English 6 Nations

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jan/05/six-nations-rugby-covid-rob-baxter

A potential answer to a potential problem. Baxter has said that if there is a risk of cancellations or playing in front of 1 man and his dog you may as well play all the games in England.

I suppose an interesting suggestion. If they could agree a slice of revenue from whichever grounds would host along with some teams giving up home advantage would people want to see this? It doesn't reduce the risk at all, merely increases it surely, gives England an advantage. It's unlikely the Government will bring in further restrictions as their hands are tied by the back benchers so reduces the risk of last minute changes. Just a big melting pot of cross contamination.


'Rob Baxter, Exeter’s director of rugby, believes that playing this season’s Six Nations in one country has “got to be better than cancelling it”.

The tournament is due to kick off in Dublin and Edinburgh on 5 February but currently finds itself shrouded in uncertainty. Under current Welsh Government restrictions imposed due to the pandemic and, specifically, the omicron variant, Wales would have to play scheduled home games against Scotland, France and Italy behind closed doors. Scotland are in a similar position for games at Murrayfield, while it has been reported that Wales could consider moving their home against Scotland, France and Italy to England.

Financial implications of behind-closed-doors home games for the Welsh Rugby Union would be significant. They faced an identical situation for last season’s tournament, with the shutters being down for matches against Ireland and England. Full crowds were, however, allowed at the Principality Stadium for Wales’ recent Autumn Nations Series before fresh restrictions took effect from Boxing Day.

Capacity crowds are currently allowed in England, provided spectators can prove full vaccination status or provide a negative lateral flow test. Against such a backdrop, playing the whole competition – it takes place across five weekends between early February and mid-March – in one country with permitted crowds has also been mooted in some quarters.

“The whole beauty of the Six Nations has been that change of environment, that change of weather conditions, going to play in Scotland, Wales, Ireland – those are the great challenges,” said Baxter. “That’s what makes the Six Nations such a great competition to win. You’ve seen French teams in that one week they can beat anyone in the world in Paris, and then the next week it doesn’t go quite so well in Cardiff. That’s the beauty of the tournament, that’s what from a rugby perspective I am sure we would all want to see happen.

“That said, we can’t all sit here and pretend the world is in an ideal place at the moment. For the national bodies, their responsibility goes beyond the professional sport, it goes right down to grassroots rugby, so if playing the tournament provides a level of income that cancelling it or no crowds doesn’t create, then we’ve got to look at the next best scenario. If the next best scenario is playing it in one country, where you can have sellout crowds, you can raise some revenue and you can keep that income stream going for all the bodies, then it’s got to be better than cancelling it.


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“I think with every sporting body, it’s revenue that is the biggest thing that has been damaged, so anything that can keep revenue online has got to be preferable to just binning things for a season,” Baxter added. “We’ve all had to try and find a way to keep going, to try and keep revenue coming in. It’s the same with any business, you’ve got to explore those options.”

Starting Genge vs Marler to my mind depends on two things - whether Marler has lost any fitness with his COVID bout (probably not - he was described as asymptomatic) and what the expected shape of the game is.

If we're expecting a wet, cold afternoon with a lot of scrums, then Marler's still far enough ahead in the setpiece that I can see Eddie wanting his stability. If we're expecting both sides to try to play out of the gates and a close finish then it may work the other way round.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Id actually like to see Ludlum and Curry on the flanks. With Barbeary off the bench.

Dombrandt can be the 3rd jumper.

Ludlam does jump ( get lifted) for Saints and I thought Curry did for Sale, as well as occasionally for England, with Dombrandt, that gives us 5 possible jumpers, one of which will drop out into the back line. None are to Lawes standard, but should be able to keep the Scots guessing a bit.

Poorfour wrote:Starting Genge vs Marler to my mind depends on two things - whether Marler has lost any fitness with his COVID bout (probably not - he was described as asymptomatic) and what the expected shape of the game is.

If we're expecting a wet, cold afternoon with a lot of scrums, then Marler's still far enough ahead in the setpiece that I can see Eddie wanting his stability. If we're expecting both sides to try to play out of the gates and a close finish then it may work the other way round.

Marler looked off the pace after his last Covid positive test. Genge is in good form. Makes sense to start Genge and have Marler off the bench for this one.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Starting Genge vs Marler to my mind depends on two things - whether Marler has lost any fitness with his COVID bout (probably not - he was described as asymptomatic) and what the expected shape of the game is.

If we're expecting a wet, cold afternoon with a lot of scrums, then Marler's still far enough ahead in the setpiece that I can see Eddie wanting his stability. If we're expecting both sides to try to play out of the gates and a close finish then it may work the other way round.

Marler looked off the pace after his last Covid positive test. Genge is in good form. Makes sense to start Genge and have Marler off the bench for this one.

First time round he had symptoms, this time he's asymptomatic. It's not the same.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Starting Genge vs Marler to my mind depends on two things - whether Marler has lost any fitness with his COVID bout (probably not - he was described as asymptomatic) and what the expected shape of the game is.

If we're expecting a wet, cold afternoon with a lot of scrums, then Marler's still far enough ahead in the setpiece that I can see Eddie wanting his stability. If we're expecting both sides to try to play out of the gates and a close finish then it may work the other way round.

Marler looked off the pace after his last Covid positive test. Genge is in good form. Makes sense to start Genge and have Marler off the bench for this one.

First time round he had symptoms, this time he's asymptomatic. It's not the same.

Still not trained for a week. It's the luxury of having two first class players for a position you don't need to rush a guy back in who's not been training.

I agree. Those 2 are near enough 50 50 anyway.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Still not trained for a week. It's the luxury of having two first class players for a position you don't need to rush a guy back in who's not been training.

Not trained with the team for the week. Even during the previous bout Marler was (famously) training on his own using a disused chicken run in his garden.

Barbeary, Heyes, Hill, Bailey, Lynagh, Northmore, Quirke, Radwan released back to their clubs.

Ffs.

And Lawes not considered either so guessing again ita something like:

Genge LCD Sinckler
Ewels Itoje
Isiekwe Curry
Dombrandt
Youngs Smith
H-C Atkinson Slade Nowell
Steward

Marler George Stuart Chessum Simmonds Randall Ford Malins.

Ludlam will definitely be involved I'd say. Even if they go for a like-for-like replacement for Lawes then Ludlam would still be favourite for the bench.

From those released my only real irk is Quirke. Getting to type that almost alleviated frustrations there though.

Marchant has been retained and I've not seen anything to see that he's not under consideration. I'd definitely still pick Daly or Marchant over OHC.

1.Genge 2.LCD 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Ewels 6.Ludlam 7.Curry (c) 8.Dombrandt
9.Youngs 10.Smith 11.Nowell 12.Atkinson 13.Slade 14.Malins 15.Steward

16.George 17.Marler 18.Stuart 19.Isiekwe 20.Simmonds 21.Randall 22.Ford 23.Marchant/Daly

That would be my prediction. Given all the absentees I'd be pretty happy with that 23 as well.

I presume Quirke has been released to go and get some game time with Sale as he hasn't played since mid December.

I'd guess Isiekwe will be the 6 option in keeping with what Lawes offered. Ludlam and Chessum picking up the bench spots.

Interesting news on Isiekwe because the language used about him was very much 'being kept on to train with squad' not 'crucial player'. I guess he's done well in training. Very interesting that Hill has been sent home, given how he was becoming established. Only 3 locks left in the squad so all must stay involved (assuming Chessum misses out?)

Wasn't there some concerns over Quirke carrying an injury?

Jonny Hill has a foot injury. Stress fracture.

king_carlos wrote:Jonny Hill has a foot injury. Stress fracture.

sh!te

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Still not trained for a week. It's the luxury of having two first class players for a position you don't need to rush a guy back in who's not been training.

Not trained with the team for the week. Even during the previous bout Marler was (famously) training on his own using a disused chicken run in his garden.

Marler would start every time over Genge, he's at a different level.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Still not trained for a week. It's the luxury of having two first class players for a position you don't need to rush a guy back in who's not been training.

Not trained with the team for the week. Even during the previous bout Marler was (famously) training on his own using a disused chicken run in his garden.

Marler would start every time over Genge, he's at a different level.

And I think Quirke Randall etc etc are better than Youngs but Jones will pick him. I think you're in the same space with Genge. Re the latter his name was mentioned as supporting Lawes in captaining and was co captain against Canada wasn't he.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Still not trained for a week. It's the luxury of having two first class players for a position you don't need to rush a guy back in who's not been training.

Not trained with the team for the week. Even during the previous bout Marler was (famously) training on his own using a disused chicken run in his garden.

Famously, training at home didn't hamper the Los Pumas against the ABs.

I think for pro players a shorter time off might not be deadly if training at home or separated from the team (unless new plays or calls are put in and require walk/run-throughs) if they are doing their work as directed by the team and are honest about what they are doing.  For me, any player returning from Covid the lung capacity and pulmonary testing is one of the requisites for return to play.    

A few years ago, before Covid, a pro NHL player I was treating for a torn meniscus rehabbed at home then ran the hills and trails around my house.  When cleared, he went to one real training session and played a blinder in his first game back.  He couldn't train with the team for almost four weeks because he also had a lung infection which made him sensitive to being around too many people.  Couldn't get back to the team until both the knee and infection were dealt with.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Still not trained for a week. It's the luxury of having two first class players for a position you don't need to rush a guy back in who's not been training.

Not trained with the team for the week. Even during the previous bout Marler was (famously) training on his own using a disused chicken run in his garden.

Marler would start every time over Genge, he's at a different level.

I wouldn't say different level. We're comparing the best defensive loosehead Vs the best attacking loosehead in the Prem.

If all things were equal I'd want us to start Marler and then bring on Genge early in the second half. Tell Marler he can go all in and doesn't need to hold anything back. Unleash Genge to make an impact as the opposition are a little tired.

For this weekend, the side seems to be developing based on how we approached the AIs. Having not had chance to work on the scrum or lineout with what's a slightly changed squad I'd reverse the selection. Start Genge and then look for Marler for the last half an hour.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Still not trained for a week. It's the luxury of having two first class players for a position you don't need to rush a guy back in who's not been training.

Not trained with the team for the week. Even during the previous bout Marler was (famously) training on his own using a disused chicken run in his garden.

Marler would start every time over Genge, he's at a different level.

I wouldn't say different level. We're comparing the best defensive loosehead Vs the best attacking loosehead in the Prem.

If all things were equal I'd want us to start Marler and then bring on Genge early in the second half. Tell Marler he can go all in and doesn't need to hold anything back. Unleash Genge to make an impact as the opposition are a little tired.

For this weekend, the side seems to be developing based on how we approached the AIs. Having not had chance to work on the scrum or lineout with what's a slightly changed squad I'd reverse the selection. Start Genge and then look for Marler for the last half an hour.

Genge has showed little of his prem from for England, he shouldn't be put in the same bracket of one of the premier LH's in world rugby.

Not sure you can suggest Randall or Quirk are better players than Youngs 7.5. They may have better passes (and this pains to me say it), Youngs is ahead until they prove otherwise.

By a country mile they are.

No 7&1/2 wrote:By a country mile they are.

Ah c'mon.....you know i'm in your boat with Youngs and his random passing, but he's got more than these 2. Randall's kicking is pretty poor for starters, nowhere near good enough for Int rugby. Quirke looks the real deal but need to put together a run of games without getting injured before we can really judge him.

Proving my point we're at the same point then. Genge is class and very near Marler. Jones disagrees with us on our views.

Youngs may well have one of his 1 in 10 games at the weekend, keeping my fingers crossed but he's going backwards these days.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Proving my point we're at the same point then. Genge is class and very near Marler. Jones disagrees with us on our views.

Youngs may well have one of his 1 in 10 games at the weekend, keeping my fingers crossed but he's going backwards these days.

Youngs isn't going backwards, quite the opposite. He's been playing some of his best and most consistent rugby in years this season. A mixture of a proper summer off, the new S&C regime at Tigers and Borthwick's rotation system mean he's less over worked and has started to show more of his attacking game again. 

At this point in time Youngs has never been further ahead of Randall who looks a complete liability because of his box kicking. I'd have preferred Mitchell to be benching if Quirke isn't match fit (which I'm guessing he's not having not played for a month).

He's 2nd best at Leicester now Sam for me. But the point stands, we all disagree with at least 1 Jones selection.

7.5

Have you considered that your near masochistic need to pretty much solely observe and comment on any mistake vaguely involving Youngs during England matches might have led to an incredibly one sided view?

During England match threads a significant proportion of your posts will just be blaming anything that happens vaguely near a scrum-half as Youngs fault.

"Ffs Youngs"
"Youngs again"
"Get it out Youngs"

It reached the point in the AIs, where even most other posters on here who have been critical of Youngs thought he played well, that I genuinely wondered how you possibly enjoy watching international rugby anymore if that is your main focus.

Half the time most of them aren't even Youngs errors. In the AIs half the time you made those posts it was due to things like a poor clearout not securing the ball, a forward over running a line, a poor chase on a decent kick, etc.

What can I say king. The point of the post was to point out none of us agree fully with Jones choices. Your points there I'd reject most to be honest but there are grains of truth. I'll probably notice his mistakes more and it is frustrating when I feel he's not being quick enough and doesn't have the quality of pass. I did praise him during the AIs for increased sniping his better attribute. Vice versa people who think he's the best choice will turn a blind eye to his errors and paint them as down to someone else.

As enjoying watching England. It was a hard slog last year, no I didn't enjoy a lot of it, similar to 2020. I'm hopeful that will change this year. Plenty of changes, about a third of probable starters out, new coaches, new outlook of kicking less possession away.

I've been very critical of Youngs over the years, especially his form with Tigers at times. My view with England has long remained that there just aren't the alternatives others have suggested.

Care - He could be brilliant but as a starter at international level his kicking game got woefully found out

Robson - I know Sarge in particular disagrees with my view as he didn't get a run of starts but his Tom Varndell in a blindfold level defensive work and sub Care level kicking meant he never looked an international 9

Spencer - Has shown good club form at Bath and Sarries but can go up and down, at the end of the day when he left Sarries aged 27 he was still heavily rotated with Wigglesworth

Randall - Personally I'm skeptical of his kicking game, he does get stuck in defensively unlike Robson though and is very quick

Quirke - A potential star but needs to string some games together

Youngs isn't perfect but remains the best option we have.

So nick Easter wants Dombran't to start in the 8 shirt in front of Simmonds, hmmm does any one think Easter could be a little bias her? An ex harlequin no 8 bigging up the current Harlequin no 8. I do wander?
Still not an easy choice for EJ is it?

majesticimperialman wrote:So nick Easter wants Dombran't to start in the 8 shirt in front of Simmonds, hmmm does any one think Easter could be a little bias her? An ex harlequin no 8 bigging up the current Harlequin no 8. I do wander?
Still not an easy choice for EJ is it?

It's more v1.0 bigging up v2.0. I like to joke that DHL delivered Dombrandt to the Stoop in a crate marked "New, Improved Nick Easter - now faster, and with better hair".

I really don't think Eddie sees Simmonds as a No8, certainly not a first choice one. He'd rather have Curry there. I think the rationale is that back rows are trending taller - at least one player needs to be a credible lineout jumper, preferably more. With Dombrandt and Lawes, he gets two. With, say, Ludlam and Simmonds, he loses quite a lot of height.

Youngs is best 9 option? In what parallel universe is that?
Care last 3 years at least should have been picked and should still be starting 9. Backed up by Quirke and Randall. I'd also get Spencer back in for a look as well.

In the universe where Eddie wants his scrum half to follow a specific plan and doesn't want them to deviate, even if it salvages victory from the jaws of defeat...

England have top class (many/ most? World class) players in 13 positions.

9 and 12 are the exceptions

geoff999rugby wrote:England have top class (many/ most? World class) players in 13 positions.

9 and 12 are the exceptions

We don't have that many top class players. No one does. We have good internationals in a lot of positions but world class really only at 2, 4 and 7 though you could make an argument for 1.

Depends on your definition of World class - very subjective.

Let’s put it another way I reckon Ireland have two areas of obvious weakness.
By way of comparison I reckon Ireland have definitely 3 and arguably 6, although their are same good prospects coming through, not at 10.
The three are 9 and the two wings

Love a good world class debate; and that's just deciding on a definition.

I haven't seen the average age of this England squad but I'd imagine it's got to be quite low, France were averaging about 24 and while they hit the heights there's still inconsistency there as you'd expect. The most interesting thing for me over these next couple of games will be to see how the locks go. Itoje barring injury is a mainstay but there's a serious opportunity for the much maligned Ewels, and then Isiekwe or Chessum to propel themselves from no where. Or indeed for Lawes and Launchbury to be back in the fold. Given the decisions on the Vunipola's could well see Jones just roll the dice?

majesticimperialman wrote:So nick Easter wants Dombran't to start in the 8 shirt in front of Simmonds, hmmm does any one think Easter could be a little bias her? An ex harlequin no 8 bigging up the current Harlequin no 8. I do wander?
Still not an easy choice for EJ is it?

He wants to focus on sorting out our (falcons) defence which is more leaky than a leaky thing in a leaky place.

I've never been a fan of the endless "world class" debates, because I think they're a nonsense in a game as team oriented as rugby.

But I think it's even less relevant at the moment, because we're entering an era where there's an unprecedented level of talent across countries and positions. In previous years if you picked a position you might look across the tournament and see one or two games that were particularly tasty for the match up between the leading players in that position.

But this year, it's almost easier to look at where there are mismatches in positions. Injuries permitting, all of the old 5 Nations have top tier talent in maybe 10 or more positions.

Even Italy have some real potential in the likes of Garbisi - when was the last time that every team in the tournament could out out a really capable fly half?

I think the tournament is going to be decided on some relatively intangible things:
- For Scotland, squad depth and how well they can stay in the game in the last 20
- For Wales, who get injured and who comes back from injury and when
- For Ireland, whether they can keep Sexton (and a few others) intact through the tournament
- For France, consistency, keeping away from cards, and picking when to play
- For England, how quickly some very unfamiliar combinations can gel, and whether Smith gets fazed by the occasion (don't count on it, by the way.)
- For Italy, whether they can take their chance when it arrives. They are competitive for the first 50. If they can go into the last quarter of a game with a lead and defend it, they could nick one or two.

Regardless of what happens on the pitch, at least England fans are trusted with normal strength beer (even if it is the usual stadium swill)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60227273

Final team/ squad is being announced this morning isn't it?

Regarding Italy, I was watching an interesting youtube video about their potential to turn the corner in the relatively near future. I'd noticed that they had started improving at age grade, but I hadn't clocked by quite how much. They seem to be doing very well at U18s, so this years junior 6Ns should be interesting. If they can bed some of these youngsters in and add a couple of quality Italian exiles, they could really become competitive in the tournament. Unfortunately for them, it may come at a time when the other teams in the Six Nations are improving exponentially too! I hope it comes off for them though, we need as many genuinely competitive teams as possible.

I believe it's 11.30 but don't quote me on that...

Fookin heck

Interesting. Surprised Simmonds is starting but good news at 8. I'd have started Dombrandt with Simmonds on bench. Daley at 13? His best position, hopefully has a better game than last 6N. No Quirke on bench? Injured?

Quirke injured or short on game time.

It is a very pacy squad. I can imagine Steward coming into the line to add bulk with Daly dropping back to cover. Back line all very 'multi skilled' too.

mountain man wrote:Interesting. Surprised Simmonds is starting but good news at 8. I'd have started Dombrandt with Simmonds on bench. Daley at 13? His best position, hopefully has a better game than last 6N. No Quirke on bench? Injured?

released earlier in the week.

lostinwales wrote:Quirke injured or short on game time.

It is a very pacy squad. I can imagine Steward coming into the line to add bulk with Daly dropping back to cover. Back line all very 'multi skilled' too.

Maybe but I don't want to see Daley at 15. He had a mare last 6N there, not secure enough under high ball whereas Steward is rock solid. But as you say with Daley, Malins, Marchant in backline very multi skilled. I'd like to see Nowell get a go in 2nd half as well.

Given injuries, it's a good 23 I reckon.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:So nick Easter wants Dombran't to start in the 8 shirt in front of Simmonds, hmmm does any one think Easter could be a little bias her? An ex harlequin no 8 bigging up the current Harlequin no 8. I do wander?
Still not an easy choice for EJ is it?

He wants to focus on sorting out our (falcons) defence which is more leaky than a leaky thing in a leaky place.

Boom boom down

Simmonds......oh Eddie, why do you do this to us. Daly with no game time that I can recall (may be wrong) waltzes back into the side in his worst position.

Looking at the sides, I'd have the Jocks as favourites.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Simmonds......oh Eddie, why do you do this to us. Daly with no game time that I can recall (may be wrong) waltzes back into the side in his worst position.

Looking at the sides, I'd have the Jocks as favourites.

Daly has played 6 times this season for Saracens (starting 5) Once at OC, once at FB, other 3 wearing 11.

He also started one game for the Lions at 13 (The one we won)

He's played OC 52% of all his games, mainly because that was his principle position at Wasps. For Saracens (and England) he's been bouncing between 11 and 15

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Simmonds......oh Eddie, why do you do this to us. Daly with no game time that I can recall (may be wrong) waltzes back into the side in his worst position.

Looking at the sides, I'd have the Jocks as favourites.

Eh? I'd have preferred Dombrandt too, but Simmonds is playing well. And if you think Daly is a worse 13 than he is a fullback then I am very puzzled as to your reasoning.

He got stitched up on the Lions tour, but that was less through any fault of his own and much more because of a stupid outdated gameplan in which de Allende and Am knew he was getting the ball every time and so could just go all out to flatten him. With Smith and Slade inside him and Marchant and Malins outside, England have many more choices for where to go than the Lions did, and if Scotland bite in on the OC channel the ball will just go somewhere else. And if they hesitate or pick a different target, the ball can come to him.

I'd rather have had Marchant at 13, because of the understanding between him and Smith, but I have no problem with seeing what Daly can do in that lineup.

Daly must have played 5 games at 13 in the last 5 years??? Simmonds is just not at this level, I can't think of a more underpowered backrower in world rugby.

A FB on the wing
A 13 on the wing
A 13 at 12
A wing at 13

The most baffling backline selection I've seen from Eddie yet.