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England v USA - July 4th...USA independence day....

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Soul Requiem
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MichaelT
LordDowlais
No 7&1/2
Heaf
hugehandoff
BamBam
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formerly known as Sam
lostinwales
Mr Bounce
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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 02 Jul 2021, 11:41 am

First topic message reminder :

Teams...

England
1 Genge
2 Langdon,
3 Heyes,
4 McInally,
5 Ewels,
6 Ludlow, (Captain)
7 Underhill,
8 Chick,

9 Randall,
10 Smith,
11 Malins,
12Lawrence,
13 Slade,
14 Cokanasiga,
15 Steward

Subs
Blamire, Obano, Davidson, Hill, B Curry, Ludlum, Robson, Umaga

United States team:

1. David Ainu'u - Toulouse (FRA) - 9 caps
2. Mikey Sosene-Feagai - Old Glory DC - 5 caps
3. Paul Mullen - Utah Warriors - 18 caps
4. Gregory Peterson - Newcastle Falcons (ENG) - 30 caps
5. Nick Civetta - Rugby United New York - 26 caps
6. Jamason Fa'anana-Schultz - Old Glory DC - 2 caps
7. Riekert Hattingh - Seattle Seawolves - Uncapped
8. Cam Dolan - NOLA Gold - 51 caps
9. Ruben de Haas - Austin Gilgronis - 17 caps
10. Luke Carty - LA Giltinis - Uncapped
11. Mika Kruse - Utah Warriors - Uncapped
12. Bryce Campbell - Austin Gilgronis - 32 caps
13. Marcel Brache - Western Force (AUS) - 23 caps
14. Mikey Te'o - Utah Warriors - 28 caps
15. Will Hooley - Saracens (ENG) - 15 caps

Subs
16. Joe Taufete'e - Lyon (FRA) - 27 caps
17. Matt Harmon - NOLA Gold - Uncapped
18. Dino Waldren - NOLA Gold - 19 caps
19. Nate Brakeley - Rugby United New York - 23 caps
20. Psalm Wooching - San Diego Legion - 4 caps
21. Hanco Germishuys - Rugby United New York - 21 caps
22. Michael Baska - Utah Warriors - Uncapped
23. Calvin Whiting - Utah Warriors - 1 cap

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Post by Poorfour Wed 07 Jul 2021, 11:05 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:That was the time of player power, the senior players could see that Ashton's game plan not working so they just about took over the side and reverted back to the "Old England". Potentially only a blind linesman's line width away from a second RWC.

We were in the crowd - lower tier, a dozen rows from the pitch and directly in line with Cueto’s knee. It was clear it wasn’t a ty from the off, and when Catt went off injured, it was pretty clear England had no way to win. If there was a gripe, it was that the ref interpreted very similar situations differently depending on who had the ball.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Jul 2021, 8:16 am

Team should be out today. The main lookout for me is who turns up on the wings. Personally would love to see Radwan and Cokanasiga.  My fear is we see Marchant and Bassett. Kenningham ruled out for Covid as well.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Jul 2021, 11:01 am

Yay. From the RFU, they've missed the number 8!

15. Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
14. Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 39 caps)
12. Dan Kelly (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
11. Adam Radwan (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)
10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 1 cap)
9. Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 1 cap)

1. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 29 caps)
2. Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, 1 cap)
3. Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
4. Harry Wells (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
5. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 22 caps)
6. Lewis Ludlow (C) (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 23 caps)

FINISHERS
16. Curtis Langdon (Sale Sharks, 1 cap)
17. Beno Obano (Bath Rugby, 2 caps)
18. Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
19. Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons, 1 cap)
20. Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 9 caps)
21. Dan Robson (Wasps, 13 caps)
22. George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 3 caps)
23. Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 5 caps)

It's Dombrandt. Lots to like.

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Post by BamBam Thu 08 Jul 2021, 11:04 am

Haha, it is Dombrandt though from the accompanying blurb! Shame Ben Curry / Ted Hill aren't getting the blindside spot, Ludlow seems a pointless selection, Ewels could captain just as effectively

Dombrandt, Randall, Smith with that back 3 is very exciting.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Jul 2021, 11:09 am

Yeah Ludlow and Slade seems a bit of a waste but so much good about that team. Like that Jones has thrown down the gauntlet to Blamire, like Heyes has another chance , Dombrandt well he'll be starting in the autumn. Kelly, Radwan, Steward and orchestrated by Smith; yes please.

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Post by Fluxy Thu 08 Jul 2021, 11:12 am

A lot to like about the selection, could have been more Eddie, but this seems to be opening up a bit more

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Post by king_carlos Fri 09 Jul 2021, 1:07 am

Ludlow is an odd one. I'd be pretty surprised if he features again after these games. Tough for Ludlam as well. His form dipped after injury but in the back end of this season he has been superb and was good off the bench last week.

Overall I really like that selection.

The back three looks terrific. On merit this season I thought Hassell-Collins deserved the call ahead of Cokanasiga but Big Joe was great last weekend.

Interesting that Jones is capping (i.e. tying) Kelly but hasn't done so with Rodd. I believe Rodd is the only dual qualified players from these squads that won't be tied to England now. It's quite a rise for Kelly but he does look a terrific young player. His core skills are very good, though he does need to offer more offensively whether carrying in contact or through distribution but he has plenty of time and an abundance of talent to develop those skills.

If a lock gets injured I'd presume that Dombrandt will push into the row... Headscratch

A bit of a shame to not see Kenningham but there are lots of good back rows.

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Post by Poorfour Fri 09 Jul 2021, 8:54 am

I think Kenningham's time will come - he's in a mould that Eddie favours, strong, fast and versatile with an indefatigable engine. His main problem, I suspect, is that he has the Curry twins ahead of him who are similar in style and physique. The main work-ons I've seen so far are knowing how far to push it at the breakdown (which has been improving quickly but has a way to go) and he could probably carry a couple of kilos more muscle without losing anything in pace. Another season or two playing at club level with Quins won't hurt his development.

It'd be a surprise to see him break into the senior England squad before RWC 23, but I'd expect him to be in strong contention next time around.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 09 Jul 2021, 8:56 am

https://twitter.com/EnglandRugby/status/1413396296493412357?s=19

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Post by lostinwales Fri 09 Jul 2021, 9:09 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://twitter.com/EnglandRugby/status/1413396296493412357?s=19

Who is that? Radwan?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 09 Jul 2021, 9:16 am

Yeah that's Radwan, he's got serious wheels. Up there with May and LRZ I'd say. Needs a better agent because LRZ seems to be getting a lot of publicity and endorsement and Radwan is missing out. Some of his tries this season were very impressive. To me he looks like the natural replacement for May and possibly before the world cup.

Kenningham, in a way similar to the Curry twins but he is taller and I think with Evans at Quins this could play into his hands. Eddie has seemed to want a third jumper at 6. We saw with Wilson and Martin in the 6N and he's used Lawes there a fair bit in the past. He also likes the Underhill/Curry Kamikaze Kids combo with lots of tackles, mobility and ability to attack the breakdown. Kenningham can offer the best of both with a bit of development. Evans was very impressive pre injury and there's an opportunity for Kenningham to maybe go in at 6 for Quins and show that he can fulfill that hybrid do it all role. He's certainly showing the early promise. He could naturally fill out a little more which would help. Just got to work on his lineouts and carrying.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 09 Jul 2021, 9:39 am

lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:https://twitter.com/EnglandRugby/status/1413396296493412357?s=19

Who is that? Radwan?

Hes rubbish, slow, weak...runs poor lines. Nothing to see here...move on.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 09 Jul 2021, 9:47 am

Back Row selection is becoming insane...

But Eddie is very loyal...and trusts his chosen players.

T. Curry, And Underhill are clearly his trusty soldiers. Others may come through but they will have to match or better what those boys can do...and thats not an easy task.
Willis looked like he might do that before his unfortunate injury.

But B.Curry, Kenningham, Ludlum etc etc have their work cut out.


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Post by Soul Requiem Fri 09 Jul 2021, 9:53 am

Tom Curry has raised the bar to such an extent that Jones micro analyses the back row and if they don't meet his very high expectations they don't hang around the squad for long. I expected Lewis Ludlum to fall away after the world cup, he seemed like a short term pick but in the past season he's upped his level massively and I think he'll be the one challenging Underhill for that seven shirt, his tackle repeatability is incredible.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 09 Jul 2021, 9:59 am

Sadly with Underhill we know there will always be periods where he is unavailable due to injury.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 09 Jul 2021, 10:02 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Tom Curry has raised the bar to such an extent that Jones micro analyses the back row and if they don't meet his very high expectations they don't hang around the squad for long. I expected Lewis Ludlum to fall away after the world cup, he seemed like a short term pick but in the past season he's upped his level massively and I think he'll be the one challenging Underhill for that seven shirt, his tackle repeatability is incredible.

Yeah Ludlum deserves some credit. I wasnt his biggest fan but he has been incredibly physical etc this season. He's worthy of his place in the squad i think...on this form.


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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 09 Jul 2021, 10:03 am

lostinwales wrote:Sadly with Underhill we know there will always be periods where he is unavailable due to injury.

Very true...and that might be the one gap that allows Willis or which ever pretender to the crown to take over that spot.

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Post by Poorfour Fri 09 Jul 2021, 10:59 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Tom Curry has raised the bar to such an extent that Jones micro analyses the back row and if they don't meet his very high expectations they don't hang around the squad for long. I expected Lewis Ludlum to fall away after the world cup, he seemed like a short term pick but in the past season he's upped his level massively and I think he'll be the one challenging Underhill for that seven shirt, his tackle repeatability is incredible.

Which is why Kenningham's call up is significant - a lot of the other back rows have had to put in 2 or 3 seasons to meet Eddie's standards, but Kenningham's played 12 games in total, with the run of 7 games since Evans' injury being the bulk of his experience. If Dombrandt is "faster Nick Easter", Kenningham shows every indication of being "faster Chris Robshaw", which I think ticks a lot of Eddie's boxes. According to RugbyPass his tackle stats are very similar to Underhill's this season, but his discipline and turnovers are actually better, which might be what's exciting the Beaver:

Underhill
Kenningham
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Post by doctor_grey Fri 09 Jul 2021, 2:25 pm

I know we have all said it before, but it is so odd England have so many good young back row options, yet where are the Inside Centres? I blame Boris.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 09 Jul 2021, 3:12 pm

Ben Earl not being involved in these games surprised me. I really rate his cameos and thought his pace could add something for England in attack. Hopefully he comes back in.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 09 Jul 2021, 3:42 pm

Flanker is a position where I didn't think anyone would really push. The current options aren't really at peak age yet and are class. Perhaps Hill but he's not showing Jones what he wants; though thought Proudfoot would be pushing for him or someone like him.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 09 Jul 2021, 4:27 pm

Agree. For the most part I'm not really fussed about who plays in the back row. There are so many really good young options. Curry 1, maybe Curry 2, Underhill, Simmonds, Dombrandt. Ludlum, Earl, Willis 1, Willis 2, and so on. Maybe it depends on what you like or how we want to play.

It's kind of like looking for women in a bar. I like the brunette, you like the blonde, someone else like the one with the smile, and the one perv who likes the old lady with no teeth.

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Post by Mr Bounce Fri 09 Jul 2021, 5:02 pm

It's such an embarrassment of riches right now. There are so many combinations you could make and all would do a fantastic job, even those on the very extreme edges.

Look at this:

Status Quo last year & the RWC was:
6. T Curry 7. Underhill 8. Vunipola

but you could easily go for

6. T Hill 7. Earl 8. Simmonds

6. Lawes 7. Willis (when fit) 8. Dombrandt

6. Ludlam 7. B Curry 8. T Willis

6. Ludlow 7. Kenningham 8. Chick

That's 5 completely separate back row selections with 15 different players, all of whom (Kenningham and Tom Willis excepted) will be capped by Sunday, and I'd wager that most would not look out of place in an International line-up. Yes, someone like Ludlow is a bit of a "meh" selection but someone like Teimana Harrison has played well recently so could easily slot in and take his place. Some of the players you might only pick against lower tier teams such as an Italy, Georgia, Canada etc, but they would most likely do well in most cases.

We are living in a rich vein of form players for the England back row.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 09 Jul 2021, 6:51 pm

I hadn't thought it that far, but you are right.  Incredible depth. That is really amazing.  So how can we be struggling with other positions?

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Post by lostinwales Fri 09 Jul 2021, 7:02 pm

Generational bias. Some years just seem to better for a position than others. Plus rateof development of individuals can skew the stats. Curry developed as a really top level flanker at a ridiculously young age so has in effect joined the generation in front by age.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 09 Jul 2021, 7:58 pm

lostinwales wrote:Generational bias. Some years just seem to better for a position than others. Plus rateof development of individuals can skew the stats. Curry developed as a really top level flanker at a ridiculously young age so has in effect joined the generation in front by age.
So...people develop a different ages. Then I might still have a chance as a late bloomer?????

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Post by Poorfour Fri 09 Jul 2021, 8:41 pm

Inside centre has been a problem position for England for getting on for 20 years now. Farrell has filled in there for so long (and to be fair, done a good enough job) that we forget it’s not his natural position and that the last great English 12 was Will Greenwood [1].

There have been various promising prospects over the years, but we’ve lost a lot of them to injury and even more to not quite making the transition to international level.

You’d think that we’d be able to produce at least one, but no.

Meanwhile, South Africa has so many inside centres that they can afford not to include a player Andre Esterhuizen in their squad. [quarters on] Thanks Bokke! [/quarters off]. And most other teams would sell their grandmothers for the depth England have in the front and back rows, if they didn’t need them for eligibility reasons.

[1] Yes, I know he *wore* 13, but he played 12 unless Catt was playing inside him
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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 09 Jul 2021, 9:15 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:It's such an embarrassment of riches right now. There are so many combinations you could make and all would do a fantastic job, even those on the very extreme edges.

Look at this:

Status Quo last year & the RWC was:
6. T Curry 7. Underhill 8. Vunipola

but you could easily go for

6. T Hill 7. Earl 8. Simmonds

6. Lawes 7. Willis (when fit) 8. Dombrandt

6. Ludlam 7. B Curry 8. T Willis

6. Ludlow 7. Kenningham 8. Chick

That's 5 completely separate back row selections with 15 different players, all of whom (Kenningham and Tom Willis excepted) will be capped by Sunday, and I'd wager that most would not look out of place in an International line-up. Yes, someone like Ludlow is a bit of a "meh" selection but someone like Teimana Harrison has played well recently so could easily slot in and take his place. Some of the players you might only pick against lower tier teams such as an Italy, Georgia, Canada etc, but they would most likely do well in most cases.

We are living in a rich vein of form players for the England back row.

No George Martin? Outstanding form at 6 at the end of the season, hammered Nathan Hughes in the game Vs Bristol. No Will Evans the turnover king of the Prem last season? Injury really struck him down at a most unfortunate time, he'd have been great in the season finale and odds on to get capped by England if not injured.

Re Greenwood and wearing 13 wasn't that because the Bath boys Tindall and Catt followed the Bath tradition of not wearing 13? Back in the day Tigers only wore letters (still do under the badge on the front of the shirt) not numbers and Bath never had a number 13.

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Post by Mr Bounce Fri 09 Jul 2021, 10:41 pm

Will Evans wasn't in the most recent squad so apologies for leaving him out Sam! And also for Martin. Can't believe I forgot about him! So yet more to choose from. Ridiculous Depth.

So I suppose you could also have 6. Martin 7. Evans 8. Hughes. 6 different combos, 18 different players, all pretty good. Back row is definitely not one to worry about, unless Eddie keeps picking an unfit and out of form Billy V of course Whistle

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Post by king_carlos Sat 10 Jul 2021, 12:36 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Re Greenwood and wearing 13 wasn't that because the Bath boys Tindall and Catt followed the Bath tradition of not wearing 13? Back in the day Tigers only wore letters (still do under the badge on the front of the shirt) not numbers and Bath never had a number 13.

It was Guscott's superstition for wearing 12 whilst playing 13 that ended up with Greenwood wearing 13 whilst playing 12. That's according to Greenwood anyway.

It's often said it was because of the 1997 Lions tour game where he swallowed his tongue whilst wearing 12, having been cajoled into wearing the number against his superstition so the story goes. According to Greenwood himself that's an elaboration though, the superstition didn't start until later that year when he made his England debut, Guscott would only wear 12 so Greenwood wore 13 and it went pretty well so he stuck with it!

It's one of my biggest queries in rugby alongside Mauro Bergamasco at 9 that Andy Robinson actually tried to use Tindall as an inside centre despite knowing Tindall only played outside centre for England whilst wearing 12. It was almost as if he hoped no one would notice because he'd worn the number before. Tindall was an effective 13 but a terrible 12 before being partnered with Jamie Noon. Those two could make Farrell and Slade look balanced.

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Post by Cumbrian Sat 10 Jul 2021, 2:11 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:It's such an embarrassment of riches right now. There are so many combinations you could make and all would do a fantastic job, even those on the very extreme edges.

Look at this:

Status Quo last year & the RWC was:
6. T Curry 7. Underhill 8. Vunipola

but you could easily go for

6. T Hill 7. Earl 8. Simmonds

6. Lawes 7. Willis (when fit) 8. Dombrandt

6. Ludlam 7. B Curry 8. T Willis

6. Ludlow 7. Kenningham 8. Chick

That's 5 completely separate back row selections with 15 different players, all of whom (Kenningham and Tom Willis excepted) will be capped by Sunday, and I'd wager that most would not look out of place in an International line-up. Yes, someone like Ludlow is a bit of a "meh" selection but someone like Teimana Harrison has played well recently so could easily slot in and take his place. Some of the players you might only pick against lower tier teams such as an Italy, Georgia, Canada etc, but they would most likely do well in most cases.

We are living in a rich vein of form players for the England back row.

No George Martin? Outstanding form at 6 at the end of the season, hammered Nathan Hughes in the game Vs Bristol. No Will Evans the turnover king of the Prem last season? Injury really struck him down at a most unfortunate time, he'd have been great in the season finale and odds on to get capped by England if not injured.

Re Greenwood and wearing 13 wasn't that because the Bath boys Tindall and Catt followed the Bath tradition of not wearing 13? Back in the day Tigers only wore letters (still do under the badge on the front of the shirt) not numbers and Bath never had a number 13.

Even after all that you've got the youngsters and 'odds and sods' back-rowers like Miles Reid, Richard Capstick and Alfie Barbeary who have potential.

There truly is a golden generation of back-rowers coming through, we just need one of them to mount a serious challenge to Billy at no.8.

Still, we’ve come a long way from trying to shoehorn players like Kvesic into unsuitable positions, or having Tom Wood at no.8.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 10 Jul 2021, 3:01 pm

Jamie wor lad...get in

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 10 Jul 2021, 3:02 pm

Sam Underhill is a sheer physical animal isn't he...

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Post by TightHEAD Sat 10 Jul 2021, 3:03 pm

Fed up with her voice already!
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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 10 Jul 2021, 3:07 pm

Good lad Harry Wells. Snuffs out the rolling maul danger.

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