England Autumn Internationals - MARK II

by Sgt_Pooly Sat 20 Nov 2021, 3:43 pm

First topic message reminder :

England squad for autumn Tests:

Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Jamie George (Saracens), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Nic Dolly (Leicester), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath)

Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), George Furbank (Northampton), Max Malins (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Henry Slade (Exeter), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Joe Marchant (Quins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

In Positions:
1.Marler, Genge
2.George, Blamire, Dolly
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Davison
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds, Chick

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith

11.May, Radwan
12.Farrell, Atkinson
13.Tuilagi, Slade
14.Freeman, Marchant
15.Steward, Malins, Furbank
-------------------------------------------------
England v Tonga - 6th November
England v Australia - 13th November
England v South Africa - 20th November

by Poorfour Tue 23 Nov 2021, 7:16 pm

I have been wondering if Will Collier might get a look in at TH. He's had a long period of being below par - I think with some lingering injuries - but has been in excellent form at the start of the season. In this sort of form he's vying with Cole as the best technical EQ scrummager, and his mobility around the park has picked up - scoring his first try with an outrageous dummy and a run in from outside the 22...

It would be a left field choice, and maybe that ship has sailed given Eddie's emphasis on youth. But again it's Eddie, who is known for left field choices.

by lostinwales Tue 23 Nov 2021, 11:43 pm

Stuart looked OK when he first started getting picked and he won't be the only prop made to look poor by the boks but he hasn't ever looked like challenging for the starting position.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 24 Nov 2021, 3:59 am

king_carlos wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:With the first XV taking shape, I'd love to see us bring some of the big guns back in the 6N and let them try and fight their way back in. Imagine a bench of.....

16. LCD
17. Genge/Mako
18. Stuart/Heyes (Not overly sold on Stuart)
19. Underhill
20. Billy V
21. Quirke
22. Ford
23. Watson

Agreed other than hooker there Sarge. I rate Blamire but LCD and George are so far ahead of him at the minute that they'd be my hookers for the Six Nations if fit. I wouldn't be opposed at all to seeing players like Underhill, Mako, Billy, Ford and Farrell fighting from the bench if they have good club form.

I really doubt that Watson will make the Six Nations, sadly. Ruptured ACL is a brutal injury. I'd guess he's looking at the very end of the season with Bath if lucky but more likely 2022/23.

I'm not sold on Stuart either. Heyes I think was carrying an injury in preseason and seems to be working his way back to form. I thought England were right to move on from Cole after the RWC but 2 years later and I still rate him the second best TH England have.

I had George starting KC, I'd have Blamire working with the squad.

If Malins starts, Radwan could be a bench option in theory. I was thinkjng a XV of:

1. Marler
2. George
3. Sinkler
4. Hill
5. Itoje
6. Lawes
7. Curry
8. Dombrandt

9. Youngs
10. Smith
11. May
12. Slade
13. Marchant
14. Malins
15. Steward

With Tuilagi, Watson etc to come in.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 24 Nov 2021, 9:00 am

With the normal stack of caveats I would love to see us go to Scotland with this:

Genge LCD Sinckler
Itoje Lawes
Curry Underhill
Dombrandt
Quirke Smith
May Farrell Marchant Radwan
Steward

Marler Blamire Stuart Hill Simmonds Randall Tuilagi Malins

by Soul Requiem Wed 24 Nov 2021, 9:07 am

Marler LCD Sinckler
Itoje Lawes
Curry Underhill
Dombrandt
Youngs Smith
May Slade Marchant Malins
Steward

Malins for his aerial ability above anything else, Farrell is probably injured. Marler over Genge purely for the impact the latter can have late on against tired legs. I'm sticking with Youngs for now, his experience could be vital with a few youngers guys in the backline.

by **Afro** Wed 24 Nov 2021, 9:22 am

Mine would be almost the same as your Soul, although I would go for Genge

Genge LCD Sinckler
Itoje Lawes
Curry Underhill
Dombrandt
Youngs Smith
May Slade Marchant Malins
Steward

by Cumbrian Wed 24 Nov 2021, 11:27 am

First match is away up in Edinburgh, going to need some cool heads/ experience. Games between us at Murrayfield tend to be close/ tense affairs.

I personally don't see Lawes going back into the second row now, Eddie, his club (and indeed he himself) see him as a blindside now. So if he is in the team it will be at 6. I would love to see Quirke get a start at some point, but not just yet.

01. Joe Marler
02. Luke Cowan-Dickie
03. Kyle Sinkler
04. Maro Itoje
05. Jonny Hill
06. Courtney Lawes
07. Tom Curry
08. Alex Dombrandt

09. Ben Youngs
10. Marcus Smith

11. Adam Radwan
12. Manu Tuilagi (if fit, if not Slade)
13. Joe Marchant
14. Max Malins
15. Freddie Steward

Normally i'd worry about the lack of heavy duty carriers without Manu, but Steward can compensate for that a little.

by lostinwales Wed 24 Nov 2021, 11:44 am

I think Slade will be a fixture now, particularly as that 2nd distributor

by No 7&1/2 Wed 24 Nov 2021, 11:53 am

I fear he is. But to come back to a previous point it goes wrong for him when it's not that first phase or setup when it goes a bit loose that it starts to fall apart for Slade. There were instances in the first 2 games in particular where he dallied took others space and the chances were lost. The bits he did brilliantly were part of those strike moves. The class Lawes tackle and the discussion around whether Steward can defend side stepped the horrible intercept.

by BigTrevsbigmac Wed 24 Nov 2021, 11:59 am

Injury update on Wasps potential England Internationals.

Tom West & Alfie Barbeary are in the mix this Friday.
Joe Launchbury should be back mid to late December so all 3 could be in the conversation for 6 Ns.

Jack Willis, Dan Robson & Paulo Odogwu are all due back mid to late January so probably too late for start but maybe involved, at a push, in the latter stages if they can all prove fitness and form.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 24 Nov 2021, 12:09 pm

It'll be too late for the latter group you feel. Would love to see Launchbury back in straight away, he normally takes a few games to get going.

by Poorfour Wed 24 Nov 2021, 12:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I fear he is. But to come back to a previous point it goes wrong for him when it's not that first phase or setup when it goes a bit loose that it starts to fall apart for Slade. There were instances in the first 2 games in particular where he dallied took others space and the chances were lost. The bits he did brilliantly were part of those strike moves. The class Lawes tackle and the discussion around whether Steward can defend side stepped the horrible intercept.

The question is how much of that is being part of a brand new backline and will improve with experience versus how much is a weakness in Slade himself. He looked more assured in the South Africa game, where he didn't have to roam around so much, and the Smith / Slade / Marchant combination worked really well. I was prepared to defend Farrell coming into the autumn series, but the team looked better without him and I would be happy to see that trio tried again. It loses a little in physicality and experience of game management compared to Ford - Farrell - JJ (say) but the compensation is that ball in hand each player offers at least one extra dimension of threat in attack and collectively that's much harder to defend against.

If Eddie's serious about his view that the Law changes have tilted the balance back in favour of more running and playing with the ball, then they are the sort of combination that can make the most of it. A fully fit Manu might force his way in to give them an additional carrying threat - but on the other hand, after Manu had left the field that backline put two well-worked tries past the Boks the first time they'd played together and only conceded one.

by dummy_half Wed 24 Nov 2021, 1:27 pm

BBC report of last week was that George was likely to be out 8-10 weeks, so might make it back by the start of the 6Ns, but would surely be a bit rusty.
Farrell slightly longer, at 10-12 weeks, so likely to miss at least the first and possibly second 6Ns game.

Suggested that Manu's injury was just a muscle strain, so likely to only be about 4 weeks out. Of course the issue for him is whether he avoids further injury going forward.

Given the relative strength or otherwise of the positions, I expect George to be straight back at least to the bench, whereas I think Farrell might only make the squad for the last couple of rounds of the 6Ns (if at all)

by lostinwales Wed 24 Nov 2021, 1:53 pm

There were two particular incidents in the Australian game where Slade ran laterally. Apart from the whole 'is he liberated without Farrell?' I think one of the issues was that there were no supporting runners locally. He runs towards space but he's not going to try that huge pass.

He could in theory have run a different path but he has less options with Farrell because he is not the guy to support in the way that, for instance, Marchant is.

What I am trying to say is that there is a case to say that Marchant (or Manu, if he's in the centers) might well have been in place to provide a link to the wing in a way which Farrell could not.

by Poorfour Wed 24 Nov 2021, 2:06 pm

Conversely, against SA Slade pulled off a couple of those big passes for Tuilagi's try and the break that led to Steward's try - and then a much shorter pass that led to Quirke's try.

Only one game, but he looked better at 12 than he has at 13, especially with another creative ball player outside him.

by lostinwales Wed 24 Nov 2021, 2:10 pm

Poorfour wrote:Conversely, against SA Slade pulled off a couple of those big passes for Tuilagi's try and the break that led to Steward's try - and then a much shorter pass that led to Quirke's try.

Only one game, but he looked better at 12 than he has at 13, especially with another creative ball player outside him.

Yep - I'll have to watch those bits of the Australian game again but didn't think there was much behind him and plenty of Australians in front, so suspect the big pass would have been much more risky had it been intercepted.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 24 Nov 2021, 2:25 pm

He can pass. He just can't make decisions when the move falls apart or he needs to think. Based on these games anyway. If Farrell is out he's definitely going to play if fit; Jones has already said he's his first choice outside centre anyway.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 24 Nov 2021, 2:34 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He can pass. He just can't make decisions when the move falls apart or he needs to think. Based on these games anyway. If Farrell is out he's definitely going to play if fit; Jones has already said he's his first choice outside centre anyway.

never has anyone been more likely to be dropped than the next international period after Eddie has labelled them first choice...

by No 7&1/2 Wed 24 Nov 2021, 2:50 pm

lol. For someone massively left field.

by lostinwales Wed 24 Nov 2021, 3:25 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:lol. For someone massively left field.

(Barbeary)

by formerly known as Sam Wed 24 Nov 2021, 3:37 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:lol. For someone massively left field.

Going to experiment with Nowell at 13.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 24 Nov 2021, 4:29 pm

6 weeks for Tuilagi with a hamstring tear. Given the amount of strapping on him the England physio was obviously worried by it and though I accept no one players rugby at 100 per cent I think Sanderson has taken it pretty well! It's the sort of thing in football would lead to a (correct) tirade from the club.

by lostinwales Wed 24 Nov 2021, 4:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:6 weeks for Tuilagi with a hamstring tear. Given the amount of strapping on him the England physio was obviously worried by it and though I accept no one players rugby at 100 per cent I think Sanderson has taken it pretty well! It's the sort of thing in football would lead to a (correct) tirade from the club.

He should not have played.

Just saw this, so maybe they were doing what seemed right

Manu Tuilagi had been for a hamstring scan before the SA game but it came back as a grade zero, so Alex Sanderson not blaming England for the injury: “I'm frustrated, but I can't say it's England's fault because all the medical advice would suggest this is a one-off"

by formerly known as Sam Wed 24 Nov 2021, 4:48 pm

lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:6 weeks for Tuilagi with a hamstring tear. Given the amount of strapping on him the England physio was obviously worried by it and though I accept no one players rugby at 100 per cent I think Sanderson has taken it pretty well! It's the sort of thing in football would lead to a (correct) tirade from the club.

He should not have played.

Doesn't Raffi Quirke play with a lot of strapping around one knee? He's been in and out the side this season with injury. If Sale are happy to do it for players at club level then they probably don't have much of a leg to stand on when the international team do it. Plus I suspect Manu wanted his bonus for playing in the game.

by dummy_half Wed 24 Nov 2021, 5:05 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:lol. For someone massively left field.

Going to experiment with Nowell at 13.

Only if partnered by Sam Simmonds at 12...

by majesticimperialman Wed 24 Nov 2021, 5:19 pm

Antony Watson getting a ban for bad mouthing a referee. ok fine was thinking why Marcus Watson has not played for the England 15 team.he used to play 7s for England, why not 15s?

by king_carlos Wed 24 Nov 2021, 5:20 pm

Manu frequently plays heavily strapped as do a lot of players. Saints players have joked a few times about Lawes basically being held together with physio tape these days.

Manu had the recurring groin injury that put him out for 15 months consecutively as well as a few other layoffs. It would have ended many careers. Then he did his ACL on his left leg, tore his achilles on the left heel, had a more minor ligament injury on the right leg, has had hamstring injuries on both legs, tore his pec, fractured cheek bone. Think there was a minor shoulder injury on the same side as the pec tear as well.

He's unlikely to be playing without strapping somewhere in every game. When it's on a players knee it's visible and gets commented on. Strapping on ankles and shoulders is hidden by socks and shirts so gets a pass.

Given Manu has previous hammy strains/tears on both legs has it even been confirmed that it was the same leg that was strapped?

by king_carlos Wed 24 Nov 2021, 5:30 pm

Poorfour wrote:Conversely, against SA Slade pulled off a couple of those big passes for Tuilagi's try and the break that led to Steward's try - and then a much shorter pass that led to Quirke's try.

Only one game, but he looked better at 12 than he has at 13, especially with another creative ball player outside him.

Slade's best performances have come with a runner in the midfield. Farrell-Manu-Slade worked very well. Now we've seen Smith-Slade-Marchant work really well albeit in a small sample size. I don't think the 12 or 13 shirt in attack matters as much as having that runner for Slade to play off.

His defence is absolutely rock solid in both positions. 13 is arguably the most difficult position in the modern game though which is probably a big part of why Jones likes Slade at 13.

I've said a few times that Slade's best performances have been very good (high ceiling) but he just produces them too infrequently. If he can produce them more consistently he could be an excellent international centre. Whereas currently I think he's been more of a solid international centre. My view of him has also been somewhat harmed by my thinking that JJ is the better player and was discarded too soon.

One slight red herring with Slade at interantional is his kicking game though I think. He has an absolutely huge boot but does lack control over it, hence why I think England use him very sparingly as a kicker.

by Poorfour Wed 24 Nov 2021, 5:31 pm

Quins have an academy lad called Oscar Beard who already plays with kinesio tape running up the back of his calves and sticking out of his socks. Mind you, he's pretty damn quick so perhaps it's for speed rather than protection.

by king_carlos Wed 24 Nov 2021, 5:32 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Antony Watson getting a ban for bad mouthing a referee. ok fine was thinking why Marcus Watson has not played for the England 15 team.he used to play 7s for England, why not 15s?

Marcus is a good Premiership winger but there have always been better options for England. Anthony is the much better player. No shame about it as Anthony is world class.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 24 Nov 2021, 5:35 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:6 weeks for Tuilagi with a hamstring tear. Given the amount of strapping on him the England physio was obviously worried by it and though I accept no one players rugby at 100 per cent I think Sanderson has taken it pretty well! It's the sort of thing in football would lead to a (correct) tirade from the club.

He should not have played.

Doesn't Raffi Quirke play with a lot of strapping around one knee? He's been in and out the side this season with injury. If Sale are happy to do it for players at club level then they probably don't have much of a leg to stand on when the international team do it. Plus I suspect Manu wanted his bonus for playing in the game.

Think they're all still getting their bonus shared even without playing aren't they?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 24 Nov 2021, 5:38 pm

king_carlos wrote:Manu frequently plays heavily strapped as do a lot of players. Saints players have joked a few times about Lawes basically being held together with physio tape these days.

Manu had the recurring groin injury that put him out for 15 months consecutively as well as a few other layoffs. It would have ended many careers. Then he did his ACL on his left leg, tore his achilles on the left heel, had a more minor ligament injury on the right leg, has had hamstring injuries on both legs, tore his pec, fractured cheek bone. Think there was a minor shoulder injury on the same side as the pec tear as well.

He's unlikely to be playing without strapping somewhere in every game. When it's on a players knee it's visible and gets commented on. Strapping on ankles and shoulders is hidden by socks and shirts so gets a pass.

Given Manu has previous hammy strains/tears on both legs has it even been confirmed that it was the same leg that was strapped?

It's the one he was holding. I just think it was an unnecessary risk for a player with that history.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 24 Nov 2021, 6:17 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:6 weeks for Tuilagi with a hamstring tear. Given the amount of strapping on him the England physio was obviously worried by it and though I accept no one players rugby at 100 per cent I think Sanderson has taken it pretty well! It's the sort of thing in football would lead to a (correct) tirade from the club.

He should not have played.

Doesn't Raffi Quirke play with a lot of strapping around one knee? He's been in and out the side this season with injury. If Sale are happy to do it for players at club level then they probably don't have much of a leg to stand on when the international team do it. Plus I suspect Manu wanted his bonus for playing in the game.

Think they're all still getting their bonus shared even without playing aren't they?

I think that was just for the periods where they were all in the bubble isolating apart from games and training. They were all suffering in the bubble together so it didn't seem fair for some guys to get to play and get bonuses whilst other guys were stuck away from their families and getting nothing.

by king_carlos Wed 24 Nov 2021, 6:25 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Manu frequently plays heavily strapped as do a lot of players. Saints players have joked a few times about Lawes basically being held together with physio tape these days.

Manu had the recurring groin injury that put him out for 15 months consecutively as well as a few other layoffs. It would have ended many careers. Then he did his ACL on his left leg, tore his achilles on the left heel, had a more minor ligament injury on the right leg, has had hamstring injuries on both legs, tore his pec, fractured cheek bone. Think there was a minor shoulder injury on the same side as the pec tear as well.

He's unlikely to be playing without strapping somewhere in every game. When it's on a players knee it's visible and gets commented on. Strapping on ankles and shoulders is hidden by socks and shirts so gets a pass.

Given Manu has previous hammy strains/tears on both legs has it even been confirmed that it was the same leg that was strapped?

It's the one he was holding. I just think it was an unnecessary risk for a player with that history.

I didn't notice him clutching it walking off but a quick watch back and he did put his hand to that hammy after standing up from scoring, you're right.

With Manu I don't think you can pick him without that risk at this point. Same with Pocock or Warburton in the latter end of their careers. It's a case of whether you think the risk outweighs the reward. With Manu I think it does, but having watched him from a teenager I am biased with him of course. Even heavily strapped he crashed over for that early try and he can do things no other player England have can. I'd take that risk but I can understand why others argue we shouldn't.

The 6-2 split risk/reward is a different debate. I like the 6-2 split but think it only works sufficiently if you can unload an entire front 5. Given Itoje isn't going to be subbed often England wont do that often. Our back rows have such huge work rate across the match that don't think two fresh back rows make that big a difference. Especially if both of them are number 8s and we are making those subs pretty late on anyway!

by Poorfour Wed 24 Nov 2021, 6:42 pm

The question with Manu is whether you can rely on him lasting long enough in training and the match to work him into the patterns. The fact that he can do things no-one else can is exactly why it's a risk: if you base elements of your game plan on him and then he gets broken early, you've got a problem. Though it's an interesting parallel that England lost Sinckler and Manu at similar times in their last two games against SA - and coped with one but not the other.

I think we have seen that while he's a valuable and unique player, England can still function well without him. Given the injury, the best thing for him is probably to be rested for the 6N and allowed to see if he can put a full club season together for Sale. If he finishes in good shape, he's worth consideration for the summer - but it might even be better to give him a summer off and a full preseason. We know what he can do, and he's shown he can slot in without too much difficulty.

by Geordie Wed 24 Nov 2021, 7:25 pm

Manus replacement on Saturday, Marchant, is a real quality operator though Poorfour (which you know as a quins fan) and showed it.

by Poorfour Wed 24 Nov 2021, 7:32 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Manus replacement on Saturday, Marchant, is a real quality operator though Poorfour (which you know as a quins fan) and showed it.

Yup. Different style of player but poses almost as much threat because he has so many options. I've been a big fan since watching him in the JRWC, where almost every time the team ran out of ideas they'd chuck the ball to him and he'd create something out of nothing. While there are a lot of good players also in the mix, I still don't quite get why Eddie has never really given him a run.

by Geordie Wed 24 Nov 2021, 7:34 pm

I think he needs a run at 13.
Smith Slade and Marchant have a lot to offer. With Steward and if we can find another heavy duty carrier who can break the line....it bodes well....

by Big Wed 24 Nov 2021, 8:43 pm

Poorfour wrote:...Though it's an interesting parallel that England lost Sinckler and Manu at similar times in their last two games against SA - and coped with one but not the other...

I don't think the loss of Sinckler had anything to do with it last time. He's a good player and offers more of a carrying option than Cole, but despite issues in the first half the scrum was not disintegrating every time in the final, and even managed to tear the SA scrum to pieces on at least one occasion. In that sense Cole did an amazing job for a prop playing virtually the full 80... bigger issue in my mind is that I think the semi took a lot out of England, and they just got it wrong tactically (and failed to adjust those tactics mid-game, in that sense the loss of Farrell is more impactful in my view).

On that note, while I totally understand Cole being dropped, and his non-selection now - on the basis that it would be surprising if he is still in such good form come 2023. The fact is he has benefitted from some rest after years of being no. 1 for England and Tigers, and he is in very good form, and frankly if he keeps it up he may be a valid option come 2023. There are far worse things to have in a world cup final than an experienced old prop sat on the bench waiting to sort out any scrummaging issues.

by doctor_grey Wed 24 Nov 2021, 8:56 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think he needs a run at 13.
Smith Slade and Marchant have a lot to offer. With Steward and if we can find another heavy duty carrier who can break the line....it bodes well....

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sam Simmonds! There's your ball carrier, sorted.

by king_carlos Wed 24 Nov 2021, 9:14 pm

I'd agree with Big there. Sinckler getting absolutely mulched by Nche then Kitshoff for a significant part of the game then Marler getting annihilated during at least one scrum I remember actually made me wonder if Sinckler's injury and Marler's benching had as big a difference as I'd hypothesised since the RWC final. I still think with Marler and Kruis starting, Sinckler fit it would have been closer but unlikely overturning that gigantic deficit for a final. The forwards were just dominated in contact around the fringes for most of 80 minutes in 2019. That created a huge number of errors to build up. Hence SA getting 11 scrum put ins to England's 3 in that final.

Yes, we had our 3rd choice hooker and LH but this was a significantly diminished, albeit still fantastic, Boks pack from the final that ruined our scrum as well. Missing Malherbe (for my money the best scrummaging TH in rugby). Mtwarira has retired. They didn't have the full 'bomb squad' as Snyman was absent so not full tight 5 on the bench. Even trading PSdT for Smith at scrum time is losing 4 stone of muscle behind one your props!

I still think the biggest challenge against this Boks side is finding ways to diminish the effect of their physicality in open play rather than set-piece. In this win we diminished the effect for most of the first half but were still being bullied up front towards the end of the first 40. Then for the second half our forwards were getting rag dolled in contact around the fringes. In the RWC loss that was the case for both halves though.

I think the effect of their forwards dominating contact around the fringes can be diminished by moving the ball more as we did early on in this win. For this England side that is a big shift though as our attack under Jones has relied on using multiple 'volleys' of forwards carrying off 9 in quick succession making yards to turn slow ball into quick ball. That platform can then be used to either run or kick on the front foot putting much more pressure on the defence either way. Billy and Mako at their peaks were a huge part of that. When we got on top around the fringes it could be extremely effective but when they didn't there was little alternative, hence the RWC final demolition. I think this Autumn, especially the first half against the Boks was evidence of trying to move away from that over reliance. There were green shoots but still a long way to go.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 24 Nov 2021, 9:46 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think he needs a run at 13.
Smith Slade and Marchant have a lot to offer. With Steward and if we can find another heavy duty carrier who can break the line....it bodes well....

I'd like to see Manu in the 23 shirt and us go with the younger option. We're two years out from the RWC, keeping Manu's workload light and developing Marchant should only mean we have more options come the tournament.

We played the most physical team in world rugby and didn't need another heavy duty carrier in the backs. If we do then deploy Many against tired legs. A big ball carrier is always useful but not always needed if you have multiple players capable and willing to run good lines.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 25 Nov 2021, 8:33 am

Cole knew he had to get through a whole game too rather than go hell for leather. Class player for England and a great scrummager. Too many other players proper bottled it in that final. The situation was too big for them.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 25 Nov 2021, 8:37 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Cole knew he had to get through a whole game too rather than go hell for leather. Class player for England and a great scrummager. Too many other players proper bottled it in that final. The situation was too big for them.

I don't think since the pro era a team has managed to beat NZ and then go on to win the tournament. Yes England could have done other things to make us better but annoyingly Gatland called it and we played our final the week before Vs NZ. Just didn't have enough left in the tank.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 25 Nov 2021, 8:41 am

Disagree Sam, don't think we looked out on our feet. Mentally as I said I would say too many thought it was job done or the realisation of the situation dawned on them.

As an aside has anyone seen the video of Jones and Marchant having a chat prior to the SA game? Sometimes you feel that all the chat is about Jones being a rule with an iron rod kind of a guy, just shows you don't have a career like his without that balance.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu 25 Nov 2021, 8:42 am

Telegraph looks at depth by position. Here are the backs:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2021/11/25/englands-depth-chart-grading-resources-available-eddie-jones/

Full-back

Freddie Steward
Anthony Watson + (ACL)
Max Malins
Elliot Daly
George Furbank

Curiously, Steward is the only specialist full-back, and after an encouraging autumn it's unlikely that he will lose his place anytime soon barring injury. The young Leicester back is a hugely exciting prospect.

Assuming that England now view Elliot Daly's position at 13, which it should be, that would leave Watson and Malins in contention to cover Steward at 15. Both Watson and Malins are arguably better wingers, with Malins unlucky not to start this autumn, and Watson back hopefully next summer after his ACL rupture.

Furbank meanwhile has become a firm favourite of Jones and so is included ahead of the uncapped Northampton back Tommy Freeman, who has good size like Steward and could shuffle up the pecking order next year.

Wings

Jonny May
Anthony Watson + (ACL)
Joe Marchant
Max Malins
Elliot Daly
Adam Radwan
Louis Lynagh*
Joe Cokanasiga + (knee)
Jack Nowell
Ollie Sleightholme*

Marchant was impressive against the Springboks, particularly with his line for the Raffi Quirke try. England's preference to play a third centre out on the wing will either be an experiment or the future - perhaps we'll find out in the spring. But, if fit and given regular appearances under Jones as has been the case for years, you would imagine Watson would start on one wing with May on the other.

There are question marks here about a number of players. Cokanasiga looked great in the summer against the USA and Canada, but is now sidelined again.

Daly is now fit after missing the autumn and has been a Jones favourite and is also incredibly versatile. As for Nowell, the door appears closed for now, but it's hard to imagine it staying that way if Nowell's form picks up over the next two months. Radwan meanwhile has barely put a foot wrong in his appearances against 'tier two' opponents but is yet to be used in a big game, while surely Lynagh's time is coming after his sensational form at Harlequins.

The 10th wing slot is wide open. Sleightholme was called up in September but you could easily have Northampton's Ollie Sleightholme or London Irish's Ollie Hassell-Collins in there, not forgetting Wasps' Josh Bassett who involved in the summer or Paolo Odogwu, out with an ACL injury who was never capped in the Six Nations and remains eligible to be poached by Italy. Overall though, England have great depth here.

Outside centre

Henry Slade
Manu Tuilagi
Joe Marchant
Elliot Daly
Jonathan Joseph

Don't be fooled by Tuilagi wearing 14 the other week against Australia - he's very much a centre. Slade's performance against South Africa has secured him the 13 shirt for some time, with Tuilagi a better fit at inside centre anyway.

From there it gets interesting. Marchant has been excellent for Harlequins since coming back from Super Rugby, and deserves more caps. Daly can play 13 and did so for the Lions, but does Jones really believe that's his best position?

Then the depth gets a bit thin, with Jonathan Joseph, whose Test career seems over, rounding out the top five having been called up during the Six Nations. There's scope for a new face to put pressure on the top four 13s listed here, potentially Harlequins' Luke Northmore or for Saracens' Alex Lozowski to come back into the equation.

Inside centre

Owen Farrell
Manu Tuilagi
Mark Atkinson
Dan Kelly
Ollie Lawrence

Tricky, because England shoehorned both Farrell and Tuilagi into the same backline against Australia by selecting Tuilagi on the wing, before losing Farrell to injury. If Watson is fit, and Farrell is captain, do you go with a 12-13-14 of Farrell-Slade-Tuilagi, or Farrell-Slade-Watson, or Farrell-Tuilagi-Watson?

Look past Farrell and Tuilagi (have two players dominated thoughts about England selections more over the past decade?) and the depth is relatively untested. Mark Atkinson's size appeals after his debut against Tonga, while Dan Kelly, so impressive for Leicester before making his England debut in the summer, should come back into the mix at some point after being suspended for three weeks in October.

As for poor Ollie Lawrence, who famously received only one pass in 60 minutes against Scotland, it's hard to know what's next for such a talented player who deserves another look.

Fly-halves

Marcus Smith
Owen Farrell
George Furbank
George Ford
Jacob Umaga

The fact that Smith looks as comfortable as everyone hoped he would running England's attack, yet with so much more improvement to come, is hugely satisfying. Harlequins' title-winning No 10 will only get better with time and experience.

Having Furbank ahead of Ford might seem wild but that's the way England are currently thinking, despite Ford playing some of his best rugby for a resurgent Leicester who, barring disaster, will be involved in the Premiership play-offs.

Ford may end up being recalled in the spring and given his form, that would hardly be a shock. Jones meanwhile has repeatedly brought up Furbank's potential to play fly-half, despite only a handful of Premiership starts there.

Beyond Ford, Jacob Umaga was handed a debut for England in the summer, but the fact that he hasn't made the autumn squad, with England opting to use Furbank as a third No 10 instead, is telling.

Scrum-halves

Ben Youngs
Raffi Quirke
Harry Randall
Alex Mitchell
Dan Robson

A hugely encouraging half hour from Quirke against South Africa, capped off with a try as England followers had a glimpse of the future. Youngs will firmly remain as the starter however heading into the Six Nations, despite how his detractors feel about him.

Randall deserves a change of luck given his injuries around England camps, while Mitchell was finally capped against Tonga after several apprentice runs.

As for Dan Robson, his time appears to have come and gone despite having hardly let England down when called upon. Beyond Youngs, this is a group light on caps and Test experience, but high on potential.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu 25 Nov 2021, 8:45 am

And the forwards:

Loosehead

Ellis Genge
Joe Marler
Bevan Rodd
Beno Obano + (ACL)
Mako Vunipola

Full credit to Rodd for exceeding expectations, and it was interesting last week hearing what Joe Marler made of Rodd's performance against Australia, having watched the 21-year-old's debut from home on his sofa as he recovered from Covid.

"Specifically, from a technical point of view scrummaging-wise, he was very good at standing in front of [James] Slipper, the tighthead, rather than kicking his arse out too often. That is an easy out for a loosehead when the pressure comes on.

"You can get slightly worried, not trusting the hooker next to you and make something happen. The easy thing to do is to step left and kick your arse out to make that gap between you and your hooker even bigger to try and go after their tighthead on your own.

"There was maybe once or twice that he veered going that way. The others, he just stayed in front of [Slipper], kept plugging away and adapted well in the second half against a smart operator, albeit out of position. I was just really impressed that the level of concentration needed at scrum-time didn’t take away from his work around the pitch.

"He still had the confidence to carry, he was still putting his had up to make tackles. There was a little offload out the back that was just pure joué - it was lovely. You want to see a loosehead joué, that looks good. I was pleased for him, he’s a really nice kid."

Genge, the Leicester captain, will start again come the Six Nations and having Marler as his replacement gives England excellent depth. And that's before bringing Mako Vunipola into the mix. Surely his time with England isn't over, but the fact that Jones opted to call up Gloucester's Harry Elrington instead this autumn when Covid struck Genge and Marler was interesting.

Don't forget about Beno Obano either, currently sidelined with an ACL rupture but part of that September camp (Vunipola wasn't). England have turned to the Bath prop in the past and wouldn't hesitate to do so again.

Hooker

Luke Cowan-Dickie + (ankle)
Jamie George
Jamie Blamire
Nic Dolly
Alfie Barbeary*

Cowan-Dickie's ankle injury on the cusp of the autumn Tests was ill-timed - the Exeter hooker was fresh off three starts for the Lions and would have been England's first choice in the autumn.

George, don't forget, wasn't even in the original squad, which seemed bizarre at the time of his omission and then looked exceptionally odd after he was called up following Cowan-Dickie's injury, before starting against Tonga and Australia.

Blamire and Dolly have had promising moments - particularly Blamire's ridiculous try-scoring record - but will need more time to be fully evaluated. Dolly should thrive again heading back to title-chasing Leicester.

As for the fifth slot, you could pick Gabriel Oghre or Jack Singleton or Curtis Langdon or Sam Riley. But Barbeary according to the Coventry Telegraph could be back in action this week, which would be a welcome sight for all followers of English rugby after his explosive performances last season. While raw, the potential is fascinating.

Tighthead

Kyle Sinckler
Will Stuart
Trevor Davison
Joe Heyes
Paul Hill

Perhaps the main area of concern, because after Sinckler and Stuart there is potential but a lack of Test caps. Sinckler without question is the number one option, continuing to impress not only as a front-row but as a leader too in this England side. Stuart when on form has a lot to offer too.

Joe Heyes wasn't called up for the autumn but has felt like a long-term option for England at tighthead with his form for Leicester, battling for a start with in-form Dan Cole (remember him).

Jones clearly likes Davison, who can cover loosehead if required, and Hill's return in the summer after years in the Test wilderness was interesting. But England look a little thin here once you get past the top two, at least until Heyes is given a long run to develop into the top international he can be.

Locks

Maro Itoje
Jonny Hill
Courtney Lawes
Joe Launchbury + (ACL)
Charlie Ewels
Harry Wells
David Ribbans*
Josh McNally
Nick Isiekwe
Ted Hill

With Lawes now England's starting blindside, Itoje and Hill continue to grow as a partnership and had a good autumn given the disruption ahead of them in the front row.

Joe Launchbury's return will change all that, with the Wasps lock in such good form until he ruptured his ACL back in April. The current estimate is that Launchbury will be fit again in December, just in time for the Six Nations, which is excellent news for club and country.

Beyond those four, England have happily turned to Ewels again, although Wells at Leicester looks as though he has plenty to offer.

David Ribbans still holds some promise, despite a ban in the summer costing him the chance to make his debut, while McNally's caps and Hill's brief spell as a lock in the summer feel like one-time experiments.

It's been an age since Nick Isiekwe was last capped but he is still just 23, ran the lineout at Northampton when on loan last season and surely he would be considered in the midst of an injury crisis.

Otherwise, Newcastle's Sean Robinson plus London Irish's Chunya Munga, an apprentice in the summer, might be considered. Anyway, the quartet of Itoje, Hill, Lawes and Launchbury alone make this an excellent group, even though England miss George Kruis.

Blindside flanker

Courtney Lawes
Maro Itoje
Sam Underhill
Mark Wilson + (knee)
Lewis Ludlam

Three names not in the top five are Ben Curry, who England would happily turn to if needed, Lewis Ludlow, who was liked so much by Jones in the summer that the Gloucester skipper captained his country in two Tests, and George Martin, capped in the Six Nations, is viewed more as a six rather than a lock currently by Jones, hence his place here in the pecking order.

Wilson would no doubt have been involved, after four starts in the Six Nations, but the Newcastle flanker has been sidelined since September with a knee injury.

England are lucky to have two lock-flanker hybrids in Lawes and Itoje who are world class in both positions, while Sam Underhill can obviously shift across if needed (but is better as the starting openside). Ludlam too has been unlucky to not win more caps.

Openside flanker

Sam Underhill
Tom Curry
Lewis Ludlam
Jack Willis + (MCL/meniscus)
Ben Earl

Given that Willis is still recovering from his awful knee injury and started in the last Six Nations, while Ben Earl couldn't even get in the autumn squad, England are certainly strong here.

Underhill together with Curry tends to lead to England producing some of their best rugby and their back-row combination with Lawes as the blindside was a success.

Willis should challenge them both once fit again, along with Newcastle's Wilson, and for more competition why not look to the Premiership champions, with Jack Kenningham, who was called up in the summer, and (when fit again) Will Evans both potential options.

No 8s

Tom Curry
Alex Dombrandt
Sam Simmonds
Callum Chick
Billy Vunipola

Things must be going well if Billy Vunipola is your fifth-choice option, right? England are blessed here. The Tom Curry experiment now feels permanent, with Jones a big believer in Curry's ability to play No 8 and the balance with Lawes and Underhill working well.

But how about the options in reserve. Dombrandt has had flashes of brilliance this autumn and England can lean on him more in the Six Nations, while the return of Simmonds to the England setup is a welcome sight after ripping up the Premiership over the past three years.

A bit like fellow Newcastle players Blamire and Davison, Jones has taken a shine to Chick too. Where does all this leave Vunipola? It's a good question.

Before his injury he looked in good touch for Saracens, refreshed, and like his brother, with all Vunipola's experience, surely this isn't the end. England certainly don't lack for options here, with Wilson also able to provide cover.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 25 Nov 2021, 8:45 am

I've just jumped forward in time and started having cold sweats as we line up with Slade at 12 and Daly at 13 against Scotland.

by Soul Requiem Thu 25 Nov 2021, 9:18 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Disagree Sam, don't think we looked out on our feet. Mentally as I said I would say too many thought it was job done or the realisation of the situation dawned on them.

As an aside has anyone seen the video of Jones and Marchant having a chat prior to the SA game? Sometimes you feel that all the chat is about Jones being a rule with an iron rod kind of a guy, just shows you don't have a career like his without that balance.

I can't recall any ex England player having a bad word to say about Jones including the ones he possibly jettisoned a bit early. It's pretty clear that if you work as hard as he demands in training that he's got a more agreeable side to him, only have to look at the way he treats Marler who let's be honest looks from the outside to be a handful at times in camp.

by Big Thu 25 Nov 2021, 9:46 am

The Telegraph article is possibly correct with respect to Jones' way of thinking, but I can't help but note that if all first choicers are fit and available that gives you a midfield of Farrell and Slade...

Farrell seems a bit of an enigma to me, in that as fans we generally aren't his biggest supporters, but all his peers rave about him. I don't for a second doubt his commitment, work rate, and work ethic - and arguably his game planning (even if I'm less impressed with the potential to change approach mid game). I'm beginning to wonder though whether he's a bit like Borthwick when he was England captain. Many felt when he was playing he didn't quite have the physical presence be at the top level internationally, but now he is a coach you can see exactly what he brings in terms of culture and tactical thinking, and why teams would have been so keen to have him. On that basis would it be better to have Farrell as a squad captain, but accept that maybe he's going to be on the bench or not even in the 23? And looking further ahead can we expect to see him move into a successful coaching career like Borthwick (and Farrell snr)?

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