The v2 Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Apr 2021, 10:19 am

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/rfu-diversity-and-inclusion-advisory-group-formed

Think this probably deserves it's own topic given it's something a few people have banged on about for years. Finally the RFU have given the go ahead to have a look at who is perhaps not able or even wanting to play the game. Although it's changed ever so slightly there is still the overwhelming thought that Rugby Union in England is about the rich, posh kids who in turn are more likely to be white. How many people miss out on rugby and vice versa the talent lost to clubs because they happen to go to the wrong school etc. It's changed slightly with some league or more pre-league converts e.g. Ford and Farrell, Burrell, Tomkins and some more northern voices from league strongholds. Would be great to see a conveyor belt of some of that talent and guys like Sinckler who only picked up rugby later being given more options earlier.

Ugo Monye has been picked as the chair with the remaining members made up as so:

Group members also include:

· Sue Anstiss MBE – CEO of Fearless Women, trustee of the Women’s Sport Trust and co-founder of the Women’s Sport Collective.

· James Bailey – ex-England Sevens player, England Women Sevens head coach and current RPA D&I advisor and Rugby Sevens consultant.

· Nigel Boatswain – over 20 years at Apple, including time as the executive sponsor for ‘Black at Apple’, its D&I programme. Trustee at the Dame Kelly Holmes Trust and external project board for Sport England D&I focused 2021 Code for Sports Governance.

· Josh Brekenfeld – London Scottish board and executive committee member and director of global development at Aspen.

· Gill Burns MBE – ex-England Captain, Rugby World Cup winner and Lancashire RFU President 2019-21.

· Laura Kapo – player and chairwoman at Richmond Women.

'The group will provide insights to shape plans as well as challenge the RFU on its progress in delivering on its diversity and inclusion goals.

Former England player and D&I advisory group chair, Ugo Monye, said: “The RFU has made diversity and inclusion a core priority with clear plans being worked on that should make a substantive difference to the game.

“It’s really important that we get this right so that the anyone, from anywhere, feels rugby is a game for them. There is a wealth of experience in the advisory group and we’re all pleased to be able to contribute in driving an important agenda within the sport.”

Bill Sweeney, RFU CEO, said: “To be able to draw on the wealth of knowledge, experience and expertise in this group will be invaluable to us as we embark on plans to increase diversity in our sport and ensure it is open and inclusive to all. Consulting with others outside our organisation will provide us with different perspectives and help us to ensure that our plans are robust, meaningful, and result in tangible action.”

Within each of these four areas, the RFU is committed to better understanding where it is today compared to the wider population in terms of demographic, behavioural and attitudinal data and insight, establishing what it wants to change and how it will achieve it. Priorities include raising awareness, educating a wide range of stakeholders and delivering critical interventions alongside refreshed policies and guidance and ultimately monitoring progress, and adapting plans based on outcomes and updated insight. Currently the priority areas for action are ethnicity, gender, socio-economic status, sexual orientation and age. '


England and the clubs have some great players coming through but it could be even stronger and tapping into some working class environments etc can only be a good thing in my eyes for healthy grass roots participation and the number of supporters.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 22622
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by Old Man Tue 20 Apr 2021, 10:45 am

Going to be a heck of a challenge. It is the grass roots that need to change/develop, to implement that is a huge task

Old Man

Posts : 1188
Join date : 2019-08-27

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by The Oracle Tue 20 Apr 2021, 10:59 am

It was interesting to read the BBC report on this yesterday. There is a line in there that was interesting relating to the perception of rugby as being for the elite:

"A 2019 report entitled Elitist Britain found that 37% of male British rugby union internationals attended fee-paying schools. Across the wider population, 7% of people were privately educated".

I'd like to see the break down of that by nation as Wales, for example, has few few paying schools and I would say very few of our internationals went to these schools. So is percentage even higher if you were to look at England on its own?
The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 3370
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by LordDowlais Tue 20 Apr 2021, 12:11 pm

Rugby union has always been a working mans game in Wales, traditionally communities were built around the rugby clubs and the church, that's why Welsh fans used to be known for their singing, as they would sing the songs they learned in church, Bread of Heaven being a prime example. The only thing that has changed in Wales, is the going to church bit, unfortunately, and I am guilty of this in my adult life.

So for me, in Wales, rugby is not very elitist. It is still a game for the working man, and communities still rally around their clubs.

LordDowlais

Posts : 14516
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by Brendan Tue 20 Apr 2021, 4:38 pm

It might not be PC but it's a load of rubbish.

Are they going to force kids from Indian/Pakistani etc background to play soccer and rugby and not cricket.

Are they going to take kids from African origin and force them to play rugby rather then soccer when their dream is to play for Liverpool etc.

For most kids by the time they are 10 they know what sport they want to play.  Poorer kids can't afford all the costs associated with rugby and when the kid's mates only want to play soccer on the green they do too.

Poorer kids who do want to play rugby get picked up by fee paying schools and get an education they may not deserve from a learning point if view.

Also if you want more kids to be like rugby players have the players act less like gentlemen on and off the field and copy soccer players who reflect more the lives of the poorer kids

Brendan

Posts : 3565
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

profitius likes this post

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by Brendan Tue 20 Apr 2021, 4:51 pm

Rugby League is a working class game because they know their audience.

Take any disadvantaged area.  The guys who could be rugby players are fighters and ruffians who want to show how hard they are.  They look like they have been in fights and are rough around the edges.  They don't want to go on a field and say yes sir no sir.

Union players come across for the most part as the nice kid next story who the parents love.  The boys don't want to be that, they want to be the kid the parents tell them to stay away from.

Don't know many players backgrounds but Union players speak well and when any of them seem to show any bit of common person they get given out to and told it's not rugby values.

Brendan

Posts : 3565
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Apr 2021, 4:57 pm

Jesus Christ.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 22622
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by king_carlos Tue 20 Apr 2021, 6:43 pm

The Oracle wrote:It was interesting to read the BBC report on this yesterday.  There is a line in there that was interesting relating to the perception of rugby as being for the elite:

"A 2019 report entitled Elitist Britain found that 37% of male British rugby union internationals attended fee-paying schools. Across the wider population, 7% of people were privately educated".

I'd like to see the break down of that by nation as Wales, for example, has few few paying schools and I would say very few of our internationals went to these schools.  So is percentage even higher if you were to look at England on its own?

AWJ, North and Rhodri Jones were all LLandovery pupils. Amos attended Monmouth.

Francis, Rowlands, Botham, Sheedy and Johnny Williams attended various private schools in England.

So much fewer attending private schools in Wales but 9 out of a 36 man squad in the 2021 Six Nations attended fee paying schools, so 25% of the squad overall.

Halaholo and Navidi both attended states schools in New Zealand. Not note worthy for Halaholo of course but I only learnt that about Navidi today. Fun fact for a Tuesday evening!

(That's just going from Wiki, some players don't have their schools listed so could possibly be more but I've not searched any deeper)

king_carlos

Posts : 7290
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Ankh-Morpork

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by king_carlos Tue 20 Apr 2021, 7:00 pm

Brendan - At what point has there been any suggestion of forcing anyone to do anything? The point is to provide greater opportunity that is isn't currently there for those who may be interested. In time hopefully that limited interest in communities that rugby hasn't been accessible to can grow into greater interest within those communities.

German cricket is an interesting case study in this. Germany taking in so many Afghani refugees led to an increase in interest in cricket and hence facilities due to those Afghani communities. Access to said facilities and coaching has in turn led to an increase in interest in cricket from native German's in parts of the country. If opportunity and access can be increased then interest and participation can often increase with it.

In England's 2003 RWC final side there was 1 player of colour - Jason Robinson. In the 2019 RWC final there were 8 - Mako, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Billy, Manu, Watson and Joseph. That certainly seems to indicate strides in the right direction for appealing to a wider player and therefore fan base. I believe things have improved in some ways but there is an awfully long way to go still with regards to rugby being so private school centric.

king_carlos

Posts : 7290
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Ankh-Morpork

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by The Oracle Tue 20 Apr 2021, 8:38 pm

king_carlos wrote:
The Oracle wrote:It was interesting to read the BBC report on this yesterday.  There is a line in there that was interesting relating to the perception of rugby as being for the elite:

"A 2019 report entitled Elitist Britain found that 37% of male British rugby union internationals attended fee-paying schools. Across the wider population, 7% of people were privately educated".

I'd like to see the break down of that by nation as Wales, for example, has few few paying schools and I would say very few of our internationals went to these schools.  So is percentage even higher if you were to look at England on its own?

AWJ, North and Rhodri Jones were all LLandovery pupils. Amos attended Monmouth.

Francis, Rowlands, Botham, Sheedy and Johnny Williams attended various private schools in England.

So much fewer attending private schools in Wales but 9 out of a 36 man squad in the 2021 Six Nations attended fee paying schools, so 25% of the squad overall.

Halaholo and Navidi both attended states schools in New Zealand. Not note worthy for Halaholo of course but I only learnt that about Navidi today. Fun fact for a Tuesday evening!

(That's just going from Wiki, some players don't have their schools listed so could possibly be more but I've not searched any deeper)

I think AWJ and North just went to the 6th form at Llandovery college, as they’re listed as attending ‘normal’ state comprehensive schools too (North in Anglesey and AWJ in Swansea). Maybe they got a sports scholarship for a couple of years while doing their A-levels? Interestingly I’ve just read that the Ospreys and Llandovery college have a partnership. So perhaps they take in Ospreys academy players on an education/sport playing basis, although this is a recent thing so not to do with AWJ.

Edit:  Rhodri Jones too.  He went to Ysgol Uwchradd Tywyn a Welsh medium comprehensive school.  Llandovery for 6th form.  There’s a pattern forming here!  Maybe that link up between Ospreys and the college wasn’t so recent.

Sheedy went to Corpus Christi catholic school in Cardiff which is a normal comprehensive school! But yes he then got a scholarship to Millfield, again for sixth form/A-levels.

The others seemed to go to fee paying schools..... and they’re English born and bred! So sort of proves my point a little!

Edit No.2: Jonny Williams - seems to be normal state eduction to me. Can’t find anything on those schools about fees, and you apply for a place through the council so I think he’s state educated.


Last edited by The Oracle on Tue 20 Apr 2021, 8:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 3370
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by The Oracle Tue 20 Apr 2021, 8:42 pm

Brendan wrote:It might not be PC but it's a load of rubbish.

Are they going to force kids from Indian/Pakistani etc background to play soccer and rugby and not cricket.

Are they going to take kids from African origin and force them to play rugby rather then soccer when their dream is to play for Liverpool etc.

For most kids by the time they are 10 they know what sport they want to play.  Poorer kids can't afford all the costs associated with rugby and when the kid's mates only want to play soccer on the green they do too.

Poorer kids who do want to play rugby get picked up by fee paying schools and get an education they may not deserve from a learning point if view.

Also if you want more kids to be like rugby players have the players act less like gentlemen on and off the field and copy soccer players who reflect more the lives of the poorer kids

What a load of drivel! What additional costs are associated with rugby?! My son plays both rugby and soccer at the age of 6 and the costs are the same! Kit, boots and subs. Same within a few £ of each other.

‘Poorer kids who want to play rugby get picked up by few paying schools’?! What?! Maybe in your world. Certainly didn’t happen for us in Wales! We wanted to play rugby, and did, and just went to normal schools and played rugby in school and then in local clubs. No-one swooped in and no one asked us to pay school fees!
The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 3370
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by king_carlos Tue 20 Apr 2021, 10:22 pm

The Oracle wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
The Oracle wrote:It was interesting to read the BBC report on this yesterday.  There is a line in there that was interesting relating to the perception of rugby as being for the elite:

"A 2019 report entitled Elitist Britain found that 37% of male British rugby union internationals attended fee-paying schools. Across the wider population, 7% of people were privately educated".

I'd like to see the break down of that by nation as Wales, for example, has few few paying schools and I would say very few of our internationals went to these schools.  So is percentage even higher if you were to look at England on its own?

AWJ, North and Rhodri Jones were all LLandovery pupils. Amos attended Monmouth.

Francis, Rowlands, Botham, Sheedy and Johnny Williams attended various private schools in England.

So much fewer attending private schools in Wales but 9 out of a 36 man squad in the 2021 Six Nations attended fee paying schools, so 25% of the squad overall.

Halaholo and Navidi both attended states schools in New Zealand. Not note worthy for Halaholo of course but I only learnt that about Navidi today. Fun fact for a Tuesday evening!

(That's just going from Wiki, some players don't have their schools listed so could possibly be more but I've not searched any deeper)

I think AWJ and North just went to the 6th form at Llandovery college, as they’re listed as attending ‘normal’ state comprehensive schools too (North in Anglesey and AWJ in Swansea). Maybe they got a sports scholarship for a couple of years while doing their A-levels? Interestingly I’ve just read that the Ospreys and Llandovery college have a partnership. So perhaps they take in Ospreys academy players on an education/sport playing basis, although this is a recent thing so not to do with AWJ.

Edit:  Rhodri Jones too.  He went to Ysgol Uwchradd Tywyn a Welsh medium comprehensive school.  Llandovery for 6th form.  There’s a pattern forming here!  Maybe that link up between Ospreys and the college wasn’t so recent.

Sheedy went to Corpus Christi catholic school in Cardiff which is a normal comprehensive school! But yes he then got a scholarship to Millfield, again for sixth form/A-levels.

The others seemed to go to fee paying schools..... and they’re English born and bred! So sort of proves my point a little!

Edit No.2: Jonny Williams - seems to be normal state eduction to me.  Can’t find anything on those schools about fees, and you apply for a place through the council so I think he’s state educated.

For some reason I had it in my head that Williams was a Harrow pupil! My mistake.

Some of the England players that the article in questions list in that 37% will have received scholarships later in their schooling too it should be said. I've not got time to check all of them but I know Billy for instance was a scholarship at Harrow. Itoje and Obano also received scholarships I believe as I remember it being mentioned in a podcast - they are also cousins!

In the last 20 years or so since the game went pro more and more private schools have had the funding for rugby scholarships it seems.

Rugby Union in England is far too private school centric, I'm all in favour of moves such as this to try to offer greater opportunity so not for a second suggesting it isn't a problem in English rugby by pointing out that some England internationals in those figures will have attended state schools prior to being spotted for their rugby potential.

king_carlos

Posts : 7290
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Ankh-Morpork

The Oracle likes this post

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by The Oracle Tue 20 Apr 2021, 11:02 pm

king_carlos wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
The Oracle wrote:It was interesting to read the BBC report on this yesterday.  There is a line in there that was interesting relating to the perception of rugby as being for the elite:

"A 2019 report entitled Elitist Britain found that 37% of male British rugby union internationals attended fee-paying schools. Across the wider population, 7% of people were privately educated".

I'd like to see the break down of that by nation as Wales, for example, has few few paying schools and I would say very few of our internationals went to these schools.  So is percentage even higher if you were to look at England on its own?

AWJ, North and Rhodri Jones were all LLandovery pupils. Amos attended Monmouth.

Francis, Rowlands, Botham, Sheedy and Johnny Williams attended various private schools in England.

So much fewer attending private schools in Wales but 9 out of a 36 man squad in the 2021 Six Nations attended fee paying schools, so 25% of the squad overall.

Halaholo and Navidi both attended states schools in New Zealand. Not note worthy for Halaholo of course but I only learnt that about Navidi today. Fun fact for a Tuesday evening!

(That's just going from Wiki, some players don't have their schools listed so could possibly be more but I've not searched any deeper)

I think AWJ and North just went to the 6th form at Llandovery college, as they’re listed as attending ‘normal’ state comprehensive schools too (North in Anglesey and AWJ in Swansea). Maybe they got a sports scholarship for a couple of years while doing their A-levels? Interestingly I’ve just read that the Ospreys and Llandovery college have a partnership. So perhaps they take in Ospreys academy players on an education/sport playing basis, although this is a recent thing so not to do with AWJ.

Edit:  Rhodri Jones too.  He went to Ysgol Uwchradd Tywyn a Welsh medium comprehensive school.  Llandovery for 6th form.  There’s a pattern forming here!  Maybe that link up between Ospreys and the college wasn’t so recent.

Sheedy went to Corpus Christi catholic school in Cardiff which is a normal comprehensive school! But yes he then got a scholarship to Millfield, again for sixth form/A-levels.

The others seemed to go to fee paying schools..... and they’re English born and bred! So sort of proves my point a little!

Edit No.2: Jonny Williams - seems to be normal state eduction to me.  Can’t find anything on those schools about fees, and you apply for a place through the council so I think he’s state educated.

For some reason I had it in my head that Williams was a Harrow pupil! My mistake.

Some of the England players that the article in questions list in that 37% will have received scholarships later in their schooling too it should be said. I've not got time to check all of them but I know Billy for instance was a scholarship at Harrow. Itoje and Obano also received scholarships I believe as I remember it being mentioned in a podcast - they are also cousins!

In the last 20 years or so since the game went pro more and more private schools have had the funding for rugby scholarships it seems.

Rugby Union in England is far too private school centric, I'm all in favour of moves such as this to try to offer greater opportunity so not for a second suggesting it isn't a problem in English rugby by pointing out that some England internationals in those figures will have attended state schools prior to being spotted for their rugby potential.

Yes agreed.  I’m not complaining either.  Private schools are just much more common in England.  Very few and far between in Wales, but they do exist.  I remember going to uni in England and at the time I didn’t know anyone at all who had been to private school, but got to uni and everyone I met seemed to have been! Just seemed to be the norm to them!  Whereas I’m back home in Wales now and still hardly anyone I know sends their kids to private school. Just the one friend whose parents have become wealthy and pay for the grandchildren to go.  But none of the rest of us even though we’re all in relatively well paid professional jobs.  Obviously economics and social norms comes into it, but I think there’s just far more private education provision in England compared to Wales, even when you pro rata it by population (just a guess).  Nothing wrong with it of course. But just commenting on the ‘elite’ perception of the game which doesn’t really fit in Wales where it was and is a game for the working man, the game of the coal miners and more recently steel workers, policemen, etc., along with the minority who are privately educated.  You go to the grassroots clubs in Wales, and all the way up to the Welsh premiership, and the majority are in working class, low income, often deprived areas.  Just the way it is!
The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 3370
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by LordDowlais Wed 21 Apr 2021, 8:16 am

Just as an aside. When I was in school, a normal comprehensive school, our teachers would only allow us to play rugby during the rugby season, and cricket in the summer.

Football was a treat. We played that as a one off if the weather was too bad and we had to do gym in the assembly hall.

My daughters have been in the same school, and my youngest is still there, and it's still the same. Christian Dacey and the Sidoli brothers came through the same school.

As Oracle has said though, if a kid wants to play rugby in Wales, they ask their parents to take them to the local club and start training. They will then get a game. We do not have anybody riding in on a noble steed offering scholarships and the what not.

Rugby in Wales seems a lot different to rugby in other countries around the British Isles it would seem.

LordDowlais

Posts : 14516
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 21 Apr 2021, 8:59 am

As a kid in the north east of England I played rugby 3 times at a comp. school. The rules of the game were never explained and we were banned from kicking the ball. There's clearly a massive amount of kids who could get into the game with some more focus.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 22622
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 21 Apr 2021, 11:09 am

I went to a comprehensive school in the late 60's, a very working class area, there was no discrimination with regard to what sport you played, being a very large school you could take your pick of which summer and winter sport you wanted to play. Unusually for a school in the South East, the majority of kids wanted to play rugby. We were the first generation to be properly fed post WWII and by the standards of the time we were massive. I was 6'4" and around 14 stone at 16 and not even close to being the biggest in the pack. As a result, due to the rugby style of those days and our size we were very successful, kids want to play for the successful team. The football team was rubbish. Were we unusual, certainly not in our area, all the schools played rugby, comprehensives, grammar, secular, it was the main sport in the town for school kids.

We were also very inclusive for the time, with a number of Asian kids playing for us including a pair of identical twins at prop. I can't think of any other kids of colour that played for us, but certainly the local colts side had a number.

I don't think that playing rugby was any more expensive than football, still only boots, shorts and shirt to pay for plus a match fee.
WELL-PAST-IT
WELL-PAST-IT

Posts : 3045
Join date : 2011-06-01

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by TightHEAD Wed 21 Apr 2021, 12:59 pm

My local club has problems with the kids from fee paying schools, they are rarely available for games as school comes first, when they do turn up they are at a much higher level as (you would expect!) but with lockdown it is clear that have been playing a lot of rugby over the last year. the Kids from state schools have not been allowed to play or even go to school for that matter. One rule for one and one for the privileged.

So many kids are lost to the game because they just do not get a chance.
TightHEAD
TightHEAD

Posts : 5937
Join date : 2014-09-25
Age : 59
Location : Brexit Island.

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by Brendan Wed 21 Apr 2021, 2:36 pm

Let me clarify some of my points.

If your kid is in a soccer club it is usually closer to home (unless it's Wales or NZ), you travel longer distance for games.  While you may only need boots there are other costs the longer your kid hangs around as soccer doesn't really do much outside of running for body training.  I've been the kid going to training with a friend's old pair of boots and not having the same gear as everyone else. It is more drastic if you are a poor kid in Rugby v soccer.

If you are good you get picked up by better schools in Rugby so boosting international numbers will always come from the private schools.  Non fee paying schools can buy a few balls to play soccer but need alot more gear for both the kids and training for rugby.  Add in the extra insurance costs and normal schools who are struggling to pay bills aren't going to do rugby which as I have said previously is the only way to grow rugby among kids.

Taking a kid to a club that none of their friends go to and you don't know any of the parents is alot harder then letting a neighbour who your kids are friends go to the soccer club.

Brendan

Posts : 3565
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by Brendan Wed 21 Apr 2021, 2:54 pm

Regarding forcing kids to play rugby it is basically what they are looking to do.  They are looking to get kids who predominantly play Cricket, Football or no sport to stop picking them and instead get into rugby and reject what their parents/friends want them to play.

People pick sports for life based on friends, school or adult in their life.  For most kids Rugby is in very few of these people's lives who they are trying to get. By 10 kids have picked there sport most of the time.

Football has struggled to get Brittish Asians into their sport when they account for sizeable portions of urban areas where football is king.  Most Asians playing in the top few divisions of the English football pryimad are Asians from Asia as opposed to Asian heritage.

Asians generally are more likely to be good enough to get non sports related scholarships to private schools so if they are taking up the sport while going to a private school they don't want to.

If the RFU want to get more diversity into rugby maybe they should buy more rugby equipment for schools and pay for a fulltime development officer to run the rugby program at the school.  After all its the same RFU that does very little with the existing grassroots clubs.

Brendan

Posts : 3565
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by Brendan Wed 21 Apr 2021, 3:06 pm

Women obviously make up 50% of the population.

Ethnicity in the UK 2011
White - 87%
Asian - 7%
Black - 3%
Mixed - 2%
Other - 1%

NRS social grade for UK 2016
Upper/Upper Middle 4%
Middle Middle 23%
Lower Middle 28%
Skilled Working Class 20%
Working Class 15%
Non Working Class 10%

Brendan

Posts : 3565
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by Brendan Wed 21 Apr 2021, 3:21 pm

Private school students in the UK 2007 is 7%

Sports England say 170k people play rugby once a week.

Player numbers for boys/men are
Pre-teen 362k
Teen 698k
Adult 121k

Seems most players take up rugby in their teens

Brendan

Posts : 3565
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 21 Apr 2021, 6:59 pm

Firstly, I went to a public secondary school that was mostly GAA, but what is the problem with certain teams being made up of mostly players from private schools? Of course private schools are going to produce better players on the whole with their superior coaching and training facilities, it would be very strange if they didn't have a higher representation. So long as the best players are picked that's all that matters to me.

LeinsterFan4life

Posts : 5487
Join date : 2012-03-13
Age : 31
Location : Meath

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by The Oracle Wed 21 Apr 2021, 7:46 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Firstly, I went to a public secondary school that was mostly GAA, but what is the problem with certain teams being made up of mostly players from private schools? Of course private schools are going to produce better players on the whole with their superior coaching and training facilities, it would be very strange if they didn't have a higher representation. So long as the best players are picked that's all that matters to me.


This isn’t necessarily about the pro or international teams being made up of mostly players from private schools, although that is perhaps an indicator of the ‘issue’. This (the diversity group) is about the sport in certain parts of the UK (perhaps England more so) being perceived by youngsters as ‘only for the rich’ and for those going to private school, and therefore feeling discouraged from picking it up or giving it a go. Basically, if you could get around that then you/England would be able to tap into a much broader range of sporting talent from across England. Which is a scary prospect as they’re good enough without it! But it comes back to things like Monye saying there were much better and faster players than him in school but they didn’t feel rugby was ‘for them’. Which is fine and everyone has choice, but if they felt included then maybe they would have given it a shot and become top players like Monye. I remember reading an article with Genge a while back where again he felt, and still sometimes feels as a pro, like an outsider in a rich mans sport coming from a council estate. He felt he didn’t belong and still struggles with it a bit. So its not all to do with race and trying to force Asians to become prop forwards (as Brendan sort of alluded to). Class is another diversity thing that they’re trying to address.
The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 3370
Join date : 2018-01-16

doctor_grey, Poorfour, No 7&1/2 and TheMildlyFranticLlama like this post

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by doctor_grey Wed 21 Apr 2021, 7:56 pm

The Oracle wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Firstly, I went to a public secondary school that was mostly GAA, but what is the problem with certain teams being made up of mostly players from private schools? Of course private schools are going to produce better players on the whole with their superior coaching and training facilities, it would be very strange if they didn't have a higher representation. So long as the best players are picked that's all that matters to me.


This isn’t necessarily about the pro or international teams being made up of mostly players from private schools, although that is perhaps an indicator of the ‘issue’.  This (the diversity group) is about the sport in certain parts of the UK (perhaps England more so) being perceived by youngsters as ‘only for the rich’ and for those going to private school, and therefore feeling discouraged from picking it up or giving it a go.  Basically, if you could get around that then you/England would be able to tap into a much broader range of sporting talent from across England.  Which is a scary prospect as they’re good enough without it!  But it comes back to things like Monye saying there were much better and faster players than him in school but they didn’t feel rugby was ‘for them’.  Which is fine and everyone has choice, but if they felt included then maybe they would have given it a shot and become top players like Monye.  I remember reading an article with Genge a while back where again he felt, and still sometimes feels as a pro, like an outsider in a rich mans sport coming from a council estate.  He felt he didn’t belong and still struggles with it a bit.  So its not all to do with race and trying to force Asians to become prop forwards (as Brendan sort of alluded to).  Class is another diversity thing that they’re trying to address.
Really well said. Our sport becomes better with more players at every level. Our nation becomes better with more people mixing in.

doctor_grey

Posts : 9039
Join date : 2011-04-30

Poorfour and The Oracle like this post

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by The Oracle Wed 21 Apr 2021, 8:50 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Firstly, I went to a public secondary school that was mostly GAA, but what is the problem with certain teams being made up of mostly players from private schools? Of course private schools are going to produce better players on the whole with their superior coaching and training facilities, it would be very strange if they didn't have a higher representation. So long as the best players are picked that's all that matters to me.


This isn’t necessarily about the pro or international teams being made up of mostly players from private schools, although that is perhaps an indicator of the ‘issue’.  This (the diversity group) is about the sport in certain parts of the UK (perhaps England more so) being perceived by youngsters as ‘only for the rich’ and for those going to private school, and therefore feeling discouraged from picking it up or giving it a go.  Basically, if you could get around that then you/England would be able to tap into a much broader range of sporting talent from across England.  Which is a scary prospect as they’re good enough without it!  But it comes back to things like Monye saying there were much better and faster players than him in school but they didn’t feel rugby was ‘for them’.  Which is fine and everyone has choice, but if they felt included then maybe they would have given it a shot and become top players like Monye.  I remember reading an article with Genge a while back where again he felt, and still sometimes feels as a pro, like an outsider in a rich mans sport coming from a council estate.  He felt he didn’t belong and still struggles with it a bit.  So its not all to do with race and trying to force Asians to become prop forwards (as Brendan sort of alluded to).  Class is another diversity thing that they’re trying to address.
Really well said.  Our sport becomes better with more players at every level.  Our nation becomes better with more people mixing in.  


I know this is an RFU thing so not related to Wales, but I think the comparison is interesting.  As I’ve said above it is a bit different in Wales.  Yes a few of the Wales players went to private schools, often later in their school lives and perhaps on scholarships.  But generally the game is a working class sport and barriers to entry are not the same as other areas of the UK.  You only have to watch Scrum V when they go out to a grass roots game in the community and you see the toothless wonders standing on the sidelines to know this is not a rich mans sport in Wales!  No offence to the toothless wonders Smile So youngsters do not have that class barrier in Wales. You drive around the poor areas of Wales and still see rugby posts everywhere. It’s part of the community and even though the regions might be struggling the grassroots game is still alive and well (but with the usual ebb and flow, boom and bust of certain clubs).  So it was never a barrier for me.  It was always just ‘normal’ everyday folk who played it.  My local club side, who my son plays mini rugby for - you look at their senior squad and it’s just full of all sorts of normal trades.  Guys from the village and surrounding areas who are painters, builders, carpenters, plumbers, plasterers, some students, factory workers and up to things like accountants and teachers and other professionals. Rarely directors and chief execs!  It’s great actually as you can always get a recommendation for someone in the club to do some work in the house if I’m not up to DIY!  There may be other barriers though.  Wales is fairly diverse in terms of race and ethnicity, but not as much as England.  The BAME population is not as big in Wales as a percentage of population.  Probably as it’s not as affluent as England so if you’re going to settle in the UK you’re more likely to choose England with more and better paid jobs, especially in the South East.  So it might be seen as more of a white man’s sport here in Wales and perhaps we could do better to address that barrier.  But class certainly isn’t an issue for rugby in Wales, luckily.

Going back to England though, and just another anecdote from me - I mentioned previously about going to uni in England and everyone (apart from me) seeming to come from a private school background.  The rugby team there was a real eye opener!  It was not something I was used to.  It seemed to attract a certain type of guy.  It was very ‘rah rah’ and basically like the Rugger B*ggers or whatever they were called on Harry Enfield.  “I’ll get them in, good man, well done sir!”.  All chinos and blue oxford shirts, club ties, turned up collars, well spoken, posh debauchery! And this was not a great uni!  Just an old polytechnic that became a uni in the post-93 shake up. But the rugby team seemed to attract the ex-public school boys from the Home Counties while the football team was a bit more diverse.  Really good guys in the main though and lifelong friends some of them now. But I can see how some might have felt the rugby team in uni might not ‘be for them’ if they did not fit the rah rah mould.  It’s quite hard to break those stereotypes and I think that’s where the RFU is looking to make changes with this move.
The Oracle
The Oracle

Posts : 3370
Join date : 2018-01-16

Poorfour likes this post

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by TJ Sun 25 Apr 2021, 2:22 pm

In Scotland - in the borders its a working mans game but in Glasgow and Edinburgh its a fee playing schools game for the posh boys

Thats a pretty high powered taskforce thats been assembled. that gives me hope.

TJ

Posts : 7789
Join date : 2013-09-22

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 27 Apr 2021, 12:13 am

TJ wrote:In Scotland - in the borders its a working mans game but in Glasgow and Edinburgh its a fee playing schools game for the posh boys

Thats a pretty high powered taskforce thats been assembled.  that gives me hope.

TJ, as per Oracle's excellent post above, the real key is to make sure we open rugby access to everyone. Everyone. I'd hate to think that potential Edinburgh players, or even Scotland players, were discouraged due to class or access reasons. We also shouldn't discourage the private school thing. We want as broad a pool as possible. If the best XV players hail from Merchiston and Loretto then fine. Provided we have as broad a pool as possible to select from.

funnyExiledScot

Posts : 16614
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 40
Location : Edinburgh

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by king_carlos Tue 27 Apr 2021, 2:08 am

I've lived in Edinburgh for 10 years and FES's post above is the first time I've heard of Loretto School. I half expected it to be cryptic Scottish rugby nickname sneaking it's head out from the Edinburgh and Glasgow thread for wee holiday but upon Googling it found out it's just the genuine name of the oldest boarding school in Scotland.

I feel like I've just stumbled across some sort of secret association. I played at a prominent Edinburgh club for years and met former pupils from Heriots, Merchiston, Strathallan, Boroughmuir, Stewart Melville, Fettes, Glasgow High, Kelvinside, etc, etc but have literally never heard or read the name Loretto before. Bizarre!

king_carlos

Posts : 7290
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Ankh-Morpork

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by Poorfour Tue 27 Apr 2021, 7:43 am

This is quite literally 125 years overdue. Rugby’s problem with class goes back to the Union/league schism, and in the 25 years or so we’ve had professionalism, very little has been done to address it. Most state schools don’t have the coaches, the grounds or the inclination to play the game, and anything that can be done to get more kids interested is good for the health of the game.

Wales is so different from England. Touring there with my kids it was amazing to see villages where everyone’s houses backed on to the rugby pitch and the club was still the heart of the community.
Poorfour
Poorfour

Posts : 4420
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by LordDowlais Tue 27 Apr 2021, 7:54 am

Poorfour wrote:Wales is so different from England. Touring there with my kids it was amazing to see villages where everyone’s houses backed on to the rugby pitch and the club was still the heart of the community.

Yes, it does seem bizarre.

I have never really known it to be this bad in the UK and Ireland. Wales seems a lot different. Most communities in Wales are built around their rugby club. In fact, if there is a spare patch of grass, then there are rugby posts on it. There are about 7 prominent clubs in my town alone, and there is only 50,000 of us.

Rugby thrives for everyone in Wales, not just for the privileged.

LordDowlais

Posts : 14516
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

doctor_grey and Poorfour like this post

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by doctor_grey Wed 28 Apr 2021, 11:05 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Wales is so different from England. Touring there with my kids it was amazing to see villages where everyone’s houses backed on to the rugby pitch and the club was still the heart of the community.

Yes, it does seem bizarre.

I have never really known it to be this bad in the UK and Ireland. Wales seems a lot different. Most communities in Wales are built around their rugby club. In fact, if there is a spare patch of grass, then there are rugby posts on it. There are about 7 prominent clubs in my town alone, and there is only 50,000 of us.

Rugby thrives for everyone in Wales, not just for the privileged.
Would like to see more of this in England. Interesting here in America where the game is growing differently, there is no real class or racial distinction. However, most players were exposed to the game in uni, simply because most schools play it at uni level and most age grade is through clubs. Clubs like mine who have a great flag through age group, men's and women's and old boys are growing, but still not the majority. 7s is helping (whether it is actually Rugby or not).

doctor_grey

Posts : 9039
Join date : 2011-04-30

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by LordDowlais Thu 29 Apr 2021, 8:53 am

doctor_grey wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Wales is so different from England. Touring there with my kids it was amazing to see villages where everyone’s houses backed on to the rugby pitch and the club was still the heart of the community.

Yes, it does seem bizarre.

I have never really known it to be this bad in the UK and Ireland. Wales seems a lot different. Most communities in Wales are built around their rugby club. In fact, if there is a spare patch of grass, then there are rugby posts on it. There are about 7 prominent clubs in my town alone, and there is only 50,000 of us.

Rugby thrives for everyone in Wales, not just for the privileged.
Would like to see more of this in England.  Interesting here in America where the game is growing differently, there is no real class or racial distinction.  However, most players were exposed to the game in uni, simply because most schools play it at uni level and most age grade is through clubs.  Clubs like mine who have a great flag through age group, men's and women's and old boys are growing, but still not the majority.  7s is helping (whether it is actually Rugby or not).    

In Wales, it is more of a family orientated pastime. Although, since the pandemic, I do not know how easy it is going to be to get things up and running again, as it does take a lot of effort from the whole family and friends at times to keep it going, but since the pandemic, and the fact that they cannot do it, will they start doing it again when all this is over ?

This is what people outside Wales do not really take into account, it is the sheer amount of people involved in the sport just for the love of the game. There are 83,120 registered players. Now the biggest chunk of that number will be at grass routes level. So I would say you could almost triple that number for the amount of people involved. Which is what people need to take into account when they are assessing the regions.

When people are saying that the regions are not getting support, that is correct, but they have so much other rugby to compete with.

To go back to the original point, with rugby in Wales being for everyone, this is why. You have the parents taking the kids, who will not just stop there, they will stay and watch, and they will contribute with washing the kits, helping with food in the clubhouse, helping with fund raising events even helping with training, everyone gets involved, and as these kids go up through the age grade, the parents and family members will follow them, by the time they are a young adult and playing for the firsts, you most likely get the parents, the players children and the players wife/partner all watching them play. Then mostly all the people will go to the club house afterwards, that is the community part, not to mention the actual fans as well.

So in Wales, in the community game, you will have all the age grades up to the seniors, you have all the families associated one way or another, and then all the fans who will go and watch the team play. Take my town for example, there are at least 7 clubs, all with age grade, so from the young age of the youth, right through the ranks to the seniors, you must be touching on 100 people playing rugby per club, so times that by 7 and thats is how many people in my town are playing, now add in all the family members, then add in all the coaches, then add in all the people running the club, and the clubhouses, then add in the people who rock up to watch their village/town play, that is a lot of people from one area all involved in the community game, these people have an affiliation with their community, and then ask yourself, why would they want to go and watch a region, that they have no affiliation to, what so ever, other than the WRU said this is now your region, go and support them. These people will sit down in the clubhouse and have a pint with the person who they were just cheering on from the sidelines, it brings everyone together.

In Merthyr for example, when they were building the new clubhouse, Merthyr RFC used my club as their club house, I knew most of them from going to the games and going to the rugby club anyway, but you had Stan Thomas sitting in the bar drinking his wine talking to the fans, you have Dale MacIntosh with his pint of wine, lol, mingling with the fans talking about what just happened on the pitch, you have the players in there enjoying a pint and just mingling with their families and the what not, it is very community. Heck, I have even seen some of the comity members bollocking young rugby lads twice their size because they are getting too "rowdy", if they won't listen then they will tell their old man... Laugh

This is what rugby is in Wales, this is what it is all about, this is what it means to the people in this small country. Then when it's international day, by Christ, it's almost like a national holiday, where Cardiff will double in size, and all the communities descend onto their local clubs and pubs to support the national side.

Rugby in Wales always starts at a very young age, and that is why, if the WRU want success everywhere, it's the community game they need to protect.

LordDowlais

Posts : 14516
Join date : 2011-05-18
Location : Merthyr Tydfil

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 29 Apr 2021, 9:45 am

I'm sure there are a lot of push and pull factors on this area for the group to consider. How easy is it to get to clubs etc , costs, pull factors of the media from football, culture, racism, concerns over safety etc etc. Not an easy job for them but in a lot of areas I'm sure there will be some quick gains so I'm hoping they get the continued longer term support for it as it could be great for communities and the national team longer term.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 22622
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by Poorfour Thu 29 Apr 2021, 10:27 am

LordDowlais wrote:This is what rugby is in Wales, this is what it is all about, this is what it means to the people in this small country. Then when it's international day, by Christ, it's almost like a national holiday, where Cardiff will double in size, and all the communities descend onto their local clubs and pubs to support the national side.

Rugby in Wales always starts at a very young age, and that is why, if the WRU want success everywhere, it's the community game they need to protect.

It's similar in England in some respects - I coach my kids across two local clubs and we have between 3-500 kids out on a Sunday across the age range, and we're only one in dozens of London clubs who are doing it. But I think the difference is that it's not as rooted in the community. A lot of villages in Wales seem to be literally built around the rugby pitches, whereas in England it's more often a thing you have to drive to. We probably gain in terms of committed players but lose out in terms of the sheer catchment, and a lot of talented players go by the wayside. We've lost good players in our age group to swimming, cycling, soccer and even rowing.

Worryingly, the RFU chose to protect the professional game last year at the cost of cutting almost all community rugby support. I can understand the decision, but a lot will depend on how far and how fast they can re-establish the structure. I would imagine a number of community coaches have gone in to private coaching or private schools and they may struggle to get them back.
Poorfour
Poorfour

Posts : 4420
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by Brendan Thu 29 Apr 2021, 6:04 pm

I still stand by that until rugby gets a foothold in primary and secondary schools it will continue to be a minor sport propped up by the private schools and that is where rugby loses out to other sports.

I live in a Cork Suburb that has about 5 villages near by feeding into the two large secondary schools.
Of the 10 primary school (u12) everyone one has a football and hurling team (GAA) including the all girls school. Half have a soccer team (None in the girl's school). None have a rugby team.
The 2 secondary schools (about 2.5k between them) both have football, hurling, soccer and a hockey team. One has a male rugby team and the other school has showjumping.  My friend worked at the school with no rugby and asked about it and the response was cost and interest.

For clubs there are about 6 GAA clubs, 4 soccer and 1 rugby. Only the local GAA came to my daughter's school to give them a 6 week training course after which they got a pink ball. The suburb has doubled in size in the last 15 years so loads of families unattached to clubs looking for a sport for their kids.

If the Unions want to grow the game they have to get tag rugby into all schools rather then hope someone at the local club puts in loads of extra hours getting people in.

My kids can do robotics, programming, tennis and loads of other activities after school.  If they could have done tag I think some of them would have and then more interested in going to the club.

Brendan

Posts : 3565
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP Empty Re: RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum