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England v USA - July 4th...USA independence day....

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Soul Requiem
flyhalffactory
Rugby Fan
MichaelT
LordDowlais
No 7&1/2
Heaf
hugehandoff
BamBam
Old Man
TightHEAD
Cumbrian
Duty281
formerly known as Sam
lostinwales
Mr Bounce
Poorfour
doctor_grey
GeordieFalcon
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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 02 Jul 2021, 11:41 am

First topic message reminder :

Teams...

England
1 Genge
2 Langdon,
3 Heyes,
4 McInally,
5 Ewels,
6 Ludlow, (Captain)
7 Underhill,
8 Chick,

9 Randall,
10 Smith,
11 Malins,
12Lawrence,
13 Slade,
14 Cokanasiga,
15 Steward

Subs
Blamire, Obano, Davidson, Hill, B Curry, Ludlum, Robson, Umaga

United States team:

1. David Ainu'u - Toulouse (FRA) - 9 caps
2. Mikey Sosene-Feagai - Old Glory DC - 5 caps
3. Paul Mullen - Utah Warriors - 18 caps
4. Gregory Peterson - Newcastle Falcons (ENG) - 30 caps
5. Nick Civetta - Rugby United New York - 26 caps
6. Jamason Fa'anana-Schultz - Old Glory DC - 2 caps
7. Riekert Hattingh - Seattle Seawolves - Uncapped
8. Cam Dolan - NOLA Gold - 51 caps
9. Ruben de Haas - Austin Gilgronis - 17 caps
10. Luke Carty - LA Giltinis - Uncapped
11. Mika Kruse - Utah Warriors - Uncapped
12. Bryce Campbell - Austin Gilgronis - 32 caps
13. Marcel Brache - Western Force (AUS) - 23 caps
14. Mikey Te'o - Utah Warriors - 28 caps
15. Will Hooley - Saracens (ENG) - 15 caps

Subs
16. Joe Taufete'e - Lyon (FRA) - 27 caps
17. Matt Harmon - NOLA Gold - Uncapped
18. Dino Waldren - NOLA Gold - 19 caps
19. Nate Brakeley - Rugby United New York - 23 caps
20. Psalm Wooching - San Diego Legion - 4 caps
21. Hanco Germishuys - Rugby United New York - 21 caps
22. Michael Baska - Utah Warriors - Uncapped
23. Calvin Whiting - Utah Warriors - 1 cap

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 05 Jul 2021, 11:55 am

The whole premise of your point. Steward was taken out in the air, that the American touched the ball first doesn't make a jot of difference.

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Post by flyhalffactory Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:02 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:

He got to the ball first, hence he was brought down, that's the letter of the law, Steward was lucky to get away with it.

The yank was totally forecasted on the ball, they both were leaping forward at speed concentrating on the ball, the whole movement took less than 2 seconds. Have you ever leapt static in a line-out, that's difficult to know where the other and often you drag, it's much worse when you are leaping at speed for a ball that's 3-4 times higher.

If you can see there was intent in real time then it beggars belief. The female commentator (totally biased all match) got it wrong

Can you point me in the direction of the relevant law.

9.17 A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet are off the ground
USA first to the ball, hence he is in play, Steward doesn't get to the ball and as a result they both end up on the floor. Hence foul play

Law 9.11, the referee is always entitled to issue a red or yellow card for anything that they deem to be reckless or dangerous.
When Brace reviewed it he could see that USA got to the ball but England didn't deliberately with intent foul.

Common sense prevailed. But to suggest that USA player should have had a red.......well it just shows people didn't watch it or lack of knowledge (or bias)
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Post by flyhalffactory Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:03 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:The whole premise of your point. Steward was taken out in the air, that the American touched the ball first doesn't make a jot of difference.

Utter rubbish.
He wasn't taken out in the air, how could he have been when the point of contact was USA taking the ball and not been able to go forward because England was above and on him


Last edited by flyhalffactory on Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:04 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:

He got to the ball first, hence he was brought down, that's the letter of the law, Steward was lucky to get away with it.

The yank was totally forecasted on the ball, they both were leaping forward at speed concentrating on the ball, the whole movement took less than 2 seconds. Have you ever leapt static in a line-out, that's difficult to know where the other and often you drag, it's much worse when you are leaping at speed for a ball that's 3-4 times higher.

If you can see there was intent in real time then it beggars belief. The female commentator (totally biased all match) got it wrong

Can you point me in the direction of the relevant law.

9.17 A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet are off the ground
USA first to the ball, hence he is in play, Steward doesn't get to the ball and as a result they both end up on the floor. Hence foul play

Law 9.11, the referee is always entitled to issue a red or yellow card for anything that they deem to be reckless or dangerous.
When Brace reviewed it he could see that USA got to the ball but England didn't deliberately with intent foul.

Common sense prevailed. But to suggest that USA player should have had a red.......well it just shows people didn't watch it or lack of knowledge (or bias)

That is your interpretation of what you think the law says rather than what it actually says, you'll notice that neither law differentiates between a ball carrier and non ball carrier.

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Post by BamBam Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:05 pm

Has anyone got a link to the incident?

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Post by flyhalffactory Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:14 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:

He got to the ball first, hence he was brought down, that's the letter of the law, Steward was lucky to get away with it.

The yank was totally forecasted on the ball, they both were leaping forward at speed concentrating on the ball, the whole movement took less than 2 seconds. Have you ever leapt static in a line-out, that's difficult to know where the other and often you drag, it's much worse when you are leaping at speed for a ball that's 3-4 times higher.

If you can see there was intent in real time then it beggars belief. The female commentator (totally biased all match) got it wrong

Can you point me in the direction of the relevant law.

9.17 A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet are off the ground
USA first to the ball, hence he is in play, Steward doesn't get to the ball and as a result they both end up on the floor. Hence foul play

Law 9.11, the referee is always entitled to issue a red or yellow card for anything that they deem to be reckless or dangerous.
When Brace reviewed it he could see that USA got to the ball but England didn't deliberately with intent foul.

Common sense prevailed. But to suggest that USA player should have had a red.......well it just shows people didn't watch it or lack of knowledge (or bias)

That is your interpretation of what you think the law says rather than what it actually says, you'll notice that neither law differentiates between a ball carrier and non ball carrier.

Are you seriously suggesting that a non ball carrier can take out a ball carrier?
The ball carrier USA was "charged/pushed/grasped" when his feet was off the ground.
That's not my interpretation at all, it's the refs and his assistants interpretation after reviewing, which most people I have spoken to agree with......there has been no recourse so far but lets see by Tuesday evening after the review of the refs report.

The point is it's definitely not a red against USA
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Post by Old Man Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:15 pm

When played in the air, the first rule of thumb is did the player have a realistic chance to get the ball.

If the American player got to the ball first, then it is interpreted he played the ball, makes all the difference

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Post by lostinwales Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:15 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
lostinwales wrote:I hadn't thought about it until writing it but when competing for the ball in the air is knocking the ball back vs catching it an issue? It will depend a lot on the supporting players, but it does have a huge impact on how things play out.

In our scenario with Steward only one player has a chance of catching that ball, yet according to FHF he's in the wrong for trying to.

I do think this does have a significant impact on our perception of what happened.

Where have I said that?

FHF wrote:He got to the ball first, hence he was brought down, that's the letter of the law, Steward was lucky to get away with it.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:17 pm

Boys if anybody wants to see a bad incident of somebody being taken out in the air, look at the Ireland V Japan game in the second half where a Japanese player got taken out, and Ireland had a pen, they even reviewed it with the TMO. Erm

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:26 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:

Are you seriously suggesting that a non ball carrier can take out a ball carrier?
The ball carrier USA was "charged/pushed/grasped" when his feet was off the ground.
That's not my interpretation at all, it's the refs and his assistants interpretation after reviewing, which most people I have spoken to agree with......there has been no recourse so far but lets see by Tuesday evening after the review of the refs report.

The point is it's definitely not a red against USA

You seem to be getting quite emotional and mixing your words up so i'll respond based on what I think you mean. Yes a ball carrier can commit foul play according to law 9.11, leading with an elbow into contact for instance, the premise is the same here.

Most people you have spoken to, the unprovable argument.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:28 pm

BamBam wrote:Has anyone got a link to the incident?
I remember watching it but don't recall the time in the match. If anyone does remember please let us know. After this discussion, I would like to go back and watch it again. I do remember they showed the replay a number of times.

Don't have a link for it. For the record, I wasn't paying close attention and thought it really didn't resonate, because I was in and out of he kitchen at the time.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:29 pm

Old Man wrote:When played in the air, the first rule of thumb is did the player have a realistic chance to get the ball.

If the American player got to the ball first, then it is interpreted he played the ball, makes all the difference

I am not trying to pick a side, more provoke a discussion.

We can break the incident into two parts. The first is very grey and I am interested in people's opinion.

1) The competition for the ball.
The American did not attempt to catch the ball but did knock it back, not least because he had no hope of catching it. Steward leapt to catch the ball, and would have done so except for the American's arm getting there first.
2) Aftermath.
Steward ended head first into the dirt. The American's arm was around his shoulder. There is no malice and I think there is some evidence that the American was trying to mitigate the fall at the end, but there is a good argument that the position of the man's arm contributes to what could have been a very dangerous incident.

Now the fact that Steward leapt and the American did not does feed into the perception of what happened and would naturally bias us towards thinking a foul has been committed, unless the natural bias of the observer goes another way. Is it right? There is definitely an aspect of this being a rugby incident. The concerns I have are over the nature of the competition between knocking the ball back and catching it, and the safety of the American's subsequent actions.

From the point of view of the game I am happy the USA kept 15 on the field. From a safety point of view I am not sure the American got it right.



Last edited by lostinwales on Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Old Man Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:41 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Old Man wrote:When played in the air, the first rule of thumb is did the player have a realistic chance to get the ball.

If the American player got to the ball first, then it is interpreted he played the ball, makes all the difference

I am not trying to pick a side, more provoke a discussion.

We can break the incident into two parts. The first is very grey and I am interested in people's opinion.

1) The competition for the ball.
The American did not attempt to catch the ball but did knock it back, not least because he had no hope of catching it. Steward leapt to catch the ball, and would have done so except for the American's arm getting there first.
2) Aftermath.
Steward ended head first into the dirt. The American's arm was around his shoulder. There is no malice and I think there is some evidence that the American was trying to mitigate the fall at the end, but there is a good argument that the position of the man's arm contributes to what could have been a very dangerous incident.

Now the fact that Steward leapt and the American did not does feed into the perception of what happened and would naturally bias us towards thinking a foul has been committed, unless the natural bias of the observer goes another way. Is it right? There is definitely an aspect of this being a rugby incident. The concerns I have are over the nature of the competition between knocking the ball back and catching it, and the safety of the American's subsequent actions.

From the point of view of the game I am happy the USA kept 15 on the field. From a safety point of view I am not sure the American got it right.


I can understand that a rigorous view can tend towards 'rugby incident' because

As far as I know there is no law on whether you catch or tap the ball, only whether you had a realistic chance of getting the ball, it also doesn’t state whether jumping for the ball is necessary, I suppose it will come down to individual interpretation untill such time as the law is changed.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:42 pm

Young Freddie was very impressive mind.

I would have no issues with him starting the AI's.

Anyone notice Mr Daly had an interesting cameo for the lions aswell - at 13...set up a couple of tries i believe, a nice one for Adams.

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Post by flyhalffactory Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:50 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:

Are you seriously suggesting that a non ball carrier can take out a ball carrier?
The ball carrier USA was "charged/pushed/grasped" when his feet was off the ground.
That's not my interpretation at all, it's the refs and his assistants interpretation after reviewing, which most people I have spoken to agree with......there has been no recourse so far but lets see by Tuesday evening after the review of the refs report.

The point is it's definitely not a red against USA

You seem to be getting quite emotional and mixing your words up so i'll respond based on what I think you mean. Yes a ball carrier can commit foul play according to law 9.11, leading with an elbow into contact for instance, the premise is the same here.

Most people you have spoken to, the unprovable argument.

Nothing to do with emotion, I am quite calm lad. I am quite succinct, don't try to imply I'm not
I didn't say a ball carrier can't commit a foul, read what I said, don't try to set an agenda, you'll simply fail.

When it was reviewed from various angles for quite a while, then considered by all the officials, it could only be interpreted one way. You might not like it but that's your issue, doesn't alter anything
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Post by doctor_grey Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:52 pm

Frankly, though, I am not very fussed about the referee.  This was about the England team performance, and England team appeared to me to be disjointed and struggled for organisation.  Someone made the point this is a scratch England team, but the Americans were playing for the first time since 2019 so same or worse for them.  

The Americans seemed fairly well structured on defence, though did leave gaps which were exploited and reacted to the game slower, such as Malins great play from the kickoff.  They did very well to get those scores at the end.  The English subs were not tired so fair play to the Eagles.  

Thinking about England, though, I think it is very hard to pick that guy, or guys, who are dead nuts ready to step up.  More like those not ready or won't make the step up.  And nothing was helped by the injuries forcing players out of position (is Robson a better winger than a 9?)

Players I thought did well were:
Steward (obviously)
Cokanasiga, and was happy for him  
Marcus Smith, though not his best game
Underhill, of course
Ludlum, though it's hard to judge a replacement at times.  

Randall showed promise and also that he is not ready.  Yet.

By the way, was Slade on the pitch??????
I do feel for Umaga being out of position, but he showed nothing at IC.  

I think the next game will be more interesting assuming Dombrandt starts and does his thing.  We saw the Canada score with Wales, and without tougher opposition, will be tough to make real hard and fast conclusions.  Hoping Smith retains the 10 shirt and would like to see him paired with Mitchell.  Not sure Mitchell is the answer for England, but will provide a point of difference.


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Post by lostinwales Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:54 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Frankly, though, I am not very fussed about the referee.  This was about the England team performance, and England team appeared to me to be disjointed and struggled for organisation.  Someone made the point this is a scratch England team, but the Americans were playing for the first time since 2019 so that argument doesn't work here.  

The Americans seemed fairly well structured on defence, though did leave gaps which were exploited and reacted to the game slower, such as Malins great play from the kickoff.  They did very well to get those scores at the end.  The English subs were not tired so fair play to the Eagles.  

Thinking about England, though, I think it is very hard to pick that guy, or guys, who are dead nuts ready to step up.  More like those not ready or won't make the step up.  And nothing was helped by the injuries forcing players out of position (is Robson a better winger than a 9?)

Players I thought did well were:
Steward (obviously)
Cokanasiga, and was happy for him  
Marcus Smith, though not his best game
Underhill, of course
Ludlum, though it's hard to judge a replacement at times.  

Randall showed promise and also that he is not ready.  Yet.

By the way, was Slade on the pitch??????
I do feel for Umaga being out of position, but he showed nothing at IC.  

I think the next game will be more interesting assuming Dombrandt starts and does his thing.  We saw the Canada score with Wales, and without tougher opposition, will be tough to make real hard and fast conclusions.  Hoping Smith retains the 10 shirt and would like to see him paired with Mitchell.  Not sure Mitchell is the answer for England, but will provide a point of difference.  


Definitely a game for proving negatives instead of positives, if that makes sense.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:57 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:

Nothing to do with emotion, I am quite calm lad. I am quite succinct, don't try to imply I'm not
I didn't say a ball carrier can't commit a foul, read what I said, don't try to set an agenda, you'll simply fail.

When it was reviewed from various angles for quite a while, then considered by all the officials, it could only be interpreted one way. You might not like it but that's your issue, doesn't alter anything

I'm going to say that based on your insistence of using words like lad that you are anything but calm. I'll imply as I wish if I believe it to be true and in this instance that it was I believe. I've read what you said and based my comments upon that, it's your usual i'm right you're wrong style of debate.

It can be interpreted two ways, that it was interpreted in a certain way doesn't mean that it was the right way.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 05 Jul 2021, 12:59 pm

Blamire was lively and physical when he came on Doc, and scored...

Once he gets his arrows sorted he'll have to be in the mix for the full Senior Squad.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 05 Jul 2021, 1:01 pm

I think this game also put the nail in the coffin for quite a few hopefuls before their England career has even began....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Jul 2021, 1:02 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Frankly, though, I am not very fussed about the referee.  This was about the England team performance, and England team appeared to me to be disjointed and struggled for organisation.  Someone made the point this is a scratch England team, but the Americans were playing for the first time since 2019 so same or worse for them.  

The Americans seemed fairly well structured on defence, though did leave gaps which were exploited and reacted to the game slower, such as Malins great play from the kickoff.  They did very well to get those scores at the end.  The English subs were not tired so fair play to the Eagles.  

Thinking about England, though, I think it is very hard to pick that guy, or guys, who are dead nuts ready to step up.  More like those not ready or won't make the step up.  And nothing was helped by the injuries forcing players out of position (is Robson a better winger than a 9?)

Players I thought did well were:
Steward (obviously)
Cokanasiga, and was happy for him  
Marcus Smith, though not his best game
Underhill, of course
Ludlum, though it's hard to judge a replacement at times.  

Randall showed promise and also that he is not ready.  Yet.

By the way, was Slade on the pitch??????
I do feel for Umaga being out of position, but he showed nothing at IC.  

I think the next game will be more interesting assuming Dombrandt starts and does his thing.  We saw the Canada score with Wales, and without tougher opposition, will be tough to make real hard and fast conclusions.  Hoping Smith retains the 10 shirt and would like to see him paired with Mitchell.  Not sure Mitchell is the answer for England, but will provide a point of difference.

Yeah overall the ref was alright, but its a big incident where i feel he didnt want to make the big decision.

Performance wise I just thought it came unstuck with those 2 injuries and forced some really square pegs into round holes. Fingers crossed Jones thinks its too much of a risk from now on against better sides.

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Post by flyhalffactory Mon 05 Jul 2021, 1:07 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:

Nothing to do with emotion, I am quite calm lad. I am quite succinct, don't try to imply I'm not
I didn't say a ball carrier can't commit a foul, read what I said, don't try to set an agenda, you'll simply fail.

When it was reviewed from various angles for quite a while, then considered by all the officials, it could only be interpreted one way. You might not like it but that's your issue, doesn't alter anything

I'm going to say that based on your insistence of using words like lad that you are anything but calm. I'll imply as I wish if I believe it to be true and in this instance that it was I believe. I've read what you said and based my comments upon that, it's your usual i'm right you're wrong style of debate.

It can be interpreted two ways, that it was interpreted in a certain way doesn't mean that it was the right way.

That's the whole point, when reviewed from all angles, it can only be interpreted one way. Was there any deliberate intent to take out the ball carrier? Answer no, play on.

I have provided you all the qualifications on why the ref made the decision, I have closed all the doors. I have also said the ref used common sense and didn't penalise any player.

I'll close by saying there is no way it was a USA red and the ref made the correct decision.

Anyway this will go round in circles
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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 05 Jul 2021, 1:08 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Blamire was lively and physical when he came on Doc, and scored...

Once he gets his arrows sorted he'll have to be in the mix for the full Senior Squad.

Blamire also looks like he fits the shape Eddie likes his hookers. Easy to draw comparisons between him and a young LCD. He'd fit into the senior squad nicely when he's got his accuracy up. Definitely a player with a future in the squad. Feel for Langdon who did nothing wrong and was good at lineout time but he just didn't have the physical impact.

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Post by Soul Requiem Mon 05 Jul 2021, 1:12 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:

That's the whole point, when reviewed from all angles, it can only be interpreted one way. Was there any deliberate intent to take out the ball carrier? Answer no, play on.

I have provided you all the qualifications on why the ref made the decision, I have closed all the doors. I have also said the ref used common sense and didn't penalise any player.

I'll close by saying there is no way it was a USA red and the ref made the correct decision.

Anyway this will go round in circles

The laws don't say deliberate hence why it is your own interpretation.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 05 Jul 2021, 1:13 pm

lostinwales wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Frankly, though, I am not very fussed about the referee.  This was about the England team performance, and England team appeared to me to be disjointed and struggled for organisation.  Someone made the point this is a scratch England team, but the Americans were playing for the first time since 2019 so that argument doesn't work here.  

The Americans seemed fairly well structured on defence, though did leave gaps which were exploited and reacted to the game slower, such as Malins great play from the kickoff.  They did very well to get those scores at the end.  The English subs were not tired so fair play to the Eagles.  

Thinking about England, though, I think it is very hard to pick that guy, or guys, who are dead nuts ready to step up.  More like those not ready or won't make the step up.  And nothing was helped by the injuries forcing players out of position (is Robson a better winger than a 9?)

Players I thought did well were:
Steward (obviously)
Cokanasiga, and was happy for him  
Marcus Smith, though not his best game
Underhill, of course
Ludlum, though it's hard to judge a replacement at times.  

Randall showed promise and also that he is not ready.  Yet.

By the way, was Slade on the pitch??????
I do feel for Umaga being out of position, but he showed nothing at IC.  

I think the next game will be more interesting assuming Dombrandt starts and does his thing.  We saw the Canada score with Wales, and without tougher opposition, will be tough to make real hard and fast conclusions.  Hoping Smith retains the 10 shirt and would like to see him paired with Mitchell.  Not sure Mitchell is the answer for England, but will provide a point of difference.  


Definitely a game for proving negatives instead of positives, if that makes sense.
It must make sense if we both thought it!  A numbers of players were below expectation, which in hindsight, was probably always going to happen.  So, not saying these guys played themselves out of contention, but I thought were not terribly good in the game:  Slade (anonymous), McNally, Ewels, Chick, Randall (both good and not so much in equal measure), Umaga (out of position), Langdon (excellent throws, but seemed to me absent around the pitch).  

Moe fun to come next week.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Jul 2021, 1:13 pm

Blamire does look a good specimen, is he always that bad with his darts? Good comparison to LCD, who has come on leaps and bounds there.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Jul 2021, 1:16 pm

Thought Randall was very good myself. Hard to draw too much from USA but he's pushed himself up the reckoning surely? If he can replicate that against Australia or South Africa in the Autumn we may finally be able to move the team on.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 05 Jul 2021, 1:26 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Frankly, though, I am not very fussed about the referee.  This was about the England team performance, and England team appeared to me to be disjointed and struggled for organisation.  Someone made the point this is a scratch England team, but the Americans were playing for the first time since 2019 so that argument doesn't work here.  

The Americans seemed fairly well structured on defence, though did leave gaps which were exploited and reacted to the game slower, such as Malins great play from the kickoff.  They did very well to get those scores at the end.  The English subs were not tired so fair play to the Eagles.  

Thinking about England, though, I think it is very hard to pick that guy, or guys, who are dead nuts ready to step up.  More like those not ready or won't make the step up.  And nothing was helped by the injuries forcing players out of position (is Robson a better winger than a 9?)

Players I thought did well were:
Steward (obviously)
Cokanasiga, and was happy for him  
Marcus Smith, though not his best game
Underhill, of course
Ludlum, though it's hard to judge a replacement at times.  

Randall showed promise and also that he is not ready.  Yet.

By the way, was Slade on the pitch??????
I do feel for Umaga being out of position, but he showed nothing at IC.  

I think the next game will be more interesting assuming Dombrandt starts and does his thing.  We saw the Canada score with Wales, and without tougher opposition, will be tough to make real hard and fast conclusions.  Hoping Smith retains the 10 shirt and would like to see him paired with Mitchell.  Not sure Mitchell is the answer for England, but will provide a point of difference.  


Definitely a game for proving negatives instead of positives, if that makes sense.
It must make sense if we both thought it!  A numbers of players were below expectation, which in hindsight, was probably always going to happen.  So, not saying these guys played themselves out of contention, but I thought were not terribly good in the game:  Slade (anonymous), McNally, Ewels, Chick, Randall (both good and not so much in equal measure), Umaga (out of position), Langdon (excellent throws, but seemed to me absent around the pitch).  

Moe fun to come next week.

There is (usually!) so much competition that we don't give the players the time to bed in that teams with smaller player pools have to. But some guys look born to play this level and some don't. Examples being Ludlow who didn't and Blamire, who, despite the wayward darts, really did.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 05 Jul 2021, 1:47 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Frankly, though, I am not very fussed about the referee.  This was about the England team performance, and England team appeared to me to be disjointed and struggled for organisation.  Someone made the point this is a scratch England team, but the Americans were playing for the first time since 2019 so same or worse for them.  

The Americans seemed fairly well structured on defence, though did leave gaps which were exploited and reacted to the game slower, such as Malins great play from the kickoff.  They did very well to get those scores at the end.  The English subs were not tired so fair play to the Eagles.  

Thinking about England, though, I think it is very hard to pick that guy, or guys, who are dead nuts ready to step up.  More like those not ready or won't make the step up.  And nothing was helped by the injuries forcing players out of position (is Robson a better winger than a 9?)

Players I thought did well were:
Steward (obviously)
Cokanasiga, and was happy for him  
Marcus Smith, though not his best game
Underhill, of course
Ludlum, though it's hard to judge a replacement at times.  

Randall showed promise and also that he is not ready.  Yet.

By the way, was Slade on the pitch??????
I do feel for Umaga being out of position, but he showed nothing at IC.  

I think the next game will be more interesting assuming Dombrandt starts and does his thing.  We saw the Canada score with Wales, and without tougher opposition, will be tough to make real hard and fast conclusions.  Hoping Smith retains the 10 shirt and would like to see him paired with Mitchell.  Not sure Mitchell is the answer for England, but will provide a point of difference.

Wales put 68 points on Canada on the weekend, England have them next don't they ? If you need to gauge England, although I think you are being a little harsh on them in your analysis, then the game against Canada is the perfect one for you to do so.

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Post by Irish Londoner Mon 05 Jul 2021, 2:02 pm

These sort of games are always "dangerous" for the players - do well and it's "you were only playing USA/Canada/Japan", do badly and you might never get another sniff of a cap again.

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Post by Poorfour Mon 05 Jul 2021, 2:13 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Wales put 68 points on Canada on the weekend, England have them next don't they ? If you need to gauge England, although I think you are being a little harsh on them in your analysis, then the game against Canada is the perfect one for you to do so.

I'm wary of a direct comparison of the scoreline - it's likely that England's team next week will be much more experimental than Wales's (albeit mitigated a bit if some of this weeks combos are retained or more club combos get on the pitch) - plus Canada will have had another week of playing together. But if we can see England maintain the forward dominance they had against the USA but get a bit more coherence in attack I will be pretty happy.
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Post by BamBam Mon 05 Jul 2021, 2:54 pm

Putting a proper set of backs on the bench might help too

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Post by lostinwales Mon 05 Jul 2021, 3:20 pm

BamBam wrote:Putting a proper set of backs on the bench might help too

Subs are usually selected based on tactics. You don't normally expect to lose two outside backs in the first 45 minutes, although it has to be said there was no allowance for outside back injuries.

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Post by BamBam Mon 05 Jul 2021, 3:38 pm

Yeah true, I’m just grumpy about 6-2 splits on benches. What if someone was to have their nose broken by a wayward Frenchman? They’d never live it down if their team subsequently lost!

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 05 Jul 2021, 5:37 pm

BamBam wrote:Putting a proper set of backs on the bench might help too
Minor correction with your permission......

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Post by king_carlos Mon 05 Jul 2021, 5:41 pm

BamBam wrote:Yeah true, I’m just grumpy about 6-2 splits on benches. What if someone was to have their nose broken by a wayward Frenchman? They’d never live it down if their team subsequently lost!

Goes both ways to be fair.

What if a team was to unload 6 forwards from their bench in a RWC to finish off an absolute battering of a team that comprehensively outplayed NZ the week before? That'd make the 'traditional' side going with 3 backs on their bench who's introduction had absolutely no impact on the game look a bit old fashioned wouldn't it... Whistle

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Post by king_carlos Mon 05 Jul 2021, 6:00 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thought Randall was very good myself. Hard to draw too much from USA but he's pushed himself up the reckoning surely? If he can replicate that against Australia or South Africa in the Autumn we may finally be able to move the team on.

I thought Randall had a good game but forced it a touch at times. He was in the initial 28 man Six Nations squad (i.e. the full squad not he shadow one) before injury so seemed to be in the plans earlier. Jones has frequently picked only 2 scrum-halves in over 30 man squads before so picking a third to fit Randall in suggested he was genuinely interested in him.

I'd like to see Randall get really stuck in as a pest in defence around the fringes like he does for Bristol. His defence when playing like that is a strength in his game despite his size.

What scrum-halves are expected to offer in defence at international level is the big step-up from club level in my opinion. Gone are the days of 9s just loitering a few yards behind the ruck waiting for a turnover. Faf is a vital part of the Boks blitz around the fringes. Connor Murray frequently slots in as the final defender in Ireland's defensive line to allow one wing to drop deep. Dupont is an outstanding cover defender due to his pace, that mitigates the issues if sides can get the ball outside of the very aggressive Shaun Edwards blitz as Dupont is frequently there to cover. Aaron Smith is a brilliant sweeper covering chips so that the NZ fullback can sit deeper than many 15s do.

Youngs frequently sits in the backfield with our fullback and fields high balls so the wingers can sit higher in the defensive line allowing Mitchell's hybrid defensive system. England blitz very hard around the fringes to stop forward runner off 9, then drift if the ball goes wider employing that 'bend don't break' strategy that allows sides to go through lots of phases with England backing their fitness and frequently huge tackle counts to hold out longer than the opposition can attack without erring. Youngs or Ford sitting deep with the wingers defending higher allows that aggressive blitz around the fringes as the extra man out wide means we aren't immediately giving an overlap if teams go wider, bypassing the 2 or 3 forwards that fly out the line around the fringes each phase.

I really rate Randall and hope he gets some opportunities behind full strength packs.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 05 Jul 2021, 8:37 pm

king_carlos wrote:
BamBam wrote:Yeah true, I’m just grumpy about 6-2 splits on benches. What if someone was to have their nose broken by a wayward Frenchman? They’d never live it down if their team subsequently lost!

Goes both ways to be fair.

What if a team was to unload 6 forwards from their bench in a RWC to finish off an absolute battering of a team that comprehensively outplayed NZ the week before? That'd make the 'traditional' side going with 3 backs on their bench who's introduction had absolutely no impact on the game look a bit old fashioned wouldn't it... Whistle
But if one had a centre akin to a modern day Mike Tindall, it is a very different prospect to having a centre like Slade, or frankly, Farrell. Does England have someone like that?

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Post by MichaelT Tue 06 Jul 2021, 8:57 am

I think England could make a 6-2 split work with players like Sam Simmonds or Ben Earl in there who might have the pace to be a winger as a last resort.

Or maybe Jack Nowell as a 9th forward as was somewhat mentioned a few years ago.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 06 Jul 2021, 9:10 am

MichaelT wrote:I think England could make a 6-2 split work with players like Sam Simmonds or Ben Earl in there who might have the pace to be a winger as a last resort.

Or maybe Jack Nowell as a 9th forward as was somewhat mentioned a few years ago.

Big Joe looks like he could play at 8 in an emergency

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Post by Poorfour Tue 06 Jul 2021, 9:28 am

MichaelT wrote:I think England could make a 6-2 split work with players like Sam Simmonds or Ben Earl in there who might have the pace to be a winger as a last resort.

Or maybe Jack Nowell as a 9th forward as was somewhat mentioned a few years ago.

That might be one reason for Jack Kenningham's rapid call up - he's pretty quick for a back row.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 06 Jul 2021, 9:58 am

There's always the risk you'll end up playing a guy in a position which doesn't wholly suit but if we're getting to the point of thinking about playing flankers in midfield it's time to just go back to a sensible 5 3 bench.

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Post by Old Man Tue 06 Jul 2021, 10:33 am

king_carlos wrote:
BamBam wrote:Yeah true, I’m just grumpy about 6-2 splits on benches. What if someone was to have their nose broken by a wayward Frenchman? They’d never live it down if their team subsequently lost!

Goes both ways to be fair.

What if a team was to unload 6 forwards from their bench in a RWC to finish off an absolute battering of a team that comprehensively outplayed NZ the week before? That'd make the 'traditional' side going with 3 backs on their bench who's introduction had absolutely no impact on the game look a bit old fashioned wouldn't it... Whistle

Beautiful post, I have fond memories of the Bomb Squad. Hug

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Post by Poorfour Tue 06 Jul 2021, 10:41 am

Old Man wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
BamBam wrote:Yeah true, I’m just grumpy about 6-2 splits on benches. What if someone was to have their nose broken by a wayward Frenchman? They’d never live it down if their team subsequently lost!

Goes both ways to be fair.

What if a team was to unload 6 forwards from their bench in a RWC to finish off an absolute battering of a team that comprehensively outplayed NZ the week before? That'd make the 'traditional' side going with 3 backs on their bench who's introduction had absolutely no impact on the game look a bit old fashioned wouldn't it... :whistle:

Beautiful post, I have fond memories of the Bomb Squad. :hug:

Mine are less fond... and I can remember another, earlier, final in which a team with a 4:3 bench ended up playing their reserve scrum half at 7 after two of their back rows and one of their locks went off injured.
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Post by Old Man Tue 06 Jul 2021, 10:47 am

Poorfour wrote:
Old Man wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
BamBam wrote:Yeah true, I’m just grumpy about 6-2 splits on benches. What if someone was to have their nose broken by a wayward Frenchman? They’d never live it down if their team subsequently lost!

Goes both ways to be fair.

What if a team was to unload 6 forwards from their bench in a RWC to finish off an absolute battering of a team that comprehensively outplayed NZ the week before? That'd make the 'traditional' side going with 3 backs on their bench who's introduction had absolutely no impact on the game look a bit old fashioned wouldn't it... Whistle

Beautiful post, I have fond memories of the Bomb Squad. Hug

Mine are less fond... and I can remember another, earlier, final in which a team with a 4:3 bench ended up playing their reserve scrum half at 7 after two of their back rows and one of their locks went off injured.

Which match was that? Getting old, I don’t remember much these days

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Post by Poorfour Tue 06 Jul 2021, 11:33 am

RWC Final 2007 - I think the Boks would have won anyway, but the England injury list at the end definitely put the nails in the coffin. As did the ref's ability to see very similar incidents very differently depending on which side had the ball...
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Post by Old Man Tue 06 Jul 2021, 11:47 am

Don’t remember much about that game to be honest, I should watch it again sometime

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 06 Jul 2021, 5:54 pm

Well, it wasn't the best game of Rugby we have ever watched. Boks were clearly better and I remember being surprised England ever made it out of the quarterfinals.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 07 Jul 2021, 2:11 pm

That was the time of player power, the senior players could see that Ashton's game plan not working so they just about took over the side and reverted back to the "Old England". Potentially only a blind linesman's line width away from a second RWC.
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Post by doctor_grey Wed 07 Jul 2021, 6:03 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:That was the time of player power, the senior players could see that Ashton's game plan not working so they just about took over the side and reverted back to the "Old England". Potentially only a blind linesman's line width away from a second RWC.
Bringing back a narrow, narrow, razor thin blind man's memory there! Have to go to work soon but will find a replay tonight. Just to torture myself. Again.

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