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Premiership Round 11

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nathan
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Post by Heaf Sun Dec 26, 2021 3:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well that was stupid by Wiese

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Post by Poorfour Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:47 am

Walker has been a bit of a find, but Jones and Flannery deserve a lot of the credit for integrating him into the team so quickly. Baldwin looked like a big loss for us, but Walker is filling the gap very well. Once he gets in tune with his jumpers, he could be a mainstay of the team for several years Plus we have Musk and Head coming through as long term prospects and Gray as a reliable backup.

I think Quins probably have the best depth of any premiership team in the front row at the moment. There's no real drop off from Louw to Collier (who apparently hasn't given away a scrum penalty in a year and a half) and Kerrod in the setpiece, though we miss his carrying a little. Botta is finally starting to look worth his salary behind Marler, and Baxter looks like he could be better than either when he's fully baked.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:07 am

Poorfour wrote:Walker has been a bit of a find, but Jones and Flannery deserve a lot of the credit for integrating him into the team so quickly. Baldwin looked like a big loss for us, but Walker is filling the gap very well. Once he gets in tune with his jumpers, he could be a mainstay of the team for several years  Plus we have Musk and Head coming through as long term prospects and Gray as a reliable backup.

I think Quins probably have the best depth of any premiership team in the front row at the moment. There's no real drop off from Louw to Collier (who apparently hasn't given away a scrum penalty in a year and a half) and Kerrod in the setpiece, though we miss his carrying a little. Botta is finally starting to look worth his salary behind Marler, and Baxter looks like he could be better than either when he's fully baked.


Young Sam Riley coming through as well.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:26 am

Sounds like it's Tigers being reviewed with the Prem salary cap in relation to historic image rights payments.

"Leicester Tigers are aware of allegations made against the club regarding historic image rights payments.

The club is cooperating with Premiership Rugby, who are looking into the historic matter, and has met with representatives from Premiership Rugby to discuss the claims.

Leicester Tigers will make no further comment while the matter remains ongoing."

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:34 am

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/leicester-tigers-under-investigation-for-possible-salary-cap-breach-s560xpbh5

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Dec 28, 2021 12:12 pm

Makes sense now to see Ford and Genge moved on sharpish then.

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Post by nathan Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Makes sense now to see Ford and Genge moved on sharpish then.

Not really as its a historic matter and the image rights company has already been wound up.

I suspect Ford and Genge moving on is more to do with the reduction in salary cap.


Will be interesting to see how historic this is though, can't read the article unfortunately as its behind a paywall.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:35 pm

From the article.

"Salary cap investigators are permitted to look back five years. Andrea Pinchen, the Leicester chief executive, is understood to have been interviewed by Rogers as part of this inquiry, although the focus of the investigation is believed to be on the years before she was promoted into the role in May 2020."

So nothing to do with current movements.

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Post by nathan Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:21 pm

So from my reading, years before May 2020?

What's the definition of "years"? 2?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:32 pm

They can go back five years apparently.

Oh the shame if we're found guilty during the two seasons we finished 11th.  Sad

Hopefully it's nothing serious, we've finally found some form on the pitch but now seem to be bombarded by bad news off the field.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:53 pm

Hmm.

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Post by Poorfour Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:44 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Hopefully it's nothing serious, we've finally found some form on the pitch but now seem to be bombarded by bad news off the field.

The fact that it relates to an image rights company is probably not good news for Tigers. There are plenty of ways for a team to inadvertently breach the cap, but payments through a separate company implies a deliberate move and also a material amount of cash, because otherwise why bother?

The timing is also interesting. It was wound up in February, which is after last year's regular contract renegotiations, but before this year's - so the loss of that income stream might have had a bearing on Ford and Genge, regardless of what they've said publicly.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:02 pm

40pt deduction imminent......on the plus, you'd still be above Bath.

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Post by nathan Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:21 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:40pt deduction imminent......on the plus, you'd still be above Bath.

Would be surprised if it was to the sum of £2m over the cap like Sarries.

Not sure Tigers could have afforded it.

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Post by Maine man Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:56 pm

Genuine question, if found guilty and points deducted, will Leicester be relegated or is the premiership ringfenced now?

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Post by king_carlos Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:25 pm

The period under investigation is from when Simon Cohen was CEO - before May 2020 - so little would surprise me as I'd trust Cohen as far as I could throw him. If it's proven to be a significant breach and a willful attempt to subvert the cap then Tigers would deserve everything thrown at them.

Genge and Ford have both signed new contracts since the investigated period so I'd be very surprised if this was linked to their departure now.

Image rights are a legitimate source of income for players and most players have public companies setup to manage that income so that part isn't surprising at all. As shown with the Itoje case it is possible to prove when image rights are being used to cheat the system though if it is blatant. In that case Itoje had a company setup to manage his image rights that Wray and another Sarries director bought a 30% stake in for ludicrously about the estimated company value, resulting in Maro getting about an £800k pay bump from memory.

If that's the type of thing Tigers were up to here they will deserve the very large sanction thrown at them.

I'll be very interested in reading when more details come out. Were these payments declared to the salary cap manager at the time? What is the extent of the alleged breach? For what seasons and duration did the breach occur?

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Post by king_carlos Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:35 pm

Maine man wrote:Genuine question, if found guilty and points deducted, will Leicester be relegated or is the premiership ringfenced now?
I believe the sanctions are just points deductions rather than automatic relegation. Sarries initial point deduction for the sanctions from previous seasons wouldn't actually have seen them relegated. When they refused to fully comply with a mid-season investigation of whether they were breaking the cap again in that ongoing season they got another massive points deduction which guaranteed they'd finish last.

I haven't read through the latest regs though to see if Dyson's recommended changes to the sanctions were eventually implemented.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:48 pm

Maine man wrote:Genuine question, if found guilty and points deducted, will Leicester be relegated or is the premiership ringfenced now?

Ringfenced. Tigers are also the best supported club in the country so unsure whether BT Sports would want an end to the ring fencing and relegation.

To be fair Championship rugby would financially cripple Tigers there's no wealthy owner to write blank cheques. A Sarries style fine would also pretty much end the club. Tigers have already had to refinance to get over the Covid period I doubt they'd be able to do it again.

I'm also not sure we'd have been able to send large sums of money out of the club to third parties to fund image rights payments. The club has tended to be a well run business but not a vastly wealthy one. Loans and the issue of shares have been used to fund the Welford Road expansion. The club has temporarily stopped looking for new owners but that's more of a pause, I fear what will happen if we're forced to sell to survive the club could end up in the hands of some investment firm.

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Post by king_carlos Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:52 pm

One of the two directors in this company linked to the Tigers investigation is Anthony Lymn who runs an accountancy firm and refers to himself on the firms website:

"Within the world of Professional Football and Rugby I am “Trusted Advisor” to Players (particularly Non-UK Domiciles) and one of the country’s leading Sports Tax Specialists."

Now, this is purely speculative but during the Sarries investigation there were some rumours that many prominent England players (not just Sarries ones) may have been using these type of companies to avoid paying tax on some of their earnings.

If something like that is the case I'd say two things:

1. I wouldn't be surprised if further whistleblowing from players about this payments leads to other clubs and players image rights dealings being investigated

2. If prominent players with the privilege of gigantic incomes have been avoiding tax then they will fully deserve the s*** storm that might be coming round the bend

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Post by king_carlos Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:53 pm

https://twitter.com/rugbyandthelaw/status/1369213164991176705

That's a very good twitter thread that was posted when HMRC were investigating Prem clubs over image rights payments. Footballers are currently locked in a long battle with HMRC over unpaid taxes linking to image rights as well.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:23 pm

king_carlos wrote:https://twitter.com/rugbyandthelaw/status/1369213164991176705

That's a very good twitter thread that was posted when HMRC were investigating Prem clubs over image rights payments. Footballers are currently locked in a long battle with HMRC over unpaid taxes linking to image rights as well.

HMRC have had running battles with Premier football clubs for years. The British tax system is unnecessarily complicated so there's plenty of opportunity for loopholes and HMRC going after you. Consecutive governments have only made the tax laws more complicated.

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Post by doctor_grey Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:33 pm

If the alleged violations were found to have taken place and only before Saracens were relegated, that is one thing. If the violations were found to have taken place before and after Saracens that is another thing altogether. Either way, if found true, then Tigers would be in some significant trouble.

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Post by Poorfour Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:01 am

I would be deeply surprised if Leicester end up being relegated over this.

Saracens got caught once, lawyered up and brokered a revised cap, got caught again on historical cheating over a long period and penalised and refused to open their books to enable a full audit of the cap and only THEN were relegated.

Tigers have already put their hand up - ahead of Premiership Rugby themselves - and given some details about what is being investigated. The issue seems to be associated with the previous leadership. Even if it’s a serious long term breach, they’re not clamming up, which is what got Saracens relegated.

My guess would be that worst case scenario for them is a fine and points deduction that could scupper their season, but given the current ring fencing and their co-operation it’s unlikely to lead to relegation.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:15 am

Breaching of the salary cap is very low down on my things that I get annoyed about but it's not a good look for Tigers that this is the 2nd time they've been caught "cheating" (I say this in the most loose of terms).

I hope for their sake they come out of this not so bad....will other clubs/fans give them the Saracens treatment too?

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Post by Poorfour Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:50 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Breaching of the salary cap is very low down on my things that I get annoyed about but it's not a good look for Tigers that this is the 2nd time they've been caught "cheating" (I say this in the most loose of terms).

I hope for their sake they come out of this not so bad....will other clubs/fans give them the Saracens treatment too?

Saracens systematically and deliberately cheated the cap for several years, lawyered up to weasel out of punishment, rewrote the rules, and then deliberately and systematically broke the new rules before refusing to come clean. How many trophies did they win in that time? How many other teams missed out as a result?

If Leicester have done something similar, they deserve similar treatment and opprobrium. At the moment they have two big mitigating factors in their favour: 1) they are cooperating with the investigation and 2) for most of the last few years they’ve been pretty poor, so other clubs have not really lost out.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:41 am

There is still some serious underhanded play going on here though if you want to take it that way.

1. It's Leicester's 2nd time being caught.

2. They voted to not open their books (seemingly) knowing fine well they had broke salary cap rules.

3. They happily relegated Saracens whilst knowing they had also broke the cap.

Part of me quite admires Saracens....yes they broke the rules, but they dominated Europe against sides with even higher budgets (Leinster, French sides).

That Tigers broke the cap and were utter dross is more of a crime for me.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:48 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:There is still some serious underhanded play going on here though if you want to take it that way.

1. It's Leicester's 2nd time being caught.

2. They voted to not open their books (seemingly) knowing fine well they had broke salary cap rules.

3. They happily relegated Saracens whilst knowing they had also broke the cap.

Part of me quite admires Saracens....yes they broke the rules, but they dominated Europe against sides with even higher budgets (Leinster, French sides).

That Tigers broke the cap and were utter dross is more of a crime for me.

1. The previous breach was rumoured to be very minor and was due to an academy player breaking into the first team and there small wage putting the club slightly over the cap. Would you have preferred the EQ academy player to not get Prem exposure and to be left to play second team rugby? Note several teams have been caught similarly and to be honest I have no issue with it. This was also in the days before the academy credits as well if I remember rightly.

2. They have opened their books for this investigation. They allowed Sarries to not open their books and take the punishment instead but so did the rest of the clubs in the league.

3. We don't know if Tigers have broken the cap and if they have to what extent. If it's as bad as Sarries then the same punishment should be due. We also have no idea at this point the length of time the arrangement went on for and what advantages there were from it. Sarries deserved what they got, we will deserve what we get (if anything). Everyone knew Sarries were playing silly buggers for years with the cap and robbed teams and players of all sorts of accolades and endorsements as a result.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:57 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:

1. The previous breach was rumoured to be very minor and was due to an academy player breaking into the first team and there small wage putting the club slightly over the cap. Would you have preferred the EQ academy player to not get Prem exposure and to be left to play second team rugby? Note several teams have been caught similarly and to be honest I have no issue with it. This was also in the days before the academy credits as well if I remember rightly.

2. They have opened their books for this investigation. They allowed Sarries to not open their books and take the punishment instead but so did the rest of the clubs in the league.

3. We don't know if Tigers have broken the cap and if they have to what extent. If it's as bad as Sarries then the same punishment should be due. We also have no idea at this point the length of time the arrangement went on for and what advantages there were from it. Sarries deserved what they got, we will deserve what we get (if anything). Everyone knew Sarries were playing silly buggers for years with the cap and robbed teams and players of all sorts of accolades and endorsements as a result.

1. What a nice little rumour about a young EQ player just wanting to play rugby.......like that's what it was! You seriously don't believe that rubbish do you?

2. The other sides were at this stage....not breaching the salary cap, only Tigers were. They happily watched Sarries go down (instead of them I might add) whilst possibly cooking the books.

3. I still want an explanation how you breached the rules and were still so bad! The biggest crime of all!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:05 am

For what it's worth, it would awful if Tigers were to get severely reprimanded for this (relegation/points loss) after seemingly turning a corner on and off the pitch.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:14 am

Ha. The beshocked defence rolled out already. It benefits England, look the other way quick!

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Post by doctor_grey Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:22 pm

Do the crime, do the time.

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Post by jimbopip Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:48 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Do the crime, do the time.

That's day one of your medical degree isn't it/ Whistle

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:46 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:

1. The previous breach was rumoured to be very minor and was due to an academy player breaking into the first team and there small wage putting the club slightly over the cap. Would you have preferred the EQ academy player to not get Prem exposure and to be left to play second team rugby? Note several teams have been caught similarly and to be honest I have no issue with it. This was also in the days before the academy credits as well if I remember rightly.

2. They have opened their books for this investigation. They allowed Sarries to not open their books and take the punishment instead but so did the rest of the clubs in the league.

3. We don't know if Tigers have broken the cap and if they have to what extent. If it's as bad as Sarries then the same punishment should be due. We also have no idea at this point the length of time the arrangement went on for and what advantages there were from it. Sarries deserved what they got, we will deserve what we get (if anything). Everyone knew Sarries were playing silly buggers for years with the cap and robbed teams and players of all sorts of accolades and endorsements as a result.

1. What a nice little rumour about a young EQ player just wanting to play rugby.......like that's what it was! You seriously don't believe that rubbish do you?

2. The other sides were at this stage....not breaching the salary cap, only Tigers were. They happily watched Sarries go down (instead of them I might add) whilst possibly cooking the books.

3. I still want an explanation how you breached the rules and were still so bad! The biggest crime of all!

1. The first fine Tigers allegedly picked up a fine was more than a decade ago and rumour was that it was due to Manu's acceleration into the first team. So yes EQ player bursting through earlier than expected. Other clubs have been rumoured to have been in similar positions previously (rumours were Wasps and Quins).

2. You are assuming that a) Tigers have exceeded the cap because there's an investigation and that b) no one else is under investigation either remember that Tigers have addressed the rumours and that had someone not sold the story to the Times we wouldn't know it was happening. 

3. Most definitely. The former CEO might want to avoid WR for a long time if he's found to have set this up whilst over seeing a period of onfield incompetence. Will depend on what particular season(s) it covers I suppose.

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Post by Unclear Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:27 pm

We support a game where it is generally accepted that the rules are there to be stretched, particularly at the breakdown.  Are we really surprised that this has rubbed off on the financial types?  At least the players, and it appears the Tigers, usually accept there may be consequences.

Let none of us be too self righteous, the only reason the Irish teams don't get involved in this sort of malarkey is that there don't seem to be any rules on financing to break Smile

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:31 pm

Well yes if there's no rule to break its all good. Didn't accept the point re breaking the laws.on the pitch to on field when Saracens cheated though and doubt o will hear. Gives some more drama for the coming weeks though! Should we be postponing it in case it puts the fans off the 6ns? Seemed to be a similar excuse once upon a time!

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Post by doctor_grey Wed Dec 29, 2021 7:07 pm

jimbopip wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Do the crime, do the time.

That's day one of your medical degree isn't it/ Whistle
That's what it says on the top of my marriage certificate.

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Post by king_carlos Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:54 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:1. It's Leicester's 2nd time being caught.

2. They voted to not open their books (seemingly) knowing fine well they had broke salary cap rules.

3. They happily relegated Saracens whilst knowing they had also broke the cap.
Whilst we don't know for sure the first time was due to academy cap overspend as rumoured but we do know that Tigers overspend was small as they weren't fined.

My understanding at the time (around 2015) was that the salary cap manager finally did their job of investigating the clubs (god forbid) which found that Sarries and Bath had ludicrous overspends of the senior ceiling whilst several other clubs (Tigers being one) had much smaller overspends around academy cap and injury dispensation cap. The clubs voted to sweep it under the carpet, with Bath and Sarries taking big fines, then raise the cap to allow the Prem clubs to compete more in Europe.

I hated sweeping it under the carpet at the time and still do hate that decision. It was inevitably going to lead to clubs taking further liberties. I'm guessing this is the voting not to open their books you mention?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:16 am

The thing is KC, we don't really know. Maybe you (as a Tigers fan) have been fed this info about Tigers just breaking the cap and the others fully exploiting it. The story about a poor young academy prospect just wanting to make his way in the world is quite a nice one, but highly unlikely.

From an outsiders perspective (well from the 3 bad boys anyway), I only ever heard that all 3 clubs were really taking the michael by quite a excessive amount and a line in the sand was drawn.

And to move it on to this incident that we know nothing of yet really.....imagine if Tigers had broke the rules in 2019, the year we got relegated and they finished 2nd bottom....starts to get quite real then.

All hypothetical at this stage I guess though, I'm sure it will all come out in about 8-10months after the report.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:35 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The thing is KC, we don't really know. Maybe you (as a Tigers fan) have been fed this info about Tigers just breaking the cap and the others fully exploiting it. The story about a poor young academy prospect just wanting to make his way in the world is quite a nice one, but highly unlikely.

From an outsiders perspective (well from the 3 bad boys anyway), I only ever heard that all 3 clubs were really taking the michael by quite a excessive amount and a line in the sand was drawn.

And to move it on to this incident that we know nothing of yet really.....imagine if Tigers had broke the rules in 2019, the year we got relegated and they finished 2nd bottom....starts to get quite real then.

All hypothetical at this stage I guess though, I'm sure it will all come out in about 8-10months after the report.

Two things, firstly I'm not sure where we'd be getting the money to excessively break the cap and if that has been money funnelled away from other areas of the club then that brings up an entirely different matter. For starters what have the club's auditors actually been doing.

Secondly there's no poor young academy prospect sob story. It's I imagine what happens in a lot of clubs where overspends are rumoured to take place. Academy player emerges ahead of expectation, probably gets a chance to injury to senior player (injury dispensations only come into play for external recruitment). Academy player plays so well becomes fixture of first team and his academy salary which wouldn't normally come under the cap does so because he's played a certain number of senior games. Those type of breaches I have no issue with as long as they aren't excessive (academy player gets handed whopping contract mid year or there's half a dozen academy players in same year without a massive injury crisis).

If Tigers are found to have broken the cap in a serious way we'll get the book thrown at us and rightly so. I have no issue whatsoever with us getting a disciplinary kicking if we deserve it. 

Anyone else note Sanderson's comments to the Beeb about how the investigation seems a bit pointless since all this occurred under a different management structure? Part of me thinks that he's supporting his mate Borthwick and the other part of me wonders it Tigers are the only club being looked at.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu Dec 30, 2021 9:44 am

Yea, the Sanderson comment was very strange.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:04 am

Does it all suggest the salary cap is set too low? Certainly for teams legitimately trying to compete on several fronts...Prem and Europe?

Or for those with multiple England players

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Post by Heaf Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:03 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Yea, the Sanderson comment was very strange.

Meanwhile Sale seem to be acquiring a lot of potentially expensive players Whistle

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Post by king_carlos Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:10 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The thing is KC, we don't really know. Maybe you (as a Tigers fan) have been fed this info about Tigers just breaking the cap and the others fully exploiting it. The story about a poor young academy prospect just wanting to make his way in the world is quite a nice one, but highly unlikely.

From an outsiders perspective (well from the 3 bad boys anyway), I only ever heard that all 3 clubs were really taking the michael by quite a excessive amount and a line in the sand was drawn.

And to move it on to this incident that we know nothing of yet really.....imagine if Tigers had broke the rules in 2019, the year we got relegated and they finished 2nd bottom....starts to get quite real then.

All hypothetical at this stage I guess though, I'm sure it will all come out in about 8-10months after the report.
We don't know for certain who the second club breaking the cap after Sarries was in 2015 but from Myners report but we know for certain it was two clubs don't we? I've never seen a report anywhere suggesting there were three clubs with big overspends in 2015? Not wanting to be confrontational there I'd just be interested to see any report of a third big overspend if you've got it?

Saracens were named as one club as they refused to comply with the audit and tried to argue the cap was unlawful under competition law. The other has never been named in any official report but has been named consistently by major news outlets as Bath. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't Bath given that if it wasn't them they have presumably taken the issue to court by now.

Outside of Sarries and Bath the other clubs sanctioned around then were Quins and Wasps who received relatively small fines for "overrun tax" from minor overspends in 2016.

In Myners report Leicester are mentioned three times. Once when discussing that the competition that was run before the Premiership went professional was won exclusively by three clubs - Bath, Wasps and Tigers. Once in a table demonstrating most the clubs are losing money. Once when listing clubs that have been successful since professionalism.

There's never any mention of a third club with a big overspend or Tigers having an overrun tax.

Is there actually anything anywhere that points to there being "3 bad boys"?

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Post by king_carlos Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:20 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Does it all suggest the salary cap is set too low? Certainly for teams legitimately trying to compete on several fronts...Prem and Europe?

Or for those with multiple England players
The primary purpose of the cap isn't to make teams competitive in Europe though. It's to prevent wage inflation leading to clubs bankrupting themselves and collapsing as we saw with Richmond and London Welsh.

For a sport as early in its professionalism as rugby union I think it's a necessary measure for the longevity of the league and to keep a relatively level playing field in the Premiership for it to remain as interesting a competition as possible.

Clubs such as Sarries and Chiefs will point to how difficult it is to keep a winning team together as once players improve massively in your setup their value increases. That's kind of the point with the cap leveling the playing field though!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:50 pm

Apologies KC, I meant two clubs....Saracens and Leicester.

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Post by king_carlos Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:15 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Apologies KC, I meant two clubs....Saracens and Leicester.
Ah fair enough. As said the second club was never formally named but I've never seen suggestions anywhere it was Tigers? I'd be very surprised if it wasn't Bath given how widely they've been named by major media sources. How that wouldn't have resulted in a court case if Bath were innocent I really find difficult to see. Not impossible but it does seem unlikely to me.

This is why I hate the secrecy with which the PRL operates. It just invites speculation and rumour.

As you mentioned in your previous post we wont know for sure until a report is released down the line. If a club were to have systemically cheated the cap whilst it was at its highest ever senior ceiling, with two marquee players and being abysmal at rugby whilst doing it Simon Cohen would be pretty high up my list of candidates to organise it frankly.

WIM isn't solely linked to Tigers. It also handled image rights for the likes of Ole Gunnar Solskjaer for instance. So they aren't solely a vehicle for paying Tigers players as the Maro case was with Sarries for instance.

It might be a case that WIM came to a settlement agreement with HMRC (lots of ongoing battles over taxation of image rights earnings) where an agreement to pay additional tax on historic payments was agreed. That new gross and employers NIC would then be liable to be in cap. This could lead to an overspend and potentially a significant one. Even if that's the case though we'd need to know if Tigers reported it to the SCM at the time, did they willfully bury it, how many seasons did it cover, what was the size of a potential overspend?

If it's as cut and dry a case as Maro pocketing £800k due to two Sarries directors paying ludicrously over the odds for 30% of the company managing his image rights then Tigers will deserve everything thrown at them.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:27 pm

king_carlos wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Does it all suggest the salary cap is set too low? Certainly for teams legitimately trying to compete on several fronts...Prem and Europe?

Or for those with multiple England players
The primary purpose of the cap isn't to make teams competitive in Europe though. It's to prevent wage inflation leading to clubs bankrupting themselves and collapsing as we saw with Richmond and London Welsh.

For a sport as early in its professionalism as rugby union I think it's a necessary measure for the longevity of the league and to keep a relatively level playing field in the Premiership for it to remain as interesting a competition as possible.

Clubs such as Sarries and Chiefs will point to how difficult it is to keep a winning team together as once players improve massively in your setup their value increases. That's kind of the point with the cap leveling the playing field though!

Yes im aware what the cap is for. ...but it's clearly an issue for clubs looking to progress in various areas. With this in mind, clubs will always look to gain an advantage in alteria ways.

Would they be better just increasing the cap so skullduggery is hopefully reduced.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:55 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Does it all suggest the salary cap is set too low? Certainly for teams legitimately trying to compete on several fronts...Prem and Europe?

Or for those with multiple England players
The primary purpose of the cap isn't to make teams competitive in Europe though. It's to prevent wage inflation leading to clubs bankrupting themselves and collapsing as we saw with Richmond and London Welsh.

For a sport as early in its professionalism as rugby union I think it's a necessary measure for the longevity of the league and to keep a relatively level playing field in the Premiership for it to remain as interesting a competition as possible.

Clubs such as Sarries and Chiefs will point to how difficult it is to keep a winning team together as once players improve massively in your setup their value increases. That's kind of the point with the cap leveling the playing field though!

Yes im aware what the cap is for. ...but it's clearly an issue for clubs looking to progress in various areas. With this in mind, clubs will always look to gain an advantage in alteria ways.

Would they be better just increasing the cap so skullduggery is hopefully reduced.  
I don't think the cap is the ultimate issue here. For me, it's the almost blanket lack of transparency. If the books are open, financial shenanigans are much harder to pull off.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:25 pm

The cap was increased GF and 2 marquee players.....teams still tried it on.

My amazing idea would be to have a cap. If you want to sign a player for say 400k that takes you over....you then have to give the lowest spender that same amount to spend on the squad.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:17 pm

I think you have to go with an American style cap system where clubs are entirely transparent on spending and where they are in relation to the cap. Players wouldn't like it because their contract value would be in the public domain but let's face it most of the time it is anyway.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:26 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think you have to go with an American style cap system where clubs are entirely transparent on spending and where they are in relation to the cap. Players wouldn't like it because their contract value would be in the public domain but let's face it most of the time it is anyway.
This is how easy it is to see most salary information and where teams stand relative to the cap. Just click on a team or position. So when the eoy financial audits are performed, it is much easier to ensure the books are managed properly.

https://www.spotrac.com/

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