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Premiership Round 10

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Cumbrian
Exiledinborders
Margin_Walker
WELL-PAST-IT
yappysnap
doctor_grey
No 7&1/2
Heaf
king_carlos
GeordieFalcon
formerly known as Sam
lostinwales
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Post by lostinwales Thu 02 Dec 2021, 11:02 am

First topic message reminder :

December already? What happened to 2021?

Friday 3rd 19:45
Gloucester v Bristol

Saturday 4th all 15:00
Exeter Chiefs v Saracens
London Irish v Newcastle Falcons
Northampton Saints v Bath
Worcester Warriors v Wasps

Sunday 5th 15:00
Leicester Tigers v Harlequins

Some good matchups this weekend.

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Post by Heaf Sat 04 Dec 2021, 4:41 pm

Heaf wrote:GF too soon to worry - don't forget LI like to make it interesting.  They either go way behind from the start and then catch up or go way ahead and give up the lead to make us all sweat.  Today it could be option 2.

OK maybe LI have finally come up with option 3 ...

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 04 Dec 2021, 4:44 pm

Itoje is some bloody player...

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 04 Dec 2021, 4:50 pm

Cumbrian wrote:Christ, Falcons being properly tuned.  Sad

I had a bad feeling about today's game

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 04 Dec 2021, 5:01 pm

Cumbrian wrote:Hill absolutely blew that on the Sarries line, Simmonds was walking in.

They could have gone wide way earlier and worked anyone of a number of overlaps but the attack seemed to solely revolve around one out runners. Pretty blinkered attack.

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Post by Heaf Sat 04 Dec 2021, 5:02 pm

Low quality match all round - including the officials ... and Sarries really need to learn to keep their traps shut.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 04 Dec 2021, 5:13 pm

Another 6 try thrashing for Bath at The Gardens this afternoon. They are becoming the whipping boys of the Prem.
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Post by lostinwales Sat 04 Dec 2021, 6:48 pm

Just saw the clip of Billy. Looks like he could do with some reffing lessons.

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Post by yappysnap Sat 04 Dec 2021, 7:43 pm

I wish the commentators would focus less on the ref and more on the game. When you listen to the SH commentators down this way they're a lot more positive, they enthuse about the players and the plays and only mention the ref in passing. There isn't this micro analysis that the NH is obsessed with of every ref decision.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 04 Dec 2021, 7:59 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Another 6 try thrashing for Bath at The Gardens this afternoon. They are becoming the whipping boys of the Prem.
Got called in to work this morning and only got back in time to see the last try and 15 minutes.  According to the commentator Saints scrum and front row were very good again.  If this trend of the front row throwing their weight around continues to improve, then Saints could potentially move up into the 'challenging for top 4' category. Will grab a pint of Boddington's this evening and sit in front of the tv and watch a replay.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 04 Dec 2021, 8:33 pm

yappysnap wrote:I wish the commentators would focus less on the ref and more on the game. When you listen to the SH commentators down this way they're a lot more positive, they enthuse about the players and the plays and only mention the ref in passing. There isn't this micro analysis that the NH is obsessed with of every ref decision.

Hmm. They get on the refs quite a lot I find, but get a lot wrong. Dallaglio for someone so revered as a captain is awful at the laws. Healey is normally someone who despite his rep as a mouthy tw@ is normally OK. Most of the things they were picking up I think you could argue was right and let's not forget as much as they shout out mistakes they're proved wrong as much as right while having a much better seat.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 04 Dec 2021, 9:03 pm

Mark McCall wrote:"One or two of the players, which I won't name, have already apologised to their team-mates afterwards because they recognise that it's not what we need."

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 04 Dec 2021, 9:27 pm

Some try by Radwan though....Eddie's loss....

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sun 05 Dec 2021, 8:48 am

What's peoples thoughts on Will Goodrick Clark....

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Post by Margin_Walker Sun 05 Dec 2021, 9:05 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:What's peoples thoughts on Will Goodrick Clark....

I think he's great. Much better than Elrington anyway who got the England call up a few weeks ago.

He's been one of the first names on the team sheet for the last year. Keeping out internationals like Dell and Gigena. Strong in the scrum (with anyone other than Hoskins at TH anyway...), hit's like a truck defensively and carries well.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 05 Dec 2021, 3:04 pm

Let off for Leicester there.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 05 Dec 2021, 3:22 pm

Genge not the captain? He pointed to the posts and then Ford kicked for touch. Thought you had to go with your first decision. And then a warning to Harlequins. Odd.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 05 Dec 2021, 3:45 pm

Decent game. Jones doesn't like a pass. That new seatbelt tackle rule completely passed me by too. Not a pen anymore.

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Post by Heaf Sun 05 Dec 2021, 3:50 pm

Yep today was the first time I'd heard that too ...

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Post by Heaf Sun 05 Dec 2021, 4:06 pm

Youngs is having a good game

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 05 Dec 2021, 4:07 pm

Hes not having to pass much which always helps. Keep him kicking and running and he can be good!

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Post by TJ Sun 05 Dec 2021, 4:18 pm

Quins / tigers - what were the two yellow cards for? the phone rang and I missed it! Ta

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 05 Dec 2021, 4:18 pm

Is van Poortvliet injured?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 05 Dec 2021, 4:19 pm

TJ wrote:Quins / tigers - what were the two yellow cards for?  the phone rang and I missed it!  Ta

Slaping down the ball by Smith about 7 metres out at a ruck and a typical Wiese thing when he went in with a pretty solid no arms tackle low.

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Post by TJ Sun 05 Dec 2021, 4:23 pm

ta

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 05 Dec 2021, 4:26 pm

No probs. Bit of a nice finish from Lynagh. He ain't been great but he does score a shed load.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 05 Dec 2021, 4:43 pm

Kelly's been immense defensively.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 05 Dec 2021, 4:46 pm

Ooh. Doesn't get much closer than that.

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Post by Heaf Sun 05 Dec 2021, 4:46 pm

Why didn't Tigers take the kick at goal ...

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Post by bsando Sun 05 Dec 2021, 4:47 pm

Poor line out from Quins at the end there, but they did well to keep Tigers to 2 point margin for a good chunk of that final quarter. Would have been daylight robbery if Quins had ended up winning it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 05 Dec 2021, 4:48 pm

Ford potm? Thought he was very quiet. Couple of decent kicks in the 2nd half to touch and the take on of Lynagh but wouldn't have come into my top 10 I don't think.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 05 Dec 2021, 10:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ford potm? Thought he was very quiet. Couple of decent kicks in the 2nd half to touch and the take on of Lynagh but wouldn't have come into my top 10 I don't think.

Had to be Benny Youngs surely. Most inventive player on the pitch which was probably a surprise to all of us. That performance was a bit of a statement, lots of people questioning how long he's got left but he did the lot. Tigers attack really suffered after he went off.

Sinfield deserves a big clap on the back for the defence which was excellent and the use of kicking to take Green out of the attack was brilliant. The best running fullbacks in the league barely got chance to stretch his legs. Dan Kelly was pretty epic in leading that defence as well when you consider the monster that was stood opposite him.

I have no idea how Tigers didn't get a penalty try for Murley's blatant high tackle. He actually grabs Steward's head to complete the tackle and stop the try. No idea how the TMO stuffed that one up and will only feed the running joke on the Tigers forum that she doesn't like Tigers as she never seems to give us a decision.

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Post by yappysnap Sun 05 Dec 2021, 11:03 pm

Damn it. Bit of a losing run for Quins now. Hopefully we can pick ourselves up and get out of it soon.

Congrats Tigers.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 05 Dec 2021, 11:15 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:I have no idea how Tigers didn't get a penalty try for Murley's blatant high tackle. He actually grabs Steward's head to complete the tackle and stop the try. No idea how the TMO stuffed that one up and will only feed the running joke on the Tigers forum that she doesn't like Tigers as she never seems to give us a decision.

If I'm thinking of the right incident, that wasn't down to the TMO. The referee said he wasn't interested in a high tackle, as he judged it was contact only with the head, not a tackle around the head. Ben Kay in commentary seemed to agree.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 06 Dec 2021, 7:29 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:I have no idea how Tigers didn't get a penalty try for Murley's blatant high tackle. He actually grabs Steward's head to complete the tackle and stop the try. No idea how the TMO stuffed that one up and will only feed the running joke on the Tigers forum that she doesn't like Tigers as she never seems to give us a decision.

If I'm thinking of the right incident, that wasn't down to the TMO. The referee said he wasn't interested in a high tackle, as he judged it was contact only with the head, not a tackle around the head. Ben Kay in commentary seemed to agree.

That was Tempest's conversation with Genge not the TMO after it was on the bug screen and the crowd bayed for blood. Had the TMO raised the question I suspect a proper review would have shown it was a penalty all day. Kay and Healey don't tend to raise too much pro Tigers in these kind of big games because they don't want to sound bias which is understandable given their current jobs Vs previous employment.

It wasn't a bad tackle but you wrap the arm round the head anywhere else on the pitch and it's a penalty. Definitely no more than a penalty there was no force and initial contact was with the body. I felt the decision was somewhat bottled as it was in the act of scoring which isn't unusual we often see contact with the head as a player dives for the line. If the officials don't review it properly we'll start to see players stay down over the line to try and force a review though and we don't want that football mentality coming.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Dec 2021, 8:43 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Ford potm? Thought he was very quiet. Couple of decent kicks in the 2nd half to touch and the take on of Lynagh but wouldn't have come into my top 10 I don't think.

Had to be Benny Youngs surely. Most inventive player on the pitch which was probably a surprise to all of us. That performance was a bit of a statement, lots of people questioning how long he's got left but he did the lot. Tigers attack really suffered after he went off.

Sinfield deserves a big clap on the back for the defence which was excellent and the use of kicking to take Green out of the attack was brilliant. The best running fullbacks in the league barely got chance to stretch his legs. Dan Kelly was pretty epic in leading that defence as well when you consider the monster that was stood opposite him.

I have no idea how Tigers didn't get a penalty try for Murley's blatant high tackle. He actually grabs Steward's head to complete the tackle and stop the try. No idea how the TMO stuffed that one up and will only feed the running joke on the Tigers forum that she doesn't like Tigers as she never seems to give us a decision.


Youngs always runs well. Is have given it to Kelly. It was won on defence and he was epic. Dombrandt and collier would be up there too.

The high tackle no, he's ducking into it and they shouldn't and rarely do penalise that. Ref saw it too. I was surprised about the Jones thing though I hadn't realised as I said in the thread that seatbelt tackles were allowed this year.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Dec 2021, 8:44 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:I have no idea how Tigers didn't get a penalty try for Murley's blatant high tackle. He actually grabs Steward's head to complete the tackle and stop the try. No idea how the TMO stuffed that one up and will only feed the running joke on the Tigers forum that she doesn't like Tigers as she never seems to give us a decision.

If I'm thinking of the right incident, that wasn't down to the TMO. The referee said he wasn't interested in a high tackle, as he judged it was contact only with the head, not a tackle around the head. Ben Kay in commentary seemed to agree.

That was Tempest's conversation with Genge not the TMO after it was on the bug screen and the crowd bayed for blood. Had the TMO raised the question I suspect a proper review would have shown it was a penalty all day. Kay and Healey don't tend to raise too much pro Tigers in these kind of big games because they don't want to sound bias which is understandable given their current jobs Vs previous employment.

It wasn't a bad tackle but you wrap the arm round the head anywhere else on the pitch and it's a penalty. Definitely no more than a penalty there was no force and initial contact was with the body. I felt the decision was somewhat bottled as it was in the act of scoring which isn't unusual we often see contact with the head as a player dives for the line. If the officials don't review it properly we'll start to see players stay down over the line to try and force a review though and we don't want that football mentality coming.

They did review it. Wasn't a pen.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 06 Dec 2021, 9:12 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:I have no idea how Tigers didn't get a penalty try for Murley's blatant high tackle. He actually grabs Steward's head to complete the tackle and stop the try. No idea how the TMO stuffed that one up and will only feed the running joke on the Tigers forum that she doesn't like Tigers as she never seems to give us a decision.

If I'm thinking of the right incident, that wasn't down to the TMO. The referee said he wasn't interested in a high tackle, as he judged it was contact only with the head, not a tackle around the head. Ben Kay in commentary seemed to agree.

That was Tempest's conversation with Genge not the TMO after it was on the bug screen and the crowd bayed for blood. Had the TMO raised the question I suspect a proper review would have shown it was a penalty all day. Kay and Healey don't tend to raise too much pro Tigers in these kind of big games because they don't want to sound bias which is understandable given their current jobs Vs previous employment.

It wasn't a bad tackle but you wrap the arm round the head anywhere else on the pitch and it's a penalty. Definitely no more than a penalty there was no force and initial contact was with the body. I felt the decision was somewhat bottled as it was in the act of scoring which isn't unusual we often see contact with the head as a player dives for the line. If the officials don't review it properly we'll start to see players stay down over the line to try and force a review though and we don't want that football mentality coming.

They did review it. Wasn't a pen.

They didn't they reviewed the grounding and when questioned Tempest said he didn't want to review because it was just an arm on a head. Any head contact in a tackle is now a penalty. As I said, anywhere else on the pitch it's a penalty and no one questions it. In the act of trying to score ref and TMO don't want to make a big call. It's why they don't review the potential seatbelt by Potter later on when Quins are held up though that one makes no contact with the head it was just on the shoulder. 

It's also why I suspect Tempest cards Weise to level up the sides at 14 all for a tackle that's just a penalty every other week and after the TMO told him just a penalty. Didn't want to make a call that decided the match. Got to say I thought the officiating team was a strange call considering how big a game it was, top of the table Vs reigning champions. I'd have thought Barnes or Pearce would have got it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 06 Dec 2021, 10:38 am

In terms of Tempest looking at it on screen during the review. Thats one of the instances which is allowed. The seatbelt as Kay explained is no longer against the laws. Last year that would have been a pen try, properly butchered by Jones anyway.

Wiese, well, a touch harsh for me and perhaps his rep is now preceding him. Pearce was getting shed loads of moans too!

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 06 Dec 2021, 12:53 pm

Yeah it's tough to feel too sorry for Weise when his rep gets him carded because he earned it. He did make a couple of excellent tackles on Murley though to make up for it. I was impressed Murley got up so quick after the catch where he got his ribs smashed. Weise couldn't have timed that better. Credit to Murley he is tough.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 06 Dec 2021, 1:09 pm

Wiese is a terrific number 8 but does have some flaws in his game (mostly silly pens) that at current have made him look slightly out of place at international level. His carry has been a revelation for Tigers and exactly what we've missed but that wrecking ball style hasn't yet had the same impact against international defences. Currently he's an excellent club player and an average international one. To bridge that gap his discipline needs to improve and he probably needs to develop his carrying game to offer more of a threat through off loading or shifting the attack to other players just before contact. Currently it's head down and run straight. That aggression has been brutal at times for club defences but not so scary at the next level.

I just watched the game this morning. A good win for Tigers but one that could have been a more convincing margin.

I thought Green had a really good game for Tigers after replacing Snyman in the lineup late on.

Not subbing Montoya when he looked increasingly knackered seemed odd given Dolly's form this season. I'd question few things Borthwick is doing at the minute given the results but with Tigers  strong forward reserves he does sometimes make subs in the pack quite late on I feel.

Hanro going off early in his first game back is a worry. Hopefully not a recurrence of that shoulder injury. He's absolutely vital to this side. A remarkably consistent player across all facets of the game.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 06 Dec 2021, 3:46 pm

I presume he kept Montoya on as our scrum wasn't on top and Dolly isn't great at scrum time. I would have liked to see Heyes come on a bit earlier to give us some fresh legs though.

Green and Wells both played well and I imagine the plan was to introduce Chessum into the row so one played longer than intended. The shoulder injury to Liebenburg is a concern, luckily we can rotate Martin or Brink in to cover during the European games and concentrate on getting Hanro back for the domestic resumption.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 06 Dec 2021, 7:24 pm

I have just watched the Saints vs Bath game in full, Bath are seriously struggling, the Saints backline can run a lot of teams ragged, but give them so much quick ball and you are committing suicide. If it wasn't for a couple of handling errors, it would have been close to 60-19.

The only player that would even get close to a bench spot for Saints on Saturdays for is De Glanville, he did look good.

Someone needs to be doing tests on Saints pack, from just okay at scrum time they have become destroyers and are all good with ball in hand. Saturday we had Moon doing the Lawes thing with the soft delayed pass, Wilkins bursting through for 30-40m runs, Augustus playing as if he was steamroller, Ludlam, 19 tackles plus I don't know how many carries, he was just always there. Ribbans playing basket ball to put Skosan into space for Freemans try. Just so many highlights and that was just the pack.

Things that were not so clever, Biggar trying to blast his way through, not around three forwards, got a penalty, could just as easily got him in hospital. Fish, it says it all, how does he even get benched.

Mitchell, another assist in a pretty good game, Skosan, give him a sniff and it is 5 points. Dingwall and Hutchinson are turning out to be one hell of a pairing, carving holes everywhere.

I did not know how big Freeman is, 6'2" and over 16 stone, pretty quick for that size, even got used as a flanker for a couple of scrums.

Have we flattered to deceive, next week will tell us, Racing 92 and then ULSTER.


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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 07 Dec 2021, 6:09 am

On the Times rugby podcast, Mark Evans suggested Luke Pearce had the Sale match in mind when he marched Saracens back for backchat. There were a lot of verbals in that game (though Nick Tomkins apparently denies saying what McGuigan told the disiplinary hearing). Evans thinks the officials may have decided to be more proactive at cutting general disrespect off at source.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 07 Dec 2021, 7:10 am

Rugby Fan wrote:On the Times rugby podcast, Mark Evans suggested Luke Pearce had the Sale match in mind when he marched Saracens back for backchat. There were a lot of verbals in that game (though Nick Tomkins apparently denies saying what McGuigan told the disiplinary hearing). Evans thinks the officials may have decided to be more proactive at cutting general disrespect off at source.

Good. There's a lot of verbals in the game at the minute, refs are keen to stop any handbags so wind up merchants are on the rise knowing they won't have to back it up. It would be good to see a little more done to stop post whistle shenanigans.

Pearce was spot on in the Sarries game though, you can't moan at a ref post decision get marched back 10 and then keep going. Good strong refereeing. I'd have liked to see him either go to his pocket or issue a final team warning after marching Sarries back another back chat offence not long after the Billy one though.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 07 Dec 2021, 8:10 am

I'd throw in I really don't like this co captains thing thats sneaking in more and more. Just seems another person to legitimately badger the ref so I agree march them back. The fact it was Goode who was one of the Saracens players giving the ref lip just reinforces that for me.

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Post by Ozzy3213 Tue 07 Dec 2021, 12:07 pm

Saracens have form for it. In the game against London Irish it was Mako backchatting the ref who marched a penalty closer to the posts twice. You also had a couple of years ago Wray who was captain arguing with the ref so much that the ref refused to speak to him and made somebody else captain. I hope that refs do clamp down on the backchat, it's not a good look for the game.
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Post by doctor_grey Tue 07 Dec 2021, 5:52 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I have just watched the Saints vs Bath game in full, Bath are seriously struggling, the Saints backline can run a lot of teams ragged, but give them so much quick ball and you are committing suicide. If it wasn't for a couple of handling errors, it would have been close to 60-19.

The only player that would even get close to a bench spot for Saints on Saturdays for is De Glanville, he did look good.

Someone needs to be doing tests on Saints pack, from just okay at scrum time they have become destroyers and are all good with ball in hand. Saturday we had Moon doing the Lawes thing with the soft delayed pass, Wilkins bursting through for 30-40m runs, Augustus playing as if he was steamroller, Ludlam, 19 tackles plus I don't know how many carries, he was just always there. Ribbans playing basket ball to put Skosan into space for Freemans try. Just so many highlights and that was just the pack.

Things that were not so clever, Biggar trying to blast his way through, not around three forwards, got a penalty, could just as easily got him in hospital. Fish, it says it all, how does he even get benched.

Mitchell, another assist in a pretty good game, Skosan, give him a sniff and it is 5 points. Dingwall and Hutchinson are turning out to be one hell of a pairing, carving holes everywhere.

I did not know how big Freeman is, 6'2" and over 16 stone, pretty quick for that size, even got used as a flanker for a couple of scrums.

Have we flattered to deceive, next week will tell us, Racing 92 and then ULSTER.
Well, I think we will have the answers to some key questions about Saints after the next two weekends.  
Are Saints actually a good squad playing erratically at times?  Or maybe not so much?
Can the front row keep up their great form (excluding the lineout work which continues to struggle)?
Can the positive contributions of Augustus keep the pack improving?  No question the pack's recent improved play coincides with his getting more game time.  
Can Saints get all the backs even more involved?  Skosan is clearly a winner and and a fantastic addition to the club.  Will he create more options for Freeman, Slieghtholme, Protcor, Furby, and the rest going forwards.
Will Furby get time at 10 or will Biggar stay there and play all 80 until injured again?  
And that back row again:  Lawes, Augustus, Ludlum.  Not many better groups in any squad.  Anywhere.  
If no one noticed, the play between Underhill and Augustus on Saturday was like a real heavyweight fight.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 08 Dec 2021, 10:40 am

"And that back row again: Lawes, Augustus, Ludlum. Not many better groups in any squad"

Add to that, Harrison, Wood, Nansen (121kg), Willemsen (128kg), Wilkins (114kg), as well as some good kids and we are blessed with big mobile and skillful backrowers
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Post by doctor_grey Wed 08 Dec 2021, 12:28 pm

Good points. I haven’t heard much about Nansen. Do you know how he is coming along? I heard, but not sure it’s true, that he may have turned out for Bedford once or twice.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 08 Dec 2021, 1:28 pm

Not sure if he has turned out for Bedford, but he played in a least part of the Sharks game, looks like he has come off the bench once as well.
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