 7:39 pm

Jonny Hill is probably someone who could address the height and weight concerns? Don’t have to drop any locks just put Itoje at 6.

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Post by Sharkey06 Fri 12 Mar 2021, 8:35 pm

I fully accept mountain's point about Itoje being top quality if not the biggest - size isn't everything. I think Hill's main problem (and Ewels) is that he isn't Kruis - as seems to be the case you only fully appreciate players when they aren't playing.

As we have lost 2 games already it is a no pressure game. if we lose it has been a cr@p 6 Nations for us and we forget about it and move on. If we win then at least we have beaten the best team in the competition and the 2 loses were blips.

I can't say I wil be watching tomorrow with much expectation, but matches against France are usually entertaining. I do expect the referee to play a big part in tomorrow's game with one team or the other gettinga red card. With the crackdown on high tackles, ruck clean outs and touching jumpers in the air we are always one small miscalculation away from a red card.

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Post by Armchairexpert Fri 12 Mar 2021, 8:51 pm

Has a captain ever received a red card in an international match?

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Fri 12 Mar 2021, 9:05 pm

Armchairexpert wrote:Has a captain ever received a red card in an international match?

Sam Warburton

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Post by whatahitson Fri 12 Mar 2021, 9:06 pm

Armchairexpert wrote:Has a captain ever received a red card in an international match?

Sam Warburton.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 12 Mar 2021, 9:22 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Depends on what style of FB Jones wants though...

Does he want to keep with a playmaker at 15...then i cant see Daly being thrown out once he regains a bit of confidence. Hes a 50 cap player...who knows the system inside out.

Or does he want a rock......Steward is the obvious...6'5 will naturally bulk out as well.
First off, I agree Daly needs to sit. But at least when he committed his errors in the last match, they were all with him trying to attack the Welsh directly and aggressively as opposed to the halfbacks and midfield.
His mistakes were very basic and needs to be rectified right away, but at least he knew the direction of the try line. I wouldn't be surprised if he was putting too much pressure on himself as an(almost only) attacking option.

I think the question about whether he is a fullback or outside centre is another question.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 12 Mar 2021, 9:24 pm

He hasn't been an outside centre for about 8 years even then his weakness was defence. He'd be ripped apart at international level.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 12 Mar 2021, 9:38 pm

Wilson needs a big game....huge fan but he's not been great.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 12 Mar 2021, 9:48 pm

Its the wrong balance for him. He's not a 6 with this back row. He's an 8 with a underhill curry/Willis. Not quick enough or smart enough at the breakdown.

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Post by quinsforever Fri 12 Mar 2021, 10:02 pm

Finally Daly on the bench. Woeful against Wales, and not a test 15 IMO. big boot aside.

if we can stay just the right side of illegal i think we might win. wrong side of it we lose comfortably.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 12 Mar 2021, 10:15 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Its the wrong balance for him. He's not a 6 with this back row. He's an 8 with a underhill curry/Willis. Not quick enough or smart enough at the breakdown.

Honestly, he just looks off the pace. I like the balance in form, but are any of them in form?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 12 Mar 2021, 10:25 pm

I really don't like him and vunipola in the same 3. Wilson best form for England was at 8 but with a very different balance. Vunipola was very good vs Wales I thought.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 12 Mar 2021, 10:39 pm

He was...Wilson was not.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 12 Mar 2021, 10:42 pm

Yes. I'm as far away a Wilson fam as you get but he's not being given the platform.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 12 Mar 2021, 10:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes. I'm as far away a Wilson fam as you get but he's not being given the platform.

And I'm a huge Wilson fan, as you know. I don't think he's been deserving of his spot. And here lies the issue....too many guys out of form.

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Post by whatahitson Fri 12 Mar 2021, 10:54 pm

I wonder who will get verbally abused if England lose tomorrow. It seems a 'when' not 'if' situation these days.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 12 Mar 2021, 11:23 pm

Just warming up pooly.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 12 Mar 2021, 11:40 pm

whatahitson wrote:I wonder who will get verbally abused if England lose tomorrow. It seems a 'when' not 'if' situation these days.
Amongst ourselves or in the England set-up? Or maybe the referee?

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Post by Sharkey06 Fri 12 Mar 2021, 11:59 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
whatahitson wrote:I wonder who will get verbally abused if England lose tomorrow. It seems a 'when' not 'if' situation these days.
Amongst ourselves or in the England set-up?  Or maybe the referee?  

I suspect the interviewer who knows naff about rugby asking stupid questions.

Most England fans won't be too exercised if England lose against France - I think most of us are expecting it. Eddie will get criticism, but he will pay no attention to it and will keep picking his favourites and ignoring players in form. It is all part of his 'mystique' - he knows better than the rest of us. The RFU won't have the b@lls to sack him, so we will totter onto the next world cup. Eddie will leave and there will be no succession planning whatsoever as England under Eddie go through coaches at the rate of 1 or 2 a season. If you disagree with Eddie in any way shape or form, you get the bullet. Same for the players - just ask Danny Care Mike Brown etc.

Here endeth the rant for today.

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Post by whatahitson Sat 13 Mar 2021, 7:37 am

doctor_grey wrote:
whatahitson wrote:I wonder who will get verbally abused if England lose tomorrow. It seems a 'when' not 'if' situation these days.
Amongst ourselves or in the England set-up?  Or maybe the referee?  

I suppose anyone could be the unfortunate target in these crazy, crazy times. I wouldn't be shocked to find someone blaming Mr England's flag waving given some of the irrational bile that gets posted on social media.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Mar 2021, 7:45 am

Sharkey06 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
whatahitson wrote:I wonder who will get verbally abused if England lose tomorrow. It seems a 'when' not 'if' situation these days.
Amongst ourselves or in the England set-up?  Or maybe the referee?  

I suspect the interviewer who knows naff about rugby asking stupid questions.

Most England fans won't be too exercised if England lose against France - I think most of us are expecting it.  Eddie will get criticism, but he will pay no attention to it and will keep picking his favourites and ignoring players in form.  It is all part of his 'mystique' - he knows better than the rest of us.  The RFU won't have the b@lls to sack him, so we will totter onto the next world cup. Eddie will leave and there will be no succession planning whatsoever as England under Eddie go through coaches at the rate of 1 or 2 a season.  If you disagree with Eddie in any way shape or form, you get the bullet.  Same for the players - just ask Danny Care Mike Brown etc.

Here endeth the rant for today.

I like a turnover of coaches. If your main guy is there for several years its only natural the guys under him will develop and get roles themselves. The other situation is like Gatland who just plodded along with the same guys, new ideas are good.

We don't really know that if you disagree you're gone. Care always seems to talk about jim pretty positively and I think brown would have been fine if he hadn't have got into fisty cuffs.

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Post by mountain man Sat 13 Mar 2021, 7:56 am

Sharkey06 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
whatahitson wrote:I wonder who will get verbally abused if England lose tomorrow. It seems a 'when' not 'if' situation these days.
Amongst ourselves or in the England set-up?  Or maybe the referee?  

I suspect the interviewer who knows naff about rugby asking stupid questions.

Most England fans won't be too exercised if England lose against France - I think most of us are expecting it.  Eddie will get criticism, but he will pay no attention to it and will keep picking his favourites and ignoring players in form.  It is all part of his 'mystique' - he knows better than the rest of us.  The RFU won't have the b@lls to sack him, so we will totter onto the next world cup. Eddie will leave and there will be no succession planning whatsoever as England under Eddie go through coaches at the rate of 1 or 2 a season.  If you disagree with Eddie in any way shape or form, you get the bullet.  Same for the players - just ask Danny Care Mike Brown etc.

Here endeth the rant for today.

Have to say I agree, I've always been a fan of Eddie Jones and defended him but lately I'm not so sure. This picking of his favourites and ignoring unquestionably better form players is a mystery, especially as he is the one who bangs on about building for RWC 2023. He definitely a better coach than me and everyone else on here and other media but there are also a lot of ex payers who are very knowledgeable and respected  who are starting to doubt him. Maybe his grand plan(is there one?) will come to fruition but the way he goes about selection seems odd.

BTW, totally agree about stupid interviewer who knows naff all!

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Post by geoff999rugby Sat 13 Mar 2021, 2:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He hasn't been an outside centre for about 8 years even then his weakness was defence. He'd be ripped apart at international level.

Spot on - England should never ever play Daly at 13

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:18 pm

Just got in after my first outdoor full-on contact Rugby practice and feel like crap and great at the same time. Definitely too many miles on the body for this. But still great fun with my son looking great.

Thinking of the game today, let's assume the players are OK, then I think it comes down to whether they actually play what is in front of them or rigidly to 'the plan'. Against Wales, England would get on the front foot, make some territory edging into Wales half, then kick possession away. I could potentially understand if the forward momentum had stopped, but in these cases, it hadn't. In other words, let's see if the players, at the right times, actually play some Rugby instead of a programmed robotic version of it.

Song for the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:20 pm

What does Ewells actually bring yo this England team?

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Post by whatahitson Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:24 pm

COME ON ENGLAND! rose

Time to prove the doubters wrong.

England by 15.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:25 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:What does Ewells actually bring yo this England team?
I think he brings the beer to the training sessions.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:27 pm

Before the tournament started i would have said England by 10/15 points.

But given France have won both their games England will have to play bloody well too even score 10/15 points in the whole game.


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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:28 pm

Jeez Johnny rabbits on Laugh

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Post by Duty281 Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:46 pm

French haven't won here in the Six Nations since 2005. Likely changes today.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:47 pm

Great start.

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Post by BigGee Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:47 pm

Well that was just magic!

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Post by whatahitson Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:48 pm

No problem with giving the French a headstart. Still going to win by 15.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:48 pm

That was exceptional stuff from the French backs.

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Post by miltonkeynesengland Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:48 pm

Allen les blues...magnifique

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Post by tigertattie Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:50 pm

Both teams are chucking the ball around with little regard for keeping hold of it

Might be a high scoring mental game
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Post by BigGee Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:51 pm

Good response from England

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:51 pm

Powerful stuff from England.

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Post by whatahitson Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:52 pm

938kg French pack. That's big.

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Post by miltonkeynesengland Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:55 pm

Patience...that's the key for the England try

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:55 pm

Really nice play since that try. Curry is carrying bloody hard through the line.

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Post by whatahitson Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:56 pm

Well deserved try. Needlessly forcing it early on but they show what they can do when the forwards get the ball rolling.

France looking headless, trying to play for everywhere in the first 10 minutes.

It bodes well for a healthy England win.

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Post by BigGee Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:56 pm

Fantastic response, this has got the making of a great game

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Post by BamBam Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:57 pm

Best thing about the response has been retaining the ball through a number of phases without giving away any penalties. Seems like it's the first time we've done that well this 6N

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Post by Duty281 Sat 13 Mar 2021, 4:57 pm

French defence was good for the most part - they undermined it themselves by those silly quick line-outs, when they should have been grateful for the short stoppage.

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