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Prem Round 2

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WELL-PAST-IT
No 7&1/2
TightHEAD
doctor_grey
lostinwales
Cumbrian
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Post by Geordie Tue 21 Sep 2021, 11:43 am

Friday 24th
Gloucester v Leicester
19.45

Saturday 25th
Bath v Newcastle
Exeter v Northampton
Quins x Worcester
Wasps v Bristol
All 3pm KO

Sunday 26th
LI v Sale
3pm KO

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Post by propdavid_london Thu 23 Sep 2021, 11:02 am

Looking forward to round 2 - first time I have seen a live game for a long time.
Hard to base predictions based off only 1 game, but if teams continue to play in the same vein then I would expect to see -
Wins from -
Tigers
Bath/Newcastle 50/50 - maybe home team to edge it, but will be tough without Spencer.
Exeter to respond
Quins to win a close game
Bristol to respond (but Wasps are an unknown at this point)
and Sale to have too much for LI.

Of course when the teams are out I will want to change all of these predictions!

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 23 Sep 2021, 12:02 pm

Steve Borthwick has named the Leicester Tigers matchday squad for the trip to Gloucester on Friday in Round 2 of the Gallagher Premiership season.
The Tigers head coach has named an unchanged front row from Round 1, with club captain Ellis Genge, Nic Dolly and Dan Cole named to start.
In the second row, Harry Wells is joined by Eli Snyman as the Zimbabwe-born lock makes his first start for Leicester.
George Martin, Tommy Reffell and Hanro Liebenberg complete the Tigers pack in an unchanged back row. 
Jack van Poortvliet, who came off the bench last weekend at Mattioli Woods Welford Road, partners George Ford at half-back, with Dan Kelly and Matt Scott retained in the Leicester midfield. 
Freddie Steward is the full-back in the Leicester back-three alongside wings Nemani Nadolo and Harry Potter.
After making their Tigers debuts on the opening weekend of the season, Tom-Cowan Dickie and Francois van Wyk are joined by Joe Heyes as the replacement front-rowers on the Leicester bench.
Calum Green and Ollie Chessum are the fellow forwards included on the bench, with Ben Youngs, Freddie Burns and Guy Porter the replacement backs.

Previewing the trip to Gloucester, Tigers Head Coach Steve Borthwick said: “There are some great clubs grounds we get the opportunity to go to in this league and Kingsholm is one of them. It will be an intense encounter and intense atmosphere on Friday night.”
Speaking about his team’s Round 2 opponents, Borthwick added: “They’re a dangerous side, with quality throughout their squad and we are aware it will be a challenge defensively for us.
“Gloucester like to get the ball moving and will want to play to their strengths in front of their home crowd on Friday night.”
STARTING XV
15 Freddie Steward [36]
14 Harry Potter [17]
13 Matt Scott [26]
12 Dan Kelly [21]
11 Nemani Nadolo [17]
10 George Ford [106]
9 Jack van Poortvliet [22]
1 Ellis Genge (c) [90]
2 Nic Dolly [4]
3 Dan Cole [265]
4 Harry Wells [125]
5 Eli Snyman [1]
6 George Martin [18]
7 Tommy Reffell [48]
8 Hanro Liebenberg (vc) [37]
REPLACEMENTS
16 Tom Cowan-Dickie [1]
17 Francois van Wyk [1]
18 Joe Heyes [72]
19 Calum Green [61]
20 Ollie Chessum [9]
21 Ben Youngs [265]
22 Freddie Burns [77]
23 Guy Porter [18]

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 23 Sep 2021, 12:03 pm

JVP and Snyman rotate in to start the game. Borthwick does like his rotation policy. Good to see Heyes back on the bench though I had hoped it would be alongside Leatigaga as opposed to van Wyk.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 23 Sep 2021, 12:07 pm

Gloucester Rugby:

15. Kyle Moyle

14. Tom Seabrook *

13. Billy Twelvetrees

12. Mark Atkinson

11. Ollie Thorley *

10. Lloyd Evans *

9. Ben Meehan
1. Harry Elrington

2. Jack Singleton

3. Fraser Balmain

4. Ed Slater

5. Andrew Davidson

6. Ben Morgan

7. Lewis Ludlow (c) *

8. Ruan Ackermann

16. Henry Walker *

17. Jamal Ford-Robinson

18. Kirill Gotovtsev

19. Freddie Clarke *

20. Wian Conradie

21. Jack Clement *

22. Stephen Varney *

23. Adam Hastings

*Denotes Academy player or graduate from the Gloucester Rugby Academy

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Post by king_carlos Thu 23 Sep 2021, 4:14 pm

I'm very happy with that selection for Tigers. Particularly delighted that JvP is starting. Lenny needs a rocket up him, hopefully getting benched does that for him. He used to up his game significantly when dropped to the bench behind Sam Harrison so hopefully this does similar.

I'd expect Tigers to beat that Gloucester side given how we performed on Saturday. Improving our away record is an important step in going from top 6 to playoff contenders so this is the type of game we now need to be winning to keep pushing on.

I'm delighted to see Ben Morgan back playing but that Gloucester back row looks imbalanced to me, I'd hope for Tigers to get an upper hand there. Jordy Reid is a player I rate highly and often think Gloucester look more balanced with him in the back row.

Jack Clement is a big talent though so it will be exciting to see him off the bench.

Dolly vs Singleton will be interesting at the scrum. I thought Dolly did brilliantly against Chiefs but there were a couple of scrums in the second half when Tigers prop didn't get the upper hand which Dolly couldn't get the strike during, that was against Jack Innard who is also a lighter hooker. Singleton has a reputation as a powerful scrummager so I'll be interested in how Dolly goes against him.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 23 Sep 2021, 5:28 pm

Broadly agree Carlos though Benny was more creative than we've seen him in a while Vs Chiefs. He did look a bit rusty but there was significantly less kicking and more intent to run. The two of them should really push each other on.

Dolly really did tire Vs Chiefs. Very noticeable in the scrum when he just couldn't hook the ball a couple of times as you say though I think Yeandle might have been on by that point and was perhaps showing what experience gets you in the front row. I'm sure the coaches will have been working on it with him. Tom Youngs injury is definitely a blow.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 23 Sep 2021, 6:02 pm

I thought Tigers looked to use the ball more and as such Lenny did a bit more. He had some good touches such as the pass for Potter's try and a perfect box kick that was hung just outside the 22 to pressure Chiefs. I also like how wide of the ruck Ford plays when partnered with Youngs. It naturally stretches the defence.

Overall I was disappointed though. 2 dire kicks (one straight out on the full and one rolling dead), caught at the base during a promising attack. He's playing way below his ability and JvP looks the better player on merit to me currently.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 23 Sep 2021, 7:01 pm

I'm happy as it's the first game of the season for Benny to make those slip ups. There was more positive than negative. If we're talking week 3 and he's making those errors then that's a different kettle of fish. He needs to be match sharp by then.

JVP looked sensational in pre season but pretty average off the bench last weekend. The game was breaking up when he came on but not in a way that really allowed him to attack and he didn't force the issue or set the tempo. I'm hoping to see pre season JVP tomorrow night with the sniping runs tearing defences open. They both had 7/10 performances first week but now we need more.

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Post by Poorfour Fri 24 Sep 2021, 12:17 pm

Quins v Worcester:

Harlequins Starting XV
1. Joe Marler (226)
2. Jack Walker (1)
3. Simon Kerrod (45)
4. Matt Symons (64)
5. Dino Lamb (49)
6. Tom Lawday (40)
7. Jack Kenningham (13)
8. Alex Dombrandt (77) - Captain
9. Danny Care (307)
10. Tommy Allan (1)
11. Cadan Murley (49)
12. Andre Esterhuizen (20)
13. Joe Marchant (114)
14. Louis Lynagh (14)
15. Tyrone Green (22)

Impact Players
16. Sam Riley (2)
17. Fin Baxter (2)
18. Will Collier (188)
19. Hugh Tizard (14)
20. James Chisholm (112)
21. Scott Steele (16)
22. Huw Jones (1)
23. Luke Northmore (28)

Unavailable for selection:
Marcus Smith, Wilco Louw, Viliami Taulani

Unavailable due to injury:
Aaron Morris, Christian Scotland-Williamson, Joe Gray, Jordan Els, Paul Lasike, Stephan Lewies, Will Evans

And Worcester Warriors | 15 Jamie Shillcock, 14 Noah Heward, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 12 Francois Venter, 11 Perry Humphreys, 10 Owen Williams, 9 Willi Heinz (CC), 1 Ethan Waller, 2 Scott Baldwin, 3 Christian Judge, 4 Kyle Hatherell, 5 Justin Clegg, 6 Ted Hill (CC), 7 Sam Lewis, 8 Matt Kvesic.

Replacements | 16 Niall Annett, 17 Marc Thomas, 18 Jack Owlett, 19 Matt Garvey, 20 Graham Kitchener, 21 Will Chudley, 22 Billy Searle, 23 Melani Nanai.

The midfield clash should be interesting, but all in all I feel that Quins have the edge elsewhere, and particularly in the pack with Marler back in the starting lineup and Baxter, Chisholm and Collier adding some heft off the bench.
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Post by Cumbrian Fri 24 Sep 2021, 12:27 pm

Newcastle Falcons team to face Bath Rugby (Saturday, 3pm, the Recreation Ground)

15 Tom Penny, 14 Adam Radwan, 13 Ben Stevenson, 12 Pete Lucock, 11 Iwan Stephens, 10 Will Haydon-Wood, 9 Louis Schreuder; 1 Adam Brocklebank, 2 George McGuigan, 3 Richard Palframan, 4 Greg Peterson, 5 Sean Robinson, 6 Philip van der Walt, 7 Will Welch (captain), 8 Carl Fearns.

Replacements: 16 Jamie Blamire, 17 Kyle Cooper, 18 Mark Tampin, 19 Marco Fuser, 20 Gary Graham, 21 Cameron Nordli-Kelemeti, 22 Brett Connon, 23 George Wacokecoke.




Bath Rugby: 15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Semesa Rokoduguni, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Ojomoh, 11 Will Muir, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Ollie Fox; 1 Juan Schoeman, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Johannes Jonker, 4 Mike Williams, 5 Charlie Ewels (captain), 6 Miles Reid, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Josh Bayliss.

Replacements: 16 Jacques du Toit, 17 Beno Obano, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Tom Ellis, 20 Jaco Coetzee, 21 Max Green, 22 Will Butt, 23 Max Clark.
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Post by Poorfour Fri 24 Sep 2021, 12:29 pm

Falcons / Bath could be a good game - Newcastle put up a strong showing against Quins last week and have the talent to score tries.
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Post by Geordie Fri 24 Sep 2021, 12:30 pm

Interesting to see we've gone for Haydon Wood at 10 over Connon. I had a feeling Connon would be eased out this season for Wood and Louie Johnson....

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 24 Sep 2021, 1:04 pm

Johnson looks a talent, I was watching a highlights reel of him the other day. It is good to have two exciting young tens coming through, I don't know whether they will ever trouble the England selectors, but they will hopefully breathe some fresh life into our backline.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 24 Sep 2021, 1:05 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Interesting to see we've gone for Haydon Wood at 10 over Connon.  I had a feeling Connon would be eased out this season for Wood and Louie Johnson....

Plenty of young EQ talent in those backlines. The face off of the young 10s is probably the highlight but Muir Vs Radwan is a close second.

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 24 Sep 2021, 1:11 pm

Track should still be half decent down at the Rec too, so we may indeed see some running rugby
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Post by Geordie Fri 24 Sep 2021, 1:20 pm

Cumbrian wrote:Johnson looks a talent,  I was watching a highlights reel of him the other day.  It is good to have two exciting young tens coming through, I don't know whether they will ever trouble the England selectors, but they will hopefully breathe some fresh life into our backline.

I think Louie Johnson has a complete game (runner, passer and kicker )and hes 6ft so has some size about him aswell. ...so it just depends how he develops....
Hell get plenty of gametime this season I would think.

Haydon wood is a wee cracker aswell though. Future is bright....and then we have 2 cracking young 9s coming through well Kelemeti on the bench...

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Post by Geordie Fri 24 Sep 2021, 1:21 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Interesting to see we've gone for Haydon Wood at 10 over Connon.  I had a feeling Connon would be eased out this season for Wood and Louie Johnson....

Plenty of young EQ talent in those backlines. The face off of the young 10s is probably the highlight but Muir Vs Radwan is a close second.

Yes Sam...lots of negativity about no relegation...but this is clearly one of the plus points...teams are playing their talent....

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Post by lostinwales Fri 24 Sep 2021, 1:25 pm

Will be very interesting to se how Bailey works out. From the U20's he really does seem to have something about him

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Post by propdavid_london Fri 24 Sep 2021, 1:31 pm

Poorfour wrote:Quins v Worcester:

Harlequins Starting XV
1. Joe Marler (226)
2. Jack Walker (1)
3. Simon Kerrod (45)
4. Matt Symons (64)
5. Dino Lamb (49)
6. Tom Lawday (40)
7. Jack Kenningham (13)
8. Alex Dombrandt (77) - Captain
9. Danny Care (307)
10. Tommy Allan (1)
11. Cadan Murley (49)
12. Andre Esterhuizen (20)
13. Joe Marchant (114)
14. Louis Lynagh (14)
15. Tyrone Green (22)

Impact Players
16. Sam Riley (2)
17. Fin Baxter (2)
18. Will Collier (188)
19. Hugh Tizard (14)
20. James Chisholm  (112)
21. Scott Steele (16)
22. Huw Jones (1)
23. Luke Northmore (28)

Unavailable for selection:
Marcus Smith, Wilco Louw, Viliami Taulani

Unavailable due to injury:
Aaron Morris, Christian Scotland-Williamson, Joe Gray, Jordan Els, Paul Lasike, Stephan Lewies, Will Evans

And Worcester Warriors | 15 Jamie Shillcock, 14 Noah Heward, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 12 Francois Venter, 11 Perry Humphreys, 10 Owen Williams, 9 Willi Heinz (CC), 1 Ethan Waller, 2 Scott Baldwin, 3 Christian Judge, 4 Kyle Hatherell, 5 Justin Clegg, 6 Ted Hill (CC), 7 Sam Lewis, 8 Matt Kvesic.

Replacements | 16 Niall Annett, 17 Marc Thomas, 18 Jack Owlett, 19 Matt Garvey, 20 Graham Kitchener, 21 Will Chudley, 22 Billy Searle, 23 Melani Nanai.

The midfield clash should be interesting, but all in all I feel that Quins have the edge elsewhere, and particularly in the pack with Marler back in the starting lineup and Baxter, Chisholm and Collier adding some heft off the bench.
Not sure who covers 10 if Allen gets injured! Tyrone Green? Or will we see Lynagh channelling the pedigree and step in at 10?

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Post by Poorfour Fri 24 Sep 2021, 2:01 pm

Green is technically a 10, and Quins experimented with Marchant playing 10 (for a few minutes at a time) at the tail end of last season. Lynagh played most of his schoolboy rugby at 15, so my expectation is that Green would go to 10, Marchant to the wing, Lynagh to fullback and Northmore to 13.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 24 Sep 2021, 2:28 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Interesting to see we've gone for Haydon Wood at 10 over Connon.  I had a feeling Connon would be eased out this season for Wood and Louie Johnson....

Plenty of young EQ talent in those backlines. The face off of the young 10s is probably the highlight but Muir Vs Radwan is a close second.

Yes Sam...lots of negativity about no relegation...but this is clearly one of the plus points...teams are playing their talent....

Partly relegation but I think more the lowering of the salary cap. You can't go and sign experience back up in every position unless you are willing to dilute your first string side in which case you're going to struggle. As such a lot of teams who've been investing in their academy because the RFU have incentivised it are not using the guys who'd normally be development squad level and probably five to ten years ago be on loan in the Championship as back up players most might be third choice but some second. It should be good for the game long term and should give the clubs a real local ethos which has to be good for increasing fan numbers. Sure everyone wants to see a big name but if there's a local lad playing you're going out your way to look out for them.

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Post by Poorfour Fri 24 Sep 2021, 2:56 pm

It's interesting that a lot of clubs that have been forced to rely on home grown talent have prospered because of it - Exeter, obviously.

Quins' first title came with a squad that had been forced by relegation to bring through a whole generation of Academy talent and 8 of the starters were Academy players (plus two more whose first senior contracts were at Quins). Our second title came with 7 home grown starters and two more who received their first professional contracts with Quins (one of whom in each category featured in both finals...).

I am pretty sure Saints had a similar experience following their relegation and re-promotion, and Tigers resurgence has come alongside bringing academy talent through.

Sometimes, though, you just have to be in the right place at the right time. Marcus Smith was thrown in to being the starting 10 at 18 following that horrific freak injury to Demitri Catrakilis. Jack Kenningham's meteoric rise to the England squad came about because of an injury to Will Evans, and Louis Lynagh got his chance and only marginally less rapid rise because of injuries to Nathan Earle and others. Some are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them...
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Post by doctor_grey Fri 24 Sep 2021, 5:08 pm

I think you are quite right. For Saints, it was quite a different club that came back up after relegation. It even included a young splashy guy named Chris Ashton. I would also say that after Saints abysmal 2019-2020 season (Covid season number one), a lot of younger players were brought into the squad for 2020-2021, in which Saints were at least competitive in most matches. Not sure if it is true, but many Saints supporters believe Saints were the youngest squad in the Premiership last season. Certainly, Saints had plenty of young players.

Without the relegation pressure to get wins quick by bringing in players, many teams did invest in their youth. Let's hope the trend continues.

Poorfour wrote:Some are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them...
How does that apply to all of us?

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Post by Poorfour Fri 24 Sep 2021, 5:13 pm

Didn't say it applied to *all* of us, only some of us.

As a measure of how the rduced cap has changed things: tomorrow's Quins matchday XXIII has 5 current Academy players in it (albeit two of them are also Premiership medal winners and current England training squad members).
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Post by king_carlos Fri 24 Sep 2021, 5:17 pm

I'm more in the Sam camp of thinking that the reduced cap would have forced more use of academies anyway.

Tigers squad a couple of years ago was a case study in how using your academy poorly in a salary capped system will ruin you. We hadn't been bringing through talent well enough for a long time and as such were overpaying for a lot of "solid Premiership standard" players that had no ceiling to improve beyond that point. Due to overpaying for those average overseas signings and tying up a ton of cash in internationals who played half the season there was then no room to strengthen areas of the squad such as back row that were laughably weak.

Tigers were also a decent case study in how raising the cap and introducing marquee players just drove wage inflation for solid club pros rather than driving the desired increase in quality of the league as a whole.

Now Tigers are finally using the academy and younger EQP signings (Kelly, Potter, Porter, Dolly, etc) to fill out squad depth which has freed up some cap space to invest the likes of Liebenberg, Montoya, Wiese and Nadolo who can make a significant difference to the first XV.

A Premiership with a lower salary cap, relegation and a better invested in Championship would still be the best place long term in my opinion. Sadly, I think we are heading for a ring fenced Premiership with a very high salary cap though. Time will tell whether that leads to a lot of dead rubbers with teams rotating heavily away from home.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 24 Sep 2021, 5:26 pm

Onto tonight's match it will be interesting to see how that Kingsholm 4G pitch plays on it's first Premiership outing. I'm not a massive fan of 4G at the professional level though I think they can be brilliant at a development level.

Ed Slater used to hate playing away games on 4G pitches whilst he was with Tigers after his knee issues!

The Tigers side we have out this evening should win in my opinion. The 4 strong lineout jumpers in the Tigers starting pack should be able to get an advantage at the lineout, I'd expect Genge and Cole to cause issues for Elrington and Balmain in the scrum. On top of that the Gloucester pack doesn't have much breakdown presence so I'd expect Reffell, Liebenberg and Wells to exert plenty of pressure there. I'll probably miss the first 10 or 15 minutes but should catch the rest of the game live so I'm really looking forward to it!

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 24 Sep 2021, 5:45 pm

king_carlos wrote:I'm more in the Sam camp of thinking that the reduced cap would have forced more use of academies anyway.

Tigers squad a couple of years ago was a case study in how using your academy poorly in a salary capped system will ruin you. We hadn't been bringing through talent well enough for a long time and as such were overpaying for a lot of "solid Premiership standard" players that had no ceiling to improve beyond that point. Due to overpaying for those average overseas signings and tying up a ton of cash in internationals who played half the season there was then no room to strengthen areas of the squad such as back row that were laughably weak.

Tigers were also a decent case study in how raising the cap and introducing marquee players just drove wage inflation for solid club pros rather than driving the desired increase in quality of the league as a whole.

Now Tigers are finally using the academy and younger EQP signings (Kelly, Potter, Porter, Dolly, etc) to fill out squad depth which has freed up some cap space to invest the likes of Liebenberg, Montoya, Wiese and Nadolo who can make a significant difference to the first XV.

A Premiership with a lower salary cap, relegation and a better invested in Championship would still be the best place long term in my opinion. Sadly, I think we are heading for a ring fenced Premiership with a very high salary cap though. Time will tell whether that leads to a lot of dead rubbers with teams rotating heavily away from home.
I really can't agree a Premiership with a lower cap will be a better place to be, mate.  I believe our players are significantly undercompensated for what they put themselves through.  I think clubs need to have clear rules and real incentives to ensure talent is brought through.  There have been some potentially well-intentioned attempts to make this happen, but they clearly didn't work terribly well.  

I also think scrapping relegation was coming in one form or another.  It may come back for a while in some guise or other, but I think in the long run it will end.  When that happens the only way into the Premiership will be by a club with well backed and thought out financial plans (as opposed to just having a backer).  In American sport with no relegation, plenty of fans show up for clubs which are out of contention.  

Taking a quick look at the Saints 23 for tomorrow, I think Saints have nine academy players (I might be off by one or two), but that includes Alex Waller with his 300 club caps.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 24 Sep 2021, 6:07 pm

Poorfour wrote:Didn't say it applied to *all* of us, only some of us.

As a measure of how the rduced cap has changed things: tomorrow's Quins matchday XXIII has 5 current Academy players in it (albeit two of them are also Premiership medal winners and current England training squad members).

The academy league is effectively an under 18s league whilst most clubs designate a senior academy or development squad the actual academy level players are 18 and under. Having had a quick look you don't appear to have five players 18 and under. Kenningham and Lynagh the two in the England squad? Kenningham is 21 so too old for England under 20s.

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Post by Poorfour Fri 24 Sep 2021, 6:57 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Didn't say it applied to *all* of us, only some of us.

As a measure of how the rduced cap has changed things: tomorrow's Quins matchday XXIII has 5 current Academy players in it (albeit two of them are also Premiership medal winners and current England training squad members).

The academy league is effectively an under 18s league whilst most clubs designate a senior academy or development squad the actual academy level players are 18 and under. Having had a quick look you don't appear to have five players 18 and under. Kenningham and Lynagh the two in the England squad? Kenningham is 21 so too old for England under 20s.

No, that's not how it works. The Academy is not an U18 league.

The Salary Cap rules define an Academy player as:

Premiership Salary Cap 2021-22 wrote:“Academy Player” means any Player who:
(a) on 1 September 2021 is between 16 and 24 years old (inclusive); and
(b) whose total Salary in any Salary Cap Year has never exceeded £50,000;

Source: Premiership Salary Cap 2021-22

Kenningham, Lynagh, Riley, Tizard and Baxter are all still listed as Academy players on the Quins website, and none of them have been announced as signing new contracts in the past year, so they are still on Academy contracts:

Prem Round 2 Quins_10

It's been like that for as long as I can remember. The U18 stream into the Academy is usually known as something like the Elite Player Development Group, and players graduate from EPDG into the Academy proper, then generally stay in the Academy until they've had a season in the senior squad. I know for certain that both Quins and London Irish work that way, because we are in the catchment areas for both clubs and I have attended presentations from both.

What's different this year is that the Academy salary cap used to be £20,000 per player but it's now £50,000 as you can see above. If you look at squad sizes and subtract what the star players are rumoured to be paid, then assuming clubs are staying within the cap a typical first senior contract is likely to be in the £60-80k range. So what they've done is make it easier for clubs to keep a kid in the Academy for longer.

The Academy Salary Cap is only £100,000 but - and it's a big BUT - the Cap excludes Home Grown Academy Players, defined as:

Premiership Salary Cap 2021-22 wrote:“Home Grown Academy Player” means an Academy Player who has been a Player of the Club since they were 17 and who either (a) has never been a member of any other Club’s England Rugby Academy or (b) has been a member of his current Club’s England Rugby Academy for at least two complete calendar years prior to the current Salary Cap Year;

Premiership Salary Cap 2021-22 wrote:3.14. A Club’s Academy Salary Cap Spend must not exceed the Academy Salary Cap.
3.15. A Club’s Academy Salary Cap Spend for a Salary Cap Year is calculated by:
3.15.1. adding up all the Salary that was Paid to Academy Players; and then
3.15.2. deducting:
(a) any Excluded Salary Paid to Academy Players; and
(b) to the extent not already deducted pursuant to 3.15.2(a), any Salary that was Paid to Home Grown Academy Players.
3.16. The Academy Salary Cap is £100,000.

Taken together, that's a pretty neat incentive to grow your own.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 24 Sep 2021, 7:05 pm

Poorfour wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Didn't say it applied to *all* of us, only some of us.

As a measure of how the rduced cap has changed things: tomorrow's Quins matchday XXIII has 5 current Academy players in it (albeit two of them are also Premiership medal winners and current England training squad members).

The academy league is effectively an under 18s league whilst most clubs designate a senior academy or development squad the actual academy level players are 18 and under. Having had a quick look you don't appear to have five players 18 and under. Kenningham and Lynagh the two in the England squad? Kenningham is 21 so too old for England under 20s.

No, that's not how it works. The Academy is not an U18 league.

The Salary Cap rules define an Academy player as:

Premiership Salary Cap 2021-22 wrote:“Academy Player” means any Player who:
(a) on 1 September 2021 is between 16 and 24 years old (inclusive); and
(b) whose total Salary in any Salary Cap Year has never exceeded £50,000;

Source: Premiership Salary Cap 2021-22

Kenningham, Lynagh, Riley, Tizard and Baxter are all still listed as Academy players on the Quins website, and none of them have been announced as signing new contracts in the past year, so they are still on Academy contracts:

Prem Round 2 Quins_10

It's been like that for as long as I can remember. The U18 stream into the Academy is usually known as something like the Elite Player Development Group, and players graduate from EPDG into the Academy proper, then generally stay in the Academy until they've had a season in the senior squad. I know for certain that both Quins and London Irish work that way, because we are in the catchment areas for both clubs and I have attended presentations from both.

What's different this year is that the Academy salary cap used to be £20,000 per player but it's now £50,000 as you can see above. If you look at squad sizes and subtract what the star players are rumoured to be paid, then assuming clubs are staying within the cap a typical first senior contract is likely to be in the £60-80k range. So what they've done is make it easier for clubs to keep a kid in the Academy for longer.

The Academy Salary Cap is only £100,000 but - and it's a big BUT - the Cap excludes Home Grown Academy Players, defined as:

Premiership Salary Cap 2021-22 wrote:“Home Grown Academy Player” means an Academy Player who has been a Player of the Club since they were 17 and who either (a) has never been a member of any other Club’s England Rugby Academy or (b) has been a member of his current Club’s England Rugby Academy for at least two complete calendar years prior to the current Salary Cap Year;

Premiership Salary Cap 2021-22 wrote:3.14. A Club’s Academy Salary Cap Spend must not exceed the Academy Salary Cap.
3.15. A Club’s Academy Salary Cap Spend for a Salary Cap Year is calculated by:
 3.15.1. adding up all the Salary that was Paid to Academy Players; and then
 3.15.2. deducting:
   (a) any Excluded Salary Paid to Academy Players; and
   (b) to the extent not already deducted pursuant to 3.15.2(a), any Salary that was Paid to Home Grown Academy Players.
3.16. The Academy Salary Cap is £100,000.

Taken together, that's a pretty neat incentive to grow your own.

Fair enough you're quite right that's the salary cap definition.

If you're playing senior rugby and no longer eligible to play the in designated academy league then I'm considering them a senior player. The salary cap is all about encouraging clubs to spend longer developing players which is all for the good particularly with front rowers who aren't necessarily going to be ready at 20.

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Post by Geordie Fri 24 Sep 2021, 7:46 pm

Well let's hope this is a good one

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Post by Geordie Fri 24 Sep 2021, 7:59 pm

That Dolly looks like he could be a decent signing for rhe Tigers. Involved quite a lot and is quite a unit

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:06 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:That Dolly looks like he could be a decent signing for rhe Tigers. Involved quite a lot and is quite a unit

Still only 21 as well.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:09 pm

Dunno how the TMO has missed Thorley nearly taking Potter's head off there

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Post by Geordie Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:11 pm

Yeah...high tackle.

Some run by Nadolo

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Post by Geordie Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:12 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:That Dolly looks like he could be a decent signing for rhe Tigers. Involved quite a lot and is quite a unit

Still only 21 as well.

Is that all he is....plenty to develop aswell then. By you've got some great young kids coming through haven't you...

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:14 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:That Dolly looks like he could be a decent signing for rhe Tigers. Involved quite a lot and is quite a unit

Still only 21 as well.

Is that all he is....plenty to develop aswell then. By you've got some great young kids coming through haven't you...

We've got young Vanes a couple of years younger so there's a nice couple of young options on their way through.

That none try there perhaps showing why the tap and go penalty option isn't the best under the new laws.

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Post by Geordie Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:15 pm

So he spots that high tackle...

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Post by Geordie Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:23 pm

Nadolo will be wrecked....he's had to run twice with the ball... Laugh

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:31 pm

Why does the ref give time off when the ball falls off the tee?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:33 pm

Aye he spots the hand barely clipping the chin.

I'm sure Nadolo much prefers charging around the wife channels running over backs as opposed to last season where he spent all season running into brick walls and getting injured. Seabrook will be having nightmares about Nadolo running at him.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:34 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Why does the ref give time off when the ball falls off the tee?

Well he'd just told Ford to kick it so I think he was trying to tell Ford he'd give him chance to pop the ball back on the tee. To be fair the ball falling off twice is really bad luck.

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Post by Geordie Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:36 pm

Did anyone hear Austin Healy before the game saying he thinks academies should be scrapped. He thinks the players should be spread amongst the championship teams efc...

But dont most academy players actually have dual registration for championship sides anyway...? I know most of the Falcons academy lads are on loan with Rotherham and Doncaster

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Post by Poorfour Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:37 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Did anyone hear Austin Healy before the game saying he thinks academies should be scrapped. He thinks the players should be spread amongst the championship teams efc...

But dont most academy players actually have dual registration for championship sides anyway...? I know most of the Falcons academy lads are on loan with Rotherham and Doncaster

Heard it, discounted it. Standard practice when Austin Healey speaks.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:44 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Did anyone hear Austin Healy before the game saying he thinks academies should be scrapped. He thinks the players should be spread amongst the championship teams efc...

But dont most academy players actually have dual registration for championship sides anyway...? I know most of the Falcons academy lads are on loan with Rotherham and Doncaster

I think a 10 second clip for what was quite a detailed hypothesis probably isn't the right platform. Not sure I agree but I think he doesn't want it to get to the point where all the best young talent goes to the 13 academies and only plays for their academy team and when sent out on loan. I think Austin's argument is that they should be playing for their local clubs, county sides etc. The RFU have come out and talked about building leadership skills in players because they think the club academy system can be a little sterile.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:52 pm

Simple errors for Tigers are killing the chance to take control of a game they have every chance to win here.

It's so nice seeing us try to manufacture one on ones for Nadolo out wide rather than having him running into 3 forwards in the middle though.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:56 pm

Ford was fantastic last week but tonight has been one of his poorest showings in a long time.

It's the right moment for Youngs experience I think. C'mon Lenny you're team need a big 30 minutes here.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:57 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
king_carlos wrote:I'm more in the Sam camp of thinking that the reduced cap would have forced more use of academies anyway.

Tigers squad a couple of years ago was a case study in how using your academy poorly in a salary capped system will ruin you. We hadn't been bringing through talent well enough for a long time and as such were overpaying for a lot of "solid Premiership standard" players that had no ceiling to improve beyond that point. Due to overpaying for those average overseas signings and tying up a ton of cash in internationals who played half the season there was then no room to strengthen areas of the squad such as back row that were laughably weak.

Tigers were also a decent case study in how raising the cap and introducing marquee players just drove wage inflation for solid club pros rather than driving the desired increase in quality of the league as a whole.

Now Tigers are finally using the academy and younger EQP signings (Kelly, Potter, Porter, Dolly, etc) to fill out squad depth which has freed up some cap space to invest the likes of Liebenberg, Montoya, Wiese and Nadolo who can make a significant difference to the first XV.

A Premiership with a lower salary cap, relegation and a better invested in Championship would still be the best place long term in my opinion. Sadly, I think we are heading for a ring fenced Premiership with a very high salary cap though. Time will tell whether that leads to a lot of dead rubbers with teams rotating heavily away from home.
I really can't agree a Premiership with a lower cap will be a better place to be, mate.  I believe our players are significantly undercompensated for what they put themselves through.  I think clubs need to have clear rules and real incentives to ensure talent is brought through.  There have been some potentially well-intentioned attempts to make this happen, but they clearly didn't work terribly well.  

I also think scrapping relegation was coming in one form or another.  It may come back for a while in some guise or other, but I think in the long run it will end.  When that happens the only way into the Premiership will be by a club with well backed and thought out financial plans (as opposed to just having a backer).  In American sport with no relegation, plenty of fans show up for clubs which are out of contention.  

Taking a quick look at the Saints 23 for tomorrow, I think Saints have nine academy players (I might be off by one or two), but that includes Alex Waller with his 300 club caps.

What they are compensated needs to be able to be supported by what is still comparatively a young professional set-up though. With the higher cap and 2 marquee players I don't think wage inflation was sustainable for the Premiership financially.

I understand the argument that pro players pretty much destroy their bodies these days and deserve good compensation for effectively doing that for the sake of the fans entertainment but it still needs to be sustainable long term. I'd also argue that the game moving in a direction where it doesn't destroy it's players is a necessity though.

American sports (predominantly NFL, Basketball and Baseball I'm talking there) have more captive audiences though as they play those sports to a far higher standard than any where else. They also have the gigantic American audience at their disposal. As such they are very different examples in my opinion.

I wouldn't say 9 academy grads is a huge number either. I just had a quick look at Tigers last game of 2018/19 (in my opinion one of our worst seasons) at random. The starting XV had 6 academy grads in it and that's during a dire period when Tigers weren't using their academy well at all!

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Post by Poorfour Fri 24 Sep 2021, 8:59 pm

A moment of magic from Harry Potter, there.
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