The v2 Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

+26
Irish Londoner
y ddraig goch
thebandwagonsociety
doctor_grey
PhilBB
Kingshu
Cyril
Oakdene
tigertattie
mikey_dragon
Jimmy Moz
No 7&1/2
The Oracle
LeinsterFan4life
BigGee
profitius
Pot Hale
Pete330v2
geoff999rugby
BamBam
Brendan
neilthom7
RiscaGame
Old Man
LordDowlais
bsando
30 posters

Page 12 of 15 Previous  1 ... 7 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15  Next

Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by bsando Thu 11 Mar 2021, 6:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Error_10

If the Pro 16 wants to compete with the likes of the other top leagues in Europe and further abroad, they need to part ways with Premier Sports. The current Premier Sports contract with the Pro 14 finishes at the end of this season it still remains to be seen if this will be renewed or another broadcaster will takeover the rights.

Many fans have voiced their dislike of the online platform which after several seasons appears to be stable via Sky or Virgin sports packages but less so as an outright online viewing package. Coupled with annoying multiple login requirements to swap from devices and random lost connection error codes before, during and even when trying to watch on demand matches, it would be a real shame to see the new Pro 16 format begin in this manner.

Do you feel the upcoming Pro 16 competition would be a good addition to BT Sports or Sky Sports or even one of the streaming platforms like Amazon Prime?

Would it be better for a return to the domestic networks in a similar format as before?

Could CVC play a part in this decision with their recent investment in the Pro 14 league and 6N?

bsando

Posts : 3474
Join date : 2011-11-27
Age : 32
Location : London

Back to top Go down


Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by Brendan Mon 24 May 2021, 12:24 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Brendan wrote:
If the English cap was brought in Ospreys and Scarlets would be harmed just as much as Ulster and Munster.  Leinster have half the squad on academy for first professional contract and those players alone are still hard to beat and would be a massive wage bill.

For the 2020-21 Salary Cap Year, the level of the Salary Cap was £6.4 million, dropping to  £5 million for 21/22 with the following credits and exclusions:
•• Home Grown Player Credits totalling £600,000 (up to £50,000 per player) – designed to incentivise clubs to retain home grown talent;
•• EPS/International Player Credits not overall limit but up to £80,000 per player – to cover player absence during international periods;
•• Injured Player Credits totalling £400,000 – to allow replacement players to cover for long term injuries;
•• Two Excluded Players – their entire salary is excluded from the salary cap

So we are talking £5.6 million + 2 top players and some top ups for International/Injury cover.

By comparison Ulster salary budget for the last two years was of the order of £6.8 million, inclusive of Central contracts.
However for the coming year all top players have taken a significant pay cut, the squads overseas players has dropped from 4 to 2, and that includes
Coetzee who has been replaced by Nakarawa who will be on half of Coetzee salary. In total I doubt the Ulster total is over £6 million.

Part of the issue is squad size - Ulster squad next year is 41 senior players.
By way of comparison Cardiff have 50 listed on their website for this season, Northampton Saints have 58.
I have not cherry picked those teams I have picked them because I have good friends who support those teams.





Thanks for that.  It does show that Ulster really a a well run ship.  I wish the IRFU would make Munster sort their stuff out but seem to afraid too.  It is become death by 1000s cuts rather than take the pain for two years and move on.

I don't think Lord realises how much the Irish teams (Not just Leinster) produce from their accedemies which is what makes the Irish squads stronger and why the teams are more consistent through the year.

Brendan

Posts : 3900
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by geoff999rugby Mon 24 May 2021, 12:26 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

Secondly, Connacht would probably at the same level as Dragons, Munster would probably be the same as the other Welsh regions, Leinster and Ulster would probably see the worst of it, as they attract crowds big enough to sustain a bigger budget.

By way of correction the Ulster salary bill is below Munsters and below the English Premiership cap

Which makes it a bigger mockery. How have Munster got a bigger salary then Ulster, when Ulster get Crowds of 15-18000 per game, and Munster get circa 10,000 per game ?

Local businessmen investment.
Ulster do not have, and never have had private investment

Nobody has said they have. Headscratch

I am of the opinion that Ulster are getting a raw deal by the IRFU if we are comparing them with Munster. OK

I never said you did Headscratch

I was merely answering your question of why Munster have a bigger salary bill than Ulster OK

geoff999rugby

Posts : 4659
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by Brendan Mon 24 May 2021, 12:32 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Brendan wrote: One 'myth' he busted was that it is advantageous to employ many Wales stars at your region. The Welsh Rugby Union pays 80% of the wages of 38 'elite' players in Wales with their regions picking up the remaining 20%.
[/b]

Scarlets have 15 of the 38 players (I assume Ospreys have simillar).  That is one massive chunk of money the WRU are given the Scarlets.  Would that be covered under the wage cap or would that be outside the new wage cap being requested

It would have to be, otherwise Leinster would be, now,  under any salary cap with their 10 or so Central Contracts.

And that is where things get overlooked by some regarding Wales.  Yes they have private owners but the WRU are pumping in loads of money.

WRU take in more than the IRFU, aren't funding 4 full teams (which are paying less than the 4 irish) due to 3 private owners.  Have an equal share in the competition yet it is the IRFU's fault they dontv have stronger teams.

Brendan

Posts : 3900
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by LordDowlais Mon 24 May 2021, 12:56 pm

Brendan wrote:WRU take in more than the IRFU, aren't funding 4 full teams (which are paying less than the 4 irish) due to 3 private owners. Have an equal share in the competition yet it is the IRFU's fault they dontv have stronger teams.

Where has anybody said that anything is the fault of the IRFU ?

The self entitlement on some people on here is beyond reprieve. Rolling Eyes

LordDowlais

Posts : 15001
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by geoff999rugby Mon 24 May 2021, 1:14 pm

What needs to be realised is the issue here is not the Irish running the league, they don't.
The issue is not the Irish having an unfair advantage they don't
The issue here is the WRU have woefully mismanaged club rugby in Wales since the commencement of the Professional era.

They got greedy in negotiations with the English when the league got set up with the consequence the English went ahead without them. If they had taken what was on offer they would have what Welsh fans wanted and in truth both Irish and Scottish rugby would be poor cousins by comparison.

The reality is the WRU spectacularly shot themselves in the foot and have compounded that by messing the Regions around in
appalling way.
Welsh fans have ever right to be angry, if I was Welsh Id be absolutely livid.
But lets be clear the source of that angry should be squarely towards the WRU, not the Machivellian Irish, which is sometimes portrayed here.

geoff999rugby

Posts : 4659
Join date : 2012-01-19

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by Old Man Mon 24 May 2021, 1:26 pm

To be honest I don’t get why some are upset that the Irish teams have more money and better academies?

It is up to each Union to provide their teams with the best structures to develop talent and fund them.

Yes, the complaint will be that the system doesn’t bring equality, but each Union involved made the decision to be part of the Pro14/16

Look at SA, there is little chance for them to compete financially with most European teams, but that doesn’t stop them from entering the comp. The Cheetahs had a much smaller budget than these teams, yet they carried themselves with honour.

Old Man

Posts : 2088
Join date : 2019-08-27

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by LordDowlais Mon 24 May 2021, 1:31 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:What needs to be realised is the issue here is not the Irish running the league, they don't.
The issue is not the Irish having an unfair advantage they don't
The issue here is the WRU have woefully mismanaged club rugby in Wales since the commencement of the Professional era.

They got greedy in negotiations with the English when the league got set up with the consequence the English went ahead without them. If they had taken what was on offer they would have what Welsh fans wanted and in truth both Irish and Scottish rugby would be poor cousins by comparison.

The reality is the WRU spectacularly shot themselves in the foot and have compounded that by messing the Regions around in
appalling way.
Welsh fans have ever right to be angry, if I was Welsh Id be absolutely livid.
But lets be clear the source of that angry should be squarely towards the WRU, not the Machivellian Irish, which is sometimes portrayed here.

Again, what is this rant about ?

I wish the Irish members on here would not take this victim mentality all the time.

We are allowed to point flaws out within the Pro14 without all this nonsense. OK

LordDowlais

Posts : 15001
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 1:35 pm

Brendan wrote:The debate about salary cap has overlooked a few thing.

If it is done like the financial fair play in soccer to punish Munster (debt v losses) and Connacht you would hurt Edinburgh, Zebre, Benetton and possibly Dragons more.

If it is done like the English Premership to punish Leinster two things will happen.  Connacht will be much stronger as very Irish team would be paid to the cap.  Young Irish players would be distributed more evenly among the 4 accedemies. Meaning massive academy credits.  Each Irish team would also have a massive Irish and non Irish player at each team.  You would end up with Ireland having stronger squads and teams no weaker.

Cap talks also overlook the financial input that the WRU are given to certain players in Wales.  As mention before if the WRU didn't do the 80% of certain Scarlets players they would not be able to afford their current squad (nor would Ospreys) as explained by the Scarlets CEO himself when complaining of the support given to the Regions.  If the Unions were allowed to follow the WRU club wage payments model then it would not change payments to Irish teams from the IRFU

I don't know what model would result in Irish teams who bring the majority of players through the Irish system would not be more compeditive or adapt quickly to be stronger.

a) The WRU don't pay salaries in Wales.
b) How do you know a FFP set up would "punish" those clubs when only one of them produces any accounts?
c) The English salary cap "Academy credits" is limited to £600,000 a year
d) The IRFU employs and pays every Irish player, so what are you on about?
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 1:36 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Firstly, nobody is looking to punish anyone. So we can stop with that. OK

Secondly, Connacht would probably at the same level as Dragons, Munster would probably be the same as the other Welsh regions, Leinster and Ulster would probably see the worst of it, as they attract crowds big enough to sustain a bigger budget.

I was not aware that the WRU paid for 80% of the Scarlets players, I also cannot find it on the WWW. As far as I was aware, the WRU pay towards players wages so that they can access them for team Wales, then it is only about 60/40 split, for certain players.

The 60/40 was for NDCs that ended long ago. Keep up.
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 1:37 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

Secondly, Connacht would probably at the same level as Dragons, Munster would probably be the same as the other Welsh regions, Leinster and Ulster would probably see the worst of it, as they attract crowds big enough to sustain a bigger budget.

By way of correction the Ulster salary bill is below Munsters and below the English Premiership cap

No, it's not. That's the part of the salary that is recharged from Ulster.
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 1:37 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

Secondly, Connacht would probably at the same level as Dragons, Munster would probably be the same as the other Welsh regions, Leinster and Ulster would probably see the worst of it, as they attract crowds big enough to sustain a bigger budget.

By way of correction the Ulster salary bill is below Munsters and below the English Premiership cap

Which makes it a bigger mockery. How have Munster got a bigger salary then Ulster, when Ulster get Crowds of 15-18000 per game, and Munster get circa 10,000 per game ?

It's not true.
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by LordDowlais Mon 24 May 2021, 1:38 pm

Old Man wrote:To be honest I don’t get why some are upset that the Irish teams have more money and better academies?

I certainly am not upset. Good for the provinces I say.

Old Man wrote:It is up to each Union to provide their teams with the best structures to develop talent and fund them.

Not in Wales, each team is an independent business, who's owners need to finance such things.

Old Man wrote:Yes, the complaint will be that the system doesn’t bring equality, but each Union involved made the decision to be part of the Pro14/16

You will never have equality whilst you have private ownership trying to compete with a union who has almost an endless pot of cash to supply their teams with.

This is not a complaint by the way. OK

Old Man wrote:Look at SA, there is little chance for them to compete financially with most European teams, but that doesn’t stop them from entering the comp. The Cheetahs had a much smaller budget than these teams, yet they carried themselves with honour.

It gets boring after a while.

LordDowlais

Posts : 15001
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 1:39 pm

Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Firstly, nobody is looking to punish anyone. So we can stop with that. OK

Secondly, Connacht would probably at the same level as Dragons, Munster would probably be the same as the other Welsh regions, Leinster and Ulster would probably see the worst of it, as they attract crowds big enough to sustain a bigger budget.

I was not aware that the WRU paid for 80% of the Scarlets players, I also cannot find it on the WWW. As far as I was aware, the WRU pay towards players wages so that they can access them for team Wales, then it is only about 60/40 split, for certain players.

Never said they pay 80% of their wage bill I said 80% of certain players

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/scarlets-chairman-reveals-exhausted-confused-20344503.amp

Muderack then went on to discuss the financial issues facing Welsh rugby's professional teams.

One 'myth' he busted was that it is advantageous to employ many Wales stars at your region. The Welsh Rugby Union pays 80% of the wages of 38 'elite' players in Wales with their regions picking up the remaining 20%.


Scarlets have 15 of the 38 players (I assume Ospreys have simillar).  That is one massive chunk of money the WRU are given the Scarlets.  Would that be covered under the wage cap or would that be outside the new wage cap being requested

That's misreported. Part of the payment for services from the WRU must be used for the wages of the Top 38 players, as listed by Pivac.

The players are employed by their clubs, all apart from AWJ and Dragons players (at this stage).
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 1:41 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
By comparison Ulster salary budget for the last two years was of the order of £6.8 million, inclusive of Central contracts.

Part of the issue is squad size - Ulster squad next year is 41 senior players.
By way of comparison Cardiff have 50 listed on their website for this season, Northampton Saints have 58.
I have not cherry picked those teams I have picked them because I have good friends who support those teams.

Where's the evidence for this £6.8m?

Cardiff have academy players listed in that 50, Geoff. They have used 54 players this season https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/analysis/players/4779.php?clubID=1&seasonID=26
Ulster have used 50 players so far this season: https://www.cardiffrfcfans.com/analysis/players/4779.php?clubID=31&seasonID=26
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 1:42 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I thought that was just to help through the pandemic, I am sure somebody like Phil will come on here and put us all right though. Laugh

I got here eventually to wade through the nonsense.
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 1:42 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

Secondly, Connacht would probably at the same level as Dragons, Munster would probably be the same as the other Welsh regions, Leinster and Ulster would probably see the worst of it, as they attract crowds big enough to sustain a bigger budget.

By way of correction the Ulster salary bill is below Munsters and below the English Premiership cap

Which makes it a bigger mockery. How have Munster got a bigger salary then Ulster, when Ulster get Crowds of 15-18000 per game, and Munster get circa 10,000 per game ?

Local businessmen investment.
Ulster do not have, and never have had private investment

They just got £18m+ from the UK tax payer, instead.
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 1:43 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Brendan wrote: One 'myth' he busted was that it is advantageous to employ many Wales stars at your region. The Welsh Rugby Union pays 80% of the wages of 38 'elite' players in Wales with their regions picking up the remaining 20%.
[/b]

Scarlets have 15 of the 38 players (I assume Ospreys have simillar).  That is one massive chunk of money the WRU are given the Scarlets.  Would that be covered under the wage cap or would that be outside the new wage cap being requested

It would have to be, otherwise Leinster would be, now,  under any salary cap with their 10 or so Central Contracts.

All player contracts are paid centrally
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 1:46 pm

Brendan wrote:

And that is where things get overlooked by some regarding Wales.  Yes they have private owners but the WRU are pumping in loads of money.

WRU take in more than the IRFU, aren't funding 4 full teams (which are paying less than the 4 irish) due to 3 private owners.  Have an equal share in the competition yet it is the IRFU's fault they dontv have stronger teams.

Nobody has ever claimed it is the fault of the IRFU that the WRU is so abysmally run.

And you've ignored, in your shallow analysis, the far bigger cost base the WRU has thanks to the stadium deal the IRFU pulled off when screwing over the soccer association.
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 1:48 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:What needs to be realised is the issue here is not the Irish running the league, they don't.
The issue is not the Irish having an unfair advantage they don't
The issue here is the WRU have woefully mismanaged club rugby in Wales since the commencement of the Professional era.

They got greedy in negotiations with the English when the league got set up with the consequence the English went ahead without them. If they had taken what was on offer they would have what Welsh fans wanted and in truth both Irish and Scottish rugby would be poor cousins by comparison.

The reality is the WRU spectacularly shot themselves in the foot and have compounded that by messing the Regions around in
appalling way.
Welsh fans have ever right to be angry, if I was Welsh Id be absolutely livid.
But lets be clear the source of that angry should be squarely towards the WRU, not the Machivellian Irish, which is sometimes portrayed here.

The league is factually run from Dublin.

You're spot on about the incompetence of the WRU and their horrific decision making 20 or so years ago.

And I don't know anybody whose ire isn't aimed solely at the WRU, sorry
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 1:49 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

Again, what is this rant about ?

I wish the Irish members on here would not take this victim mentality all the time.

We are allowed to point flaws out within the Pro14 without all this nonsense. OK

100% spot on
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by profitius Mon 24 May 2021, 2:22 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:

And that is where things get overlooked by some regarding Wales.  Yes they have private owners but the WRU are pumping in loads of money.

WRU take in more than the IRFU, aren't funding 4 full teams (which are paying less than the 4 irish) due to 3 private owners.  Have an equal share in the competition yet it is the IRFU's fault they dontv have stronger teams.

Nobody has ever claimed it is the fault of the IRFU that the WRU is so abysmally run.

And you've ignored, in your shallow analysis, the far bigger cost base the WRU has thanks to the stadium deal the IRFU pulled off when screwing over the soccer association.

The FAI (the Irish soccer association) were offered a fair deal. It's not the IRFU's fault they can't do maths.
profitius
profitius

Posts : 4568
Join date : 2012-01-25

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 2:25 pm

profitius wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:

And that is where things get overlooked by some regarding Wales.  Yes they have private owners but the WRU are pumping in loads of money.

WRU take in more than the IRFU, aren't funding 4 full teams (which are paying less than the 4 irish) due to 3 private owners.  Have an equal share in the competition yet it is the IRFU's fault they dontv have stronger teams.

Nobody has ever claimed it is the fault of the IRFU that the WRU is so abysmally run.

And you've ignored, in your shallow analysis, the far bigger cost base the WRU has thanks to the stadium deal the IRFU pulled off when screwing over the soccer association.

The FAI (the Irish soccer association) were offered a fair deal. It's not the IRFU's fault they can't do maths.  

That seems a tad contradictory, but ultimately irrelevant to the point that the cost base of the WRU (whilst bloated) is a good £7m a year different from the IRFU because of stadium costs.
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by Brendan Mon 24 May 2021, 2:38 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Firstly, nobody is looking to punish anyone. So we can stop with that. OK

Secondly, Connacht would probably at the same level as Dragons, Munster would probably be the same as the other Welsh regions, Leinster and Ulster would probably see the worst of it, as they attract crowds big enough to sustain a bigger budget.

I was not aware that the WRU paid for 80% of the Scarlets players, I also cannot find it on the WWW. As far as I was aware, the WRU pay towards players wages so that they can access them for team Wales, then it is only about 60/40 split, for certain players.

Never said they pay 80% of their wage bill I said 80% of certain players

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/scarlets-chairman-reveals-exhausted-confused-20344503.amp

Muderack then went on to discuss the financial issues facing Welsh rugby's professional teams.

One 'myth' he busted was that it is advantageous to employ many Wales stars at your region. The Welsh Rugby Union pays 80% of the wages of 38 'elite' players in Wales with their regions picking up the remaining 20%.


Scarlets have 15 of the 38 players (I assume Ospreys have simillar).  That is one massive chunk of money the WRU are given the Scarlets.  Would that be covered under the wage cap or would that be outside the new wage cap being requested

That's misreported. Part of the payment for services from the WRU must be used for the wages of the Top 38 players, as listed by Pivac.

The players are employed by their clubs, all apart from AWJ and Dragons players (at this stage).

So the top guy at the Scarlets doesnt know what they are getting for the elite players and is wrong When he said the WRU pay 80% of the 38 players waes and the club picks up the remaining 20%.

Can you show us why you think his facts are wrong.  This is why people see the giving out about the Irish as sour grapes by sum when they don't even accept their own Regions answers.

Brendan

Posts : 3900
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by Brendan Mon 24 May 2021, 2:45 pm

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:What needs to be realised is the issue here is not the Irish running the league, they don't.
The issue is not the Irish having an unfair advantage they don't
The issue here is the WRU have woefully mismanaged club rugby in Wales since the commencement of the Professional era.

They got greedy in negotiations with the English when the league got set up with the consequence the English went ahead without them. If they had taken what was on offer they would have what Welsh fans wanted and in truth both Irish and Scottish rugby would be poor cousins by comparison.

The reality is the WRU spectacularly shot themselves in the foot and have compounded that by messing the Regions around in
appalling way.
Welsh fans have ever right to be angry, if I was Welsh Id be absolutely livid.
But lets be clear the source of that angry should be squarely towards the WRU, not the Machivellian Irish, which is sometimes portrayed here.

The league is factually run from Dublin.

You're spot on about the incompetence of the WRU and their horrific decision making 20 or so years ago.

And I don't know anybody whose ire isn't aimed solely at the WRU, sorry

So the league is Irish favoured because it's the WRU's fault.

Good to know. Just don't tell the Scots

Brendan

Posts : 3900
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 2:52 pm

Brendan wrote:

So the top guy at the Scarlets doesnt know what they are getting for the elite players and is wrong When he said the WRU pay 80% of the 38 players waes and the club picks up the remaining 20%.

Can you show us why you think his facts are wrong.  This is why people see the giving out about the Irish as sour grapes by sum when they don't even accept their own Regions answers.

It was just reported badly.

If the WRU pays those wages, they'd need to be recorded in the WRU Annual Report. They are not. The clubs have confirmed to their supporters that they are the employers of the players. If the WRU did pay those wages, there'd not be the finance crisis there presently is in Welsh rugby by the WRU paying only £3m of their contracted £26m this season.

Your final sentence is pure ignorance, based by your own misreading of a badly written Matthew Southcombe article.

And, here, if you want to learn a little more is a nice killer sentence for you: "On player cuts it’s not really for me to comment on because the players are not my employees" (https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/steve-phillips-qa-wales-making-20256614)

Just to confirm this for the final time: part of the payment for services from the WRU must be used to pay 80% of the wages of the 38 players named each season by Pivac. The WRU doesn't pay the wage. There are no additional payments to cover this sum. It is just that the agreed payment figure must include that stipulation.

Again, just so that you're finally and really sure on this, the WRU has paid only £3m this season to its supply chain yet the players (who are paid by their clubs, remember) have all been paid.

So, now you have the facts, doesn't that final sentence of yours look out of place?
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 2:52 pm

Brendan wrote:

So the league is Irish favoured because it's the WRU's fault.

Good to know.  Just don't tell the Scots

There are some very odd and chippy interpretations of basic English by some posters on this board.

Really weird behaviour.
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by LordDowlais Mon 24 May 2021, 3:18 pm

Brendan wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:What needs to be realised is the issue here is not the Irish running the league, they don't.
The issue is not the Irish having an unfair advantage they don't
The issue here is the WRU have woefully mismanaged club rugby in Wales since the commencement of the Professional era.

They got greedy in negotiations with the English when the league got set up with the consequence the English went ahead without them. If they had taken what was on offer they would have what Welsh fans wanted and in truth both Irish and Scottish rugby would be poor cousins by comparison.

The reality is the WRU spectacularly shot themselves in the foot and have compounded that by messing the Regions around in
appalling way.
Welsh fans have ever right to be angry, if I was Welsh Id be absolutely livid.
But lets be clear the source of that angry should be squarely towards the WRU, not the Machivellian Irish, which is sometimes portrayed here.

The league is factually run from Dublin.

You're spot on about the incompetence of the WRU and their horrific decision making 20 or so years ago.

And I don't know anybody whose ire isn't aimed solely at the WRU, sorry

So the league is Irish favoured because it's the WRU's fault.

Good to know.  Just don't tell the Scots

Rather than behave like this, why can't you just debate the points raised.

It seems as though you want to manufacture some sort of Welsh blaming the Irish scenario where it could not be further from the truth. The Irish system works for the Irish, nice, good for you. OK

What does not work, is trying to force it with a differently run organisation, you are trying to mix oil and water.

But never mind, when you cannot debate, you can always revert to type. Rolling Eyes

LordDowlais

Posts : 15001
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 24 May 2021, 3:37 pm

When you start off a debate tat the Irish are too good as their teams are better financed and then propose a wage cap to allow the Welsh to compete you're obviously going to get people who disagree and think the Welsh should just use their finances better. if you want a truly competitive league through a wage cap talk about the bottom clubs finances and work from there. you're likely to lose more Welsh players to the English and French though which could make you see the point re Irish teams a little more clearly?

Or accept that in sport even with better finances there are cycles of teams. Or get yourself more private investment.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23820
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by LordDowlais Mon 24 May 2021, 3:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:When you start off a debate tat the Irish are too good as their teams are better financed and then propose a wage cap to allow the Welsh to compete you're obviously going to get people who disagree and think the Welsh should just use their finances better. if you want a truly competitive league through a wage cap talk about the bottom clubs finances and work from there. you're likely to lose more Welsh players to the English and French though which could make you see the point re Irish teams a little more clearly?

Or accept that in sport even with better finances there are cycles of teams. Or get yourself more private investment.


Yes, agree.

But it's not the bad old Irish are doing this that and the other to us poor little Welshies. OK

LordDowlais

Posts : 15001
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 24 May 2021, 3:45 pm

You did talk about some Welsh wanting a fairer chance than playing a 'corporation' with an endless pot of money then talk of Irish finals (location) and Irish sponsors though. Scene setting can define how a discussion is going to go.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23820
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by LordDowlais Mon 24 May 2021, 3:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You did talk about some Welsh wanting a fairer chance than playing a 'corporation' with an endless pot of money then talk of Irish finals (location) and Irish sponsors though. Scene setting can define how a discussion is going to go.

But they were facts.

1. 10 out of 12 finals in Ireland.
2. Irish broadcasters.
3. Irish sponsors.
4. The IRFU do have more money than the private backers.

These are nothing that has been made up.

LordDowlais

Posts : 15001
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 3:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:When you start off a debate tat the Irish are too good as their teams are better financed and then propose a wage cap to allow the Welsh to compete you're obviously going to get people who disagree and think the Welsh should just use their finances better. if you want a truly competitive league through a wage cap talk about the bottom clubs finances and work from there. you're likely to lose more Welsh players to the English and French though which could make you see the point re Irish teams a little more clearly?

Or accept that in sport even with better finances there are cycles of teams. Or get yourself more private investment.

The wage cap is to make the league more competitive, which is what the Irish pundits bemoaning the PrO'14 want it to become in the light of Leinster not succeeding in Europe. It's not about "the Welsh".

How have you arrived at the conclusion that "you're likely to lose more Welsh players to the English and French"?

The structure of Welsh rugby prevents private investment, of course, of any serious kind. But nice try at a dig.
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 3:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You did talk about some Welsh wanting a fairer chance than playing a 'corporation' with an endless pot of money then talk of Irish finals (location) and Irish sponsors though. Scene setting can define how a discussion is going to go.

That context is about single ownership of multiple entrants and the skewing of competition because of that.
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 24 May 2021, 4:00 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You did talk about some Welsh wanting a fairer chance than playing a 'corporation' with an endless pot of money then talk of Irish finals (location) and Irish sponsors though. Scene setting can define how a discussion is going to go.

But they were facts.

1. 10 out of 12 finals in Ireland.
2. Irish broadcasters.
3. Irish sponsors.
4. The IRFU do have more money than the private backers.

These are nothing that has been made up.

Wasn't my point. You set your stall out with the first posts and potentially painted it as as an Irish vs Welsh issue and proposed a solution of a wage cap to allow the Welsh to better compete. I'm saying that the falvour of the plucky Welsh vs the corporation could lead to the old 'bad old Irish are doing this that and the other to us poor little Welshies' which you've tried to avoid.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23820
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 24 May 2021, 4:07 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:When you start off a debate tat the Irish are too good as their teams are better financed and then propose a wage cap to allow the Welsh to compete you're obviously going to get people who disagree and think the Welsh should just use their finances better. if you want a truly competitive league through a wage cap talk about the bottom clubs finances and work from there. you're likely to lose more Welsh players to the English and French though which could make you see the point re Irish teams a little more clearly?

Or accept that in sport even with better finances there are cycles of teams. Or get yourself more private investment.

The wage cap is to make the league more competitive, which is what the Irish pundits bemoaning the PrO'14 want it to become in the light of Leinster not succeeding in Europe. It's not about "the Welsh".

How have you arrived at the conclusion that "you're likely to lose more Welsh players to the English and French"?

The structure of Welsh rugby prevents private investment, of course, of any serious kind. But nice try at a dig.

Well one of LDs points was to paint the Welsh view, reasonably as he's Welsh, hence the reply there. I arrived at the point of losing players to the Welsh and English as if you set the cap to the lowest denominator clubs will come calling for the better players and be able to tempt them with better wages.

And the prviate investment isn't a dig whatsoever. Always in favour of owners improving things within the rules. I used to be an avid Boro fan when I was more into football and so I've seen the benefit of a rich owner (comparatively in the 90s).

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23820
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 24 May 2021, 4:08 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You did talk about some Welsh wanting a fairer chance than playing a 'corporation' with an endless pot of money then talk of Irish finals (location) and Irish sponsors though. Scene setting can define how a discussion is going to go.

That context is about single ownership of multiple entrants and the skewing of competition because of that.

Well that and the deeper pockets it affords Leinster et al.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23820
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 4:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Well one of LDs points was to paint the Welsh view, reasonably as he's Welsh, hence the reply there. I arrived at the point of losing players to the Welsh and English as if you set the cap to the lowest denominator clubs will come calling for the better players and be able to tempt them with better wages.

And the prviate investment isn't a dig whatsoever. Always in favour of owners improving things within the rules. I used to be an avid Boro fan when I was more into football and so I've seen the benefit of a rich owner (comparatively in the 90s).

Good to know the quote button is finally working.

You do love a straw man, don't you? If you do Z, then catastrophic consequences will happen! (Even though nobody has ever suggested doing Z).

As noted, private investment in Welsh rugby is, by WRU design, now very difficult to pull off.
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 4:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You did talk about some Welsh wanting a fairer chance than playing a 'corporation' with an endless pot of money then talk of Irish finals (location) and Irish sponsors though. Scene setting can define how a discussion is going to go.

That context is about single ownership of multiple entrants and the skewing of competition because of that.

Well that and the deeper pockets it affords Leinster et al.

We don't know if it prevents Leinster pockets from being even deeper. That's the point. It seems to be the point most people miss, however.
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 24 May 2021, 4:19 pm

Yeah the quote function works Phil. Its a forum so it's to and fro. I don't think it's much of a leap to suggest that if you force a team to lower their overall wage bill you risk other teams being able to tempt them. See Vunipola at Wasps being tempted by Saracens. May not happen, but certainly not a leap.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23820
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 24 May 2021, 4:20 pm

Leinster seem ok with it so there we go. And to bring a salary cap in to allow teams to compete with the likes of Leinster would make it pointless for Leinster to even attempt to get more money for the actual 1st team and associated trimmings anyway.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23820
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 4:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Leinster seem ok with it so there we go. And to bring a salary cap in to allow teams to compete with the likes of Leinster would make it pointless for Leinster to even attempt to get more money for the actual 1st team and associated trimmings anyway.

Sorry, I'm not following. Leinster doesn't exist outside of the IRFU so how have you arrived at any of those conclusions?
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by PhilBB Mon 24 May 2021, 4:25 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah the quote function works Phil. Its a forum so it's to and fro. I don't think it's much of a leap to suggest that if you force a team to lower their overall wage bill you risk other teams being able to tempt them. See Vunipola at Wasps being tempted by Saracens. May not happen, but certainly not a leap.

The leap was to the "lowest common denominator" nonsense.

Please continue to use the Quote function as it makes it much clearer as to what you're responding to.
PhilBB
PhilBB

Posts : 5595
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 24 May 2021, 4:37 pm

I understood your point Phil was to say that there isn't a case that private ownership for Leinster would not necessarily mean less money for them. I then put that next to a wage cap meaning they'd get nothing from it if that were the case anyway. Coming back to if it works for Leinster they're not likely to want the change.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23820
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 24 May 2021, 4:38 pm

For a truly competitive league you'd want as many people to be limited by the cap as possible so not that much of a leap. You could bring a cap in and set it at 50 million a year. Bit pointless though.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 23820
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by Old Man Mon 24 May 2021, 5:27 pm

I cannot see any scenario where a cap would be practical in the Pro 14/16.

Each Union lives on meagre means as is, unless you bring in a salary cap that is low enough for every Union’s teams to achieve, and then those with higher means have no incentive to drop to such a low cap.

Old Man

Posts : 2088
Join date : 2019-08-27

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by Brendan Mon 24 May 2021, 7:29 pm

Old Man wrote:I cannot see any scenario where a cap would be practical in the Pro 14/16.

Each Union lives on meagre means as is, unless you bring in a salary cap that is low enough for every Union’s teams to achieve, and then those with higher means have no incentive to drop to such a low cap.

I agree. SA teams can assemble a better squad for 3m due to cost of living then a European team could with 5m.

Only Benetton and the Scottish teams can increase budgets currently. Maybe Ospreys too with their new owners


Brendan

Posts : 3900
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by Old Man Mon 24 May 2021, 8:37 pm

Brendan wrote:
Old Man wrote:I cannot see any scenario where a cap would be practical in the Pro 14/16.

Each Union lives on meagre means as is, unless you bring in a salary cap that is low enough for every Union’s teams to achieve, and then those with higher means have no incentive to drop to such a low cap.

I agree.  SA teams can assemble a better squad for 3m due to cost of living then a European team could with 5m.

Only Benetton and the Scottish teams can increase budgets currently.  Maybe Ospreys too with their new owners


You can ignore cost of living, a survey has brought the fact that 90% of SA players will go overseas if they get a contract, thus we have become a feeder system for every club, country, outhouse, henhouse and Franchise. Our Franchises are only a stop over for our best players.

Old Man

Posts : 2088
Join date : 2019-08-27

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by mikey_dragon Mon 24 May 2021, 10:18 pm

There’s still a host of good players in the SA teams, quite impressive really. Jacques du Plessis featured for Montpellier on the weekend, so I imagine he’s heading back to SA now. I think it was on here someone asked if he was featuring for the Bulls. Will there be any more domestic rugby in SA before the Lions tour?

I believe Goosen is coming back too? Whilst van Staden is departing. He would have been a decent open-side / fetcher for SA.

mikey_dragon

Posts : 12674
Join date : 2015-07-25

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by Old Man Mon 24 May 2021, 10:30 pm

Yes, both signed for the Bulls, there are two more rounds for rainbow cup, and apparently a final against the top European pro14 team.

That is it basically.


Old Man

Posts : 2088
Join date : 2019-08-27

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by Old Man Mon 24 May 2021, 10:32 pm

There is of course the Lions matches for each of the Franchises as well, plus I think a South African invitation team

Old Man

Posts : 2088
Join date : 2019-08-27

Back to top Go down

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 12 Empty Re: Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 12 of 15 Previous  1 ... 7 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum