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Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)

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Fluxy
thebandwagonsociety
Sharkey06
Cyril
tigertattie
Soul Requiem
jimbopip
lostinwales
Sgt_Pooly
flyhalffactory
The Oracle
TJ
No 7&1/2
LordDowlais
R!skysports
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Post by R!skysports Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:23 am

First topic message reminder :

Hi All

I thought would be quite fun to see who has put their had up for a test spot and if anyone has gone backwards. This is based just on Lions performances (and I know this will change (if) more matches are played

So putting hands straight up

H Watson
Bigger
Rory Sutherland
Hogg
Williams
Itoje
Luke Cowan Dickie
Harris
Adams
VdMerwe
Price



Walking to the door
Vunipola
Murray
Farrell


Last edited by R!skysports on Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:45 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Updating teams)

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Post by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:32 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Go back as far as the Japan game were Matsushima turned him inside out on a number of occasions......hardly Kolbe.

Matsusghima is a very good winger adn I have no idea what you are talking about because that simply did not happen. Like to point to a video?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:35 pm

Lions Japan is a decent recent example.

You could very rightly say he was playing with an outside centre not in the defensive class of Harris however.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:40 pm

My latest performance related has altered a touch.

Sutherland George furlong
Itoje Henderson
Beirne Curry
Simmonds
Price
Farrell
Adams henshaw Harris Watson Hogg.

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Post by Cyril Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:42 pm

This idea that the big SA wing is only new to internationals and his defence will improve is surely a moot point. He’s not on the tour to improve his defence to a decent level. He’s here to do a job. That he needs a familiar centre around is also going down the route of Russell needing a side to be built around him. You’re not going to get that the Lions. It’s not a training session.

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Post by flyhalffactory Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:45 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Go back as far as the Japan game were Matsushima turned him inside out on a number of occasions......hardly Kolbe.

I'd suggest you look at that again. There was one occasion not a number of occasions and if you think his positioning was at fault then I'll go through it with you. Even Tandy and Gatland agreed he was sucked into a 15:15 drift defence (not 14:1 or 13:2) that was way too tight, that wasn't entirely his fault, if he had stayed on the wing there was a massive hole for the Japanese backs to exploit. A long drift defence especially 15:15 should have cover behind the drift usually by the BR & flankers
By the way SA born Kotaro Matsushima only 26 who was called into the SA U20s but left for Suntory & Japan was a star of the last two WCs, phenomenal pace and now a standout player for ASM Clermont. Just to remind you DvdM turned, tracked and caught him.


Last edited by flyhalffactory on Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by flyhalffactory Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lions Japan is a decent recent example.

You could very rightly say he was playing with an outside centre not in the defensive class of Harris however.

Ok tell us about it. You spouting it was a recent example doesn't mean a thing, but you explaining his positioning faux pas in the Japan match in detail, then we can discuss it
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:59 pm

That's only one game against Japan were he had multiple problems mind.

I see issues pretty much every time I watch him to be fair, because it's a problem in his game. His positioning is poor and he turns like the titanic. If we can hide his defence and keep him away from Kolbe, he could be useful.


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Post by flyhalffactory Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:06 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:That's only one game against Japan were he had multiple problems mind.

I see issues pretty much every time I watch him to be fair, because it's a problem in his game. His positioning is poor and he turns like the titanic. If we can hide his defence and keep him away from Kolbe, he could be useful.


Ok Sarge
Tell us when in the Japan game he had all these poor positioning instances, if you are so sure then get onto you tube and give us the links.
Ok sounds fair?
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Post by R!skysports Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:11 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:That's only one game against Japan were he had multiple problems mind.

I see issues pretty much every time I watch him to be fair, because it's a problem in his game. His positioning is poor and he turns like the titanic. If we can hide his defence and keep him away from Kolbe, he could be useful.


Well thankfully Gatland seems to rate him. You now seem to be quote all these times he has been caught out and not been able to show any evidence

Turns like the titanic........really, not remember any getting past him that he did not track back and catch

You have an issue with him, fine, but I think you are taking some small points and blowing them all out of proportion, then forgetting Watson had a very poor game defensibly, so poor that it was even quoted by Gatland....

Time to move on I think

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:11 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:That's only one game against Japan were he had multiple problems mind.

I see issues pretty much every time I watch him to be fair, because it's a problem in his game. His positioning is poor and he turns like the titanic. If we can hide his defence and keep him away from Kolbe, he could be useful.


I'd still be surprised if he starts ahead of Watson and Adams. TBF id have Williams ahead of him too. I think Hogg is pretty concrete to start at full back.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:12 pm

Like I'm going to trawl around YouTube to please you! Lol.

I watch the games, I make observations. If you disagree, no problem.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:13 pm

I really like him actually, I'm a huge fan. His defence is a massive worry as a Lions fan though.

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Post by R!skysports Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:17 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:That's only one game against Japan were he had multiple problems mind.

I see issues pretty much every time I watch him to be fair, because it's a problem in his game. His positioning is poor and he turns like the titanic. If we can hide his defence and keep him away from Kolbe, he could be useful.


I'd still be surprised if he starts ahead of Watson and Adams. TBF id have Williams ahead of him too. I think Hogg is pretty concrete to start at full back.

I actually think he would be a great bench option, but depending on the split might not


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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:20 pm

In a 7 1 Risky?

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Post by flyhalffactory Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:28 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Like I'm going to trawl around YouTube to please you! Lol.

I watch the games, I make observations. If you disagree, no problem.

Yep. Thought so.

So as you can't qualify your statements with examples.

So he has got a good defence, the stats show during the last 2 seasons he has a good defence, his stats wouldn't be so consistently good if he didn't have good and improving positioning & awareness, he's a fair chunk but he's got great balance on left & right pegs & can turn pretty nifty as can be seen in the Japan match. Plus he's now the home nations most destructive runner
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Post by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:28 pm

I'd start Adams. Williams and Hogg. If 3 backs on the bench Duhan would be good but probably only two so that will be a SH and a utility back

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Post by R!skysports Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:33 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:In a 7 1 Risky?

Think it will be a 6 / 2 rather than a 7 / 1 myself

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:33 pm

Who the hell has time to waste trawling through youtube for the sake of a forum?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:33 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Like I'm going to trawl around YouTube to please you! Lol.

I watch the games, I make observations. If you disagree, no problem.

Yep. Thought so.

So as you can't qualify your statements with examples.

So he has got a good defence, the stats show during the last 2 seasons he has a good defence, his stats wouldn't be so consistently good if he didn't have good and improving positioning & awareness, he's a fair chunk but he's got great balance on left & right pegs & can turn pretty nifty as can be seen in the Japan match. Plus he's now the home nations most destructive runner

Me not trawling YouTube doesn't prove you're right, you seem to think you've won something here.

My opinion is he has a terrible positioning and he turns slowly....which causes issues. You don't think this....Good for you

If you think tackling stats mean you're a good defender, good for you. (Hint....they don't).

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:34 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Who the hell has time to waste trawling through youtube for the sake of a forum?

Haha....I know! There's a football game on tonight don't you know Smile

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Post by flyhalffactory Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:40 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:If you think tackling stats mean you're a good defender, good for you. (Hint....they don't).

Sarge
I'm not going to do this anymore with you as the powers to be will delete my posts or ban me.
Suffice to say I didn't mention tackles or missed tackles stats, I said stats. Which kinda says it all
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:42 pm

It must have been another poster going on about tackling stats.

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Post by The Oracle Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:47 pm

That escalated quickly!
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Post by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:55 pm

Me - just a piece of evidence. when in the six nations watson tackle stats so poor compared to Duhans it says something.

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Post by Cyril Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:57 pm

Lovely Lions togetherness!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:57 pm

It means Duhan is too busy facing the wrong way to even miss a tackle Wink

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:18 pm

What are peoples thoughts on locks. I've seen a lot of people go with Henderson Itoje, probably the majority. I. Stuck on bench. Was thinking Lawes but tbh more pulled towards either Hill or shock horror Beard at the moment.

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Post by The Oracle Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:What are peoples thoughts on locks. I've seen a lot of people go with Henderson Itoje, probably the majority. I. Stuck on bench. Was thinking Lawes but tbh more pulled towards either Hill or shock horror Beard at the moment.

Beard and a returning AWJ thumbsup
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:28 pm

Lol.

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Post by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:03 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:What are peoples thoughts on locks. I've seen a lot of people go with Henderson Itoje, probably the majority. I. Stuck on bench. Was thinking Lawes but tbh more pulled towards either Hill or shock horror Beard at the moment.

Jonny gray!

Itoje and a n other. IMO none of the other options look great.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:45 pm

Dont think he's in the squad tj.

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Post by TJ Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:47 pm

I know. BUt he should be ;-)

Lock is a bit of an issue with IMO no standout candidates. lawes looked poor and gave away stupid penalties. Henderson OK but not hugely impressive. Even Itoje seemed below his best. Beard I don't know and not spotted doing anything - has he played yet?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:32 pm

Yes hes played.

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Post by Sharkey06 Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:31 pm

In the second row itoje is nailed on because of what he has done for England and on the last Lions tour - Gatland will have pre picked the spine of the Lions team before the tour started and is loyal to his picks. I also think it is telling that he picked Hill who has not been an England regular but has done well for Exeter. and I thin he sees him as able to counter the SA bulk in Etzebeth and de Jager or whoever makes it Lawes I see as a 6 option for the tests along with Beirne, Henderson looks like the bench option.

A forwards view on the long wing debate we have had - Josh Adams looks like th best finisher in the squad, VDMerwe looks to be the X factor player but with faulst, LRZ not going to get near the test team as he offers little but pace, Williams has history with Gatland and for the Lions and Hogg fighting it out for the 15 shirt. The eay choice is Hogg, Adams and Willimas which is what I expect to see in the 1st test, but time will tell.

Barring injury I am expecting to see Sutherland, Owens, Furlong, Itoje, Hill, Beirne, Watson, Falatau, Murray, Biggar, Farrell, Harris, Adams, Williamd, Hogg.

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Post by R!skysports Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:53 am

Which Lions players have put their hand up for Test selection? From the Independent

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/rugbyleague/which-lions-players-have-put-their-hand-up-for-test-selection/ar-AAM1scl?ocid=msedgntp

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Post by LordDowlais Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:08 am

The locks would be Itoje and Henderson, but I would not be surprised to see Itoje and Beard start, I think Beard will the bench option at least.

Biggar starts at 10, Murray at 9, Adams on the wing, all the rest are all up for grabs if you ask me.

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Post by The Oracle Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:49 am

On reflection my test team, with a few undecideds, thus far would be:

Hogg
DvdM
Harris/Daly
Henshaw (if fit)
Adams
Biggar
Price

Wyn Jones/Sutherland
Any of the hookers but LCD and George look strongest at present
Furlong
Itoje
Henderson
Beirne
Watson
Faletau/Conan


Last edited by The Oracle on Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:59 am

You mean Daly rather than Slade?

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Post by thebandwagonsociety Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:03 am

I'm surprised Conan is in the running for the no.8 jersey. Thought the simmonds love-in would put pay to that.
Not sure Furlong has done anything earn the jersey (tour performance only).
Henderson is at max a midweek captain based on how Gatland has lined things up, surely.
I've a sneaking suspicion that Gatland could got Aki/Harris in the centres.

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Post by The Oracle Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:23 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:You mean Daly rather than Slade?

Haha! Yes, of course. Senior moment there. Not sure how I mixed them up Shocked I’ll update it.
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Post by TJ Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:09 pm

LordDowlais wrote:The locks would be Itoje and Henderson, but I would not be surprised to see Itoje and Beard start, I think Beard will the bench option at least.

Biggar starts at 10, Murray at 9, Adams on the wing, all the rest are all up for grabs if you ask me.

Hogg and Furlong as well. Murray is not nailed on at 9 - he needs a good display in the next game to oust Price

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Post by TJ Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:13 pm

The Oracle wrote:On reflection my test team, with a few undecideds, thus far would be:

Hogg
DvdM
Harris/Daly
Henshaw (if fit)
Adams
Biggar
Price

Wyn Jones/Sutherland
Any of the hookers but LCD and George look strongest at present
Furlong
Itoje
Henderson
Beirne
Watson
Faletau/Conan

Can't argue too much with that Simmonds has impressed me but is he too small to play with Watson?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:49 am

I just can't fathom how we can start Simmonds, I still don't get how he's touring.

Has to Faletau with Conan as backup for me. You need some physicality at 8, especially against SA.

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Post by Fluxy Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:56 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I just can't fathom how we can start Simmonds, I still don't get how he's touring.

Has to Faletau with Conan as backup for me. You need some physicality at 8, especially against SA.

So it was you all along, the individual that has been conjuring up all of the 'too small' nonsense articles... Run

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:13 am

Haha...nothing to do with size, he's just not physical. Watson is small, but he's physical. I can't see how we can compensate for Simmonds in the rest of the squad.

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Post by TJ Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:38 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Haha...nothing to do with size, he's just not physical. Watson is small, but he's physical. I can't see how we can compensate for Simmonds in the rest of the squad.

Its a tricky one.  i was really impressed with his play and his pace but can we afford two smallish back rows?  Mind you aus did with pocock and hooper

I would really like to see him on the pitch but like yo I find it hard to find a place for him

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Post by MichaelT Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:45 am

TJ wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Haha...nothing to do with size, he's just not physical. Watson is small, but he's physical. I can't see how we can compensate for Simmonds in the rest of the squad.

Its a tricky one.  i was really impressed with his play and his pace but can we afford two smallish back rows?  Mind you aus did with pocock and hooper

I would really like to see him on the pitch but like yo I find it hard to find a place for him

You have to consider horses for courses then for Simmonds. If we were touring Australia a back-row of Curry, Watson and Simmonds would look more suitable for a faster game out of who has been picked, but against South Africa you have to match that physicality, so one of the two (Watson or Simmonds), with Watson far more suitable.

I am not sure Beirne is physical enough but I haven't seen anyone else say that. Just worried he won't cope well with three tests on the bounce v South Africa.

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Post by Tramptastic Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:50 am

It always comes down to the discussion of how you play an opponent - match them at their strengths, thereby maybe playing in to their game or play around their strengths (The Japan Method).

I'd argue with the boks if you try and match them you've lost. You can't out bok a bok. Carry low, carry smart, dont go alone and dont get disconnected and carry in to space. Gatland has clearer picked forwards who are good ball players, not physical monsters so the whole "simmonds is too small" is nonsense if they play for space, not physicality. If they pick simmonds and plan on trying to win an arm wrestle, they'll lose.

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Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only) - Page 2 Empty Re: Your Current Test Lions (tour performance only)

Post by LordDowlais Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:56 am

When Gatland was in charge of Wales, we had the measure of them, with Gatlands pragmatic ways we always seemed to nullify their strengths, and crucial to doing it were players like Faletau and AWJ. Also having an accurate goal kicker who also does the basics right, like taking the high ball, first up tackling, stretching their back line also defence is key against the big Boks.

Biggar and Faletau are taylor made for playing against the Boks, but I am not picking the team.

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Post by MichaelT Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:05 am

Gatlands Wales played South Africa 14 times and won 5. I am not sure that is having the measure of them during his run. When South Africa had their dip after RWC 2015 until Erasmus took over there was a good deal of success, but most teams beat South Africa then. This is a completely different team with their mindset, tactics, selection policy and form.

Tramptastic wrote:It always comes down to the discussion of how you play an opponent - match them at their strengths, thereby maybe playing in to their game or play around their strengths (The Japan Method).

I also think the Japan method works for Japan because they have better half-backs for a quicker game, which is something - particularly scrum-half - we are lacking. Conor Murray doesn't worry the fringe defence, Gareth Davies and Ali Price aren't consistent enough but are quicker. Farrell and Biggar aren't running threats and Russell looks to be injured. Not sure Smith is the answer either but he's been playing and is there for cover for the first two now I feel. With the lack of remaining games, he might not even get a match day squad place.


Last edited by MichaelT on Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:08 am; edited 1 time in total

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