F1 2022 season - Michael Masi sacked

First topic message reminder :

Otmar Szafnauer has left Aston Martin, widely expected, after Martin Whitmarsh joined the team.

GSC wrote:I'm not opposed to sprints but I'd like to see them have less of an impact on the actual main event. Sainz and Perez bailed out of poor quali results. Meanwhile get wiped out and you're starting at the back

I think that is the main point of sprint races - to introduce another layer of jeopardy and try to mix up the grid for the main event. Probably meant to be a compromise between maintaining the status quo and having reverse grids from qualifying.

Newer / younger fans probably like them because of this (and because they're shorter). With DRS and the new car designs being out of place for the main race should be less of a penalty than it used to be (in theory).

All that said, I'm still not a fan of them and probably never will be (just too old school)!

GSC wrote:I'm not sure George is doing much more than Lewis honestly. He just has the rub of the green in a few key moments mostly. Could've very easily ended up in the same drs train as Lewis if he didn't make a massive jump off the line. Bit reminiscent of Vettel in 2014 when he was given a dog of a car after years of dominance, while his younger teammate was getting good results under no real pressure

The start is so crucial when you're in the midfield. If you can make up a few places like George did and not get bogged down behind slower cars, you can use more of your car's performance, don't put as much wear on your tyres...everything just moves more in your favour.

He didn't get stuck in a train like Lewis did and was able to pick up another couple of places without the cars in front of him also having DRS. In fact his only issue was not being able to get his front wing adjusted when he pitted for slicks, which gave him understeer and nearly allowed Bottas to get him near the end.

Overall thought it was a pretty dull race. Lively start in the wet for sure, but as the track dried out it turned into quite a procession...especially as that idiot of a race director took about 20 laps too long to enable DRS. Leclerc made things interesting in his quest for 2nd place, but after he went off, that was that.

A badly-needed result for Red Bull after their troubles in previous races. Pretty routine win for Max. Perez had to work a bit harder for his 2nd place, but was able to relax after Charles' mistake.

Norris picking up another podium by default, but doing the business by being in position to benefit from others' mistakes. A bit like George and Lewis at Mercedes, Lando seems to get much better performances out of the McLaren than Ricciardo, who hasn't been the same driver since he left Red Bull.

Happy to see Bottas enjoying his new lease of life at Alfa - 5th place a very tidy result. He must be quite glad Mercedes decided to dispense with his services.

K-Mag in the points again for Haas, as were both Aston Martins. Even Spinoda - a rare case of him out-performing Gasly. Definitely some strange results this time around.




Back to Mercedes, I think there has to come a time (sooner rather than later) where they admit defeat with their "no-pod" design and revert to their more conventional sidepod design. They still have no idea why the porpoising is so much worse than in other cars, which leads me to believe they won't solve the problem (if ever) until deep into the season, by which time they could be well down the standings.

If nothing else they should at least be thinking of their drivers' spines. Russell commented after the race how rough the ride is on their bodies. A full season of that could give them lasting health issues.

The impression I had was the main reason for the sprint races was so that the track could make more money on the Fridays and Saturdays.  It costs a fortune for a track to host an F1 event and often they have to get state support to cover it.

With regard George Russell and Lewis Hamilton it just seems that Russell is able to get his car into a slightly better set-up than his team-mate.  It seems that Russell and Hamilton are varying their set-ups so that each session and each race the team is able to get more useful data from which they hopefully can begin to get a handle and understanding of the issue.

Just looking at the Miami track layout - that run from turn 8 down to turn 11 might finish off the Merc drivers backs/necks if they don't sort out the porpoising issue asap.
They probably need to suck it up and just lose some performance in the car (it's not like it's "performing" well anyways) so they don't ruin their drivers in this early season run, and raise the ride height so they don't bounce as much.

No name Bertie wrote:The impression I had was the main reason for the sprint races was so that the track could make more money on the Fridays and Saturdays.  It costs a fortune for a track to host an F1 event and often they have to get state support to cover it.

With regard George Russell and Lewis Hamilton it just seems that Russell is able to get his car into a slightly better set-up than his team-mate.  It seems that Russell and Hamilton are varying their set-ups so that each session and each race the team is able to get more useful data from which they hopefully can begin to get a handle and understanding of the issue.

Well the second sentence is definitely true. Not so sure about the first...I guess a lot depends on how many fans turn out for the sprint races.

But one of the reasons they still haven't made a decision on whether to increase the number of sprint races is because the FIA are demanding a bigger share of the money, to allow them to employ more staff over the longer / busier weekends. Seems the teams aren't best pleased by this.

Same old same old...everybody wants more money... 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/61237029

In more interesting news they have largely thrashed out the new engine regs for 2026, though an actual agreement has yet to be finalised.

- sticking with 1.6 litre V6 hybrid turbos
- MGU-H to be removed
- hybrid part of the system will have to generate 50% of the power.
- 100% "sustainable fuel" to be used (presumably bio-ethanol or similar?)

They're also looking to introduce more design regs to further reduce drag & enable closer following.

VW have approved in principle entry bids by Audi and Porsche, but are waiting on final agreement of the new regs before fully committing. Would be nice to have 12 teams again.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Just looking at the Miami track layout - that run from turn 8 down to turn 11 might finish off the Merc drivers backs/necks if they don't sort out the porpoising issue asap.
They probably need to suck it up and just lose some performance in the car (it's not like it's "performing" well anyways) so they don't ruin their drivers in this early season run, and raise the ride height so they don't bounce as much.

Apparently Mercedes are already using a larger ride height than they would like. Doesn't seem to be helping much...

I'd love to know what data they've got that tells them the current design is better than their conventional sidepod design.

As I understand it, they would (in theory) lose some straight line speed, (not that they're getting it at the moment), but with less porpoising & being able to run a lower ride height, plus the drivers having a more stable car under them, surely that would make up some of the difference?

dyrewolfe wrote:I'd love to know what data they've got that tells them the current design is better than their conventional sidepod design.

It really is incredible how an organisation with that much engineering brainpower and technology has ended up in this position (you'd almost think Toto was being less than honest about them giving up on last year's car to work on this one...).

Also, while it seems unlikely given their comments; if Hamilton wanted sidepods and Russell didn't, would that be allowed?

You can’t run two different chassis’ as per the FIA rules. So Mercedes can use ‘no pods’ or the conventional style.
Secondly running two different cars would totally ruin the development plan for the engineers. As there is now a cost cap and restrictions on wind tunnel

Also Mercedes believe the ‘no pods’ is the only way they can compensate for having the weakest engine. With engine development frozen they have to keep this engine for 4 years. Supposedly the ‘no pods’ is worth 1 second of lap time. From people I know this seems highly improbable.
Mercedes’ car with side pods supposedly has so much drag even with development they will be miles behind Ferrari/RBR.

Race directors, Wittich and Freitas, both have tested positive for covid. FIA praying one of them is cleared for Miami. Otherwise Mr Masi might be wheeled out again.

Lowlandbrit wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:I'd love to know what data they've got that tells them the current design is better than their conventional sidepod design.

It really is incredible how an organisation with that much engineering brainpower and technology has ended up in this position (you'd almost think Toto was being less than honest about them giving up on last year's car to work on this one...).

Also, while it seems unlikely given their comments; if Hamilton wanted sidepods and Russell didn't, would that be allowed?

Everybody pretty much ended up in the same position. You can't model the underfloor effects. How close Mercedes would be if it wasn't an issue is debatable (they are miles off the top 2 at present), but nobody was prepared for it

In any case for Mercedes in 2021, see Ferrari in 2014. There's a fair amount of hope involved in a regulation reset.

dyrewolfe wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:The impression I had was the main reason for the sprint races was so that the track could make more money on the Fridays and Saturdays.  It costs a fortune for a track to host an F1 event and often they have to get state support to cover it.

With regard George Russell and Lewis Hamilton it just seems that Russell is able to get his car into a slightly better set-up than his team-mate.  It seems that Russell and Hamilton are varying their set-ups so that each session and each race the team is able to get more useful data from which they hopefully can begin to get a handle and understanding of the issue.

VW have approved in principle entry bids by Audi and Porsche, but are waiting on final agreement of the new regs before fully committing. Would be nice to have 12 teams again.

Sadly, they are not entering as new teams. Porsche, as I understand it, are going to be exclusively supplying engines to Red Bull whilst Audi are looking to buy out a current team rebranding it Audi. At present the best bet would be them buying out Aston Martin.

Jeff Navarro wrote:Race directors, Wittich and Freitas, both have tested positive for covid. FIA praying one of them is cleared for Miami. Otherwise Mr Masi might be wheeled out again.

Apparently both should be clear, the FIA are flying the formula E race director out to Miami just in case, with Wittich able to work from the FIA HQ in the worst case scenario

Jeff Navarro wrote:You can’t run two different chassis’ as per the FIA rules. So Mercedes can use ‘no pods’ or the conventional style.

Thanks, I figured there was something along those lines but I vaguely remember teams staggering in upgrades so I wondered how far they could theoretically go if they wanted.

GSC wrote:Everybody pretty much ended up in the same position. You can't model the underfloor effects.

I'm not saying everyone else has it all figured out, you'd just expect it would be some poorly funded smaller team looking most out at sea, and instead it's the incredibly well resourced Mercedes team pogoing down every straight (although still quite quickly, so maybe they only forgot a person actually has to sit in it for a whole race).
I'm slightly sceptical of the 'it's impossible to model' thing though; some team must be at least fairly close, even if they haven't worked out how to be both smooth and fast yet.

It is impossible to model, every team had it at the first test. For some teams it was easier to dial out sure, but that was a natural consequence of their design concept, not an intended outcome. You also can't run cars that low to the ground in wind tunnels without damaging equipment apparently.

Mercedes also have the third best car on the grid for all their troubles, albeit it performs much better at certain track layouts than others

Lowlandbrit wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:I'd love to know what data they've got that tells them the current design is better than their conventional sidepod design.

It really is incredible how an organisation with that much engineering brainpower and technology has ended up in this position (you'd almost think Toto was being less than honest about them giving up on last year's car to work on this one...).

Also, while it seems unlikely given their comments; if Hamilton wanted sidepods and Russell didn't, would that be allowed?

As Jeff said, both cars have to be the same design, according to the rules. Plus it makes economic sense - twice as much work and cost to develop 2 different cars.

I agree Toto was probably economical with the truth about last season.

At one point when it looked like RB were going to run away with the championship, they may have thought about throwing everything into this season. In fact, IIRC there were a few times where they said they had no new upgrades, while other teams were developing their cars.

But I'd say once it turned into an actual title battle, Merc would have tried to go toe to toe with RB. If they did, at least it partially paid off, with them winning the Constructors' title.

GSC wrote:

Lowlandbrit wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:I'd love to know what data they've got that tells them the current design is better than their conventional sidepod design.

It really is incredible how an organisation with that much engineering brainpower and technology has ended up in this position (you'd almost think Toto was being less than honest about them giving up on last year's car to work on this one...).

Also, while it seems unlikely given their comments; if Hamilton wanted sidepods and Russell didn't, would that be allowed?

Everybody pretty much ended up in the same position. You can't model the underfloor effects. How close Mercedes would be if it wasn't an issue is debatable (they are miles off the top 2 at present), but nobody was prepared for it

Well, everybody seems to have managed to mitigate (if not eliminate) the porpoising except Mercedes. They're the only team that went down the "no-pod" avenue.

Also you CAN model under-floor aero effects on computer...you just can't simulate them in a wind tunnel. Important distinction. That said you need the right data to put into the model...the old computing adage applies: garbage in = garbage out.

In this case we're seeing the results of no teams having any prior experience of designing ground-effect cars. No-one predicted the porpoising, but everyone except Merc seem to have made it manageable. Maybe someone should have had a word with some of the guys who were around in the late 70s?

In any case, they've had more than enough time to see the issues their design is causing on track, both in pre-season and in races. As far as we know they are no closer to understanding why its happening.

So my reasoning is that, instead of simply hoping they will suddenly stumble on the cause of the problem...then presumably have to spend weeks or months longer finding and implementing a solution...why not revert to the more conventional design?

First and foremost to protect the drivers
Secondly because it gives them a more stable platform to develop
Third, they aren't getting the expected straight line speed advantage anyway, so they shouldn't in theory lose much performance, if any.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:The impression I had was the main reason for the sprint races was so that the track could make more money on the Fridays and Saturdays.  It costs a fortune for a track to host an F1 event and often they have to get state support to cover it.

With regard George Russell and Lewis Hamilton it just seems that Russell is able to get his car into a slightly better set-up than his team-mate.  It seems that Russell and Hamilton are varying their set-ups so that each session and each race the team is able to get more useful data from which they hopefully can begin to get a handle and understanding of the issue.

VW have approved in principle entry bids by Audi and Porsche, but are waiting on final agreement of the new regs before fully committing. Would be nice to have 12 teams again.

Sadly, they are not entering as new teams. Porsche, as I understand it, are going to be exclusively supplying engines to Red Bull whilst Audi are looking to buy out a current team rebranding it Audi. At present the best bet would be them buying out Aston Martin.

Porsche won't be supplying engines to Red Bull...they are building their own engine plant near their existing HQ. They are looking to have it ready to begin building powertrains in time for the new engine regs in 2026.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/red-bull-breaks-ground-on-ambitious-f1-powertrain-division/6400258/


Also Aston Martin are just the title sponsor of the team. Its still owned by Lawrence Stroll. Porsche / VW would have to buy him out...unless they are just looking to be the new title sponsor. 

Just read this very confusing article:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/audis-f1-entry-plan-and-how-its-taken-a-twist/

In which it seems the initial idea was for both Audi and Porsche to enter teams, buying engines from Red Bull.

It still looks as though Porsche want to go down that route, but now it seems Audi want their own power plant...but look as though they will pick up Porsche's F1 engine development (they were dyno testing one back in 2018) and use that. Though as you said, it appears they now don't want to form a team from scratch, but instead want to "get hold of" an existing one (presumably buying outright, rather than just being a title sponsor).

Bloody confusing! But if its correct, we will at least have 11 teams on the grid for 2026.

dyrewolfe wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:The impression I had was the main reason for the sprint races was so that the track could make more money on the Fridays and Saturdays.  It costs a fortune for a track to host an F1 event and often they have to get state support to cover it.

With regard George Russell and Lewis Hamilton it just seems that Russell is able to get his car into a slightly better set-up than his team-mate.  It seems that Russell and Hamilton are varying their set-ups so that each session and each race the team is able to get more useful data from which they hopefully can begin to get a handle and understanding of the issue.

VW have approved in principle entry bids by Audi and Porsche, but are waiting on final agreement of the new regs before fully committing. Would be nice to have 12 teams again.

Sadly, they are not entering as new teams. Porsche, as I understand it, are going to be exclusively supplying engines to Red Bull whilst Audi are looking to buy out a current team rebranding it Audi. At present the best bet would be them buying out Aston Martin.

Porsche won't be supplying engines to Red Bull...they are building their own engine plant near their existing HQ. They are looking to have it ready to begin building powertrains in time for the new engine regs in 2026.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/red-bull-breaks-ground-on-ambitious-f1-powertrain-division/6400258/


Also Aston Martin are just the title sponsor of the team. Its still owned by Lawrence Stroll. Porsche / VW would have to buy him out...unless they are just looking to be the new title sponsor. 

Just read this very confusing article:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/audis-f1-entry-plan-and-how-its-taken-a-twist/

In which it seems the initial idea was for both Audi and Porsche to enter teams, buying engines from Red Bull.

It still looks as though Porsche want to go down that route, but now it seems Audi want their own power plant...but look as though they will pick up Porsche's F1 engine development (they were dyno testing one back in 2018) and use that. Though as you said, it appears they now don't want to form a team from scratch, but instead want to "get hold of" an existing one (presumably buying outright, rather than just being a title sponsor).

Bloody confusing! But if its correct, we will at least have 11 teams on the grid for 2026.

Lawrence Stroll is a businessman first and foremost. I cannot see him continuing to throw money into a team if it continues to struggle and has to satisfy itself with the odd point here and there. If Audi come in with an offer he could very well be tempted to sell his shares in the team. Audi also being linked to taking over Alfa Romeo (well Sauber really). Many reports out there suggesting Porsche are developing engines for Red Bull's sole use but if that is no longer the case then they'll no doubt supply their engines to other teams.

VW Group says they want Porsche to have 50% of the shares in Red Bull Racing. Seems pretty far fetched. £500m doesn’t get you 50% stake in Red Bull Racing.

Audi and Porsche will both enter, albeit Porsche effectively running RBs engine development. I guess an Audi team might also buy engines in from this partnership. Unclear who they're buying

Audi still hopes to buyout McLaren. Deal with Aston Martin complicated by Mercedes(Stuttgart) owning 20% of AM.

Jeff Navarro wrote:Audi still hopes to buyout McLaren. Deal with Aston Martin complicated by Mercedes(Stuttgart) owning 20% of AM.

Good luck with that.

They would have to buy out a bunch of owners - the main one being Bahrain's Mumtalakat investment company which owns a 56% stake. Then you have TAG Group which owns 14%.

Michael Latifi (Nick's dad) recently paid £200 million for a 10% stake...so presumably Audi would need to find £2 billion for full control...or over half that for a controlling interest.

https://thesportsgrail.com/mclaren-f1-owners-list-and-net-worth/

This track in Miami seems like a vanity project. They’ve built a fake Marina. What’s the bloody point?

This is Liberty's big project. I don't really blame them for trying to entrench themselves in the US market now they finally have a hook.

The track looks pretty terrible though. A lot of very slow speed stuff plus a bunch of long drs straights

According to the track side reporters:
Mercedes - new front wing end plates, new rear wing and new beam wing
Ferrari - new rear wing
Red Bull - no new parts, but Perez gets the weight reduction package that Verstappen received at Imola.

Sainz wrecks his car in FP2 - Ferrari gonna be checking that new deal for a break clause soon…

I recall seeing an old interview with Dr Marko regarding Verstappen vs Sainz. The Austrian claimed at the time Verstappen was better as Sainz can’t deal with the pressure....
As crude as Marko is, he’s been proven correct...

Ocon crashes in FP3

Red Bulls laying down a marker, albeit Max almost joining Sainz and Ocon on a faster lap. Looks like normal service has resumed behind the top 2

Mercedes doing glamour runs yesterday, a massive 1.5secs off the pace today

Ocons chassis needs extensive repairs and he won't qualify

Ricciardo’s career has seriously been a joke since he left Red Bull. He’s largely irrelevant bar winning at Monza. Sad really.

Had some good results at Renault. But the McLaren move has just been a disaster for both parties

The horses came to play in Q3. LeClerc Pole and Sainz second. Red Bull duo three and four.

Ferrari 1-2 as Max messed up his final run. Imagine this is gonna be a messy GP all the same

GSC wrote:Had some good results at Renault. But the McLaren move has just been a disaster for both parties

Really is tough to see it lasting beyond this year now - and where would he go from here?

Probably be an attractive name if a new team wanted a marquee signing.

GSC wrote:Probably be an attractive name if a new team wanted a marquee signing.

I guess if Williams wanted to ditch Latifi, Danny Ric would bring some money in…otherwise maybe Aston if Vettel retires. Not many other options with K Mag seemingly back in for the long haul at Haas

I don’t think Daniel Ricciardo is really an attractive option when you factor in:
1. Age - he’s 33 in July
2. Salary - $15m at McLaren

Factor in, for example, Sebastian Vettel - he’s 1 year older than Ricciardo and is on a reputed similar salary at Aston Martin. He also has the benefit of being 4 time champion.

There’s young (Italian) Australian star Oscar Piastri available from Renault on loan. I’d be taking him over Ricciardo.

You can probably get Pierre Gasly on a salary under $10m.

Ricciardo just doesn’t seem worth the risk anymore.

Red Bull looks better on tyres as well as the straight line advantage. Still, be amazed if we don't see safety car(s)

Perez having to ctrl alt delete in a race

Looking like it's Max Verstappen vs his engine lasting a race distance atm

Gonna be awkward when Mercedes have to deploy the second driver to block bottas

There it is

Perez might be on for this win

Checo has a engine issue though. Lost some power according to Horner.

Wonder if Mercedes will tell Lewis to let George through

Old habits die hard as Valteri sees a Mercedes in his mirrors and drives off the track

Unless we can find more straight line speed it’s going to be very frustrating for LeClerc.