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England: Autumn Internationals

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 27 Oct 2021, 12:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

England squad for autumn Tests:

Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Jamie George (Saracens), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Nic Dolly (Leicester), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath)

Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), George Furbank (Northampton), Max Malins (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Henry Slade (Exeter), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Joe Marchant (Quins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

In Positions:
1.Marler, Genge
2.George, Blamire, Dolly
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Davison
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds, Chick

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith

11.May, Radwan
12.Farrell, Atkinson
13.Tuilagi, Slade
14.Freeman, Marchant
15.Steward, Malins, Furbank
-------------------------------------------------
England v Tonga - 6th November
England v Australia - 13th November
England v South Africa - 20th November

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Post by Phil Wed 17 Nov 2021, 9:20 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
miltonkeynesengland wrote:Just heard the terrible news about poor Jannie du Plessis. Such a tragedy losing his son. Puts everything else into perspective. I hope we will have a minutes silence on Saturday.

God that's horrible. Yes I'm sure they will.

Terrible news for him, a real tragedy.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 17 Nov 2021, 11:45 pm

Phil wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
miltonkeynesengland wrote:Just heard the terrible news about poor Jannie du Plessis. Such a tragedy losing his son. Puts everything else into perspective. I hope we will have a minutes silence on Saturday.

God that's horrible. Yes I'm sure they will.

Terrible news for him, a real tragedy.
No other words. Tragedy.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 18 Nov 2021, 11:11 am

Jones has been very quiet this week. It's possible he's avoiding mentioning up and coming tennis stars, it could be an alternative way of winding up the opposition or it could just be that with the Rassie saga (and the above tragedy) there are enough distractions around already.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Nov 2021, 12:32 pm

He's normally a lot more vocal when he doesn't want people focusing too much on an area or players...and pretty much all the focus has been on the front row and set piece(s). England have sent out to a greater or lesser extent Cockerill, Proudfoot and Steward and not really a peep from Jones. Make of that what you will.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Nov 2021, 1:35 pm

1. Bevan Rodd

2. Jamie Blamire

3. Kyle Sinckler

4. Maro Itoje

5. Jonny Hill

6. Courtney Lawes

7. Sam Underhill

8. Tom Curry

9. Ben Youngs

10. Marcus Smith

11. Jonny May

12. Manu Tuilagi

13. Henry Slade

14. Joe Marchant

15. Freddie Steward

FINISHERS

16. Nic Dolly

17. Joe Marler

18. Will Stuart

19. Charlie Ewels

20. Sam Simmonds

21. Alex Dombrandt

22. Raffi Quirke

23. Max Malins

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Post by lostinwales Thu 18 Nov 2021, 1:35 pm

Marchant on the wing. Blamire starts. Marler, Dolly in the subs.  Same starters and bench otherwise

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Nov 2021, 1:36 pm

Still don't like the balance of that bench. No Radwan again so he's clearly got something to work on.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 18 Nov 2021, 1:40 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Still don't like the balance of that bench. No Radwan again so he's clearly got something to work on.

Just hoping he's not being treated like Thorley. I think its more a case of giving him more of a taste and as you said stuff to work on. We'll know for sure when the 6N comes around


Last edited by lostinwales on Thu 18 Nov 2021, 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 18 Nov 2021, 1:49 pm

Well the SA's will attack the scrum, and our lineout (see what Blamires made of )

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 18 Nov 2021, 1:52 pm

It is a surprise, no Radwan that is.

Marchant is a very good winger, but is not a specialist. I do not see what he brings to the table that Radwan doesn't.
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Post by lostinwales Thu 18 Nov 2021, 1:56 pm

More experience and better coverage if they need to sub backs with only two on the bench I suppose. Less chance of Simmonds at 12 then.

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Post by Poorfour Thu 18 Nov 2021, 2:04 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:It is a surprise, no Radwan that is.

Marchant is a very good winger, but is not a specialist. I do not see what he brings to the table that Radwan doesn't.

Marchant's a better kicker, covers more positions and he knows Smith's game better. Radwan's mustard, but he's an out and out winger which is a challenge with a 6-2 bench.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Nov 2021, 2:12 pm

Marchant is really good in the air and an excellent wide out defender for me. I'm not unhappy he's been given a chance albeit for me he's a better centre. Don't see the overall point in Simmonds on the bench but I suppose there is a real doubt if Curry was forced out what sort of balance Lawes, Dombrandt and Underhill would offer.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 18 Nov 2021, 2:17 pm

Just seen Farrell is having surgery on the ankle. I wonder how long it will keep him out

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Post by king_carlos Thu 18 Nov 2021, 2:29 pm

I think Marchant is a player that can genuinely play wing and outside centre to a fantastic standard rather than a centre shunted out wide as JJ was for instance. Marchant can play like a genuine winger as he has shown with Quins and Blues.

I don't think it's the same as pundits mentioning Slade's versatility when debating the Lions squads for instance which is a bit of mute point given he's not played 10 in years, was rubbish for England at 12 and covered fullback for about half an hour, albeit he did so competently. In those situations I think versatility in international rugby is over-egged as I'm never sure what use being average at lots of positions is is in international rugby. In a salary capped club rugby like the Prem that's a different story as you need to cover a lot of games a season with a limited pool of players. Not so in international rugby.

Marchant to me is actually a rare player who can play multiple positions to a strong standard though rather than being good at one position and better than Bergamasco at 9 in other positions.

I'd have preferred Radwan for his out and out pace but I've no issues with Marchant on the wing.

Overall I like the side given the absentees. Slade's best performances have been at 13 with Manu at 12 so hopefully we see him standout as he did in the QF against Australia for instance.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 18 Nov 2021, 2:39 pm

No issues with Marchant, he should be playing 13 anyway. Very disappointed to see no Radwan again. He's a genuine game changer and would be devastating against tired legs.

Backrow....meh

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Post by cb Thu 18 Nov 2021, 2:46 pm

The backrow has always looked better when Dombrandt was on the field and we had a proper number 8.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 18 Nov 2021, 2:55 pm

cb wrote:The backrow has always looked better when Dombrandt was on the field and we had a proper number 8.

Constant apparent need to shoehorn the best players onto the pitch will bite us.

Another obvious question mark is over Dolly who will be making his debut against that Springbok front row. I don't think we'll get much more than 40 minutes out of Blamire.

Still in Eddie we trust. I think Sinckler is going to have a stormer, Rodd will do OK, and the backs will be fine when they get the ball. It is hard to call.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 18 Nov 2021, 3:01 pm

Hopefully Eddie has a plan....the Bok fans will be unbearable.

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Post by Poorfour Thu 18 Nov 2021, 3:02 pm

There's a better reason for not starting Marler this time, but it still has shades of the RWC Final... That said, if England are in the game at 60 minutes, I can see him making a real difference in closing out the game.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Nov 2021, 3:04 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hopefully Eddie has a plan....the Bok fans will be unbearable.

I have to laugh every time Englands twitter account posts at the 1 sad sack who posts a vid of Kolbe scoring in the final. There are some really insecure people wearing green.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Nov 2021, 3:06 pm

Poorfour wrote:There's a better reason for not starting Marler this time, but it still has shades of the RWC Final... That said, if England are in the game at 60 minutes, I can see him making a real difference in closing out the game.

It's a real shame Genge and hi aren't available and ready to go. The what should have been looseheads. It is a fantastic opportunity for Rodd, Blamire and Dolly though; go well and they will then be right in the selection mix come the 6Ns.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 18 Nov 2021, 3:21 pm

Regardless its fanatastic experience...and now we will have two more young front rowers (Rodd & Blamire) who will have faced the near full strength Boks and who now know how hard they have to train to be right up there. If they want it...they'll put the work in!

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Post by lostinwales Thu 18 Nov 2021, 3:25 pm

It does feel like a changing of the guard.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 18 Nov 2021, 3:32 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Regardless its fanatastic experience...and now we will have two more young front rowers (Rodd & Blamire) who will have faced the near full strength Boks and who now know how hard they have to train to be right up there. If they want it...they'll put the work in!
Vitally for judging a LH and hooker they are missing Frans Malherbe though who is probably the most destructive scrummaging TH in rugby these days. Furlong is the better all round player but I'd say Malherbe is more destructive in the scrum.

Also RG Snyman absent so no bomb squad on the bench.

Malherbe, Snyman, PSdT, Faf and Kolbe isn't a huge absentee list in terms of numbers given attrition in the modern game but they are all world class.

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Post by Old Man Thu 18 Nov 2021, 3:33 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hopefully Eddie has a plan....the Bok fans will be unbearable.

Awe, come on, some of us are really sweet. Hug

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Nov 2021, 3:39 pm

Some more BBC quotes,

Jones: "They said after the World Cup final, where they beat us fair and square, that they knew how to play us, they knew where our weaknesses were and they were implying that our forward pack was weak.

"Our forward pack's not weak and we'll have an opportunity on Saturday to show that.

"We are looking forward to taking them on in that physicality and we're also looking forward to try to expose the weaknesses in their game that they do have.

"There are opportunities to hurt them in other ways and we have to be brave enough to take those opportunities."

In the backs, centre Marchant is the third different right wing chosen by Jones in as many matches.

Adam Radwan started against Tonga and Tuilagi against Australia with Max Malins also an option but selected on the bench for Saturday's game.

It will be Marchant's second England start and his first appearance of the autumn series, with Jones saying his inclusion is to help cope with the kicking threat posed by South Africa.

"We know that South Africa are going to come through the air, they have a fairly stated gameplan and winning the air is an important part of their game," he explained.

"We feel that Joe Marchant is one of the best in England in the air, so it brings an ability to contest in the air really well, he's a strong defender and strong runner with the ball so it suits the way we want to play this week."

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Post by Old Man Thu 18 Nov 2021, 3:40 pm

king_carlos wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Regardless its fanatastic experience...and now we will have two more young front rowers (Rodd & Blamire) who will have faced the near full strength Boks and who now know how hard they have to train to be right up there. If they want it...they'll put the work in!
Vitally for judging a LH and hooker they are missing Frans Malherbe though who is probably the most destructive scrummaging TH in rugby these days. Furlong is the better all round player but I'd say Malherbe is more destructive in the scrum.

Also RG Snyman absent so no bomb squad on the bench.

Malherbe, Snyman, PSdT, Faf and Kolbe isn't a huge absentee list in terms of numbers given attrition in the modern game but they are all world class.

I would suggest PSDT, Snyman, Faf and Kolbe are very difficult to replace.

No winger in SA comes close to Kolbe's magic, Kwagga is doing a decent job, but not remotely in the quality PSDT has, Snyman is a huge loss, his ability and skillset he brings in the last quarter provides many opportunities for us, and we don't have a replacement for him, hence no 6/2 split. Reinach is a good replacement for Faf, but does not have his ability for defensive reads, so our defensive pattern suffers because of it, just thankful Herschel Jantjies is starting.

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Post by dummy_half Thu 18 Nov 2021, 3:54 pm

Still don't get Curry at 8 - it is a specialist's position, especially with regards to control at the base of scrums, and he isn't a specialist. You wouldn't pick a centre at 10 or a winger at 9 just to get your best 15 players on the pitch.

Otherwise, I think the team largely picked itself given the available players, with the exception of Marchant as opposed to Radwan on the wing. At least Manu is back where he should be, in midfield.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 18 Nov 2021, 4:09 pm

dummy_half wrote:Still don't get Curry at 8 - it is a specialist's position, especially with regards to control at the base of scrums, and he isn't a specialist. You wouldn't pick a centre at 10 or a winger at 9 just to get your best 15 players on the pitch.

Otherwise, I think the team largely picked itself given the available players, with the exception of Marchant as opposed to Radwan on the wing. At least Manu is back where he should be, in midfield.

I am hoping all the selections and strategies make sense by the time we get to the RWC, if not before. I do think in the back row there is a case of just trying to squeeze our best players in, but there is a case to be made that he is easing Dombrandt in gradually.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 18 Nov 2021, 4:25 pm

Poorfour wrote:There's a better reason for not starting Marler this time, but it still has shades of the RWC Final... That said, if England are in the game at 60 minutes, I can see him making a real difference in closing out the game.

Do you really think Eddie will wait until the 60th minute for Marler? I think he might be on at half time or thereabouts. He could be the bomb disposer in Eddie's plan.

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Post by majesticimperialman Thu 18 Nov 2021, 4:53 pm

i am surprised Radwan not in the team, I thought he might have got on the bench

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Post by lostinwales Thu 18 Nov 2021, 5:01 pm

lostinwales wrote:Just seen Farrell is having surgery on the ankle. I wonder how long it will keep him out

Beyond start of 6N apparently (10-12 weeks). George also out until January (8-10 weeks) although I would have thought we should be getting LCD back by then

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 18 Nov 2021, 5:51 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hopefully Eddie has a plan....the Bok fans will be unbearable.
I don't mind if other people give us some well deserved abuse. I rather enjoy it, or most of it anyway.

After all, it is not about the Boks, it's about us. And the players we have on the pitch. I love the backs-against-the-wall mentality (served me well all my life it seems). Only thing which would make it better was if we were playing a few weeks earlier on Saint Crispian's Day: “Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; Or close the wall up with our English dead!"

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 18 Nov 2021, 6:34 pm

I have to agree with the Erasmus ban, but jeez.....what a time to announce it. As much as I see some Bok fans (Not you old man) claiming it's an English ploy etc, it's literally anything but. As if the SA players needed any more reason to be fired up!

On paper this is a SA win, I just can't see where we can get on top. it will take some tactical masterplan to get us the win, something from the Quins playbook would be nice.

I can see the set piece struggling as us struggling to get go forward in the pack. My slight hope is that backline fires and makes holes against the poor defensive SA centre pairing (yea right....).

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Post by Phil Thu 18 Nov 2021, 10:17 pm

This could be a horror show tbh. If the Boks get dominance in the scrum (which I fully expect) then they will easily batter us into the ground.

A lot of the youngsters will feel the need to prove themselves and that could lead to errors as well, and the Boks will just keep applying pressure...

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Post by Phil Thu 18 Nov 2021, 10:18 pm

Also ffs can we just play Dommers at 8.

This reminds me of the whole Wood at 8 debacle and we know how that ended!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 19 Nov 2021, 8:24 am

I don't like myself for feeling pretty relaxed still over this game. It may well change after the first scrum (!) but there's a lot to like on this pack, and probably more to like when the bench comes on as I wish he was playing a number 8, either of them. In the 2 backs picked you can hardly say they aren't without a little magic. Yeah, slept on it and still like.


BBC: 'Nevertheless, the England coach insists Rodd and Blamire, who will win his fifth international cap on Saturday, "can do the job" against the world champions.

"There's no doubt about it," added Jones, whose side have beaten Tonga and Australia this autumn.

"For young front rowers, these are the sorts of games you want at the start of your career.

"You're up against it. The opposition fancy themselves a bit. You can prove yourself to be an outstanding player and they will."

When asked if he had considered bringing the experienced Mako Vunipola back into camp after Marler and Ellis Genge contracted coronavirus, Jones said: "No, not really.

"We've made a decision that those guys need to play more club rugby and find that consistency in their performance.

"We're quite happy to play Bevan Rodd. We think he's the right man for the job."

Marler's isolation means his first training session with the rest of the England team will be on Friday, but Jones said the loose-head "will be in good shape", adding: "We're happy to put him on when we need him."

South Africa's dominance up front was a big factor in England's World Cup final loss, but Jones says England will not shy away from the set-piece in their gameplan despite a lack of experience in the front row.

"You've got to take them on there," he explained.

"They don't go away in the set-piece so you've got to take them on and you've got to fight to the death. I know our forward pack is not weak."

'Hopefully they check the laundry baskets for Erasmus'
Rassie Erasmus
Erasmus has been a regular touchline presence at the Springboks' recent matches
South Africa will be without director of rugby Rassie Erasmus at Twickenham after he was banned from Springboks matchdays for a year by World Rugby.

Erasmus will appeal the punishment, which came as a result of an hour-long video criticising the refereeing of South Africa's first-Test defeat by the British and Irish Lions in July.

Jones suggested Erasmus might still find a way into Twickenham, joking that he could follow the example of Jose Mourinho, who hid in a laundry basket to attend Chelsea's Champions League quarter-final from which he was banned in 2005.

"Hopefully they're going to check the laundry baskets - Rassie might be hiding in there," Jones said.

"They're very good at galvanising the emotion of the situation and I'm sure they'll use the situation to their advantage.

"They've got a strong sense of unity, they've got a strong sense of country pride and that carries them a long way."

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 19 Nov 2021, 9:17 am

I'm still shaking my head over the furore from SAs in terms of Erasmus. Think I'd rather by Bevan Rodd tomorrow than Andrew Brace, anything less than kowtowing to every SA appeal and he's going to get a tonne of abuse.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 19 Nov 2021, 9:31 am

The Boks are turning into the Millwall of international rugby.

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Post by Poorfour Fri 19 Nov 2021, 9:55 am

lostinwales wrote:The Boks are turning into the Millwall of international rugby.

Fortunately the crowd violence remains verbal jousting rather than turning physical. This is rugby after all.
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Post by lostinwales Fri 19 Nov 2021, 9:58 am

Poorfour wrote:
lostinwales wrote:The Boks are turning into the Millwall of international rugby.

Fortunately the crowd violence remains verbal jousting rather than turning physical. This is rugby after all.

Yes - good to remember we leave the violence on the pitch.

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Post by Old Man Fri 19 Nov 2021, 10:44 am

lostinwales wrote:The Boks are turning into the Millwall of international rugby.

Not familiar with what that means, could you please enlighten me.

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Post by hugehandoff Fri 19 Nov 2021, 10:56 am

Old Man wrote:
lostinwales wrote:The Boks are turning into the Millwall of international rugby.

Not familiar with what that means, could you please enlighten me.

We are Millwall, no one loves us. We don't care. So assuming the sentiment is that SA don't care if they buck the trend and continue to kick the ball all day long as they have a style of play that has rewarded them rather well. They will just do what they want and to hell with everyone else.

Personally I fear for England and I think it could be similar to the RWC final with SA dominating up front and their backs finally adding some gloss to a comfortable victory. Then they will finally get to enjoy their off season.

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Post by Old Man Fri 19 Nov 2021, 12:08 pm

Thanks for the explanation.

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Post by Old Man Fri 19 Nov 2021, 12:08 pm

Nienaber certainly falls in that category.

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Post by chris_501 Fri 19 Nov 2021, 12:23 pm

Phil wrote:Also ffs can we just play Dommers at 8.

This reminds me of the whole Wood at 8 debacle and we know how that ended!

I am always surprised that, with the depth of player that Eddie has to choose from, he makes so decisions to play players out of their normal position. I suppose you could argue that at World Cup time, its great to have a utility player or two to cover several positions, but if Wales were playing England tomorrow, I'd be far happier seeing Lawes at 6, Curry at 8 and Marchant on the wing than I would be with players in their more 'normal' positions.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 19 Nov 2021, 2:22 pm

Just did a search on starting pack weight comparison and there is not much in it (based on reported weights) but England is heavier at 900kg vs 882 for SA. Of course Kwagga Smith is (relatively speaking) a midget.

England front row is significantly heavier as are the SA locks

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 19 Nov 2021, 5:36 pm

hugehandoff wrote:
Old Man wrote:
lostinwales wrote:The Boks are turning into the Millwall of international rugby.

Not familiar with what that means, could you please enlighten me.

We are Millwall, no one loves us. We don't care. So assuming the sentiment is that SA don't care if they buck the trend and continue to kick the ball all day long as they have a style of play that has rewarded them rather well. They will just do what they want and to hell with everyone else.

Personally I fear for England and I think it could be similar to the RWC final with SA dominating up front and their backs finally adding some gloss to a comfortable victory. Then they will finally get to enjoy their off season.
And you think people love England??????
Her Maj even prefers to live in Scotland, ffs.

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Post by Sharkey06 Fri 19 Nov 2021, 11:22 pm

As a Sale fan I will be watching Rodd at scrum time through my fingers - scrummaging is defintiely not his strong point. Hopefully England can keep the game moving (in between the Boks going down 'injured' to slow the game down). I hope the ref Andrew Brace gets control of the game and keeps it moving and doesn't let the Boks go down every 2 minutues to have a drinks break. I susepct though he won't have the cahones to dish out a penalty or two, for their slow play and gamemanship.

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