England Autumn Internationals - MARK II

First topic message reminder :

England squad for autumn Tests:

Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Jamie George (Saracens), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Nic Dolly (Leicester), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath)

Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), George Furbank (Northampton), Max Malins (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Henry Slade (Exeter), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Joe Marchant (Quins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

In Positions:
1.Marler, Genge
2.George, Blamire, Dolly
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Davison
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds, Chick

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith

11.May, Radwan
12.Farrell, Atkinson
13.Tuilagi, Slade
14.Freeman, Marchant
15.Steward, Malins, Furbank
-------------------------------------------------
England v Tonga - 6th November
England v Australia - 13th November
England v South Africa - 20th November

I could get behind that 23. The biggest caveat is that I am not sure Stuart is the answer at 18. Good around the park but vulnerable in the scrum.

Agreed, I'm not convinced by Stuart at all.

Heyes is talented but second choice at Tigers.

I still think Cole is England's second best TH to be honest.

Looks pretty good. I'd like to Ribbans move ahead of Ewels and potentially be a bench option, maybe with him and Martin to come on and physically dominate.

Willis sounds like he's out for the season now.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Looks pretty good. I'd like to Ribbans move ahead of Ewels and potentially be a bench option, maybe with him and Martin to come on and physically dominate.

Purely as a lock I'd pick Ribbans at the moment for that bench spot and would favour him to Ewels as I think Ribbans has a higher ceiling.

I put Martin there as he's been in recent squads though and Lawes can shift into the row offering flexibility. Martin is offering more and more as a carrier this season to go with his always impressive defence. Interestingly Tigers having a few back row absentees through injury and suspension could see Martin get a start at 8 over the next couple of weekends.

I see your thinking, that's why I'd potentially look at putting him at backrow cover. Really like the look of Martin, he's got that look of a player who can shine at Int level. A little more bulk perhaps and aggression and he'll be a regular.

Big fan of Ribbans, and have been for some time. A shout out for Will Collier, who’s probably the best scrummaging EQP tighthead right now. Apparently he hasn’t given up a scrum penalty in over 18 months.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Doc, does that mean that France will leave all their un-vacced players at home for the away matches? If they are in the bubble nothing stopping them playing in the away games. I realise that it is not a decision taken by the FRU, but a bit hypocritical to say you can't play you full side here, but we can send our to you. Do they not have exemtions for people that say have had bad reactions to the flu vaccine and might be at risk from the Covid ones?

Any unvaccinated players will not be allowed to play in the French league as I read it so the French national team is very unlikely to have an unvaccinated player in it.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I see your thinking, that's why I'd potentially look at putting him at backrow cover. Really like the look of Martin, he's got that look of a player who can shine at Int level. A little more bulk perhaps and aggression and he'll be a regular.

With his tackling you can't say he lacks aggression, he is a little quiet on the pitch which might count against him. He was very good in the lineout Vs Bristol last weekend which may count in his favour though.

I agree with KC, Martin's next couple of games where he's likely to be the main carrier in the backrow will show us how close he is to being ready for international rugby. He's got the defensive game both in big hits and work rate.

Poorfour wrote:Big fan of Ribbans, and have been for some time. A shout out for Will Collier, who’s probably the best scrummaging EQP tighthead right now. Apparently he hasn’t given up a scrum penalty in over 18 months.

Ah well England will sharp train that out of him...

Daly is back playing then. Sad times for England.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Daly is back playing then. Sad times for England.

He won't get a look in

Poorfour wrote:Big fan of Ribbans, and have been for some time. A shout out for Will Collier, who’s probably the best scrummaging EQP tighthead right now. Apparently he hasn’t given up a scrum penalty in over 18 months.

Well done Adam Jones, not there to just order the pizza's afterall.

mikey_dragon wrote:Well done Adam Jones, not there to just order the pizza's afterall.

You jest, but Jones has been great for Quins both on and off the pitch. It took him one game (playing at loosehead for 78 minutes having expected not to play at all and destroying two international tightheads) to earn legendary status with the fans, and as a coach he's got Quins to the point where our scrum is statistically the best in the league and we've no worries seeing our 3rd choice props trot onto the pitch. His falling out with Gatland was a very good bit of business for Quins.

The biggest worry is how long it will be before Wales tempts him back with a coaching role at national level.

Daly has played some very good games for England in the wing spot. Lets not forget that. The Full back experiment failed though.

I dont think he'll get back either...unless its as a winger, and even then...he has huge competition now.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Daly has played some very good games for England in the wing spot. Lets not forget that. The Full back experiment failed though.

I dont think he'll get back either...unless its as a winger, and even then...he has huge competition now.

Agreed, but Malins looks a better prospect now (not the same kicking game and maybe a little less elusive but more aggressive and more flexible)

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Daly has played some very good games for England in the wing spot. Lets not forget that. The Full back experiment failed though.

I dont think he'll get back either...unless its as a winger, and even then...he has huge competition now.

Agreed, but Malins looks a better prospect now (not the same kicking game and maybe a little less elusive but more aggressive and more flexible)

Theres a genuine list of players you could use here LIW. Although...Malins is losing my support wearing those tights!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Daly has played some very good games for England in the wing spot. Lets not forget that. The Full back experiment failed though.

I dont think he'll get back either...unless its as a winger, and even then...he has huge competition now.

Agreed, but Malins looks a better prospect now (not the same kicking game and maybe a little less elusive but more aggressive and more flexible)

Theres a genuine list of players you could use here LIW. Although...Malins is losing my support wearing those tights!

I was just thinking of him as a like for like replacement. I do want to see more of Radwan (and wonder what Jones is concerned about) because he has the kind of skills that cause nightmares for opposition defenses.

Poorfour wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well done Adam Jones, not there to just order the pizza's afterall.

You jest, but Jones has been great for Quins both on and off the pitch. It took him one game (playing at loosehead for 78 minutes having expected not to play at all and destroying two international tightheads) to earn legendary status with the fans, and as a coach he's got Quins to the point where our scrum is statistically the best in the league and we've no worries seeing our 3rd choice props trot onto the pitch. His falling out with Gatland was a very good bit of business for Quins.

The biggest worry is how long it will be before Wales tempts him back with a coaching role at national level.

Soon we hope, look at the state of our forwards under Humphreys. Backwards at every scrum and lineout.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well done Adam Jones, not there to just order the pizza's afterall.

You jest, but Jones has been great for Quins both on and off the pitch. It took him one game (playing at loosehead for 78 minutes having expected not to play at all and destroying two international tightheads) to earn legendary status with the fans, and as a coach he's got Quins to the point where our scrum is statistically the best in the league and we've no worries seeing our 3rd choice props trot onto the pitch. His falling out with Gatland was a very good bit of business for Quins.

The biggest worry is how long it will be before Wales tempts him back with a coaching role at national level.

Soon we hope, look at the state of our forwards under Humphreys. Backwards at every scrum and lineout.

Agreed, though some of the issues is stemming from the second rowers, for whatever reason they aren't stable & are moving their feet too much to offer the front rowers stability.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Daly has played some very good games for England in the wing spot. Lets not forget that. The Full back experiment failed though.

I dont think he'll get back either...unless its as a winger, and even then...he has huge competition now.

Agreed, but Malins looks a better prospect now (not the same kicking game and maybe a little less elusive but more aggressive and more flexible)

Theres a genuine list of players you could use here LIW. Although...Malins is losing my support wearing those tights!

I was just thinking of him as a like for like replacement. I do want to see more of Radwan (and wonder what Jones is concerned about) because he has the kind of skills that cause nightmares for opposition defenses.

Well clearly Jones is looking for something from Radwan that hes not providing at the moment. Im clearly a huge fan, but Radwan has some serious competition.

Im a big fan of Sleightholme...then theres the LI boys, Cokasaniga if he can regain form and fitness, Odogwu if he can also regain fitness and his pre injury form (though id like to see him at centre). Daly...played some good games at wing...he cant be counted out. Lynagh is there...the old guard...Johnny may and Watson. Thorley at Glos...plus others ive missed.

Thats some genuinely high level competition for 2 places. I hated the idea of Malins on the wing...as i really see him as a 10...but in the AI's i found myself liking the idea of him there.

I can't see Odogwu ever having the high ball or kicking game to be an international wing. If he can get his tackling and defensive alignment right at 13 he could be an electric running option in the centres though.

Thorley's issues are definitely defensive and high ball related too. With his pace and power there's no issues going forward. Radwan offering similar going forward with even better footwork and much better basics in defence has probably pushed Thorley out for now.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Daly has played some very good games for England in the wing spot. Lets not forget that. The Full back experiment failed though.

I dont think he'll get back either...unless its as a winger, and even then...he has huge competition now.

Agreed, but Malins looks a better prospect now (not the same kicking game and maybe a little less elusive but more aggressive and more flexible)

Theres a genuine list of players you could use here LIW. Although...Malins is losing my support wearing those tights!

I was just thinking of him as a like for like replacement. I do want to see more of Radwan (and wonder what Jones is concerned about) because he has the kind of skills that cause nightmares for opposition defenses.

Well clearly Jones is looking for something from Radwan that hes not providing at the moment. Im clearly a huge fan, but Radwan has some serious competition.

Im a big fan of Sleightholme...then theres the LI boys, Cokasaniga if he can regain form and fitness, Odogwu if he can also regain fitness and his pre injury form (though id like to see him at centre). Daly...played some good games at wing...he cant be counted out. Lynagh is there...the old guard...Johnny may and Watson. Thorley at Glos...plus others ive missed.

Thats some genuinely high level competition for 2 places. I hated the idea of Malins on the wing...as i really see him as a 10...but in the AI's i found myself liking the idea of him there.

Sadly Cokasaniga seems to be injured all the time but looked great last summer. Odogwu has to come back from a serious injury but as you say seems to be much more in line for a chance at 13. Thorley seems to have really peed Eddie off (and I believe has suffered poor form and reduced chances to play with Gloucs preferred options being May and LRZ). Lynagh has been namechecked and isn't far off. The likes of Sleightholme and Hassell-Collins seem to be a step further behind.

Nowell and Watson are always broken. Some great talent but in practice for the 6N we have May on one wing and an opportunity on the other. Will be very interesting to see who gets the nod but Malins will be at least in the squad. I suspect the other wing will be one of Marchant, Malins, Radwan and Lynagh with Lynagh being least likely, and most of us preferring Marchant in the centers.

Eddie has apparently asked Quins to play Marchant more on the wing, so he definitely needs to be considered as a wing even though his best position is 13 (and Smith / Slade / Marchant vs the Boks were as good a midfield for England as I've seen since 2003).

I suspect both Malins and Marchant will be around the 23 through to the RWC. They may not start, but their ability to cover 10, 11, 13, 14 and 15 between them gives Eddie a lot of flexibility.

Agreed. Most benches now seem to be a 6.2 split by definition now require the back subs to be versatile and probably the starting 13,14 & 15.

Odogwu really started to impress at 13 so I'd be surprised if he ever started on the wing for England. I'd rather see any of the options above though over Daly. And I can see him parachuted straight back in.

Hate the 6 2 bench with a passion.

I can see the back 3 for the 6n being...

11 May
14 Malins
15 Steward

But i really wish Jones would focus on Marchant as a 13 not wing.

Meanwhile at 13 Manu is apparently going to be fit for selection..but how on earth can you rely on him. And Farrell is back also

I'd be utterly amazed if we don't see this midfield.
10 Smith
12 Farrell
13 Slade

I wouldn't be surprised by that. Along with Youngs again at 9.

king_carlos wrote:I can't see Odogwu ever having the high ball or kicking game to be an international wing. If he can get his tackling and defensive alignment right at 13 he could be an electric running option in the centres though.

.

I agree...if he can develop right he could be a very interesting option at 13

No 7&1/2 wrote:I wouldn't be surprised by that. Along with Youngs again at 9.

Most likely..

9 Youngs
10 Smith
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Slade
14 Malins
15 Steward

As much as you can predict what Jones will do it seems likely. I suppose the question posed on France's ban in unvaccinated players brings into question at least Slade from that.

I'd love to see us go in with Quirke, Smith, May Farrell Tuilagi/Marchant, Radwan and Steward though.

Well Slade is the only one who would be an issue if France keep up their policy at the moment.

But he can be replaced by Manu or Marchant.

That would be quite a lineup 7.5. i hope Quirke gets plenty of gametime if hes still in good form.

Didn't realise Farrell isn't back until back end of January either. That may offer Jones a reason to leave him out and try some of these other options. Nearly everyone seemed happy with Slade offering a better option to that second playmaker position, so leaves open a space potentially.

I think its a case of Slade + Smith is better than Smith + Farrell or Farrell + Slade.

Slade did seem like a player transformed in the Autumn, and looked to be finally fulfilling his promise.

I'd still go with he had some delightful passes and moves from planned first phase ball and some dreadful moments when making decisions on the hoof. The more I see him the more I just feel he's not quite good enough in attack. Should Tuilagi be fit, and yes GF rightly asks for how long, he should get more time on the ball to make better decisions though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd still go with he had some delightful passes and moves from planned first phase ball and some dreadful moments when making decisions on the hoof.

I agree completely with this. Slade has been very good in attack from phase play but when things open up more he's had some really dire moments too. If we can buy him space through phase play and give him easy decisions (such as against the Boks for Quirke's try where he was either going to crash up or pop to Marchant) he's been fleetingly excellent but he's made a lot of unforced handling errors and thrown poor passes when under more pressure too. For that reason I don't really see Slade as a second five-eighth.

Importantly though Slade is a fantastic defender, organiser and communicator at 13 which is widely regarded as the most difficult position to defend in the modern game. Slade is very good indeed at that role. I will admit that defensive alignment and how England's aggressive blitz defence around the fringes bridges with it's hybrid 'bend don't break' system wider out isn't exactly an exciting or sexy part of rugby but it is still kinda important if England want to win anything against good teams.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well Slade is the only one who would be an issue if France keep up their policy at the moment.

But he can be replaced by Manu or Marchant.

That would be quite a lineup 7.5. i hope Quirke gets plenty of gametime if hes still in good form.

I hope Quirke's fit. He does seem to pick up a lot of injuries. He's only managed five games for Sale this season and if he doesn't play this weekend he won't have played in a month. It would be one thing if Sale were rotating him out on the squad periodically for general squad maintenance as Youngs hasn't played much more for Tigers due to the rotation policy but it appears injury concerns. He does have one knee heavily strapped up.

I really hope he is fit because he's the one possible successor to Youngs that looks like he might actually be the successor.

The dream that we pick a scrum half with a good pass continues. Maybe he'll get van Poortvliet in there soon too. Just let them 2 battle it out for the next 5 to 10 years. Randall as back up.

Thinking about the impact of the Australian governments approach to Djokovic, it could be pretty similar for Slade and any others scared of Bill Gates being able to track them with vaccine. Perhaps Jones will want to avoid the controversy on that altogether?

Wouldnt it be interesting if Esterhuizen the Quins centre had some form of English Granny. He hasnt played for SA in over 3 years so would qualify under the new World Rugby rules.

How would people feel about that? Unhappy or happy?

He's a really good player and is a standout for Harlequins in the prem. I have my doubts he'd be as effective at international level but if he was English qualified I'd have been calling for him to be given a chance.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wouldnt it be interesting if Esterhuizen the Quins centre had some form of English Granny. He hasnt played for SA in over 3 years so would qualify under the new World Rugby rules.

How would people feel about that? Unhappy or happy?

He'd walk into the England team....he's exactly what we've crying out for really for about 15 years. But, he's South African and pretty sure he's not got an English granny stuffed away.

Im just thinking that this now is the reality with the new laws....that he could potentially play for England in the 6n if he had some relative (Granny etc)

I really dont like it....!

We could get the Welsh admin team in from the 90s perhaps, help us out with some documents?

Got to play to the rules, I'd have him in a heartbeat if he was qualified. Other countries would be scouring the Facebook pages of his grandma as we speak

Just be prepared to see more of this i think...its going to happen.

With regard to Slade, I dredges up this from the Chiefs website.

"Not only as a professional sportsman, but also a person who has to closely monitor my health levels every day, I am acutely aware of the importance of vaccines and the role it plays in helping save lives.

From my own personal experience, I have encountered issues in the past with the use of vaccines and I am continually wary around this area. That said, I have no hidden agenda against the current, nationwide roll-out of the Covid-19 vaccination programme.

When the time comes for me to make an informed decision on whether or not I take up the option of having the vaccination, I will of course consider the thoughts of my family and friends, the latest Government advice, as well as all others around me.

In no way whatsoever am I offering advice to the general public as to the pros and cons of the vaccination programme, everyone has a right to their own opinion on this matter, but given my past experiences, I wish to make the correct decision for myself."

Sounds to me like he would have been allowed into Australia if he played tennis as he could probably get a medical waiver.

After the initial reports that he would not have the vaccine, has there been any further comments or evidence that he hasn't, the statement says that he is yet to make up his mind.

Thats the blurb that came out from the PR team when they were scrambling remember. He wouldn't be allowed in Aus at the moment for that. I believe he's still to have his first let alone all.

Slade is, like me, a type 1 diabetic so naturally is far more susceptible to infections than a regular person. I don't understand his reasoning myself. I had pneumonia 4 years ago, and it took me ages to get over it. Covid would be worse.

Granted that I am not an international sportsman and nor do I have his powers of recuperation, but I do find it odd that someone with an underlying health condition will not consider something that could go some way to preventing a lengthy hospital stay. Everyone has their own reasons for taking/not taking the vaccine and I am not criticising his choice - I just struggle to understand it. He should not be given any special treatment regarding travel etc. Don't want the jab? No problem, but if not, you must abide by whatever rules are applied.

It brings new meaning to avoid like the plague, there are plenty who would be patting zombies in a sci fi situation saying that anyone saying its unwise is denying their freedoms.

I was wondering about whether there is an enclave in Exeter for anti vax stuff and just saw Hepburn's comments. particularly liked ' There is no higher claim to ones safety than that of the individual, only you can negotiate the trials and tribulations of life and the risk it presents to yourself. I write this not to merely share an opinion on the matter but to encourage others to think critically and evaluate the role of government and the bad precedents being set.'

Nowell backed him up. So it does seem more likely to me that it's that libertarian approach to public health measures rather than a real concern.

Bit of Fun....

Anyone fancy having a stab (purely hypothetical i know) at a "possible" England side for the 2027 World Cup....?