LIONS ANNOUNCEMENT

First topic message reminder :

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

RiscaGame wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it's not really an answer with any detail. My 2 starting locks would be Itoje and Ryan injury permitting. Both potential captain to an extent. Not sure there would be any choices jumping out to me from the front row. I'd currently be thinking Curry, Ritchie, Faletau/Vunipola in the back row, Ritchie or Curry would be an interesting choice. Farrell probably starts at fly half for me so he obviously comes into to. All things considered I'd go Curry, watching him train and in matches he's also coaching players through and he'd be in the thick of it most of the time.

So you would pick players who have either never been a captain, or an international captain, or get on the wrong side of the ref whilst being a captain, over a player whose stats surpassed every other player in the same position in the 6N, and is a 6N winning captain, with years of experience at being a captain, who was the last Lions captain, and has achieved a hell of a lot more at international level than any other captain from GB and Ireland ?

OK, fair enough.

Thank God you are not in charge.

I don't see the need to weaken the team by picking a captain before hand. Especially one who when he had the chance to shine and lead from the front against France, he visibly shrank, allowed his teams mates to play loosely and lose discipline. and also give away the pen leading to France's winner by flopping off his feet. That last point I think had more to do with exhaustion as much as anything, another point that I want my captain to remain on the pitch and not be too knackered to make good decisiosns.

I am sure Cory Hill gave that penalty away.

I think AWJ will be Tour Captain, much like Warburton was last tour. It doesn't mean he will start or feature in the Tests, but that is what I think Gatland will do. It was also noteworthy how Gatland used AWJ last tour, in the Tests.

You're right. Jones was behind watching the carry. Don't mind at all if Jones goes and simply acts as that older head around the squad. Always good to have someone like that around, albeit it's normally the team manager (?) role.

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm not bothered about people disagreeing with me whatsoever Oracle, its a discussion forum. There are some here who do want to be able to say anything and expect people to remain quiet if they don't agree, i'm not one of them.

You don’t want AWJ as captain, and that’s your right and freedom to express that opinion.  I’m not going to argue with you because it is an opinion and you are not mentioning or stating facts, so there is nothing to argue over.  My question is whether you will accept the opinion of the Lions selectors, experienced coaches in their own right, if they decide amongst themselves to choose AWJ as captain?  After all I’m guessing they are far more knowledgeable and experienced in elite rugby than you are (complete guess!).  So if it was to happen do you accept their decision, or do you moan about it all tour?  Genuine question.

Not only will they moan about it all tour, they'll moan about it for years to come. It's been going on since 2013, 2017... Read other forums and social media, and there's the usual nationality already bemoaning the fact that some English might miss out with possibly more Scots being picked. They've already started on AWJ too. This forum was like a nuthouse in 2017, hopefully we don't get a repeat of that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it's not really an answer with any detail. My 2 starting locks would be Itoje and Ryan injury permitting. Both potential captain to an extent. Not sure there would be any choices jumping out to me from the front row. I'd currently be thinking Curry, Ritchie, Faletau/Vunipola in the back row, Ritchie or Curry would be an interesting choice. Farrell probably starts at fly half for me so he obviously comes into to. All things considered I'd go Curry, watching him train and in matches he's also coaching players through and he'd be in the thick of it most of the time.

Well based on current form, and one of them is injured, that's a naf selection. I and I'm sure many others had those two starting, but over a year ago. Beirne is in the equation now, like well in there. I might have selected Itoje as captain but the 6N gave me doubts. Not sure if playing in the championship will do the Sarries contingent any favours either, but it's hard to not see them in the touring party at least.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You have already quoted me in the response. 'Because it's not really an answer with any detail. My 2 starting locks would be Itoje and Ryan injury permitting. Both potential captain to an extent.

But not captains.

No 7&1/2 wrote: I'd currently be thinking Curry, Ritchie, Faletau/Vunipola in the back row,Ritchie or Curry would be an interesting choice.

Again, not captains.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell probably starts at fly half for me so he obviously comes into to.

A captain who cannot get on with the officials, and gets riled up too often.

So you would go with all those potential captains and a captain who is not very good at being one, and is not a guaranteed starter, over a seasoned international captain who was statistically head and shoulders above all other locks in the 6N, who has captained the Lions in the past, and has won multiple 6N as a captian.

Fair play to you.

I've named the guys I'd pick for my team albeit lots of things can change as there are a number of games to go, given you a shortlist of people and then who I would go for an overall choice. I don't rate Jones highly enough to get in my starting team and wouldn't weaken it to simply include him as captain, I'd primarily worry about the scrum with him there, thinking how much stick Vickery got on that SA tour without Shaw behind him and his lasting power with effectiveness for 80 mins. But glad you've re read and realised I did answer you.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it's not really an answer with any detail. My 2 starting locks would be Itoje and Ryan injury permitting. Both potential captain to an extent. Not sure there would be any choices jumping out to me from the front row. I'd currently be thinking Curry, Ritchie, Faletau/Vunipola in the back row, Ritchie or Curry would be an interesting choice. Farrell probably starts at fly half for me so he obviously comes into to. All things considered I'd go Curry, watching him train and in matches he's also coaching players through and he'd be in the thick of it most of the time.

Well based on current form, and one of them is injured, that's a naf selection. I and I'm sure many others had those two starting, but over a year ago. Beirne is in the equation now, like well in there. I might have selected Itoje as captain but the 6N gave me doubts. Not sure if playing in the championship will do the Sarries contingent any favours either, but it's hard to not see them in the touring party at least.

Gatland has already dropped quotes in about Saracens players. Sounds as if he's thinking the same as Jones did in the 6Ns (and got stick for). There's a few warm ups at least to judge before the test (unless they've been axed and I haven't seen).

What are peoples hypothetical starters now then? And does anyone think Gatland is going to ignore players from the prem final?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because it's not really an answer with any detail. My 2 starting locks would be Itoje and Ryan injury permitting. Both potential captain to an extent. Not sure there would be any choices jumping out to me from the front row. I'd currently be thinking Curry, Ritchie, Faletau/Vunipola in the back row, Ritchie or Curry would be an interesting choice. Farrell probably starts at fly half for me so he obviously comes into to. All things considered I'd go Curry, watching him train and in matches he's also coaching players through and he'd be in the thick of it most of the time.

Well based on current form, and one of them is injured, that's a naf selection. I and I'm sure many others had those two starting, but over a year ago. Beirne is in the equation now, like well in there. I might have selected Itoje as captain but the 6N gave me doubts. Not sure if playing in the championship will do the Sarries contingent any favours either, but it's hard to not see them in the touring party at least.

Gatland has already dropped quotes in about Saracens players. Sounds as if he's thinking the same as Jones did in the 6Ns (and got stick for). There's a few warm ups at least to judge before the test (unless they've been axed and I haven't seen).

As I said before I'm finding it very hard to predict, but I could always picture him selecting the Sarries boys' who did well in 2017. You're right he does seem to hint at that as well.

If the rumours about Townsend not really being fond of Russell are true he might miss out as well. I would take him of course, but on recent form he shouldn't start against SA. In addition to that, I think we were relying on some Welsh 9's to step up but that hasn't happened, so 9 looks like a bit of a bother now too.

Throwing out a bit of a curveball, but... Hogg for captain? In the form of his life, arguably one of the first names in the starting XV (if not the first), and has done a good job as captain of Scotland, growing into the role nicely. I've seen sillier ideas.

Though I expect it to be AWJ, and wouldn't have a problem with that. A year ago, I would have disagreed, but he was really good in the 6N, and right now makes my starting XV.

Of the other names mentioned, I think Ritchie has some captaincy experience, possibly with Scotland U20s, but would be a huge ask, and he's far from a guaranteed starter anyway, or even a certainty to tour.

What about the likes of Faletau or Henshaw? They would probably be close behind Hogg on my team sheet right now: could we see one of them doing the job?

Id pick Hogg but I think a lot of people would favour Williams at 15 over Hogg so I dont know if he is an automatic pick.

Collapse2005 wrote:Id pick Hogg but I think a lot of people would favour Williams at 15 over Hogg so I dont know if he is an automatic pick.

I would start Hogg all the time. Although I think Williams is better under the high ball and in defence, I think Hoggs ability to counter attack cannot be ignored.

And, given Hogg is currently captain for Scotland, I think he is a likely choice. And I really like how he plays. I think right now he might be the best 15 in our four nations.

Do we know who the referees will be? I haven't seen any announcement. French referees often feature prominently on Lions tours, and we've already seen in our Northern hemisphere competitions how that can make a difference at scrum and breakdown. New Zealand and Australia are usually in the mix too for South Africa.

At the moment, this tour still seems a bit like a fantasy league, as there are still genuine questions over whether it will take place at all.

If it is on, and any player comes from outside the Six Nations, I wouldn't be upset to see Zebo in the squad. It's a daft thing to say, as he hasn't outplayed the leading Home Nations candidates but I have a soft spot for his character and talent. He's the kind of guy who, if chosen, and then played to his potential, would boost morale immensely.

If Gatland doesn't want to select some England players on account of poor form, then I'm good with that. However, I really hope it doesn't come down to "I, taking Jamie George but not LCD, because the Premiership didn't give me access to Exeter players".

Rugby Fan wrote: because the Premiership didn't give me access to Exeter players

Gatland has said that will effect his choices though.

doctor_grey wrote:And, given Hogg is currently captain for Scotland, I think he is a likely choice.  And I really like how he plays.  I think right now he might be the best 15 in our four nations.

I would pick Hogg at 15 in the Test XV personally, but I don't think he's nailed on vs Liam Williams and for that reason I don't think he'll get the nod.

I'd say the easy choice would be Alun Wyn. Bags of experience, on decent form, Gatland knows him well as will McBride and Jenkins. Some may well argue that Itoje/Ryan is the better combo, and question whether Jones will be on for 80 minutes, but I think he's the safe bet.

Itoje would be the other option for me. Can't see him not starting and finishing the game. Against him is the tendency to give away silly penalties, but I wouldn't get too bogged down in that. In the game in question, I didn't think the ref got all of them right.

I'd be quite happy with Hogg as captain. As for him not being a guaranteed Test starter, I'd say there's greater competition for the two starting second row spots.

Yep, I think Hogg's place is pretty secure to be honest.

Collapse2005 wrote:Id pick Hogg but I think a lot of people would favour Williams at 15 over Hogg so I dont know if he is an automatic pick.

I wouldn’t have Liam Williams in the test starting 15 at all. Possibly on the bench. But a tourist at best for me. Unless he can show awesome form during the midweek games then I wouldn’t choose him for the tests.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:And, given Hogg is currently captain for Scotland, I think he is a likely choice.  And I really like how he plays.  I think right now he might be the best 15 in our four nations.

I would pick Hogg at 15 in the Test XV personally, but I don't think he's nailed on vs Liam Williams and for that reason I don't think he'll get the nod.

I'd say the easy choice would be Alun Wyn. Bags of experience, on decent form, Gatland knows him well as will McBride and Jenkins. Some may well argue that Itoje/Ryan is the better combo, and question whether Jones will be on for 80 minutes, but I think he's the safe bet.

Itoje would be the other option for me. Can't see him not starting and finishing the game. Against him is the tendency to give away silly penalties, but I wouldn't get too bogged down in that. In the game in question, I didn't think the ref got all of them right.

Do you mean the Wales game? He ‘only’ gave away 5 pens that game but conceded 12 across the tournament. So against other games, referees and opponents too. Highest penalties conceded out of anyone in the tournament. Just needs to be a bit less obvious!

I can get the money ball approach to stats in a game as simple of repetitive as baseball i do question the use of stats without context. A simple example is a pen goes against a player carrying the ball. He s delayed going to ground his team mates are simply slow getting there he doesn't release because of the risk from a turnover. Is that really a mistake?

No 7&1/2 wrote:I can get the money ball approach to stats in a game as simple of repetitive as baseball i do question the use of stats without context. A simple example is a pen goes against a player carrying the  ball. He s delayed going to ground his team mates are simply slow getting there he doesn't release because of the risk from a turnover. Is that really a mistake?

Yes agreed, which is why we always need for example to take the ‘metres gained’ stats with a pinch of salt.  The other team’s tactics can influence your own team’s stats, e.g. if they kick it to you a lot then your fullback might made stupid amounts of metres gained just running it back.  Suddenly he’s then the starting Lions 15 because his competition for the jersey played a team that doesn’t kick away possession and his stats are see as worse!  Similarly a tactic of kicking all the time means the kicking team might not have great metres gained stats as they don’t run with the ball much.  Over a whole tournament and over multiple measures is therefore much better than just looking at one game and one stat.  The odd penalty here and there is, as you say, understandable and not always the player’s fault.  But 12?!  They can’t all be refereeing errors and ‘being in the wrong place’ penalties!

Just on stats - if we choose not to use them at all because of some of the issues outlined above, then it is impossible to say that one player is ‘better’ than another.  It becomes just ‘feel’ and guesswork.  So remove the stats if you want but then you can’t judge players like Van de Merwe against other wingers, or AWJ against other locks.  There is no way to compare.

I think the biggest criticism I have of Itoje in the tournament is a failure to react to the ref, rather than his approach to the game. Many of the pens looked very borderline to me, but his failure to react and his repetition of the same offence (offside when trying to charge down) is perhaps the bigger worry.

He's still an absolutely cracking player, and one I'd have in my starting pack.

Agreed fES. I think he’s cracking too. Just worry that he’s one of these that is marked by refs now. Hopefully not. Needs to keep his nose clean and just play a bit less on the edge.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think the biggest criticism I have of Itoje in the tournament is a failure to react to the ref, rather than his approach to the game. Many of the pens looked very borderline to me, but his failure to react and his repetition of the same offence (offside when trying to charge down) is perhaps the bigger worry.

He's still an absolutely cracking player, and one I'd have in my starting pack.

That's the thing, it's less that he's doing things differently to previous seasons, and more that he's started to get pinged for it. Players need to adapt to that.

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I can get the money ball approach to stats in a game as simple of repetitive as baseball i do question the use of stats without context. A simple example is a pen goes against a player carrying the  ball. He s delayed going to ground his team mates are simply slow getting there he doesn't release because of the risk from a turnover. Is that really a mistake?

Yes agreed, which is why we always need for example to take the ‘metres gained’ stats with a pinch of salt.  The other team’s tactics can influence your own team’s stats, e.g. if they kick it to you a lot then your fullback might made stupid amounts of metres gained just running it back.  Suddenly he’s then the starting Lions 15 because his competition for the jersey played a team that doesn’t kick away possession and his stats are see as worse!  Similarly a tactic of kicking all the time means the kicking team might not have great metres gained stats as they don’t run with the ball much.  Over a whole tournament and over multiple measures is therefore much better than just looking at one game and one stat.  The odd penalty here and there is, as you say, understandable and not always the player’s fault.  But 12?!  They can’t all be refereeing errors and ‘being in the wrong place’ penalties!

Just on stats - if we choose not to use them at all because of some of the issues outlined above, then it is impossible to say that one player is ‘better’ than another.  It becomes just ‘feel’ and guesswork.  So remove the stats if you want but then you can’t judge players like Van de Merwe against other wingers, or AWJ against other locks.  There is no way to compare.

There was an old discussion on England threads about line-outs and Hartley vs youngs. The stats said they were very evenly matched across multiple games and over years. You can't argue with stats can you...bar anyone who watched both players. Id suggest from memory geordie could answer the question on lies damn lies and stats. You don't have to ignore them you can't use them without knowledge.

Interesting discussion on Itoje, I think Pivac (not one to comment on players usually) and Toonie to a lesser degree insinuated that for a number of seasons, MI had been getting away with murder, they implied the word jackal was not so much that MI was faster, stronger, more savvy but because of his bludgeoning reputation & "superstar" status, he was allowed to get away with liberties. 1st game 6Ns you could see the mystification then shock when Gray did a number on him, suddenly realisation that to compete on the day meant giving pens away, if I recall 3 or 4 pens during the game but tbh he got away with murder and should have been double that, same with Tom Curry. Personally I think it was poor England coaching strategy that world class players like Itoje & Curry under pressure had to give away pens to be on a level playing field, there was no plan B. I think Itoje was lucky to be on 12 not out for the tournament, as many refs would have carded him for consistent infringements.

Stats are only as good as the analysis behind them, England gave away so many penalties partly due to not being coached to appreciate the law changes and partly due to not being able to get away with blue murder thus losing the competitive advantage

On the captain side, there is only one player to consider and IMHO first player to be pencilled in... AWJ, however playing devil's advocate a player who was awesome during the 6Ns was Iain Henderson and he captained Ireland (as well as being the resident Ulster captain).....not sure he will be on the plane though.

I'd select Itoje/AWJ as locks, unless we have to include Beirne who we cannot ignore, then we have a problem.....do we go;
Power/Brawn
4. Itoje
5. AWJ
6. Beirne
7. Curry
8. Faletau
or
Power/Dynamism
4. Beirne
5. AWJ
6. Faletau
7. Watson
8. Curry

or....throw it all in the bin and go
4. Gray
5. Ryan (c)
6. Stander
7. Tipuric
8. Navidi

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think the biggest criticism I have of Itoje in the tournament is a failure to react to the ref, rather than his approach to the game. Many of the pens looked very borderline to me, but his failure to react and his repetition of the same offence (offside when trying to charge down) is perhaps the bigger worry.

He's still an absolutely cracking player, and one I'd have in my starting pack.

He was never offside! Poor officiating

TightHEAD wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think the biggest criticism I have of Itoje in the tournament is a failure to react to the ref, rather than his approach to the game. Many of the pens looked very borderline to me, but his failure to react and his repetition of the same offence (offside when trying to charge down) is perhaps the bigger worry.

He's still an absolutely cracking player, and one I'd have in my starting pack.

He was never offside! Poor officiating

I actually agree. But nevertheless top players unfortunately have to adapt to poor officiating.

flyhalffactory wrote:I'd select Itoje/AWJ as locks, unless we have to include Beirne who we cannot ignore, then we have a problem.....do we go;
Power/Brawn
4. Itoje
5. AWJ
6. Beirne
7. Curry
8. Faletau
or
Power/Dynamism
4. Beirne
5. AWJ
6. Faletau
7. Watson
8. Curry

or....throw it all in the bin and go
4. Gray
5. Ryan (c)
6. Stander
7. Tipuric
8. Navidi

I'd select from one of the following two options:

4.AWJ 5.Itoje 6.Beirne 7.Curry 8.Faletau

19.Ryan 20.Watson

4.AWJ 5.Ryan 6.Itoje 7.Curry 8.Faletau

19.Beirne 20.Watson

I think as a pack I'd go for: 1. Wyn Jones 2. Owens 3. Furlong 4. Itoje 5. Beirne 6. Stander 7. Watson 8. Faletau

I think there's the right mix of power, dynamism and breakdown nous there to front up to the Springboks. I felt in the World Cup final, England prioritised fetching over carrying. Unusually so, because Scotland and Wales do it more often than England do. The back five can all carry and jackal. Itoje gave away penalties aplenty over the tournament but he's still a good player. I'd possibly look at getting VDM and Tuilagi in the backline as well.

Agree with your front row. On the bench:

16.Sinckler 17.McInally 18.Vunipola

7 is a really tight call as there's little between Watson Tipuric and Curry meanwhile I really rate Underhill and his tackling power might be very handy if he returns to fitness.

6 is not as strong though so unless one of the 7s are moved across Beirne looks in pole position there.

As the Lions currently has no line out coach, Ugo Monye has suggested George Kruis might be higher in the running than anyone might imagine, as he has so much expertise in the field. Monye says he could almost be a player coach.

Against that, it's doubtful Gatland has good memories of Kruis on the last tour. Kruis was a key member of the England team but had just come back from injury. He was given a start in the first Test, and went so poorly, he was dropped altogether for the next two. In retrospect, he would have done better to have missed the tour.

Gatland said he could add to his coaching set-up, perhaps even mid-tour. He hinted this might depend on the summer schedule of the home unions. Chris Jones of the BBC suggested he has an eye on POC.

Good Morning Ladies and Gents

Well it seems we all (as well as most of the pundits) seem to agree on the test starting front row

1. Wyn Jones
2. Owens
3. Furlong

We've only got 33 left to agree on and the standby crew

According to Mark Orders, there 23 players who are nailed on:-

Back three
Certainties: Stuart Hogg, Liam Williams, Anthony Watson, Josh Adams

Centres
Certainties: Robbie Henshaw, George North

Fly-halves
Certainty: Owen Farrell

Scrum-halves
Certainty: Conor Murray

Props
Certainties: Wyn Jones, Mako Vunipola, Tadhg Furlong, Kyle Sinckler

Hookers
Certainties: Ken Owens, Jamie George

Second rows
Certainties: Alun Wyn Jones, Maro Itoje, James Ryan, Tadhg Beirne

Back row
Certainties: Taulupe Faletau, Tom Curry, Justin Tipuric, CJ Stander, Hamish Watson

Scrutinise the life out of that if you like.

Full article here:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/23-players-who-nailed-part-20384666

Clearly trying to get a reaction from fans with that list. Sure there’ll be some entertaining comments!

How the hell does this guy known those players are nailed on?! And who the hell is Mark Orders anyway? Sounds like a waitressing process!

The Oracle wrote:How the hell does this guy known those players are nailed on?!  And who the hell is Mark Orders anyway?  Sounds like a waitressing process!

Ah, here's the all important line from the article:

"Who are the men who can be considered nailed-on, then?

MARK ORDERS comes up with some names."


So he just made it up! No inside info or leaked info from the Lions staff. Just personal opinion. Gotta love WalesOnline! I think we could all get a job there!

Why such the hate Oracle ?

Why can't we just pick the bones out of his choices ? Why cant we say we agree or do not agree ?

After all I read this, this morning, and thought, I know, this will spark a discussion on our forum.

Woke up on the wrong side of the bed today did you ?

They're not absurd but Gatland seems pretty clear that he won't pick prem finalists so the certainties of Hogg, Sinckler and Curry appear not so certain.

LordDowlais wrote:Why such the hate Oracle ?

Why can't we just pick the bones out of his choices ? Why cant we say we agree or do not agree ?

After all I read this, this morning, and thought, I know, this will spark a discussion on our forum.

Woke up on the wrong side of the bed today did you ?

Because the article says those players are nailed on, yet it turns out it's just one man's opinion. So how can they be nailed on? It's typical trash journalism of this news source. That list of players may as well have been written by one of us as it holds just as much credibility. I'm just really against news sources that pass things off as 'fact' and carry some sort of authority (being news sources that some people might trust) when they are just opinion pieces. I suppose I just like proper journalism and evidence based stuff.

I don't think he is that far out to be honest, I would disagree with him on Farrell on that list, and that is about it.

How would we fill in the gaps, now there's a conundrum.

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Why such the hate Oracle ?

Why can't we just pick the bones out of his choices ? Why cant we say we agree or do not agree ?

After all I read this, this morning, and thought, I know, this will spark a discussion on our forum.

Woke up on the wrong side of the bed today did you ?

Because the article says those players are nailed on, yet it turns out it's just one man's opinion.  So how can they be nailed on?  It's typical trash journalism of this news source.  That list of players may as well have been written by one of us as it holds just as much credibility.  I'm just really against news sources that pass things off as 'fact' and carry some sort of authority (being news sources that some people might trust) when they are just opinion pieces.  I suppose I just like proper journalism and evidence based stuff.

Again, get past the journalism, and just debate the list. If you want to discuss the low standard of his work, start a new thread to discuss it.

To be honest, I do not think he is far off.

The Oracle wrote:How the hell does this guy known those players are nailed on?! And who the hell is Mark Orders anyway? Sounds like a waitressing process!

Morning Compardre
Do you want me to make you a cuppa?.....one sugar or are you sweet enough?

Anyway with the exception of Farrell, all the others has a good 6Ns, Faz will go due to his "banked credit" dead ball accuracy and versatility, he'll go possibly as the VC

My opinion is Farrell going will mean better FHs and ICs will not go. I think Biggar, Sexton and Russell are all better 10s and should start ahead, so if anything he's got to start 12 but Henshaw, Jonathan Davies even Redpath are better ICs.

Outside of 1/2p (who won't be on the plane), Sexton and Biggar, we haven't got an accurate place kicker and we know pens converted could be vital

I can't see Gats & Co selecting 4 FHs, if Sexton is the preferred 10 then I'll be disappointed to see Farrell at 12 not Henshaw

As the song went in the Sound Of Music
"How do you solve a problem called Owen Farrell"

LordDowlais wrote:According to Mark Orders, there 23 players who are nailed on:-

Back three
Certainties: Stuart Hogg, Liam Williams, Anthony Watson, Josh Adams

Centres
Certainties: Robbie Henshaw, George North

Fly-halves
Certainty: Owen Farrell

Scrum-halves
Certainty: Conor Murray

Props
Certainties: Wyn Jones, Mako Vunipola, Tadhg Furlong, Kyle Sinckler

Hookers
Certainties: Ken Owens, Jamie George

Second rows
Certainties: Alun Wyn Jones, Maro Itoje, James Ryan, Tadhg Beirne

Back row
Certainties: Taulupe Faletau, Tom Curry, Justin Tipuric, CJ Stander, Hamish Watson

Scrutinise the life out of that if you like.  

Full article here:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/23-players-who-nailed-part-20384666

Second rows
Certainties: Alun Wyn Jones, Maro Itoje, James Ryan, Tadhg Beirne

I'd have Iain Henderson ahead of Beirne in the running for Lock, Beirne in the back row for me.
Also, lets not forget that Hendo plays Lock and Back Row too so would be a versatile, experienced and on form player to bring. His off-field presence would bring more to the squad as well.

Potential captains for me are Itoje, AWJ, Curry, Sexton and Hogg.

People may not like it, but I would love to see Itoje named captain. For one, he's a fantastic player, a definite starter and one of the best players on the previous tour. He also plays right on the edge (sometimes over) and being captain you tend to get away with a bit more.

On to the romantic side.....in an era of BLM and social media going to the wall with racist abuse in football, what a statement it would be if Rugby has Itoje and Kolisi as captains on one of the biggest stages in rugby. I know you would get the cynics suggesting a token call etc, but I would genuinely feel it would be deserved.

Biggar is another player at risk of the Prem final albeit outside chance.

flyhalffactory wrote:Good Morning Ladies and Gents

Well it seems we all (as well as most of the pundits) seem to agree on the test starting front row

1. Wyn Jones
2. Owens
3. Furlong

We've only got 33 left to agree on and the standby crew

Really?

I would say Furlong is probably in the hot seat with Sinckler close behind, but the other two spots are much more open.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:People may not like it, but I would love to see Itoje named captain. For one, he's a fantastic player, a definite starter and one of the best players on the previous tour. He also plays right on the edge (sometimes over) and being captain you tend to get away with a bit more.

I agree, I think Itoje is up there in the best in the world category based on talent. But his behaviour is not captain material for me.

He needs to wind his neck in a hell of a lot. All his goading, all his winding up, he just always ends up on the wrong side of the ref, if he can work on his behaviour he would be an excellent choice, but at the moment, he just looks like the big bully in the gang who is always shouting his mouth off and causing trouble.

To add my 2 pence worth on a couple of issues:

Stuart Hoggs plus points – great attacking qualities ball in hand; very big boot which is going to be particularly valuable at altitude; captaincy experience at test level.  Things against – has been on 2 previous Lions Tours with little impact; quite likely to be in Premiership Final so will be unavailable for early part of tour; not the best under the high ball.

Barring injury I can’t see anyone but AWJ being captain.  A rugby team isn’t about picking the best 15 individual players and this is even more true for the Lions which has some fairly unique issues combing 4 International sides into 1.  He has more 6 Nations winners medals and Grand Slams than anyone else, plus the small matter of more than 150 International caps – would any other player have the respect from the rest of the squad that he has?  Gatland knows him better than anyone else and trusts him.  You know South Africa’s game plan for the first 30 minutes of each game will be to try and smash the Lions front 5.  At over 19st AWJ is one of if not the biggest lock available.  Pick him to do the donkey work and let the likes of Ryan, Itoje and Henderson duke it out for the flash part of the job.  Beirne for me has ruled himself out of contention for the second row with his performances in the 6 Nations and put himself into pole position for the 6 shirt.

theslosty wrote:7 is a really tight call as there's little between Watson Tipuric and Curry meanwhile I really rate Underhill and his tackling power might be very handy if he returns to fitness.

6 is not as strong though so unless one of the 7s are moved across Beirne looks in pole position there.

Underhill and Curry, one always plays 6..think its normally Curry, but Underhill is made for that role.

What about looking at a wild card like Ted HIll. 6'5 of bruising muscle that Eddie Jones seems to not value. He's made for this tour. And hes Captain of Worcester at only 22 so shows his leadership credentials aswell.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:People may not like it, but I would love to see Itoje named captain. For one, he's a fantastic player, a definite starter and one of the best players on the previous tour. He also plays right on the edge (sometimes over) and being captain you tend to get away with a bit more.

I agree, I think Itoje is up there in the best in the world category based on talent. But his behaviour is not captain material for me.

He needs to wind his neck in a hell of a lot. All his goading, all his winding up, he just always ends up on the wrong side of the ref, if he can work on his behaviour he would be an excellent choice, but at the moment, he just looks like the big bully in the gang who is always shouting his mouth off and causing trouble.

That rules Jones out as well then.