Scotland 2022 summer tour

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Scotland 2022 Six Nations Lookahead

A place to discuss the rollercoaster of dark horse conversation and sheer despair. Somewhere in-between, someone will go off on a mild tangent.

Schedule
5th Feb - England (H)
12th Feb - Wales (A)
26th Feb - France (H)
12th March - Italy (A)
19th March - Ireland (A)

Scotland's recent performances
2021: 4th (3 wins, same as 2nd)
2020: 4th (3 wins, same points as 3rd)
2019: 5th (1 win, 1 draw)
2018: 3rd (3 wins, same as 2nd)
2017: 4th (3 wins, same points as 2nd)

Like the look of that side bsando. I hope Toonie decides to roll the dice more on the youngsters and hutch. I have a feeling hutch will stay at FB though as Toonie tends to go more conservative after a loss. Smith may make an appearance from the bench.

One change I'd definitely like to see is Scott Cummings starting. We talk a lot about the impact of losing Ritchie, but I'd say Cummings isn't too far behind him given what he brings. We're not blessed with big carriers and Cummings is probably one of our best. Given any team needs front foot ball, his dynamism and go forwards has been a big loss.

The wheels have definitely come off the U 20's.
Final score Scotland 17 Georgia 55.
Half time score: 12 - 26.
The future doesn't look too clever for Scottish rugby.
Take a bow Mark Dodson, super6 is working a treat as a proving ground for the next generation of Scottish pro players. Feel sorry for the players but our rate of decay is frightening at this level
They will get to finish off with a game against the 4th based team in the other pool
Likely to be England or France!

Actually U 20's get to play Ireland who finished 4th in pool A, despite a thrilling 37-. 36 win against England, secured with the final kick of the game
Ireland remember were 6 N's U 20 grand slam champs this year. Oh dear, what a shame, never mind. Can we avoid 14 losses on the bounce?

sensisball wrote:The wheels have definitely come off the U 20's.
Final score Scotland 17 Georgia 55.
Half time score: 12 - 26.
The future doesn't look too clever for Scottish rugby.
Take a bow Mark Dodson, super6 is working a treat as a proving ground for the next generation of Scottish pro players. Feel sorry for the players but our rate of decay is frightening at this level
They will get to finish off with a game against the 4th based team in the other pool
Likely to be England or France!

Most of the under 20s rarely play in the Super 6 which is completely daft!

Kenny Murray said their conditioning is not developed enough for this level. Good read I thought, I don’t know a lot about the U20’s but despite the losses some of these players will no doubt go on to be very good pros. Just seems like a bit of mess up by SRU.

https://www.theoffsideline.com/six-nations-u20-summer-series-scotland-hammered-by-georgia/

I think unfortunately, a lot of these kids have lost 2 years of their development due to covid.

It is a bit to soon to judge how effective Super 6 will be with helping them develop as that has also bedn day effected by the pandemic.

We do need to start seeing sn improvement sokn though and is something that needs to be given top priority by the SRU

You've got to wonder about the conditioning thing and how that could happen. Yes, you need games to get full 'game fit' conditioning, but if they've not been playing rugby for 2 years surely they've been spending a lot of time training, in the gym and doing fitness training and conditioning??

BigGee wrote:I think unfortunately, a lot of these kids have lost 2 years of their development due to covid.

It is a bit to soon to judge how effective Super 6 will be with helping them develop as that has also bedn day effected by the pandemic.

We do need to start seeing sn improvement sokn though and is something that needs to be given top priority by the SRU

How come Wales, Italy and Georgia have managed to maintain standards during COVID? Perhaps our stricter lockdown policy under Scottish administration made things worse?

Pablo Matera, the Pumas back row, just signed with a club in Japan for a reported salary of just under 1 million pounds per year. Seems he (sensibly) turned down an offer from Bath in the process.

sensisball wrote:

BigGee wrote:I think unfortunately, a lot of these kids have lost 2 years of their development due to covid.

It is a bit to soon to judge how effective Super 6 will be with helping them develop as that has also bedn day effected by the pandemic.

We do need to start seeing sn improvement sokn though and is something that needs to be given top priority by the SRU

How come Wales, Italy and Georgia have managed to maintain standards during COVID? Perhaps our stricter lockdown policy under Scottish administration made things worse?

If these U20s are behind on their conditioning, then that must be largely down to the players and their own self-discipline and self-motivation.
If they have serious aspirations of becoming pro rugby players, then they need to be more determined to progress themselves independently, as well as working hard in any structured set up.
I wonder how much of the poor results happening is down to a lack of professionalism on the individuals part?

Anglobraveheart wrote:

sensisball wrote:

BigGee wrote:I think unfortunately, a lot of these kids have lost 2 years of their development due to covid.

It is a bit to soon to judge how effective Super 6 will be with helping them develop as that has also bedn day effected by the pandemic.

We do need to start seeing sn improvement sokn though and is something that needs to be given top priority by the SRU

How come Wales, Italy and Georgia have managed to maintain standards during COVID? Perhaps our stricter lockdown policy under Scottish administration made things worse?

If these U20s are behind on their conditioning, then that must be largely down to the players and their own self-discipline and self-motivation.
If they have serious aspirations of becoming pro rugby players, then they need to be more determined to progress themselves independently, as well as working hard in any structured set up.
I wonder how much of the poor results happening is down to a lack of professionalism on the individuals part?

Bit of a big leap to make there, bearing in mind the average 18/19 year old not long out of school rugby probably has no idea how to become a top class athlete and needs coaching. This is about S&C, training and coaching.

Scotland team to face Argentina at the Estadio Padre Ernesto Martearena, Salta, live on Sky Sports, Saturday 9 July - kick-off 8.10pm BST.

15. Rory Hutchinson - Northampton Saints - 6 caps
14. Darcy Graham - Edinburgh Rugby - 28 caps
13. Mark Bennett - Edinburgh Rugby - 25 caps
12. Sam Johnson - Glasgow Warriors - 25 caps
11. Duhan van der Merwe - Worcester Warriors - 17 caps
10. Blair Kinghorn - Edinburgh Rugby - 32 caps
9. Ben White - London Irish - 5 caps
1. Pierre Schoeman - Edinburgh Rugby - 10 caps
2. Dave Cherry - Edinburgh Rugby - 5 caps
3. Zander Fagerson - Glasgow Warriors - 48 caps
4. Sam Skinner - Edinburgh Rugby - 21 caps
5. Grant Gilchrist - Edinburgh Rugby - (Captain) - 54 caps
6. Rory Darge - Glasgow Warriors - 5 caps
7. Hamish Watson - Edinburgh Rugby (Vice-Captain) - 49 caps
8. Matt Fagerson - Glasgow Warriors - 22 caps

Replacements

16. George Turner - Glasgow Warriors - 26 caps
17. Jamie Bhatti - Glasgow Warriors - 22 caps
18. Javan Sebastian - Scarlets - 2 caps
19. Scott Cummings - Glasgow Warriors - 21 caps
20. Andy Christie - Saracens - 1 cap
21. Ali Price - Glasgow Warriors - 52 caps
22. Ross Thompson - Glasgow Warriors - 1 cap
23. Kyle Rowe - London Irish - uncapped

So, quite clear from that side that Townside is focused on the win more than anything. No Oli Smith/Mclean in the backline, no Hutchinson to 12 (gutted at that one) Watson and Darge back in...

Fair play, if they lose its a bit of a missed opportunity to try out other options but heyho

RDW wrote:

Anglobraveheart wrote:

sensisball wrote:

BigGee wrote:I think unfortunately, a lot of these kids have lost 2 years of their development due to covid.

It is a bit to soon to judge how effective Super 6 will be with helping them develop as that has also bedn day effected by the pandemic.

We do need to start seeing sn improvement sokn though and is something that needs to be given top priority by the SRU

How come Wales, Italy and Georgia have managed to maintain standards during COVID? Perhaps our stricter lockdown policy under Scottish administration made things worse?

If these U20s are behind on their conditioning, then that must be largely down to the players and their own self-discipline and self-motivation.
If they have serious aspirations of becoming pro rugby players, then they need to be more determined to progress themselves independently, as well as working hard in any structured set up.
I wonder how much of the poor results happening is down to a lack of professionalism on the individuals part?

Bit of a big leap to make there, bearing in mind the average 18/19 year old not long out of school rugby probably has no idea how to become a top class athlete and needs coaching. This is about S&C, training and coaching.

Agreed with RDW, It may be different for the privately educated but if any of these lads are state schooled they won't have had any extra help with fitness/condition/weightlifting etc

RDW wrote:

Anglobraveheart wrote:

sensisball wrote:

BigGee wrote:I think unfortunately, a lot of these kids have lost 2 years of their development due to covid.

It is a bit to soon to judge how effective Super 6 will be with helping them develop as that has also bedn day effected by the pandemic.

We do need to start seeing sn improvement sokn though and is something that needs to be given top priority by the SRU

How come Wales, Italy and Georgia have managed to maintain standards during COVID? Perhaps our stricter lockdown policy under Scottish administration made things worse?

If these U20s are behind on their conditioning, then that must be largely down to the players and their own self-discipline and self-motivation.
If they have serious aspirations of becoming pro rugby players, then they need to be more determined to progress themselves independently, as well as working hard in any structured set up.
I wonder how much of the poor results happening is down to a lack of professionalism on the individuals part?

Bit of a big leap to make there, bearing in mind the average 18/19 year old not long out of school rugby probably has no idea how to become a top class athlete and needs coaching. This is about S&C, training and coaching.

I have to disagree.
I took myself to a local weight training location 40 years ago as a 16yo. I played Div 6 rugby the year after. That was 4 decades ago!
I have been one of the coaches with my eldest lad's squad from u6 in the NW of England, and some of that now u18 squad have Been doing their own S&C since they were 15, and have organised this themselves.
6 of our squad have gone on to Academy RL contracts, successfully and 1 has gone on to a Premiership academy squad.
These are just kids from our squad who have cracked on with it, and are now into pro set ups. They are 16 and 17, and 4 of them have played in Superleague reserve matches.
I can't help but feel that 18 and 19 year olds in a National set up that are a long way behind on conditioning, maybe haven't been putting enough into it themselves? - it can't all fall to the clubs or national set-up, surely? - or maybe I'm way off the mark?

Oh, and we are a community club, not anything to do with private schools.

15. Rory Hutchinson - Northampton Saints - 6 caps
14. Darcy Graham - Edinburgh Rugby - 28 caps
13. Mark Bennett - Edinburgh Rugby - 25 caps
12. Sam Johnson - Glasgow Warriors - 25 caps
11. Duhan van der Merwe - Worcester Warriors - 17 caps
10. Blair Kinghorn - Edinburgh Rugby - 32 caps
9. Ben White - London Irish - 5 caps
1. Pierre Schoeman - Edinburgh Rugby - 10 caps
2. Dave Cherry - Edinburgh Rugby - 5 caps
3. Zander Fagerson - Glasgow Warriors - 48 caps
4. Sam Skinner - Edinburgh Rugby - 21 caps
5. Grant Gilchrist - Edinburgh Rugby - (Captain) - 54 caps
6. Rory Darge - Glasgow Warriors - 5 caps
7. Hamish Watson - Edinburgh Rugby (Vice-Captain) - 49 caps
8. Matt Fagerson - Glasgow Warriors - 22 caps

Replacements

16. George Turner - Glasgow Warriors - 26 caps
17. Jamie Bhatti - Glasgow Warriors - 22 caps
18. Javan Sebastian - Scarlets - 2 caps
19. Scott Cummings - Glasgow Warriors - 21 caps
20. Andy Christie - Saracens - 1 cap
21. Ali Price - Glasgow Warriors - 52 caps
22. Ross Thompson - Glasgow Warriors - 1 cap
23. Kyle Rowe - London Irish - uncapped

Anglobraveheart wrote:

RDW wrote:

Anglobraveheart wrote:

sensisball wrote:

BigGee wrote:I think unfortunately, a lot of these kids have lost 2 years of their development due to covid.

It is a bit to soon to judge how effective Super 6 will be with helping them develop as that has also bedn day effected by the pandemic.

We do need to start seeing sn improvement sokn though and is something that needs to be given top priority by the SRU

How come Wales, Italy and Georgia have managed to maintain standards during COVID? Perhaps our stricter lockdown policy under Scottish administration made things worse?

If these U20s are behind on their conditioning, then that must be largely down to the players and their own self-discipline and self-motivation.
If they have serious aspirations of becoming pro rugby players, then they need to be more determined to progress themselves independently, as well as working hard in any structured set up.
I wonder how much of the poor results happening is down to a lack of professionalism on the individuals part?

Bit of a big leap to make there, bearing in mind the average 18/19 year old not long out of school rugby probably has no idea how to become a top class athlete and needs coaching. This is about S&C, training and coaching.

I have to disagree.
I took myself to a local weight training location 40 years ago as a 16yo. I played Div 6 rugby the year after. That was 4 decades ago!
I have been one of the coaches with my eldest lad's squad from u6 in the NW of England, and some of that now u18 squad have Been doing their own S&C since they were 15, and have organised this themselves.
6 of our squad have gone on to Academy RL contracts, successfully and 1 has gone on to a Premiership academy squad.
These are just kids from our squad who have cracked on with it, and are now into pro set ups. They are 16 and 17, and 4 of them have played in Superleague reserve matches.
I can't help but feel that 18 and 19 year olds in a National set up that are a long way behind on conditioning, maybe haven't been putting enough into it themselves? - it can't all fall to the clubs or national set-up, surely? - or maybe I'm way off the mark?

Are we seriously relying on teenagers to have their own motivation to become top class athletes as a sustainable and sensible plan to produce a competitive under 20s team?

That's my main point here!

Tramptastic wrote:

RDW wrote:

Anglobraveheart wrote:

sensisball wrote:

BigGee wrote:I think unfortunately, a lot of these kids have lost 2 years of their development due to covid.

It is a bit to soon to judge how effective Super 6 will be with helping them develop as that has also bedn day effected by the pandemic.

We do need to start seeing sn improvement sokn though and is something that needs to be given top priority by the SRU

How come Wales, Italy and Georgia have managed to maintain standards during COVID? Perhaps our stricter lockdown policy under Scottish administration made things worse?

If these U20s are behind on their conditioning, then that must be largely down to the players and their own self-discipline and self-motivation.
If they have serious aspirations of becoming pro rugby players, then they need to be more determined to progress themselves independently, as well as working hard in any structured set up.
I wonder how much of the poor results happening is down to a lack of professionalism on the individuals part?

Bit of a big leap to make there, bearing in mind the average 18/19 year old not long out of school rugby probably has no idea how to become a top class athlete and needs coaching. This is about S&C, training and coaching.

Agreed with RDW, It may be different for the privately educated but if any of these lads are state schooled they won't have had any extra help with fitness/condition/weightlifting etc

That doesn't make sense? Why would going to a state school prevent the individual from going to the gym? Under their own initiative and just cracking on with it?

A few tweaks!

Going with the duel OS model, lets see how that works out.

Starting with White, that's good, we need to develop another starting SH.

Hutch still at FB, not so good, but hopefully he might come into IC centre later on in the game.

Rowe to debut from the bench and Christie gets another chance.


Probably a better team than last week but they need to perform!

Are we seriously relying on teenagers to have their own motivation to become top class athletes as a sustainable and sensible plan to produce a competitive under 20s team?
That's my main point here![/quote]

I'm seriously pointing out that there should be no reason why prospective 18 and 19 yo pro players can't motivate themselves to get conditioned at the gym, and then thecredt should vote from the coaching set up, with guidance for gym work.
I'm pretty sure that the other nations players are self motivating themselves?

There's a big difference between someone going to the gym and putting a lot of effort in to get into 'good' shape, and elite sports person shape. If you compare a really keen 18 year old who has basically been driving it himself for 2 years Vs a player who has been in an academy for 2 years, with full access to nutritionists, S&C coaches, sports scientists, physios etc etc they just won't be comparable.

Motivation and determination to do the best you can will get you so far - you need well funded, well run academies to be producing the top level athletes that our guys are having to compete against.

Scotland aren't either of the examples mentioned - we do have academies, we do have full-time aports professionals assigned to them and we are picking players up from an earlier age. We just need a lot more of it, and that means funding. We also need a lot more players! I don't know how many are currently in our academies but I bet it's significantly fewer than any other 6N team.

I also don't suspect our teenagers are any more or less determined than teenagers from other nations.

Great to see Rowe in the 23. He's had a cracking season and has come through the hard way.

RDW wrote:There's a big difference between someone going to the gym and putting a lot of effort in to get into 'good' shape, and elite sports person shape. If you compare a really keen 18 year old who has basically been driving it himself for 2 years Vs a player who has been in an academy for 2 years, with full access to nutritionists, S&C coaches, sports scientists, physios etc etc they just won't be comparable.

Motivation and determination to do the best you can will get you so far - you need well funded, well run academies to be producing the top level athletes that our guys are having to compete against.

Scotland aren't either of the examples mentioned - we do have academies, we do have full-time aports professionals assigned to them and we are picking players up from an earlier age. We just need a lot more of it, and that means funding. We also need a lot more players! I don't know how many are currently in our academies but I bet it's significantly fewer than any other 6N team.

I also don't suspect our teenagers are any more or less determined than teenagers from other nations.

I don't think our opinions are a long way apart RDW, I just feel that there needs to be more from the individuals instead of blaming the system or private schools.
I went to a state school from a v small town and small RU club, that produced international players and a British Lion.
My sons now go through state education and both have access to community RL and RU clubs.
I just think that there needs to be more input to the clubs to support the valiant few who already work really hard.
And yes, I think we need more players, and bigger squads.

Didn't manage to see the first match but can anyone say how Javan went when he came on?

Sooooooooo

Simple question. With our current woes and yer another lack of players coming through (we’re short again on tightheads, 10s, 8s) will Scotland win the 6ns ever again?

I genuinely feel that unless there is serious change to our set ups and processes, we’re Donald Ducked

Oakdene wrote:Didn't manage to see the first match but can anyone say how Javan went when he came on?

He did ok, held up the scrum and had a few rumbles with the ball.

Hard to stand out in a poor Scottish performance and hopefully we'll see a bit more of him this week.

tigertattie wrote:Sooooooooo

Simple question. With our current woes and yer another lack of players coming through (we’re short again on tightheads, 10s, 8s) will Scotland win the 6ns ever again?

I genuinely feel that unless there is serious change to our set ups and processes, we’re Donald Ducked

We are getting way ahead of ourselves with that question Tattie.

We have not looked remotely like winning the 6N since the advent of professionalism, so why are we looking at that as a goal at the moment.

I would like to see us start with some more realistic goals, such as playing consistently, beating sides we should beat, learning how to close out games, dealing with re-starts which we seem to have forgotten how to do again.

With our relative resources it is not that surprising we are struggling in the 6N against some of the giants of the game, especially in a tournament which eats up your resources. As a team, we have proved that we can just about beat anyone on our day, but we have never been able to do that consistently enough to win a tournament. Hard to see that changing

That’s my point mr Gee.

Our current crop with Toonie at the helm was labelled “our golden generation” and even before covid our under 20s were falling behind.

Our so called golden generation isn’t winning anything and we don’t look like we’re anywhere near being able to restock the quality in years to come.

Perhaps the question of will we win ever again could be changed to “will we win ever again with our current domestic setup”

The answer to the amended question is, sadly, no

With our current framework, other than temping your shoes and duhans from other nations, we’re not producing the calibre of rugby player to complete at the top table. We’re only a small country so perhaps it is too much to ask but it does sadly mean that in the world of professional rugby, I don’t see Scotland being a threat to any championship ever again.

Remember, Dodson and co went about with a mantra of “Scotland will win the World Cup in 2019”. Well, that never happened but that was the target. So asking if we’ll ever win the 6ns again when the World Cup was the board’s “target” is surely a valid question???

I think Dodson's target is to maximise his pension before he sails off into the sunset in 2025.
Any other targets are unimportant.

Disappointed but unsurprised that Toonie has taken another opportunity to not select the best set of centres currently available to him. I really hope this is the kick up the behind that Jonny Gray needs, because on form he really doesn’t deserve a place in the side right now and we could really do with that changing.

Excited for this back row, but they’re facing a tough challenge this weekend, that’s for sure

Anglobraveheart wrote:

RDW wrote:There's a big difference between someone going to the gym and putting a lot of effort in to get into 'good' shape, and elite sports person shape. If you compare a really keen 18 year old who has basically been driving it himself for 2 years Vs a player who has been in an academy for 2 years, with full access to nutritionists, S&C coaches, sports scientists, physios etc etc they just won't be comparable.

Motivation and determination to do the best you can will get you so far - you need well funded, well run academies to be producing the top level athletes that our guys are having to compete against.

Scotland aren't either of the examples mentioned - we do have academies, we do have full-time aports professionals assigned to them and we are picking players up from an earlier age. We just need a lot more of it, and that means funding. We also need a lot more players! I don't know how many are currently in our academies but I bet it's significantly fewer than any other 6N team.

I also don't suspect our teenagers are any more or less determined than teenagers from other nations.

I don't think our opinions are a long way apart RDW, I just feel that there needs to be more from the individuals instead of blaming the system or private schools.
I went to a state school from a v small town and small RU club, that produced international players and a British Lion.
My sons now go through state education and both have access to community RL and RU clubs.
I just think that there needs to be more input to the clubs to support the valiant few who already work really hard.
And yes, I think we need more players, and bigger squads.

Yeah fair enough mate I don't know why I've been so hot on this topic!

I went to a state school too and was lucky it has a long and proud rugby history. We've also produced Scotland internationals (including as recent asduring the Andy Robinson era so not sure that counts for much...) I know most state schools in parts of the country have never heard of rugby never mind play it. Even in my case it relied on teachers coaching in their spare time with no support or recognition from above. Sadly a few years after I left those teachers had enough and packed it in and rugby died for several years, before the local club took up the coaching.

Given how my school went - one with a proud rugby heritage - it's no surprise state schools struggle to add much depth to our playing resources!

Given how my school went - one with a proud rugby heritage - it's no surprise state schools struggle to add much depth to our playing resources![/quote]

My hometown club had 4 senior teams and a colts team up to 1987 when I left. They druggie to get 2 sides out now.

Saying that though my club in the NW now has 2 very strong sides filling nicely off of the mini and junior set-up. (We also had 4 senior teams in the mid nineties) but we have IRO 300 m and js with approx 50 coach volunteers.
It couldn't be done without the parent coaches.
To succeed you need the willing helpers, and willing players.
Junior anglo is a decent prospect. He grafts though, and has a pro rugby career as his initial career ambition. He is 13. His peer group are excellent.

Btw Anglo your quoting skills rivals Jimbo's

BigGee wrote:

Oakdene wrote:Didn't manage to see the first match but can anyone say how Javan went when he came on?

He did ok, held up the scrum and had a few rumbles with the ball.

Hard to stand out in a poor Scottish performance and hopefully we'll see a bit more of him this week.

Thanks! Will hopefully be able to watch this weekends match!

A few folk I know are wishing Pivac picked him before he got capped by you guys.

RDW wrote:Btw Anglo your quoting skills rivals Jimbo's

I'll accept that as my birthday greeting from you Flounder.

The pack for tomorrow looks pretty much like a first choice selection. Maybe Mbawza at 6 but otherwise pretty strong. If the backs can't play behind them Toonie should be looking elsewhere. Except for 10 obviously since Blarehorn is untouchable.

jimbopip wrote:

RDW wrote:Btw Anglo your quoting skills rivals Jimbo's

I'll accept that as my birthday greeting from you Flounder.

The pack for tomorrow looks pretty much like a first choice selection. Maybe Mbawza at 6 but otherwise pretty strong. If the backs can't play behind them Toonie should be looking elsewhere. Except for 10 obviously since Blarehorn is untouchable.

Happy birthday Jimbo! Has the queen written yet?

https://www.606v2.com/t70754-scotland-summer-tests-against-argentina#4046606


I have started a new thread now to avoid the previous one becoming defaulted during the game tomorrow,