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RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Apr 2021, 10:19 am

First topic message reminder :

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/rfu-diversity-and-inclusion-advisory-group-formed

Think this probably deserves it's own topic given it's something a few people have banged on about for years. Finally the RFU have given the go ahead to have a look at who is perhaps not able or even wanting to play the game. Although it's changed ever so slightly there is still the overwhelming thought that Rugby Union in England is about the rich, posh kids who in turn are more likely to be white. How many people miss out on rugby and vice versa the talent lost to clubs because they happen to go to the wrong school etc. It's changed slightly with some league or more pre-league converts e.g. Ford and Farrell, Burrell, Tomkins and some more northern voices from league strongholds. Would be great to see a conveyor belt of some of that talent and guys like Sinckler who only picked up rugby later being given more options earlier.

Ugo Monye has been picked as the chair with the remaining members made up as so:

Group members also include:

· Sue Anstiss MBE – CEO of Fearless Women, trustee of the Women’s Sport Trust and co-founder of the Women’s Sport Collective.

· James Bailey – ex-England Sevens player, England Women Sevens head coach and current RPA D&I advisor and Rugby Sevens consultant.

· Nigel Boatswain – over 20 years at Apple, including time as the executive sponsor for ‘Black at Apple’, its D&I programme. Trustee at the Dame Kelly Holmes Trust and external project board for Sport England D&I focused 2021 Code for Sports Governance.

· Josh Brekenfeld – London Scottish board and executive committee member and director of global development at Aspen.

· Gill Burns MBE – ex-England Captain, Rugby World Cup winner and Lancashire RFU President 2019-21.

· Laura Kapo – player and chairwoman at Richmond Women.

'The group will provide insights to shape plans as well as challenge the RFU on its progress in delivering on its diversity and inclusion goals.

Former England player and D&I advisory group chair, Ugo Monye, said: “The RFU has made diversity and inclusion a core priority with clear plans being worked on that should make a substantive difference to the game.

“It’s really important that we get this right so that the anyone, from anywhere, feels rugby is a game for them. There is a wealth of experience in the advisory group and we’re all pleased to be able to contribute in driving an important agenda within the sport.”

Bill Sweeney, RFU CEO, said: “To be able to draw on the wealth of knowledge, experience and expertise in this group will be invaluable to us as we embark on plans to increase diversity in our sport and ensure it is open and inclusive to all. Consulting with others outside our organisation will provide us with different perspectives and help us to ensure that our plans are robust, meaningful, and result in tangible action.”

Within each of these four areas, the RFU is committed to better understanding where it is today compared to the wider population in terms of demographic, behavioural and attitudinal data and insight, establishing what it wants to change and how it will achieve it. Priorities include raising awareness, educating a wide range of stakeholders and delivering critical interventions alongside refreshed policies and guidance and ultimately monitoring progress, and adapting plans based on outcomes and updated insight. Currently the priority areas for action are ethnicity, gender, socio-economic status, sexual orientation and age. '


England and the clubs have some great players coming through but it could be even stronger and tapping into some working class environments etc can only be a good thing in my eyes for healthy grass roots participation and the number of supporters.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 07 Jun 2021, 10:23 am

Yes and no.

regardless whether Kapernicek (the American footballer) did it first, I think the problem is that people do associate that move with the BLM movement. A political movement that is not only about healing the race divide, but also very much linked with other ideas such as Defund the police etc. Even their cofounder has retired due focus of how she has used the charity donations....

I know many of my friends...educated professionals, who are anything but racist, do not like or support that movement. I have my suspicions on it aswell...

Do i want racial equality of course i do...do i think BLM is achieving that...im not sure.

Yes its bring out conversations etc...its been front page for the last year. Is it healing or fixing things....again, im not so sure...from what i can see on social media etc...i think its widening the divide. Thats something we dont want.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Jun 2021, 10:29 am

So now you know that it isn't aligned to it you're in full support GF. Let's not brush things under the carpet just because it makes some people uncomfortable.
If people are really against anti racism....well what does that make them?

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 07 Jun 2021, 10:29 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:What do people actually think of the Knee thing?

Honestly ?

I think it has done it's job now. I watched the England game yesterday, the booing was there to be heard, and it wasn't very nice, but I think people are now getting fed up of the black lives matter movement. That doesn't make them racist, just fed up. The murder of George Floyd was God awful, absolutely awful. But it just feels as though people are of the opinion that the black lives matter movement is not about the oppression of black people anymore, it's become something more, not from me, but it's the impression I get when I talk to some people regarding the topic.

I am of a mind, where the colour of a persons skin does not even register with me, I do not see it, I do not notice it, but that perhaps might just be me. I have been racially abused a lot during my life as a white Welsh man, I have been poked fun at, been called a sheep sh...er, I get called baldy as I have started to have a receding hair line as as I have gotten older, I have been poked fun at by certain members on here as I have been called a blustering old fool, even though I am only 44 years old FFS, I have even had my occupation ridiculed on this very forum.

So where does the racial abuse start/stop ? It isn't just about the colour of a persons skin. It's about everything. I am OK, I have thick skin, things do not bother me as much as some, the biggest irk I have, is equality, in all forms, even on here. I expect everybody to be treated the same, when I feel that is not happening, that's when I get my back up.

I am against oppression, I am against racism, I am against inequality. But all this is more than just skin colour or creed. It's everything. Most decent people in the world today would agree that you should support black lives matter, and I do, and taking the knee was a massive thing to happen, but for me I now think we need to move forward, lets take the next step.

Take the knee, or don't take the knee, that's up to the individual, would I carry on taking the knee if I was a professional sportsman ? Yes, I would. But what is everybody else doing ? What are we as everyday human beings doing ? That's what the crux of this is. When we see something that perhaps is not right, what do we do ? What ever we do will never be enough, but if we all do a little bit more, then together we can make a difference.

Anyway, thats just my view on taking the knee. I hope I havent offended anybody by what I have said, if I have, I can only apologise.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Jun 2021, 10:31 am

LD, given your first points there, have you read Southgate's reaction to the booing and an anti racist message?

The rest is good!

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Post by BamBam Mon 07 Jun 2021, 10:33 am

Being an educated professional doesn't make you any more or less likely to have racist thoughts. The non overt racism is a lot harder to fight than openly calling black people names

The players have said they are kneeling in support of the statement "Black Lives Matter" - not for the movement, not for defunding the police. Just in support of the statement Black Lives Matter.

What reasons do you have for thinking they are lying about that, and are actually secretly pushing a hard left wing political ideology? Are 20 something millionaires usually the most likely to be "Marxists" or whatever other buzzword the Daily Mail is using?


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Post by lostinwales Mon 07 Jun 2021, 10:35 am

Living in Wales was quite a revelation. A very small minority really didn't care for having English people living amongst them. Very easy for a kind of low level paranoia to develop where you start blaming things that go wrong on who you are rather than blind luck.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 07 Jun 2021, 10:38 am

LordDowlais wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:What do people actually think of the Knee thing?

Honestly ?

I think it has done it's job now. I watched the England game yesterday, the booing was there to be heard, and it wasn't very nice, but I think people are now getting fed up of the black lives matter movement. That doesn't make them racist, just fed up. The murder of George Floyd was God awful, absolutely awful. But it just feels as though people are of the opinion that the black lives matter movement is not about the oppression of black people anymore, it's become something more, not from me, but it's the impression I get when I talk to some people regarding the topic.

I am of a mind, where the colour of a persons skin does not even register with me, I do not see it, I do not notice it, but that perhaps might just be me. I have been racially abused a lot during my life as a white Welsh man, I have been poked fun at, been called a sheep sh...er, I get called baldy as I have started to have a receding hair line as as I have gotten older, I have been poked fun at by certain members on here as I have been called a blustering old fool, even though I am only 44 years old FFS, I have even had my occupation ridiculed on this very forum.

So where does the racial abuse start/stop ? It isn't just about the colour of a persons skin. It's about everything. I am OK, I have thick skin, things do not bother me as much as some, the biggest irk I have, is equality, in all forms, even on here. I expect everybody to be treated the same, when I feel that is not happening, that's when I get my back up.

I am against oppression, I am against racism, I am against inequality. But all this is more than just skin colour or creed. It's everything. Most decent people in the world today would agree that you should support black lives matter, and I do, and taking the knee was a massive thing to happen, but for me I now think we need to move forward, lets take the next step.

Take the knee, or don't take the knee, that's up to the individual, would I carry on taking the knee if I was a professional sportsman ? Yes, I would. But what is everybody else doing ? What are we as everyday human beings doing ? That's what the crux of this is. When we see something that perhaps is not right, what do we do ? What ever we do will never be enough, but if we all do a little bit more, then together we can make a difference.

Anyway, thats just my view on taking the knee. I hope I havent offended anybody by what I have said, if I have, I can only apologise.

As a 44 year old,...i think you have expressed perfectly how i feel also.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 07 Jun 2021, 10:41 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:LD, given your first points there, have you read Southgate's reaction to the booing and an anti racist message?

The rest is good!

TBH 7.5, I have heard what he said when I watched it last night, he played the situation perfectly, and I agree with him. But that does not really have anything to do with why people are just fed up with the Black lives matter movement. People I speak to regarding this subject give me their points of view, and whilst sometimes I do not agree with them, and sometimes I do, I just respect the fact that it's their point of view on the subject and move on.

But people out there, who are not racists by any means, just are a little fed up, and a little suspicious of the motives of the Black Lives Matter movement, and that's up to them. All I am doing is putting the impression I get from other people on this forum. It has done wonders at bringing the topic of black lives into the mainstream and it has been brilliant in getting people speaking about it, but what next ?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 07 Jun 2021, 10:43 am

BamBam wrote:Being an educated professional doesn't make you any more or less likely to have racist thoughts. The non overt racism is a lot harder to fight than openly calling black people names

The players have said they are kneeling in support of the statement "Black Lives Matter" - not for the movement, not for defunding the police. Just in support of the statement Black Lives Matter.

What reasons do you have for thinking they are lying about that, and are actually secretly pushing a hard left wing political ideology? Are 20 something millionaires usually the most likely to be "Marxists" or whatever other buzzword the Daily Mail is using?


I think the problem is...the BLM tag becomes blurred Bam Bam. You can say...its the statement, not the support of the Movement, but will will always associate them together.

As LD said above...its had a big statement over the last year...now time to detach itself from the political aspects, and really push on the actual racial divide itself, Be it with Kick Racism out or some other method.


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Post by BamBam Mon 07 Jun 2021, 10:48 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Being an educated professional doesn't make you any more or less likely to have racist thoughts. The non overt racism is a lot harder to fight than openly calling black people names

The players have said they are kneeling in support of the statement "Black Lives Matter" - not for the movement, not for defunding the police. Just in support of the statement Black Lives Matter.

What reasons do you have for thinking they are lying about that, and are actually secretly pushing a hard left wing political ideology? Are 20 something millionaires usually the most likely to be "Marxists" or whatever other buzzword the Daily Mail is using?


I think the problem is...the BLM tag becomes blurred Bam Bam. You can say...its the statement, not the support of the Movement, but will will always associate them together.

As LD said above...its had a big statement over the last year...now time to detach itself from the political aspects, and really push on the actual racial divide itself, Be it with Kick Racism out or some other method.


The bit in bold is a choice you've made. They've said a number of times that its the statement not the movement, so why boo it?

How do you think black players in the team feel when they hear boos against the words "Black Lives Matter" ?

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 07 Jun 2021, 10:49 am

lostinwales wrote:Living in Wales was quite a revelation. A very small minority really didn't care for having English people living amongst them. Very easy for a kind of low level paranoia to develop where you start blaming things that go wrong on who you are rather than blind luck.

I was abused for being Welsh last week when I was helping my daughter move house in Bristol. I was called a backward Welsh "add offensive word here". All because I did not agree with the landlord over something he tried charging me/my daughter for when she was handing over her tenancy. Needless to say, I am not going to give in, but that's life. OK

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Jun 2021, 10:51 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:LD, given your first points there, have you read Southgate's reaction to the booing and an anti racist message?

The rest is good!

TBH 7.5, I have heard what he said when I watched it last night, he played the situation perfectly, and I agree with him. But that does not really have anything to do with why people are just fed up with the Black lives matter movement. People I speak to regarding this subject give me their points of view, and whilst sometimes I do not agree with them, and sometimes I do, I just respect the fact that it's their point of view on the subject and move on.

But people out there, who are not racists by any means, just are a little fed up, and a little suspicious of the motives of the Black Lives Matter movement, and that's up to them. All I am doing is putting the impression I get from other people on this forum. It has done wonders at bringing the topic of black lives into the mainstream and it has been brilliant in getting people speaking about it, but what next ?

So now you know its nothing to do with that whatsoever its a bit of an aside to the kneeling. Let's face theres alot of people feeling a bit annoyed at being called a racist but the thing is a lot of them are. Indeed what next. I still think there are a lot of people who refuse to see that there's a problem at all.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Jun 2021, 10:53 am

Re politics in sport im sure you'll all join me in booing the minutes silence etc for the fallen in the autumn.

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Post by The Oracle Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:06 am

Booing the minute's silence happens. Booing the Haka too. Or booing someone's national anthem. People boo stuff. People suck.
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Post by BamBam Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:07 am

As for the cricketer, I can't believe there are people on this forum defending a then 18 year old for making comments including the N word.

An 18 year old is not a child

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:15 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Re politics in sport im sure you'll all join me in booing the minutes silence etc for the fallen in the autumn.

Why on earth would we do that ??????

Do you realise what you are saying ?

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Post by The Oracle Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:16 am

What should be the future for someone who does something like that at 18, BamBam? Just interested in your opinion? Is punishment and rehab through penalty (i.e. removal of liberties, criminal conviction, stripping of titles and position as with criminal charges) a possibility as it is with other offences? The reason I ask is that the impression I get from some is that doing/saying something offensive in the past means that the person should never be able to play pro sport again. I question whether that is the right course of action? Personally, I believe that we should all be allowed to recover from mistakes, learn, rehabilitate, own the mistakes and grow from them, and then go on to whatever life holds for us. if that means doing something bad as a youngster but then still being able to play pro sport then I'm OK with that. As long as there has been a period of apology, punishment, acceptance, remorse, rehab, etc., etc. Just my view. One of many on this topic I'm sure.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:19 am

BamBam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Being an educated professional doesn't make you any more or less likely to have racist thoughts. The non overt racism is a lot harder to fight than openly calling black people names

The players have said they are kneeling in support of the statement "Black Lives Matter" - not for the movement, not for defunding the police. Just in support of the statement Black Lives Matter.

What reasons do you have for thinking they are lying about that, and are actually secretly pushing a hard left wing political ideology? Are 20 something millionaires usually the most likely to be "Marxists" or whatever other buzzword the Daily Mail is using?


I think the problem is...the BLM tag becomes blurred Bam Bam. You can say...its the statement, not the support of the Movement, but will will always associate them together.

As LD said above...its had a big statement over the last year...now time to detach itself from the political aspects, and really push on the actual racial divide itself, Be it with Kick Racism out or some other method.


The bit in bold is a choice you've made. They've said a number of times that its the statement not the movement, so why boo it?

How do you think black players in the team feel when they hear boos against the words "Black Lives Matter" ?

Its not just the choice IVE made...its clearly one that many feel now.

The thing for me...did they boo when a black player scored v Austria...? No they cheered him. Thats a statement also.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:21 am

BamBam wrote:As for the cricketer, I can't believe there are people on this forum defending a then 18 year old for making comments including the N word.

An 18 year old is not a child

Depends. I'd be a lot more concerned if he'd sent those tweets last week. People do have experiences post 18 that help them grow up.

It is right and proper that there is an investigation and some consequences but if he's got over all that it should not get in the way of his career.

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Post by BamBam Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:25 am

The Oracle wrote:What should be the future for someone who does something like that at 18, BamBam?  Just interested in your opinion? Is punishment and rehab through penalty (i.e. removal of liberties, criminal conviction, stripping of titles and position as with criminal charges) a possibility as it is with other offences?  The reason I ask is that the impression I get from some is that doing/saying something offensive in the past means that the person should never be able to play pro sport again.  I question whether that is the right course of action?  Personally, I believe that we should all be allowed to recover from mistakes, learn, rehabilitate, own the mistakes and grow from them, and then go on to whatever life holds for us.  if that means doing something bad as a youngster but then still being able to play pro sport then I'm OK with that.  As long as there has been a period of apology, punishment, acceptance, remorse, rehab, etc., etc.  Just my view.  One of many on this topic I'm sure.

I definitely don't think he should be banned for life etc. I'm more bothered that seem to think he shouldn't have had to apologise for "humour" or that he was young so there should be no punishment at all, when he was using the N word, making jokes about r4pe etc - the fact that a current government minister has come out with the same position this morning is sadly very unsurprising to me

I think the England management have handled it well - a public apology and missing the next test feels entirely proportionate to me

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:29 am

Has anyone on here defended Ollie Robinson ?

I havent seen it. But he was a kid when he did it, yes, I still see people of 18 as being kids, they have not had proper life experience, and still think they are man sausage of the walk.

We have all done things in our teens, that we did not give one thought about what would happen in the next decade as a result.

Yes he should be given a rollicking for it, but it should not stop him playing cricket FFS. I have seen films from that era when black people were calling each other the N word.

Sorry if this is misquoted, but I can only see what people quote BamBam.

If Ollie Robinson shows remorse and is honest about it, he should not be made an example of. Had he said it a few weeks ago, then yes.


Last edited by LordDowlais on Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by The Oracle Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:29 am

BamBam wrote:
The Oracle wrote:What should be the future for someone who does something like that at 18, BamBam?  Just interested in your opinion? Is punishment and rehab through penalty (i.e. removal of liberties, criminal conviction, stripping of titles and position as with criminal charges) a possibility as it is with other offences?  The reason I ask is that the impression I get from some is that doing/saying something offensive in the past means that the person should never be able to play pro sport again.  I question whether that is the right course of action?  Personally, I believe that we should all be allowed to recover from mistakes, learn, rehabilitate, own the mistakes and grow from them, and then go on to whatever life holds for us.  if that means doing something bad as a youngster but then still being able to play pro sport then I'm OK with that.  As long as there has been a period of apology, punishment, acceptance, remorse, rehab, etc., etc.  Just my view.  One of many on this topic I'm sure.

I definitely don't think he should be banned for life etc. I'm more bothered that seem to think he shouldn't have had to apologise for "humour" or that he was young so there should be no punishment at all, when he was using the N word, making jokes about r4pe etc - the fact that a current government minister has come out with the same position this morning is sadly very unsurprising to me

I think the England management have handled it well - a public apology and missing the next test feels entirely proportionate to me

I haven't been following it really so I don't know the ins and outs. But I wholeheartedly agree that what he's done is wrong and there should be some consequence. I'm surprised that people think he shouldn't have to apolgise.
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:32 am

He should definitely apologise, and he should definitely explain himself, if only to set an example to todays kids that what he did was wrong.

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Post by BamBam Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:32 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/57383097

Here's the government's position - its fairly obvious that they are playing to the same people who think booing the England football team for taking the knee is the right thing to do

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Post by Duty281 Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:35 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:regardless whether Kapernicek (the American footballer) did it first, I think the problem is that people do associate that move with the BLM movement.

That's the key point. If the England football team switched to another gesture, whatever that may be, there wouldn't be any booing. A similar thing happened to Millwall - their fans booed the knee, so Millwall switched the gesture (linking arms and holding up an anti-racism banner I think) and there was universal applause at their ground.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:42 am

Duty281 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:regardless whether Kapernicek (the American footballer) did it first, I think the problem is that people do associate that move with the BLM movement.

That's the key point. If the England football team switched to another gesture, whatever that may be, there wouldn't be any booing. A similar thing happened to Millwall - their fans booed the knee, so Millwall switched the gesture (linking arms and holding up an anti-racism banner I think) and there was universal applause at their ground.

Yes. This.

I think the fight against racism now needs to move away from BLM, and onto something else, a lot of people think the movement is going in a different direction. Whether me or anyone else thinks differently, the fact that there is people who do, would suggest we take the fight onto another platform. But the fight still needs to go on.

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Post by BamBam Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:45 am

When there were public marches of protest last summer, people thought they should protest in a less disruptive manner.

When players take the knee silently for 5 seconds, people think their movement is going in the wrong direction


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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:45 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Re politics in sport im sure you'll all join me in booing the minutes silence etc for the fallen in the autumn.

Why on earth would we do that ??????

Do you realise what you are saying ?

Not saying you would in particular just reading the fact that people don't like politics in sport. The guys who boo Northern Irish lads who don't wear poppies etc. Just seen a Conservative MP complain about it. I'm sure they'll change their minds on that though, as thats 'good' politics where we can flag wave rather than the bad politics where we have to look at ourselves in a potentially negative light.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Jun 2021, 11:57 am

I love the fact that people are happy to believe that its Karl Marxs ideas the Millwall fans don't like and nothing to do with their long and consistent racism!

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:00 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Re politics in sport im sure you'll all join me in booing the minutes silence etc for the fallen in the autumn.

Why on earth would we do that ??????

Do you realise what you are saying ?

Not saying you would in particular just reading the fact that people don't like politics in sport. The guys who boo Northern Irish lads who don't wear poppies etc. Just seen a Conservative MP complain about it. I'm sure they'll change their minds on that though, as thats 'good' politics where we can flag wave rather than the bad politics where we have to look at ourselves in a potentially negative light.

I do not think that the choice of a situation where brave men and women made the absolute sacrifice to stand up against the ideals that we are all against was a good choice as an example to make your point.

Remembrance day is a poignant time to remember those who have died in the face of extremism and nazism.

You should be ashamed of yourself for even jesting it.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:00 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I love the fact that people are happy to believe that its Karl Marxs ideas the Millwall fans don't like and nothing to do with their long and consistent racism!

Who mentioned Marx? I'm simply saying what happened - some of their fans booed a gesture related to the BLM organisation; none of their fans booed an anti-racism gesture that was unrelated to the BLM organisation.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:04 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Re politics in sport im sure you'll all join me in booing the minutes silence etc for the fallen in the autumn.

Why on earth would we do that ??????

Do you realise what you are saying ?

Not saying you would in particular just reading the fact that people don't like politics in sport. The guys who boo Northern Irish lads who don't wear poppies etc. Just seen a Conservative MP complain about it. I'm sure they'll change their minds on that though, as thats 'good' politics where we can flag wave rather than the bad politics where we have to look at ourselves in a potentially negative light.

I do not think that the choice of a situation where brave men and women made the absolute sacrifice to stand up against the ideals that we are all against was a good choice as an example to make your point.

Remembrance day is a poignant time to remember those who have died in the face of extremism and nazism.

You should be ashamed of yourself for even jesting it.

See. Some politics is good politics.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:05 pm

Duty281 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I love the fact that people are happy to believe that its Karl Marxs ideas the Millwall fans don't like and nothing to do with their long and consistent racism!

Who mentioned Marx? I'm simply saying what happened - some of their fans booed a gesture related to the BLM organisation; none of their fans booed an anti-racism gesture that was unrelated to the BLM organisation.

Yeah right. Well now we all know it isn't linked to BLM and is simply an antinracism stance you'll all condemn the next set of prats who boo it. All good.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Re politics in sport im sure you'll all join me in booing the minutes silence etc for the fallen in the autumn.

Why on earth would we do that ??????

Do you realise what you are saying ?

Not saying you would in particular just reading the fact that people don't like politics in sport. The guys who boo Northern Irish lads who don't wear poppies etc. Just seen a Conservative MP complain about it. I'm sure they'll change their minds on that though, as thats 'good' politics where we can flag wave rather than the bad politics where we have to look at ourselves in a potentially negative light.

I do not think that the choice of a situation where brave men and women made the absolute sacrifice to stand up against the ideals that we are all against was a good choice as an example to make your point.

Remembrance day is a poignant time to remember those who have died in the face of extremism and nazism.

You should be ashamed of yourself for even jesting it.

See. Some politics is good politics.

7.5 I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you actually do not realise what you are saying here and I will just agree to disagree with you to save myself from bother.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:11 pm

No it's ok LD. I know exactly the point I've made. Tory MP and a fair few of the guys and gals booing have stated its not that they're racist, its just that politics should be kept separate. They won't be booing the political symbols in November indeed they will be going after anyone not wearing a poppy etc etc. The overall point to be clear again, they're decrying politics in sport in relation to kneeling as they want to shut down anything that calls for equality in race.

'Good' vs 'bad' politics.

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Post by BamBam Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:17 pm

Apparently Chelsea fans drew graffiti on the base of the Winston Churchill statue while celebrating their victory.

What are the chances that some of those same fans were part of the statue defenders mob last year? Wonder if Oliver Dowden has made any comments on this subject

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:19 pm

7.5, you are comparing a movement that people think is moving away from the fight against racism, to remembering people who gave their lives in the fight against racism, and not only are you admitting that you know what you are doing, you are actually now going with it, on a public forum.

You have then more or less gone on to suggest that people who do not agree to taking the knee are racist, this is beggars belief and I would stop now if I were you before you get yourself into hot water.

You cannot compare people staying silent to remember people who gave their lives for freedom, equality, and anti racism, to people booing a gesture that is attached to a movement that they think does not stand for the fight against same fundamentals anymore.

This is a whole new low. Seriously, I just do not know what to say.

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Post by BamBam Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:23 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
BamBam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Being an educated professional doesn't make you any more or less likely to have racist thoughts. The non overt racism is a lot harder to fight than openly calling black people names

The players have said they are kneeling in support of the statement "Black Lives Matter" - not for the movement, not for defunding the police. Just in support of the statement Black Lives Matter.

What reasons do you have for thinking they are lying about that, and are actually secretly pushing a hard left wing political ideology? Are 20 something millionaires usually the most likely to be "Marxists" or whatever other buzzword the Daily Mail is using?

I think the problem is...the BLM tag becomes blurred Bam Bam. You can say...its the statement, not the support of the Movement, but will will always associate them together.

As LD said above...its had a big statement over the last year...now time to detach itself from the political aspects, and really push on the actual racial divide itself, Be it with Kick Racism out or some other method.

The bit in bold is a choice you've made. They've said a number of times that its the statement not the movement, so why boo it?

How do you think black players in the team feel when they hear boos against the words "Black Lives Matter" ?

Its not just the choice IVE made...its clearly one that many feel now.

The thing for me...did they boo when a black player scored v Austria...? No they cheered him. Thats a statement also.

Missed this - I'm not saying you in particular, I mean anyone who feels that way has chosen to do so, given the players and manager have repeatedly said its not the case.

On your second point - Not booing when a player scores for your team is hardly worthy of praise is it? I mean I'm glad we've moved on from people saying they refuse to support black England players, but surely the act of celebrating a goal for your team is not a statement of any sort?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:30 pm

LordDowlais wrote:7.5, you are comparing a movement that people think is moving away from the fight against racism, to remembering people who gave their lives in the fight against racism, and not only are you admitting that you know what you are doing, you are actually now going with it, on a public forum.

You have then more or less gone on to suggest that people who do not agree to taking the knee are racist, this is beggars belief and I would stop now if I were you before you get yourself into hot water.

You cannot compare people staying silent to remember people who gave their lives for freedom, equality, and anti racism, to people booing a gesture that is attached to a movement that they think does not stand for the fight against same fundamentals anymore.

This is a whole new low. Seriously, I just do not know what to say.

I'm comparing 2 instances of politics and sport. One accepted and one less so. I say accepted, obviously there are those who refuse to support, like James McClean.

I'm not too sure how I'd get into hot water given the the wider point of the thread is equality around race, helping people into rugby and overall helping the England team pick up more gems.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:41 pm

BamBam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
BamBam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Being an educated professional doesn't make you any more or less likely to have racist thoughts. The non overt racism is a lot harder to fight than openly calling black people names

The players have said they are kneeling in support of the statement "Black Lives Matter" - not for the movement, not for defunding the police. Just in support of the statement Black Lives Matter.

What reasons do you have for thinking they are lying about that, and are actually secretly pushing a hard left wing political ideology? Are 20 something millionaires usually the most likely to be "Marxists" or whatever other buzzword the Daily Mail is using?

I think the problem is...the BLM tag becomes blurred Bam Bam. You can say...its the statement, not the support of the Movement, but will will always associate them together.

As LD said above...its had a big statement over the last year...now time to detach itself from the political aspects, and really push on the actual racial divide itself, Be it with Kick Racism out or some other method.

The bit in bold is a choice you've made. They've said a number of times that its the statement not the movement, so why boo it?

How do you think black players in the team feel when they hear boos against the words "Black Lives Matter" ?

Its not just the choice IVE made...its clearly one that many feel now.

The thing for me...did they boo when a black player scored v Austria...? No they cheered him. Thats a statement also.

Missed this - I'm not saying you in particular, I mean anyone who feels that way has chosen to do so, given the players and manager have repeatedly said its not the case.

On your second point - Not booing when a player scores for your team is hardly worthy of praise is it? I mean I'm glad we've moved on from people saying they refuse to support black England players, but surely the act of celebrating a goal for your team is not a statement of any sort?

People see the BLM as a political, and incredibly anti society movement (the defund the police agenda is a huge issue for me). No matter how you dress it up and make statements to the contrary, they are performing a movement (taking the knee) that has become a signature of BLM. Clearly that is not not sitting well with many people now...myself included.

As Duty and LD mentioned above, change the gesture, to distance themselves from the BLM but continue the push for racial equality and they will have the support of the majority of people.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:46 pm

They already have the support of the majority. From the guardian by Southgate.

“It’s not something on behalf of our black players I wanted to hear because it feels as though it’s a criticism of them. I think we have got a situation where some people seem to think it’s a political stand that they don’t agree with. That’s not the reason the players are doing it. We’re supporting each other. I was pleased that was drowned out by the majority of the crowd.


“We can’t deny the fact that it happened. I think the most important thing for our players to know is all their teammates and all the staff are very supportive. I think the majority of people understand it. I think some people aren’t quite understanding the message. I suppose we’re seeing that across a number of football grounds at the moment.”

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:They already have the support of the majority. From the guardian by Southgate.

“It’s not something on behalf of our black players I wanted to hear because it feels as though it’s a criticism of them. I think we have got a situation where some people seem to think it’s a political stand that they don’t agree with. That’s not the reason the players are doing it. We’re supporting each other. I was pleased that was drowned out by the majority of the crowd.


“We can’t deny the fact that it happened. I think the most important thing for our players to know is all their teammates and all the staff are very supportive. I think the majority of people understand it. I think some people aren’t quite understanding the message. I suppose we’re seeing that across a number of football grounds at the moment.”

Judging by social media, i would dispute that. i genuinely feel they are on a collision course with the fans that can be avoided.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:55 pm

Small amount of booing drowned out by clapping at the games. Guess it depends on which social media you follow though. Given the clear message about BLM by Southgate I would think that anyone doing the booing knows that they are not protesting against BLM and question what message its giving going forwards into the Euros.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:56 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Small amount of booing drowned out by clapping at the games. Guess it depends on which social media you follow though. Given the clear message about BLM by Southgate I would think that anyone doing the booing knows that they are not protesting against BLM and question what message its giving going forwards into the Euros.

Considering Southgate said this AFTER the booing, you are making a massive leap.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 07 Jun 2021, 12:59 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Small amount of booing drowned out by clapping at the games. Guess it depends on which social media you follow though. Given the clear message about BLM by Southgate I would think that anyone doing the booing knows that they are not protesting against BLM and question what message its giving going forwards into the Euros.

Considering Southgate said this AFTER the booing, you are making a massive leap.

After the first game yes. Not the second and of course I added about the Euros as the England players will continue to kneel.

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Post by BamBam Mon 07 Jun 2021, 1:34 pm

You're just rattling off soundbites GF. Anti Society / Defund the police etc. What does "a collision course with the fans" actually mean? Why would the England team as an organisation not want to "collide" with racists? Sounds like anti racism to me

No one can reasonably argue with what BLM represents at its core, so all the focus is being put on them being Marxist, or defunding the police etc, as a way to discredit the core principle that Black Lives Matter. Sadly too many people have bought into it, either willingly as they too want to discredit the protest, or unwittingly swept up in the furore

Meanwhile a government that actually has "defunded the police" over the last 12 years wants to continue to point at the BLM / any other bogeyman to distract the masses while robbing us all blind

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 07 Jun 2021, 2:11 pm

BamBam wrote:You're just rattling off soundbites GF. Anti Society / Defund the police etc. What does "a collision course with the fans" actually mean? Why would the England team as an organisation not want to "collide" with racists? Sounds like anti racism to me

No one can reasonably argue with what BLM represents at its core, so all the focus is being put on them being Marxist, or defunding the police etc, as a way to discredit the core principle that Black Lives Matter. Sadly too many people have bought into it, either willingly as they too want to discredit the protest, or unwittingly swept up in the furore

Meanwhile a government that actually has "defunded the police" over the last 12 years wants to continue to point at the BLM / any other bogeyman to distract the masses while robbing us all blind

Really?

No bother...ill just end this here now as we're going round in circles.

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Post by BamBam Mon 07 Jun 2021, 2:18 pm

Great, I look forward to seeing you denounce anyone who boos acts of anti racism going forwards then thumbsup

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 07 Jun 2021, 2:22 pm

Not if its the knee Wink

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 07 Jun 2021, 2:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Small amount of booing drowned out by clapping at the games. Guess it depends on which social media you follow though. Given the clear message about BLM by Southgate I would think that anyone doing the booing knows that they are not protesting against BLM and question what message its giving going forwards into the Euros.

Considering Southgate said this AFTER the booing, you are making a massive leap.

After the first game yes. Not the second and of course I added about the Euros as the England players will continue to kneel.

However way you try and spin it. Taking the knee does not represent against racism anymore either, it represents and always has represented BLM and the fight against racism, but that is now getting overtaken. It is meant to co-align with the horrid act of the policeman putting his knee on the neck of George Floyd. Taking the knee will always be associated with supporting BLM. That is fine, there is nothing wrong with this, but some people will not support BLM.

I will spin this, why do you think people should take the knee ?

England fans were not booing when the players were wearing kick it out T shirts. Every person on here is against racism, nothing they have said will leave me to believe otherwise, for you to say they are being racist because they are against taking the knee is very, very disrespectful.

Do I support it ? Yes of course I do. Look at the publicity we had when Sarah Everard was murdered a few weeks ago, it was everywhere, little known to anyone else two black people were found murdered in London at the same time, in total about 41 people have been murdered in London in 2021, some old, some Asian, some black. It sickens me that these atrocities take place in our society. But nothing is said about the ethnic minority murders. It sickens me, because these lives do matter. So yes, I am behind BLM. So for that I would take the knee, I would also take the knee to help against racism.

What I would support more though, is an anti racism movement who were against atrocities to everyone, why aren't we seeing more of this ?

But why I am trying to explain this to somebody who would boo a minutes silence for our fallen hero's just to get a point across is beyond me.

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