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RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 20 Apr 2021, 10:19 am

First topic message reminder :

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/rfu-diversity-and-inclusion-advisory-group-formed

Think this probably deserves it's own topic given it's something a few people have banged on about for years. Finally the RFU have given the go ahead to have a look at who is perhaps not able or even wanting to play the game. Although it's changed ever so slightly there is still the overwhelming thought that Rugby Union in England is about the rich, posh kids who in turn are more likely to be white. How many people miss out on rugby and vice versa the talent lost to clubs because they happen to go to the wrong school etc. It's changed slightly with some league or more pre-league converts e.g. Ford and Farrell, Burrell, Tomkins and some more northern voices from league strongholds. Would be great to see a conveyor belt of some of that talent and guys like Sinckler who only picked up rugby later being given more options earlier.

Ugo Monye has been picked as the chair with the remaining members made up as so:

Group members also include:

· Sue Anstiss MBE – CEO of Fearless Women, trustee of the Women’s Sport Trust and co-founder of the Women’s Sport Collective.

· James Bailey – ex-England Sevens player, England Women Sevens head coach and current RPA D&I advisor and Rugby Sevens consultant.

· Nigel Boatswain – over 20 years at Apple, including time as the executive sponsor for ‘Black at Apple’, its D&I programme. Trustee at the Dame Kelly Holmes Trust and external project board for Sport England D&I focused 2021 Code for Sports Governance.

· Josh Brekenfeld – London Scottish board and executive committee member and director of global development at Aspen.

· Gill Burns MBE – ex-England Captain, Rugby World Cup winner and Lancashire RFU President 2019-21.

· Laura Kapo – player and chairwoman at Richmond Women.

'The group will provide insights to shape plans as well as challenge the RFU on its progress in delivering on its diversity and inclusion goals.

Former England player and D&I advisory group chair, Ugo Monye, said: “The RFU has made diversity and inclusion a core priority with clear plans being worked on that should make a substantive difference to the game.

“It’s really important that we get this right so that the anyone, from anywhere, feels rugby is a game for them. There is a wealth of experience in the advisory group and we’re all pleased to be able to contribute in driving an important agenda within the sport.”

Bill Sweeney, RFU CEO, said: “To be able to draw on the wealth of knowledge, experience and expertise in this group will be invaluable to us as we embark on plans to increase diversity in our sport and ensure it is open and inclusive to all. Consulting with others outside our organisation will provide us with different perspectives and help us to ensure that our plans are robust, meaningful, and result in tangible action.”

Within each of these four areas, the RFU is committed to better understanding where it is today compared to the wider population in terms of demographic, behavioural and attitudinal data and insight, establishing what it wants to change and how it will achieve it. Priorities include raising awareness, educating a wide range of stakeholders and delivering critical interventions alongside refreshed policies and guidance and ultimately monitoring progress, and adapting plans based on outcomes and updated insight. Currently the priority areas for action are ethnicity, gender, socio-economic status, sexual orientation and age. '


England and the clubs have some great players coming through but it could be even stronger and tapping into some working class environments etc can only be a good thing in my eyes for healthy grass roots participation and the number of supporters.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Jun 2021, 12:49 pm

I think a better question you could have posed is about Nic Anelka and quenelle. An 'inverted nazi salute' that allows (to some) plausible deniability. Would using an act used by far right groups that is not as well known been suitable or challenged. Certainly has more credence than being annoyed at BLM. Anelka and the guy who invented it denied it was racist and merely anti establishment. Bit like GB News.

More a comparison that could be made as you could then question whether I would believe Anelka, I don't then say why I do believe England and Southgate. I see no reason that Southgate should lie. Kneeling isn't tied to a history of killing jews, mentally unwell people, travellors, romas, gyspeys, homosexuals. I guess the question back would then be does anyone think Southgate is lying and why?

Anyway for me a better question as a Nazi salute is too well know, just not realistic at all.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Jun 2021, 12:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think a better question you could have posed is about Nic Anelka and quenelle. An 'inverted nazi salute' that allows (to some) plausible deniability. Would using an act used by far right groups that is not as well known been suitable or challenged. Certainly has more credence than being annoyed at BLM. Anelka and the guy who invented it denied it was racist and merely anti establishment. Bit like GB News.

More a comparison that could be made as you could then question whether I would believe Anelka, I don't then say why I do believe England and Southgate. I see no reason that Southgate should lie. Kneeling isn't tied to a history of killing jews, mentally unwell people, travellors, romas, gyspeys, homosexuals. I guess the question back would then be does anyone think Southgate is lying and why?

Anyway for me a better question as a Nazi salute is too well know, just not realistic at all.

So you will not answer then. OK as long as we know where you stand.

typical. Rolling Eyes

I think it's time to bow out of this now, as you are not worth the bother anymore.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Jun 2021, 12:51 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Not a wage I would describe to make you rich. And to be clear the point above being made by the prime minister was about being able to afford private tuition, unlikely on a nurses wage. Perhaps those nurses should just work harder? Do you think it would then be possible for them to become rich? Or do you think there are numerous things in the way to that? Say I'm a nurse on a band 5 salary (agenda for change scale); I'm clearly not working as hard as I can in your opinion, whats my opition to get more money? And bear in mind that there are thousands of other Band 5s who presumably in your eyes could work harder. Whats their best way to the riches?

Firstly Boris Johnson never said work harder and you will be rich. Secondly Nurses salaries do not start at band 5, that band is where the domestics are.

He defended well to do people who can afford private tuition.

He said you can pay for private tuition if you work harder, I have done this for my daughters, it cost me £15 an hour, for one hour, once a week, to send my daughters to a maths tutor. I wanted them to be in the best place before they went to comprehensive school.

I was able to do this because of the hard work I put in. It's the reason why my staff can do it as well. My staff all work very hard, and they get a good wage, and it is because of the struggles I put in along with my farther and brother many years ago to get where we are now, and I will not apologise for it.

And the inference there LD is that if you can't you're not working hard enough. He's a canny politician.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Jun 2021, 12:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I think a better question you could have posed is about Nic Anelka and quenelle. An 'inverted nazi salute' that allows (to some) plausible deniability. Would using an act used by far right groups that is not as well known been suitable or challenged. Certainly has more credence than being annoyed at BLM. Anelka and the guy who invented it denied it was racist and merely anti establishment. Bit like GB News.

More a comparison that could be made as you could then question whether I would believe Anelka, I don't then say why I do believe England and Southgate. I see no reason that Southgate should lie. Kneeling isn't tied to a history of killing jews, mentally unwell people, travellors, romas, gyspeys, homosexuals. I guess the question back would then be does anyone think Southgate is lying and why?

Anyway for me a better question as a Nazi salute is too well know, just not realistic at all.

So you will not answer then. OK as long as we know where you stand.

typical. Rolling Eyes

I think it's time to bow out of this now, as you are not worth the bother anymore.

Its a poor question you posed as the Nazi salute is just too well known. Southgate and the team want to make a statement against racism, why on earth would they do a Nazi salute. Too far fetched. So you've got my answer, I can't see why they would do that and I couldn't see the players or anyone really saying well done.

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 14 Jun 2021, 12:53 pm

The Oracle wrote:What do people think about players such as Wilfried Zaha who now does not want to take the knee any more?  He said it's degrading.  He's a black footballer.  Brentford FC have stopped as they feel they are being used as puppets.  Les Ferdinand, director at QPR, has said they've stopped doing it as the meaning has been lost and it's 'now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge'.

I think we should respect their opinions. In the same way, while I'm happy wearing a poppy for Remembrance Day, I respect the opinion of those who choose not to, because they feel the symbol has become cheapened, and more of a fashion statement for some. I don't know exactly what Ferdinand thinks but if someone feels a stance or symbol has become perfomative, rather than meaningful, then you can understand why they would be reluctant to continue.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Jun 2021, 12:55 pm

The Oracle wrote:What do people think about players such as Wilfried Zaha who now does not want to take the knee any more?  He said it's degrading.  He's a black footballer.  Brentford FC have stopped as they feel they are being used as puppets.  Les Ferdinand, director at QPR, has said they've stopped doing it as the meaning has been lost and it's 'now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge'.

Similar to Barnes, Similar to Courtney Lawes. Even if you're the same race as someone else it doesn't mean that you share thoughts feelings and outlooks on things.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Jun 2021, 12:55 pm

OK one last time then.

So you wouldn't support it because it also stands for something else. OK.

So why can't you accept that people will not support taking the knee, as it stands for something else ?

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Jun 2021, 12:57 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
The Oracle wrote:What do people think about players such as Wilfried Zaha who now does not want to take the knee any more?  He said it's degrading.  He's a black footballer.  Brentford FC have stopped as they feel they are being used as puppets.  Les Ferdinand, director at QPR, has said they've stopped doing it as the meaning has been lost and it's 'now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge'.

I think we should respect their opinions. In the same way, while I'm happy wearing a poppy for Remembrance Day, I respect the opinion of those who choose not to, because they feel the symbol has become cheapened, and more of a fashion statement for some. I don't know exactly what Ferdinand thinks but if someone feels a stance or symbol has become perfomative, rather than meaningful, then you can understand why they would be reluctant to continue.


Exactly.

So not everyone who does not support taking the knee are racists. Halleluiah.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Jun 2021, 1:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:OK one last time then.

So you wouldn't support it because it also stands for something else. OK.

So why can't you accept that people will not support taking the knee, as it stands for something else ?

Because it's different LD. The Nazi salute is a very famous salute linked with a right wing government who committed genocide at the worst end and systematic racism on a number of degrees through their society. I said I don't think I could see reasoning that could possibly reflect their stance of anti racism. Just can't see it. Why would a Nazi salute be seen as anti racist?

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Post by BamBam Mon 14 Jun 2021, 1:08 pm

I went to the game yesterday. The lads sat near where I was who booed the knee also booed the Croatian national anthem, added No Surrender to God save the Queen and spent plenty of time on the concourse and during the game singing 10 German Bombers. Most of the rest of the time was spent calling Modric a Kumquat!

Are these lads really making an anti political point or do they just see it as an excuse to be offensive to others?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Jun 2021, 1:10 pm

Sorry you had to be there in a way to go through that Bam. On a brighter point hope the football and being back in the stadium was a good overall thing.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Jun 2021, 1:15 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:OK one last time then.

So you wouldn't support it because it also stands for something else. OK.

So why can't you accept that people will not support taking the knee, as it stands for something else ?

Because it's different LD. The Nazi salute is a very famous salute linked with a right wing government who committed genocide at the worst end and systematic racism on a number of degrees through their society. I said I don't think I could see reasoning that could possibly reflect their stance of anti racism. Just can't see it. Why would a Nazi salute be seen as anti racist?

Because Gareth Southgate said it was before hand.

I am just talking hypothetically.

It does not really matter what the "thing" is. You just need to take on board why some people might not support it and not judge every person who disagrees with you.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Jun 2021, 1:21 pm

You would have to assume that Southgate hadn't grown up in society, not been involved in any culture etc. Too far fetched as I said. Historically kneeling has been a symbol of the exact opposite of an organisation wanting to kill people they didn't see as fully human. It's your hypothetical of course which is why I've asked you why and how anyone could see a Nazi salute as anti racism. The fact is you won't be able to so it's not comparable.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 14 Jun 2021, 1:38 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You would have to assume that Southgate hadn't grown up in society, not been involved in any culture etc. Too far fetched as I said. Historically kneeling has been a symbol of the exact opposite of an organisation wanting to kill people they didn't see as fully human. It's your hypothetical of course which is why I've asked you why and how anyone could see a Nazi salute as anti racism. The fact is you won't be able to so it's not comparable.


I ask this in all seriousness. What is wrong with you ?

That's it. I think I might have to put you back onto ignore. I am certainly done with this conversation. Hes all yours guys. OK

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Jun 2021, 1:48 pm

Nothing wrong with me as far as I know. You're posed a hypothetical question which is too difficult to answer as it presumes no knowledge of the Nazis. If you don't assume that then you need to be able to answer how a Nazi salute could be seen as anti racism with knowledge of the 1930s and 40s. I've answered as best I can.

Bit more from Viv Anderson from my local rag the Evening Gazette. He was the first black player to play for England in a full international:

Asked his thoughts on the fans who boo, Anderson told PA Sport: “The more people stand up and applaud, the more they drown them out and hopefully the message will get across to these people – it’s just not acceptable in 2021.

“You would think people getting back into stadiums and watching live sport again, they would jump at the chance but it turns out they want to boo their own players for taking the knee – I just find it bizarre to say the least.

“They should be in there trying to encourage the players to put in a good performance and encourage them to win the football match they have been starved of for many, many months. I just don’t understand it.

"My view is taking the knee is a powerful statement. It’s a big tournament and people will be watching it all over the world and if it’s one person who says, ‘why are they taking the knee?’ and then find out the real reasons why they are doing that, hopefully it will help other people in the future.

“Hopefully they educate a few more people and they take it on board what they’re trying to achieve.”

As well as hoping taking the knee will help educate people this summer, Anderson is also a keen advocate of getting into schools to educate children to tackle racism long-term.

He continued: “It’s very difficult to educate a 65-year-old man who has been going to football for how many years.

“It’s in the schools, education in schools, talking about people who have come through the ranks and done really well – John Barnes is a great example.

“They should be telling stories like this in schools and educating children, our next generation.”


Similar to others then, its not the only thing that needs doing but clearly can do a lot of good.

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Post by BamBam Mon 14 Jun 2021, 2:20 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sorry you had to be there in a way to go through that Bam. On a brighter point hope the football and being back in the stadium was a good overall thing.

Thanks, it was a great day regardless, definitely good to get back to live events!

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Post by The Oracle Mon 14 Jun 2021, 3:49 pm

BamBam wrote:I went to the game yesterday. The lads sat near where I was who booed the knee also booed the Croatian national anthem, added No Surrender to God save the Queen and spent plenty of time on the concourse and during the game singing 10 German Bombers. Most of the rest of the time was spent calling Modric a Kumquat!

Are these lads really making an anti political point or do they just see it as an excuse to be offensive to others?

You know, I’ve always felt that the vast majority of abuse you see is not real racism. I doubt you’d have that many true racists in society. For me it is exactly as you say above, people trying to be offensive. They’re trying to get to a sports person in order to win a competitive advantage for their team. But away from that scenario and environment I doubt that there are as many racists as people make out. And it’s not just race either, as fans will use appearance, hair/lack of hair, weight, height (tall or short), etc. to shout abuse in the hope they they ‘get to’ the person and put them off their game. Even player to player too. One player calling another player a ‘black’ something, or a ‘fat’ something’, or a ‘lanky’ something, or an ‘ugly’ something, or a ‘bald’ something, etc., etc. I doubt they are really racist or anti-fat or have a real issue with bald people. But it’s the ‘thing’ they know they can use against the other person. The Marler incident with Samson Lee and calling him gypsy boy. I doubt Marler has a real issue with the gypsy travelling community. But it was an ‘identifyer’ or a characteristic that Marler pinpointed that made Samson Lee different and which he attempted to use to wind him up. Could have used fat boy too. If he was black perhaps he would have used ‘black boy’ or something to rile the player up. But no matter how unsavoury, I doubt he is genuinely racist (or whatever the correct term is) in his real-world views on gypsy folk. Doesn’t excuse it of course.
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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 14 Jun 2021, 7:14 pm

The Oracle wrote:...You know, I’ve always felt that the vast majority of abuse you see is not real racism.  I doubt you’d have that many true racists in society.  For me it is exactly as you say above, people trying to be offensive.  They’re trying to get to a sports person in order to win a competitive advantage for their team...

I've sometimes come across people who seem to be incredibly rude. Their friends would defend them, saying "He's not rude, just shy". I'd be left wondering how you are suppose to tell the difference between someone who is rude because he is rude, and someone who is rude, because he is shy. There may be a theoretical difference, it's just that, from a practical point of view, I get along better in life by treating them as if they are the same.

It's not a bad rule to use with racism as well.

People sometimes appear to reject the idea of racism being prevalent in society because it makes them personally complicit. In short, a bad person. That seems the wrong way round to view the issue. I think I'm a good person (anger management issues, and mendacity aside) but I can't know everything, and I'm willing to accept I have blindspots about racism. All I ask from friends who know me, is that I get the benefit of the doubt when I blunder.

Should I expect the benefit of the doubt from people who don't know me? That's tricky.

Does everyone remember this video from a few years ago? Professor David Kelly was doing a live interview from home, when his children burst into the room.



As it started to go viral, there were a lot references to the nanny, or maid, running in to hustle the kids out of the way. The woman in that clip is Kelly's wife. For many people, though, a seemingly unglamorous Asian woman (she wasn't expecting to be on camera) behind a white man in a suit and tie, was more likely to be a nanny than his partner.

You could make that assumption, learn the truth, and never think for a moment you'd been racist. You'd probably be indignant at the very suggestion. However, if you experience people making that kind of judgement all the time, then it can wear you down. It can make you the kind of person unwilling to give people the benefit of the doubt. You regard someone's unthinking assumption as evidence of a hardwired approach to human relations, because you see it all the time. In this kind of way, disagreements about racism can turn into arguments about who has the right to be seen as a good faith actor.

Another fear sometimes seems to be that accepting a claim of unwitting racism, leaves you defenceless against any subsequent claims. It doesn't. We've all got knowledge and experience to bring to bear, and we shouldn't hesitate to do so. Don't get me started on some of the wilder claims about cultural appropriation. Principal Skinner had a point.




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Post by The Oracle Mon 14 Jun 2021, 8:07 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
The Oracle wrote:...You know, I’ve always felt that the vast majority of abuse you see is not real racism.  I doubt you’d have that many true racists in society.  For me it is exactly as you say above, people trying to be offensive.  They’re trying to get to a sports person in order to win a competitive advantage for their team...

I've sometimes come across people who seem to be incredibly rude. Their friends would defend them, saying "He's not rude, just shy". I'd be left wondering how you are suppose to tell the difference between someone who is rude because he is rude, and someone who is rude, because he is shy. There may be a theoretical difference, it's just that, from a practical point of view, I get along better in life by treating them as if they are the same.

It's not a bad rule to use with racism as well.

People sometimes appear to reject the idea of racism being prevalent in society because it makes them personally complicit. In short, a bad person. That seems the wrong way round to view the issue. I think I'm a good person (anger management issues, and mendacity aside) but I can't know everything, and I'm willing to accept I have blindspots about racism. All I ask from friends who know me, is that I get the benefit of the doubt when I blunder.

Should I expect the benefit of the doubt from people who don't know me? That's tricky.

Does everyone remember this video from a few years ago? Professor David Kelly was doing a live interview from home, when his children burst into the room.



As it started to go viral, there were a lot references to the nanny, or maid, running in to hustle the kids out of the way. The woman in that clip is Kelly's wife. For many people, though, a seemingly unglamorous Asian woman (she wasn't expecting to be on camera) behind a white man in a suit and tie, was more likely to be a nanny than his partner.

You could make that assumption, learn the truth, and never think for a moment you'd been racist. You'd probably be indignant at the very suggestion. However, if you experience people making that kind of judgement all the time, then it can wear you down. It can make you the kind of person unwilling to give people the benefit of the doubt. You regard someone's unthinking assumption as evidence of a hardwired approach to human relations, because you see it all the time. In this kind of way, disagreements about racism can turn into arguments about who has the right to be seen as a good faith actor.

Another fear sometimes seems to be that accepting a claim of unwitting racism, leaves you defenceless against any subsequent claims. It doesn't. We've all got knowledge and experience to bring to bear, and we shouldn't hesitate to do so. Don't get me started on some of the wilder claims about cultural appropriation. Principal Skinner had a point.




You’ve quoted me there so I’m going to assume that your response is directed at me specifically.  I want to make it clear that I am not denying racisms exists.  I’m not talking about structural racism, racism within our instructions and structures.  I’m talking about sports fans in particular using a slur (be it related to race, religion, body size, standout physical features such as the size of someone’s nose, something about their wife, etc.) and using that to try to illicit a negative response from a sportsman. Trying to get into their heads to make them perform poorly.  A bit like the guy on Happy Gilmore shouting ‘Jack*ss’ as he’s about to take a shot. It is my personal view that that the people behind it are not always necessarily racist.  They can flip to a chant about being someone being overweight just as easily, or something about someone’s wife.  Is that not essentially the same?  It would/could be equally as distressing for the person on the receiving end.

I can accept that others hold a different view on this though. But on your other points, I completely agree that racism is present in our society at many different levels, structurally, institutionally, etc. and presents many barriers for people from BAME backgrounds.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 8:52 am

Marler said of his racist taunt:' It didn't matter that his teammates called him GypsyBoy or that he was proud of his traveller heritage. I'd called him that name with the sole purpose of pissing him off and throwing him off his game. That was wrong of me'

'Far worse (than the sanction of the 6ns) was the fact that I was trolled online and accused of being racist, which rattled me to the core and cut me deeply'.

He goes onto say he doesn't put himself in the same category as Suarez re race. His wife would back him he says ' The most important thing is that I know you're not a racist....'

So as you are saying Oracle. I like Marler, I like his book. The whole section around that though is deaf. Obviously he focuses on his own run up to that and post the incident. The fact he could use racism to try and get a rise but in his head he's not a racist. His wife and friends and reinforcing that. He's not like Suarez in his head.

Hmm. If you're going to be racist to people no matter the reason you've being a racist in that moment. He knew the context was that Lee was going to be understandably upset and went with it anyway. I was critical at the time and compared it to someone calling Itoje the n word for a wind up. At the time it seemed more acceptable to aim racism at Gypsy/travellers etc. Given that he did this and still doesn't see the impact that sort of thing can have just reinforces you can racist and it doesn't matter as you're not really racist.

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Post by Irish Londoner Tue 15 Jun 2021, 8:57 am

The Oracle wrote:
BamBam wrote:I went to the game yesterday. The lads sat near where I was who booed the knee also booed the Croatian national anthem, added No Surrender to God save the Queen and spent plenty of time on the concourse and during the game singing 10 German Bombers. Most of the rest of the time was spent calling Modric a Kumquat!

Are these lads really making an anti political point or do they just see it as an excuse to be offensive to others?

You know, I’ve always felt that the vast majority of abuse you see is not real racism.  I doubt you’d have that many true racists in society.  For me it is exactly as you say above, people trying to be offensive.  They’re trying to get to a sports person in order to win a competitive advantage for their team.  But away from that scenario and environment I doubt that there are as many racists as people make out.  And it’s not just race either, as fans will use appearance, hair/lack of hair, weight, height (tall or short), etc. to shout abuse in the hope they they ‘get to’ the person and put them off their game.  Even player to player too.  One player calling another player a ‘black’ something, or a ‘fat’ something’, or a ‘lanky’ something, or an ‘ugly’ something, or a ‘bald’ something, etc., etc.  I doubt they are really racist or anti-fat or have a real issue with bald people.  But it’s the ‘thing’ they know they can use against the other person.  The Marler incident with Samson Lee and calling him gypsy boy.  I doubt Marler has a real issue with the gypsy travelling community.  But it was an ‘identifyer’ or a characteristic that Marler pinpointed that made Samson Lee different and which he attempted to use to wind him up.  Could have used fat boy too.  If he was black perhaps he would have used ‘black boy’ or something to rile the player up.  But no matter how unsavoury, I doubt he is genuinely racist (or whatever the correct term is) in his real-world views on gypsy folk.  Doesn’t excuse it of course.

Maybe you should listen to the people who it's being addressed towards, if a player or indeed a person on the street says that what's said to them is racist or otherwise offensive, then there's a pretty high chance that it is. Of course us Paddies are sensitive about that sort of thing - what do the Taffy Sheepshaggers think? Or is that "just bantz mate...."

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Post by The Oracle Tue 15 Jun 2021, 9:59 am

Irish Londoner wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
BamBam wrote:I went to the game yesterday. The lads sat near where I was who booed the knee also booed the Croatian national anthem, added No Surrender to God save the Queen and spent plenty of time on the concourse and during the game singing 10 German Bombers. Most of the rest of the time was spent calling Modric a Kumquat!

Are these lads really making an anti political point or do they just see it as an excuse to be offensive to others?

You know, I’ve always felt that the vast majority of abuse you see is not real racism.  I doubt you’d have that many true racists in society.  For me it is exactly as you say above, people trying to be offensive.  They’re trying to get to a sports person in order to win a competitive advantage for their team.  But away from that scenario and environment I doubt that there are as many racists as people make out.  And it’s not just race either, as fans will use appearance, hair/lack of hair, weight, height (tall or short), etc. to shout abuse in the hope they they ‘get to’ the person and put them off their game.  Even player to player too.  One player calling another player a ‘black’ something, or a ‘fat’ something’, or a ‘lanky’ something, or an ‘ugly’ something, or a ‘bald’ something, etc., etc.  I doubt they are really racist or anti-fat or have a real issue with bald people.  But it’s the ‘thing’ they know they can use against the other person.  The Marler incident with Samson Lee and calling him gypsy boy.  I doubt Marler has a real issue with the gypsy travelling community.  But it was an ‘identifyer’ or a characteristic that Marler pinpointed that made Samson Lee different and which he attempted to use to wind him up.  Could have used fat boy too.  If he was black perhaps he would have used ‘black boy’ or something to rile the player up.  But no matter how unsavoury, I doubt he is genuinely racist (or whatever the correct term is) in his real-world views on gypsy folk.  Doesn’t excuse it of course.

Maybe you should listen to the people who it's being addressed towards, if a player or indeed a person on the street says that what's said to them is racist or otherwise offensive, then there's a pretty high chance that it is. Of course us Paddies are sensitive about that sort of thing - what do the Taffy Sheepshaggers think? Or is that "just bantz mate...."

It’s something I’ve heard a lot as a Welsman but for me that’s bantz, not racism. I mean, the Taff is a river. Hardly offensive or with deep significant meaning. And I don’t know of anyone who has actually shag*ed a sheep. Do Jocks get deeply offended by being called Jocks? So not a great example, and completely different to abhorrent racism.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 15 Jun 2021, 10:04 am

The Oracle wrote:It’s something I’ve heard a lot as a Welsman but for me that’s bantz, not racism. I mean, the Taff is a river. Hardly offensive or with deep significant meaning. And I don’t know of anyone who has actually shag*ed a sheep. Do Jocks get deeply offended by being called Jocks? So not a great example, and completely different to abhorrent racism.

It is a form of racism though. You and I would take it as banter, but people could get massively offended when you poke fun of that nationality.

Lost in Wales gets upset by it, he has mentioned it on here.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 10:10 am

You called it racist abuse 2 pages ago but now its back to banter LD.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 15 Jun 2021, 10:25 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:You called it racist abuse 2 pages ago but now its back to banter LD.

You are a jumped up little so and so aren't you.

It is a form of racism, and as I said at the time just because I have thick skin, I can take it for what I see it. It doesn't detract from the fact that it is a form of racism though.

So take your ideologies elsewhere, as they are not welcome here.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 10:31 am

Not for you to say champ. Glad we both agree its abuse and not banter.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 15 Jun 2021, 10:34 am

Back on ignore for you.

Before long, you will have nobody to speak to on here. Rolling Eyes

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 10:37 am

I will miss your sparkling debate. I'll continue to point out your inconsistencies though. Blocked because you agree with me and disagree with Oracle. Must have hurt you!

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 15 Jun 2021, 10:43 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I will miss your sparkling debate. I'll continue to point out your inconsistencies though. Blocked because you agree with me and disagree with Oracle. Must have hurt you!

Very mature response there 7.5.
You have a very interesting debating method. Ignore everyone elses opinions outright, then when people give up, you mock them.

Nice one.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 10:46 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I will miss your sparkling debate. I'll continue to point out your inconsistencies though. Blocked because you agree with me and disagree with Oracle. Must have hurt you!

Very mature response there 7.5.
You have a very interesting debating method. Ignore everyone elses opinions outright, then when people give up, you mock them.

Nice one.

'You are a jumped up little so and so aren't you.' Thought it was a pretty reasonable response after that tbf Geordie. He agrees with me but hates to say it out loud. Don't think I've ever ignored opinions.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 15 Jun 2021, 10:49 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I will miss your sparkling debate. I'll continue to point out your inconsistencies though. Blocked because you agree with me and disagree with Oracle. Must have hurt you!

Very mature response there 7.5.
You have a very interesting debating method. Ignore everyone elses opinions outright, then when people give up, you mock them.

Nice one.

You know as well as anyone by now that 7.5 will keep going until everyone else loses the will to live. It* will then consider it a victory.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 15 Jun 2021, 10:52 am

We should avoid name calling its not the way forward, but whilst you've just stated you listen to everyones opinions, you really dont come across like that on this site.

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Post by The Oracle Tue 15 Jun 2021, 10:55 am

I can't agree that 'Taff' is racism, LD. Please explain your though process. It would be the same as saying 'Geordie' is racism. Is it really?

Or do you mean the 'sheep shag*ger' bit? Again, racism??? Come on!
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 10:59 am

In most cases I'll argue the case, sometimes I just ignore it. The cases on here in general have come about because some people here aren't listening to the fact that the kneeling isn't anything to do with a political party but about raising awareness etc. Given that fact, not opinion, I'd say that there are a few here who aren't listening to facts but merely going with a made up debate that is easier to disagree with publicly. It's a shame LD has run off as you could discuss with him why he supports the BLM political cause anyway instead of simply going back to kneeling is associated with BLM; as if anyone is going to boo the next time someone bends the knee to propose or gets knighted by the monarch.

So I've listened for the last 4 pages after kneeling was brought up by yourself, provided the response its nothing to do with that and responded to the various points throughout, even the comparison of kneeling with nazi salutes (and that was getting distasteful).

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 15 Jun 2021, 11:11 am

But you see...that exact point is the frustrating part.

Do you not agree that simply saying its nothing to do with a group, is irrelevant IF that particular action is Globally identifiable to said specific group?

No one on here is questioning the racism part...it needs to be eradicated...but peoples issue is that regardless what Southgate says, by doing that action they are aligning themselves to the particular group. A group which many people are very uncomfortable with...?
And by ignoring the fans they are effectively sticking their fingers up at them...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 11:24 am

You kneel to get knighted and to propose (in most cases). Should that be changed now because a minority see it linked to the BLM?

In regards to ignoring things, Southgate and wider members of the squad etc have clearly stated they aren't aligning themselves to the group. Personally if they do stick 2 fingers up to fans who want to boo them, so what?

I liked Rugby Fans question which seemed to get lost in the red mist of BLM: 'Doctor Grey mentioned earlier that gestures can be adopted by any groups for their own ends.

As a case in point, Patriotic Alternative went to Wembley and called on people to boo anyone taking a knee. Their message is "Stop kneeling for migrants & their descendants! Stop feeding their victimhood complex!"

https://twitter.com/PatAltEast/status/1404020668975431682

They are a far right nationalist group, set up by a former leading BNP organiser.

Does that fact that booing anyone kneeling has now been adopted, and is being promoted, by a racist hate group mean that everyone who objects to kneeling should be considered to share their views?

I wouldn't think so but I also don't think Gareth Southgate is a marxist.'

Question for you Geordie why are you seemingly annoyed/upset by a similar action being made anyway? Initial confusion (by some) now cleared up, so whats the big deal? Even if its not confused by again a minority of people whats the issue? People will read up on why the England team are doing it and most will then agree.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 15 Jun 2021, 11:30 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Question for you Geordie why are you seemingly annoyed/upset by a similar action being made anyway? Initial confusion (by some) now cleared up, so whats the big deal? Even if its not confused by again a minority of people whats the issue? People will read up on why the England team are doing it and most will then agree.

Again your opinion is not fact. If some people associate the act of taking a knee with the wider BLM movement that is down to them, it is not down to you to decide whether they can or cannot hold that view.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 11:37 am

You'd accept it's extremely unlikely that those people are going to boo people getting knighted though? If its just about the smaller context of the England team kneeling then surely it's a bit brighter to listen to the team as to the actual reasons? We've not even got to the point that these people are supposed to be supporting the team and are booing people before kick off. Can't imagine that its a sense of pride that would be rushing through people like Raheem Sterling at that point.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 15 Jun 2021, 11:41 am

You keep mentioning the act of being knighted as if they are in any way similar, it is not.

You can support taking a knee if you choose, no one is saying you can't, some of us however support the cause but not the act. It's a very simple thing to understand.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 11:45 am

You kneel when you are knighted soul. Kneeling is associated with BLM for some people isn't it? Why don't you like the gesture?

Obviously there are some people who have also stated it's nothing to do with BLM but politics full stop. Kind of puts a spanner in the works of linking it purely to a specific gesture rather than disagreement about the aim also.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-57382945

"Booing is a way football fans can communicate dissatisfaction," says Andrew, a football fan in his 40s who was at both England games this week - and joined in the booing when players took the knee.

Andrew, who is based in Lincoln, tells Radio 1 Newsbeat he booed to show his objection to what he sees as "an identity politics agenda that focuses on black people and skin colour, when as far as I am concerned we are all England fans regardless of colour".

"Some seem to genuinely believe booing is an act of racism - I reject that," he adds.

Other fans say the "political" gesture of taking the knee is detracting from the sport.

"If I want to watch politics, I'd switch on Westminster Live," one Twitter user says.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 15 Jun 2021, 11:46 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:You kneel to get knighted and to propose (in most cases). Should that be changed now because a minority see it linked to the BLM?

In regards to ignoring things, Southgate and wider members of the squad etc have clearly stated they aren't aligning themselves to the group. Personally if they do stick 2 fingers up to fans who want to boo them, so what?

I liked Rugby Fans question which seemed to get lost in the red mist of BLM: 'Doctor Grey mentioned earlier that gestures can be adopted by any groups for their own ends.

As a case in point, Patriotic Alternative went to Wembley and called on people to boo anyone taking a knee. Their message is "Stop kneeling for migrants & their descendants! Stop feeding their victimhood complex!"

https://twitter.com/PatAltEast/status/1404020668975431682

They are a far right nationalist group, set up by a former leading BNP organiser.

Does that fact that booing anyone kneeling has now been adopted, and is being promoted, by a racist hate group mean that everyone who objects to kneeling should be considered to share their views?

I wouldn't think so but I also don't think Gareth Southgate is a marxist.'

Question for you Geordie why are you seemingly annoyed/upset by a similar action being made anyway? Initial confusion (by some) now cleared up, so whats the big deal? Even if its not confused by again a minority of people whats the issue? People will read up on why the England team are doing it and most will then agree.

Kneeling for a Knighthood? really...you compare that to Kneeling for BLM? Oh come on...

Southgate has said this, Southgate has said that...irrelevant...the act is aligned with the group. You cant separate it. Why not pick a different gesture then everyone is happy?

I dont agree with booing, but i understand the intention, and bar a few actual racists which you will ever eradicate fully, the majority are not booing as a racial aspect...its the political one.

I dont believe Southgate is a Marxist, but again your totally missing the point as you always do.

As to your question? I dont get it? Im not upset by anything, i dont want to watch footballers paying respect to a political organization that urges people to loot and damage businesses, to push to defund the police, to effectively break down society. And a large number of people now feel the same.

The fact that teams and individuals (of all colours and race) are now calling for it to end, means we are seeing sense now, and it should end soon.

Maybe then we can have a genuine campaign to end racism and not bow down to an extremely dangerous political group.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 15 Jun 2021, 11:48 am

Again you're not reading what has been written. I specifically referred to taking a knee, something that you do not do when you're knighted, it also ignores the rest of the ceremony.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 15 Jun 2021, 11:50 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:You kneel when you are knighted soul. Kneeling is associated with BLM for some people isn't it? Why don't you like the gesture?


.

Oh good lord...unreal....

Are you just trying to wind people up?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 15 Jun 2021, 11:51 am

The Oracle wrote:I can't agree that 'Taff' is racism, LD.  Please explain your though process.  It would be the same as saying 'Geordie' is racism.  Is it really?  

Or do you mean the 'sheep shag*ger' bit?  Again, racism???  Come on!

It's a slur against being Welsh in todays mad, mad world and people can "chose" to be offended by it. I don't get offended, but that is me, we are now pandering to the snowflake age where everything we say is put under a microscope unfortunately.

Its just the time we live in sadly. OK

For the record, I agree with how you see it, but not everybody will.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 11:56 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You kneel to get knighted and to propose (in most cases). Should that be changed now because a minority see it linked to the BLM?

In regards to ignoring things, Southgate and wider members of the squad etc have clearly stated they aren't aligning themselves to the group. Personally if they do stick 2 fingers up to fans who want to boo them, so what?

I liked Rugby Fans question which seemed to get lost in the red mist of BLM: 'Doctor Grey mentioned earlier that gestures can be adopted by any groups for their own ends.

As a case in point, Patriotic Alternative went to Wembley and called on people to boo anyone taking a knee. Their message is "Stop kneeling for migrants & their descendants! Stop feeding their victimhood complex!"

https://twitter.com/PatAltEast/status/1404020668975431682

They are a far right nationalist group, set up by a former leading BNP organiser.

Does that fact that booing anyone kneeling has now been adopted, and is being promoted, by a racist hate group mean that everyone who objects to kneeling should be considered to share their views?

I wouldn't think so but I also don't think Gareth Southgate is a marxist.'

Question for you Geordie why are you seemingly annoyed/upset by a similar action being made anyway? Initial confusion (by some) now cleared up, so whats the big deal? Even if its not confused by again a minority of people whats the issue? People will read up on why the England team are doing it and most will then agree.

Kneeling for a Knighthood? really...you compare that to Kneeling for BLM? Oh come on...

Southgate has said this, Southgate has said that...irrelevant...the act is aligned with the group. You cant separate it. Why not pick a different gesture then everyone is happy?

I dont agree with booing, but i understand the intention, and bar a few actual racists which you will ever eradicate fully, the majority are not booing as a racial aspect...its the political one.

I dont believe Southgate is a Marxist, but again your totally missing the point as you always do.

As to your question? I dont get it? Im not upset by anything, i dont want to watch footballers paying respect to a political organization that urges people to loot and damage businesses, to push to defund the police, to effectively break down society. And a large number of people now feel the same.

The fact that teams and individuals (of all colours and race) are now calling for it to end, means we are seeing sense now, and it should end soon.

Maybe then we can have a genuine campaign to end racism and not bow down to an extremely dangerous political group.

Who is kneeling for the BLM though Geordie? Both are examples of people kneeling for different reasons. As you go onto to say it's irrelevant the act of kneeling even for a knighthood or to propose is aligned to BLM now.

As with my later post despite some people unhappy as they somehow see England to be backing BLM there are people who are booing simply because its political. Some as the post above are booing to 'Stop kneeling for migrants & their descendants! Stop feeding their victimhood complex!'. These are the views that are aligned to booing the kneeling by England fans.

The point on Marxism was a quote from someone else.

In recent polls the majority of people support the England players kneeling. Your point you make about footballers paying respect to a 'political organization '; i have to ask again where is anyone doing this? You know the reasons why they are kneeling and its not for this.

I only know very little on BLM (I'm sure LD will come and explain his support for it) but in relation to defund the police; seems a very proactive measure in USA.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 11:57 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Again you're not reading what has been written. I specifically referred to taking a knee, something that you do not do when you're knighted, it also ignores the rest of the ceremony.

You don't kneel to get knighted; was almost certain you did. Thoight I saw a pic of Bruce Forsythe doing it. Proposing then, its ok to boo them for aligning themselves to the BLM surely?

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 15 Jun 2021, 12:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Again you're not reading what has been written. I specifically referred to taking a knee, something that you do not do when you're knighted, it also ignores the rest of the ceremony.

You don't kneel to get knighted; was almost certain you did. Thoight I saw a pic of Bruce Forsythe doing it. Proposing then, its ok to boo them for aligning themselves to the BLM surely?

You kneel to be knighted, that however is not taking a knee. That is an important distinction to make as well as the dubbing with a sword that makes your comparison worthless.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 15 Jun 2021, 12:03 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You kneel to get knighted and to propose (in most cases). Should that be changed now because a minority see it linked to the BLM?

In regards to ignoring things, Southgate and wider members of the squad etc have clearly stated they aren't aligning themselves to the group. Personally if they do stick 2 fingers up to fans who want to boo them, so what?

I liked Rugby Fans question which seemed to get lost in the red mist of BLM: 'Doctor Grey mentioned earlier that gestures can be adopted by any groups for their own ends.

As a case in point, Patriotic Alternative went to Wembley and called on people to boo anyone taking a knee. Their message is "Stop kneeling for migrants & their descendants! Stop feeding their victimhood complex!"

https://twitter.com/PatAltEast/status/1404020668975431682

They are a far right nationalist group, set up by a former leading BNP organiser.

Does that fact that booing anyone kneeling has now been adopted, and is being promoted, by a racist hate group mean that everyone who objects to kneeling should be considered to share their views?

I wouldn't think so but I also don't think Gareth Southgate is a marxist.'

Question for you Geordie why are you seemingly annoyed/upset by a similar action being made anyway? Initial confusion (by some) now cleared up, so whats the big deal? Even if its not confused by again a minority of people whats the issue? People will read up on why the England team are doing it and most will then agree.

Kneeling for a Knighthood? really...you compare that to Kneeling for BLM? Oh come on...

Southgate has said this, Southgate has said that...irrelevant...the act is aligned with the group. You cant separate it. Why not pick a different gesture then everyone is happy?

I dont agree with booing, but i understand the intention, and bar a few actual racists which you will ever eradicate fully, the majority are not booing as a racial aspect...its the political one.

I dont believe Southgate is a Marxist, but again your totally missing the point as you always do.

As to your question? I dont get it? Im not upset by anything, i dont want to watch footballers paying respect to a political organization that urges people to loot and damage businesses, to push to defund the police, to effectively break down society. And a large number of people now feel the same.

The fact that teams and individuals (of all colours and race) are now calling for it to end, means we are seeing sense now, and it should end soon.

Maybe then we can have a genuine campaign to end racism and not bow down to an extremely dangerous political group.

Who is kneeling for the BLM though Geordie? Both are examples of people kneeling for different reasons. As you go onto to say it's irrelevant the act of kneeling even for a knighthood or to propose is aligned to BLM now.

As with my later post despite some people unhappy as they somehow see England to be backing BLM there are people who are booing simply because its political. Some as the post above are booing to 'Stop kneeling for migrants & their descendants! Stop feeding their victimhood complex!'. These are the views that are aligned to booing the kneeling by England fans.

The point on Marxism was a quote from someone else.

In recent polls the majority of people support the England players kneeling. Your point you make about footballers paying respect to a 'political organization '; i have to ask again where is anyone doing this? You know the reasons why they are kneeling and its not for this.

I only know very little on BLM (I'm sure LD will come and explain his support for it) but in relation to defund the police; seems a very proactive measure in USA.

Wow you have just actively stated you support defunding the police in the USA...

Debate over....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 12:04 pm

So in your minds eye just have the England players kneeling. Bingo, now its nothing to do with BLM (same as before really).

What other gesture would you guys prefer? It's going to get booed by people like Andrew quoted by the BBC anyway.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Jun 2021, 12:06 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You kneel to get knighted and to propose (in most cases). Should that be changed now because a minority see it linked to the BLM?

In regards to ignoring things, Southgate and wider members of the squad etc have clearly stated they aren't aligning themselves to the group. Personally if they do stick 2 fingers up to fans who want to boo them, so what?

I liked Rugby Fans question which seemed to get lost in the red mist of BLM: 'Doctor Grey mentioned earlier that gestures can be adopted by any groups for their own ends.

As a case in point, Patriotic Alternative went to Wembley and called on people to boo anyone taking a knee. Their message is "Stop kneeling for migrants & their descendants! Stop feeding their victimhood complex!"

https://twitter.com/PatAltEast/status/1404020668975431682

They are a far right nationalist group, set up by a former leading BNP organiser.

Does that fact that booing anyone kneeling has now been adopted, and is being promoted, by a racist hate group mean that everyone who objects to kneeling should be considered to share their views?

I wouldn't think so but I also don't think Gareth Southgate is a marxist.'

Question for you Geordie why are you seemingly annoyed/upset by a similar action being made anyway? Initial confusion (by some) now cleared up, so whats the big deal? Even if its not confused by again a minority of people whats the issue? People will read up on why the England team are doing it and most will then agree.

Kneeling for a Knighthood? really...you compare that to Kneeling for BLM? Oh come on...

Southgate has said this, Southgate has said that...irrelevant...the act is aligned with the group. You cant separate it. Why not pick a different gesture then everyone is happy?

I dont agree with booing, but i understand the intention, and bar a few actual racists which you will ever eradicate fully, the majority are not booing as a racial aspect...its the political one.

I dont believe Southgate is a Marxist, but again your totally missing the point as you always do.

As to your question? I dont get it? Im not upset by anything, i dont want to watch footballers paying respect to a political organization that urges people to loot and damage businesses, to push to defund the police, to effectively break down society. And a large number of people now feel the same.

The fact that teams and individuals (of all colours and race) are now calling for it to end, means we are seeing sense now, and it should end soon.

Maybe then we can have a genuine campaign to end racism and not bow down to an extremely dangerous political group.

Who is kneeling for the BLM though Geordie? Both are examples of people kneeling for different reasons. As you go onto to say it's irrelevant the act of kneeling even for a knighthood or to propose is aligned to BLM now.

As with my later post despite some people unhappy as they somehow see England to be backing BLM there are people who are booing simply because its political. Some as the post above are booing to 'Stop kneeling for migrants & their descendants! Stop feeding their victimhood complex!'. These are the views that are aligned to booing the kneeling by England fans.

The point on Marxism was a quote from someone else.

In recent polls the majority of people support the England players kneeling. Your point you make about footballers paying respect to a 'political organization '; i have to ask again where is anyone doing this? You know the reasons why they are kneeling and its not for this.

I only know very little on BLM (I'm sure LD will come and explain his support for it) but in relation to defund the police; seems a very proactive measure in USA.

Wow you have just actively stated you support defunding the police in the USA...

Debate over....

Why? You know what it entails, and when its been brought in has actually improved crime rates etc. I'll dig out the beeb article if I find it. Do you not think it would work more widely?

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