Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
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thebandwagonsociety
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tigertattie
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No 7&1/2
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R!skysports
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Hi All
I thought would be quite fun to see who has put their had up for a test spot and if anyone has gone backwards. This is based just on Lions performances (and I know this will change (if) more matches are played
So putting hands straight up
H Watson
Bigger
Rory Sutherland
Hogg
Williams
Itoje
Luke Cowan Dickie
Harris
Adams
VdMerwe
Price
Walking to the door
Vunipola
Murray
Farrell
I thought would be quite fun to see who has put their had up for a test spot and if anyone has gone backwards. This is based just on Lions performances (and I know this will change (if) more matches are played
So putting hands straight up
H Watson
Bigger
Rory Sutherland
Hogg
Williams
Itoje
Luke Cowan Dickie
Harris
Adams
VdMerwe
Price
Walking to the door
Vunipola
Murray
Farrell
Last edited by R!skysports on Thu 15 Jul 2021, 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Updating teams)
R!skysports- Posts : 3667
Join date : 2011-03-17
Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
I know this might sound controversial, but I thought Adam Beard really put his hand up yesterday, I know it was crap opposition, but this is what we are basing everyone against aren't we ?
I think he could at least be a bench option.
Can't really argue against your list, although I think Conor Murray will start ahead of Price.
I think he could at least be a bench option.
Can't really argue against your list, although I think Conor Murray will start ahead of Price.
LordDowlais- Posts : 15419
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
I'd struggle based on performance. 3 games have been far too easy to properly judge. There have been a couple of average performances but they're barely having to raise their game and haven't been challenged. If we were playing South Africa to the standard shown so far anyone would do.
Vunipola can't scrummage well against anyone with a decent tight head. We've known that for the last 2 tours and he still gets picked somehow though.
Vunipola can't scrummage well against anyone with a decent tight head. We've known that for the last 2 tours and he still gets picked somehow though.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31383
Join date : 2012-10-20
Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd struggle based on performance. 3 games have been far too easy to properly judge. There have been a couple of average performances but they're barely having to raise their game and haven't been challenged. If we were playing South Africa to the standard shown so far anyone would do.
Vunipola can't scrummage well against anyone with a decent tight head. We've known that for the last 2 tours and he still gets picked somehow though.
maybe but it is still the most recent games they have played, so shows who is looking on the best form
R!skysports- Posts : 3667
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
If pushed I'd go
Anyone bar Vunipola George furlong
Itoje Henderson
Beirne Watson
Simmonds
Price farrell henshaw Harris
Williams vdm
Hogg.
Owens lcd sinckler Hill Curry Murray Russell rees-zammit.
Anyone bar Vunipola George furlong
Itoje Henderson
Beirne Watson
Simmonds
Price farrell henshaw Harris
Williams vdm
Hogg.
Owens lcd sinckler Hill Curry Murray Russell rees-zammit.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31383
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Furlong cowan dickie Sutherland
Itoje ( not sure)
Beirne Watson Simmonds
Price
Biggar
Henshaw Harris
Adams VDM Hogg
Very similar to you 7 1/2 - is that the first time we agree on anything? :-)
Itoje ( not sure)
Beirne Watson Simmonds
Price
Biggar
Henshaw Harris
Adams VDM Hogg
Very similar to you 7 1/2 - is that the first time we agree on anything? :-)
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
We agree sometimes bar Vunipola farell and playing props the right way around TJ!
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31383
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
We agree on vunipola - I thought his performance in the last game was pure merde
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
I was going for Billy. We both surely agree with the rest of the world bar Gatland and Jones that Vunipola is at best am impact prop.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31383
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Major names culled in McGeechan's latest Lions XV
McGeechan’s Lions Test XV:
15 Liam Williams
14 Anthony Watson
13 Chris Harris
12 Owen Farrell
11 Josh Adams
10 Dan Biggar
9 Conor Murray (capt)
1 Rory Sutherland
2 Jamie George
3 Tadhg Furlong
4 Maro Itoje
5 Iain Henderson
6 Tadhg Beirne
7 Hamish Watson
8 Taulupe Faletau
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/major-names-culled-in-mcgeechans-latest-lions-xv/?fbclid=IwAR3oJ-LxJ4AZku44hMo9t6NUbEI8h4ovU2HEqagc2lpcT9rkWnnLWj4whgU
Not a huge amount to disagree
Hogg must be close, and will need a good game to push in
Murray not had a great tour so far and think we have fallen to the 'having a Captain' selected before form
Farrell not shown enough for me to be selected, but not really many 12s
McGeechan’s Lions Test XV:
15 Liam Williams
14 Anthony Watson
13 Chris Harris
12 Owen Farrell
11 Josh Adams
10 Dan Biggar
9 Conor Murray (capt)
1 Rory Sutherland
2 Jamie George
3 Tadhg Furlong
4 Maro Itoje
5 Iain Henderson
6 Tadhg Beirne
7 Hamish Watson
8 Taulupe Faletau
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/major-names-culled-in-mcgeechans-latest-lions-xv/?fbclid=IwAR3oJ-LxJ4AZku44hMo9t6NUbEI8h4ovU2HEqagc2lpcT9rkWnnLWj4whgU
Not a huge amount to disagree
Hogg must be close, and will need a good game to push in
Murray not had a great tour so far and think we have fallen to the 'having a Captain' selected before form
Farrell not shown enough for me to be selected, but not really many 12s
R!skysports- Posts : 3667
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
I posted on the wrong thread, but here’s my take on McGeechan’s XV copied from the other one:
I think I’d prefer Ali Price at 9, Hogg at FB, VDM instead of Watson, and perhaps not Faletau at 8 unless he can show a lot more. The rest is there or thereabouts for me. Any of the hookers would be fine for me. Don’t think Wyn Jones would be bad at LH but I like Sutherland too
I think I’d prefer Ali Price at 9, Hogg at FB, VDM instead of Watson, and perhaps not Faletau at 8 unless he can show a lot more. The rest is there or thereabouts for me. Any of the hookers would be fine for me. Don’t think Wyn Jones would be bad at LH but I like Sutherland too
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
R!skysports wrote:Major names culled in McGeechan's latest Lions XV
McGeechan’s Lions Test XV:
15 Liam Williams - not sure, need to see Hogg again
14Anthony WatsonDvdM
13 Chris Harris
12Owen FarrellHenshaw (if fit)
11 Josh Adams
10 Dan Biggar
9Conor Murray (capt)Price
1 Rory Sutherland
2 Jamie George
3 Tadhg Furlong
4Maro ItojeBeirne
5 Iain Henderson (C)
6Tadhg BeirneNavidi
7 Hamish Watson
8 Taulupe Faletau
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/major-names-culled-in-mcgeechans-latest-lions-xv/?fbclid=IwAR3oJ-LxJ4AZku44hMo9t6NUbEI8h4ovU2HEqagc2lpcT9rkWnnLWj4whgU
Not a huge amount to disagree
Hogg must be close, and will need a good game to push in
Murray not had a great tour so far and think we have fallen to the 'having a Captain' selected before form
Farrell not shown enough for me to be selected, but not really many 12s
flyhalffactory- Posts : 3297
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flyhalffactory likes this post
Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
As much as I like DVDM, his defence is quite dreadful, no way can he be a starter.
Adams and Watson are looking pretty safe as wing options I think.
Simmonds, just can't see him getting close to the XV either. We don't need an extra back.
Adams and Watson are looking pretty safe as wing options I think.
Simmonds, just can't see him getting close to the XV either. We don't need an extra back.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Sgt_Pooly wrote:As much as I like DVDM, his defence is quite dreadful, no way can he be a starter.
Adams and Watson are looking pretty safe as wing options I think.
Simmonds, just can't see him getting close to the XV either. We don't need an extra back.
I hear that a lot. But have not really seen much to back that up (any more than the other backs)
He makes loads of cover tackles, jackles and put himself about
His defence is ok (not world class) but his attack is terrifyingly
R!skysports- Posts : 3667
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Positioning more than tackling, he is literally all over the place at times. I really like him but Kolbe will destroy him.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Positioning more than tackling, he is literally all over the place at times. I really like him but Kolbe will destroy him.
I’m fairness the whole back line was all over the place lol
The mainly scored over our mistakes and turn over ball which they took very well. Difficult to have a set defence with that
R!skysports- Posts : 3667
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
This isn't a recent issue, he's always been like this. Really focus on him 1 game...he gets in some really odd positions.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Sgt_Pooly wrote:As much as I like DVDM, his defence is quite dreadful, no way can he be a starter.
Adams and Watson are looking pretty safe as wing options I think.
Simmonds, just can't see him getting close to the XV either. We don't need an extra back.
His defence is better than LRZ or Watson. Watson let in two tries with poor position against the sharks.
go look at 6N stats - its a total myth.
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Sgt_Pooly wrote:This isn't a recent issue, he's always been like this. Really focus on him 1 game...he gets in some really odd positions.
Oh I have done. I have been watching him for 3 years. His defense is not the strongest but he is much better than LRZ or Watson
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
TJ wrote:Sgt_Pooly wrote:As much as I like DVDM, his defence is quite dreadful, no way can he be a starter.
Adams and Watson are looking pretty safe as wing options I think.
Simmonds, just can't see him getting close to the XV either. We don't need an extra back.
His defence is better than LRZ or Watson. Watson let in two tries with poor position against the sharks.
go look at 6N stats - its a total myth.
No it's not.
You don't register a missed tackle if you're not even in a position to attempt the tackle. He's a defensive liability and will not start a test....he may offer a bench impact, although I doubt it.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
TJ wrote:Sgt_Pooly wrote:This isn't a recent issue, he's always been like this. Really focus on him 1 game...he gets in some really odd positions.
Oh I have done. I have been watching him for 3 years. His defense is not the strongest but he is much better than LRZ or Watson
It's literally not a patch on either of those.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
having said that my back 3 would be adams, williams and Hogg. LRZ or DVDM as sub perhaps
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
I'd go similar....I imagine it will be Adams/Hogg/Watson with Williams on the bench.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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TJ likes this post
Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Sgt_Pooly wrote:TJ wrote:Sgt_Pooly wrote:This isn't a recent issue, he's always been like this. Really focus on him 1 game...he gets in some really odd positions.
Oh I have done. I have been watching him for 3 years. His defense is not the strongest but he is much better than LRZ or Watson
It's literally not a patch on either of those.
Oh dear - go watch the last lions game again Go look at the stats from the 6N. LRZ misses more tackles than he makes,, watson positing for the second sharks try was so poor
You have made the mistake of accepting myths that build up around players without actually watching them
I have been watching Duhan play for the last 3 years and seen every game he has played. He is not a fabulous defender but he is miles better than Watson or LRZ
Go watch some games and look at some stats
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
No need to be patronising TJ.
Stats, stats,stats....stats don't show poor positioning do they? If a player doesn't get in the the position to make a tackle....he can't miss it....what's difficult here?
DVDM has awful positioning....Kolbe would torture him. I find it interesting that you've never noticed this, its pretty common knowledge he struggles here.
Watch him carefully, you may be surprised.
Stats, stats,stats....stats don't show poor positioning do they? If a player doesn't get in the the position to make a tackle....he can't miss it....what's difficult here?
DVDM has awful positioning....Kolbe would torture him. I find it interesting that you've never noticed this, its pretty common knowledge he struggles here.
Watch him carefully, you may be surprised.
Last edited by Sgt_Pooly on Sun 11 Jul 2021, 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Stats - 6 nations. DVDM - 13 tackles made, 3 missed one turnover in the tackle less than 1 in 4 missed
LRZ 28 made 9 missed no turnovers 1 in 3 missed
Watson 15 made 7 missed no turnovers 1 in 2 missed
then you add to that that DVDM made more yards, beat more players and scored more tries.
LRZ 28 made 9 missed no turnovers 1 in 3 missed
Watson 15 made 7 missed no turnovers 1 in 2 missed
then you add to that that DVDM made more yards, beat more players and scored more tries.
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Sgt_Pooly wrote:No need to be patronising TJ.
Stats, stats,stats....stats don't show poor positioning do they? If a player doesn't get in the the position to make a tackle....he can't miss it, do you understand this?
DVDM has awful positioning....Kolbe would torture him. I find it interesting that you've never noticed this, its pretty common knowledge he struggles here.
Watch him carefully, you may be surprised.
Oh I have watched him carefully for 3 years
he made one huge clanger in the six nations. He is not a weak defender. Its a myth like Finn is a flake and Mish is too small
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Positioning.......the stats don't have context!
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Better positioning than Watson who just stood and watched while the sharks winger scored
DVDN is still a raw talent yes as is LRZ but one huge clanger and everyone thinks he is useless
DVDN is still a raw talent yes as is LRZ but one huge clanger and everyone thinks he is useless
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
TJ wrote:Better positioning than Watson who just stood and watched while the sharks winger scored
DVDN is still a raw talent yes as is LRZ but one huge clanger and everyone thinks he is useless
Which is the same criteria you are using for Watson.
lostinwales- lostinwales
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
lostinwales wrote:TJ wrote:Better positioning than Watson who just stood and watched while the sharks winger scored
DVDN is still a raw talent yes as is LRZ but one huge clanger and everyone thinks he is useless
Which is the same criteria you are using for Watson.
Not really as he backed it up with the 6 nations where he missed a bucket load
R!skysports- Posts : 3667
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Exactly - watson missed half his tackles off a similar number to DVDN who missed 1 in 4
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Anyway. I think you need to look at how he would fit into the game plan. I think he will be on the bench as you can not really leave off that much of a destructive runner totally
R!skysports- Posts : 3667
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
TJ wrote:Better positioning than Watson who just stood and watched while the sharks winger scored
DVDN is still a raw talent yes as is LRZ but one huge clanger and everyone thinks he is useless
ok then......now I know you're messing with me.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Are we saying that Anthony Watson is weak defensively now. Dear me.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31383
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
No 7&1/2 wrote:Are we saying that Anthony Watson is weak defensively now. Dear me.
Yes I am - On what I have seen. Last 6 N only made half his tackles and was miles out of position for the sharks tries> Gatland agrees :-) ( sort of)
Question to Gatland: is this the most competitive squad in your Lions experiences?
“Yes, absolutely.
“I thought Duhan van der Merwe was excellent tonight. Anthony was great on attack. Couple of defensive lapses we need to sort out with him. Liam Williams was good.
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
R!skysports wrote:Anyway. I think you need to look at how he would fit into the game plan. I think he will be on the bench as you can not really leave off that much of a destructive runner totally
trouble is if yo have a 6 2 split you need a SH and an all rounder on the bench. all rounder DVDM is not
Back 3 is a real selection headache with at least 5 guys worthy of a place and all have their flaws but all cracking players.
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Fixed that for you.R!skysports wrote:Hi All
I thought would be quite fun to see who has put their had up for a test spot and if anyone has gone backwards. This is based just on Lions performances (and I know this will change (if) more matches are played
So putting hands straight up
H Watson
Bigger
Rory Sutherland
Hogg
Williams
Itoje
Luke Cowan Dickie
Harris
Adams
VdMerwe
Price
Walking very slowly to the door
Vunipola
jimbopip- Posts : 7338
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
the OP also said "on tour form" On what we have seen so far its Adams and DVDM on what they have shown us on this tour.
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Sgt_Pooly wrote:TJ wrote:Better positioning than Watson who just stood and watched while the sharks winger scored
DVDN is still a raw talent yes as is LRZ but one huge clanger and everyone thinks he is useless
ok then......now I know you're messing with me.
Sarge
He waasn't messing with you, he saw it (the match) for what it was
Watson was fundamentally at fault for the first two Sharks tries
First try was a semi drift attack, mistake by Daly but Watson was ahead of Gareth Davies even at that point, terrible positioning but to add insult to injury he was sleeping even a couple of seconds later as the Sharks offloaded with Biggar, Hamish and Conan defending the line against the 9, 10 14 and 15 with Watson still further upfield, even though it looked like Watson was jogging as the Sharks 9, 14 and 15 were getting into top gear, he was absolutely burnt for pace by all three of the Sharks backs, even Hamish was quicker than him
Second try, on the drift attack again, Lions mistake, Watson again ahead of the Lions SH Davies!, no defence of the wing-half sector, he had to turn on his heels by which time Sanjay was left marking the right wing and FB areas
flyhalffactory- Posts : 3297
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
No 7&1/2 wrote:Are we saying that Anthony Watson is weak defensively now. Dear me.
I sometimes wonder why we bother watching rugby any more, may as well just base opinions on stats and nothing else. DVDM is an exciting runner but as Sgt has said numerous times his defensive positioning is terrible and no stat will alter that.
Soul Requiem- Posts : 6568
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
I live in the scrums, sometimes I wait where the last one was and hope the next one happens there also, but even I know that DVDM isn’t that bad a defender. Adams is probably the only winger that is on tour that is stronger defensively.
Having said that, Chris “the hardest working man in world rugby” Harris is an absolute defensive machine. If you play Duhan outside a centre he’s not used to he may not be as comfortable. Likewise he gets a lot of help from Hogg.
A lot of these 50/50 calls could be based on how that player plays with the nailed on starters.
Having said that, Chris “the hardest working man in world rugby” Harris is an absolute defensive machine. If you play Duhan outside a centre he’s not used to he may not be as comfortable. Likewise he gets a lot of help from Hogg.
A lot of these 50/50 calls could be based on how that player plays with the nailed on starters.
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Soul Requiem wrote:No 7&1/2 wrote:Are we saying that Anthony Watson is weak defensively now. Dear me.
I sometimes wonder why we bother watching rugby any more, may as well just base opinions on stats and nothing else. DVDM is an exciting runner but as Sgt has said numerous times his defensive positioning is terrible and no stat will alter that.
Wiothout evidence tho its just an assertion - and as above in the tour so far watson has med far worse and more costly positioning errors
Yes its a weak point of Duhans and yes in the 6N he dropped a huge clanger but on this tour - zero evidence
Its simply ( IMO ) another of those myths that build up around players that has a small basis in truth but gets built up to something it isnt
What evidence do yo have for this lack of defensive positioning?
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Soul Requiem wrote:No 7&1/2 wrote:Are we saying that Anthony Watson is weak defensively now. Dear me.
I sometimes wonder why we bother watching rugby any more, may as well just base opinions on stats and nothing else. DVDM is an exciting runner but as Sgt has said numerous times his defensive positioning is terrible and no stat will alter that.
Ok forget about stats, provide evidence to qualify both your sweeping statements about this terrible defensive positioning of DvdM
flyhalffactory- Posts : 3297
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Flyhalf - dreadful clangor in the 6 N - one.
I wonder how many games they have seen him play. Yo have to remember he only has half a dozen caps. Stepping up from the pro 14 to internationals is a big step and he will improve - as we have seen already in this series IMO
I wonder how many games they have seen him play. Yo have to remember he only has half a dozen caps. Stepping up from the pro 14 to internationals is a big step and he will improve - as we have seen already in this series IMO
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
TJ wrote:Flyhalf - dreadful clangor in the 6 N - one.
I wonder how many games they have seen him play. Yo have to remember he only has half a dozen caps. Stepping up from the pro 14 to internationals is a big step and he will improve - as we have seen already in this series IMO
Compadre, it wasn't a huge error, he was trying to cover both wing and OC, it was built up to be more than it was, not really any worse that Watson yesterday. All this perceived "poor positioning" was built on that. He's never going to be the best but he's not the poor defender that the "herd mentality" cling onto
flyhalffactory- Posts : 3297
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
He has terrible defensive positioning, it's his major flaw. Some of the positions he ends up in are truly odd.
The assumption that we've has not seen him play because we don't rate his defence is quite comical.
To be fair, if he had a sound defence, he'd probably be the best wing in the world.
The assumption that we've has not seen him play because we don't rate his defence is quite comical.
To be fair, if he had a sound defence, he'd probably be the best wing in the world.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Fly half - IMO it wad a huge clanger - out of position then dived in and was stepped. Really two errors
Sgt - so how much have you seen him play and can you describe or point to a bit of video of his positioning being so poor?
Sgt - so how much have you seen him play and can you describe or point to a bit of video of his positioning being so poor?
TJ- Posts : 8645
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Go back as far as the Japan game were Matsushima turned him inside out on a number of occasions......hardly Kolbe.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)
Sgt_Pooly wrote:He has terrible defensive positioning, it's his major flaw. Some of the positions he ends up in are truly odd.
The assumption that we've has not seen him play because we don't rate his defence is quite comical.
To be fair, if he had a sound defence, he'd probably be the best wing in the world.
Er no on the last point.
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