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England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Post by hugehandoff Sun 20 Mar 2022, 5:50 pm

First topic message reminder :

A few things whirling around my head and most start with the fact that Eddie is likely to remain in charge. There are probably a lack of available alternatives and the RFU won't want to fork out more money. Therefore, he is likely to remain in charge until the RWC 2023 is done. Bearing that in mind what are the positives and negatives?

Positives
We have some decent forwards for sure and the set piece should be fine. Underhill was terrific yesterday and I think a return to Curry and Underhill playing around a big 8 would be very handy. Dombrandt should be that man.
Our defence is excellent and the team spirit is clearly there.
We have loads of quality players who can hopefully return to fitness and form and add to the mix. All countries lose players and of course we have more resources than anyone bar France, but we will no doubt look completely different if Launchbury, Hill, Curry, Cowan-Dickie, Manu, May, Watson, Cockanasiga, Farrell are all fit and firing.
We have some foundations to build on and it is not Eddie's fault that we have not had Manu, or a decent replacement, available to add some power to our midfield.
There is enough time to fix many of these issues.

Negatives
Inconsistent selection
Inconsistent tactics and coaching team (too many coaching changes). Taking over from Lancaster Eddie was very clear on what to do. Restore England's traditional strengths in the set piece, defence and back it up with good kicking. Now we are totally confused as what we are trying to do.
The whole thing about playing players not in their best positions
Everyone is bored with Eddie's comments - we need less of him

Aus Tour
What a statement he made by winning 3-0 last time post a grand slam. Ruthless in taking off Burrell after 25 minutes. And they were missing Manu then as well and ended up with Ford, Farrell and Joseph so if we assume that Manu is unavailable then there is still hope. But we need players in their correct position and we need some consistency. Considering we don't have too many options at 12 and Slade is not really working out should we revert to Farrell? Not exactly a running beast, but at least he will be fresh and might just add some toughness. I would love to see Youngs left behind and to back 2 of our younger 9s. Genge, Dombrandt, Smith, Steward etc all need exposure to a tough away series.

Autumn
Based purely on form this is now the time to select the 23 Eddie sees as our strongest RWC team. All bets are off now and if a Mako or Bill V are playing well and showing the form and hunger to return then why not consider them. We might need then in the RWC group even if they are back ups to the regular starters. So maybe give them a game to see where they are? And then hopefully we can enjoy some consistent selection allied with a revamped game plan.

Anyone else hopeful that Eddie can resurrect the team and our RWC ambitions?

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Post by mountain man Thu 07 Apr 2022, 5:09 pm

To be fair Dallagio does know his rugby but his failing is he is too England biased during commentary. Not sure about everyone else on here but I haven't represented England or won a 6N or World Cup whereas he has so he does have some idea what's going on.
By far worst of all is Wilkinson who is extreme of brilliant player on one side and bloody awful pundit on other. Not biased just waffles on and on and goes off on a tangent somewhere.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 07 Apr 2022, 5:17 pm

Dallaglio if he does know what he's on about hides it extremely well.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 07 Apr 2022, 5:29 pm

One thing about Eddie Jones is he is very competitive.  So despite questions about tactics, selection, and intermediate results (like the 6 Nations), he knows his legacy is tied to the RWC.  So I think everything he does is geared towards that goal.  For us, we want to see improvement and progress moving towards the RWC.  But it seems EJ is looking at each of these international windows as opportunities to continue to tinker with selections and tactics and may believe he can piece this all together in the leadup to the RWC next year.  

Unfortunately, right now we are seeing a poor run of results and that makes the optics of his outside consultancy look bad.  And, in my opinion, even if the consultancy is not impacting his job with England, he is in a leadership role and appearances are important.  Consequently, I would prefer he drops that role for the next 18 months.  I also don't care if he participates in training sessions with the clubs, but there is no reason he can't/shouldn't attend some.  He does attend matches on a regular basis.  

Regarding his love children, I think EJ has loyalty to no one but EJ.  So if he thinks someone gives a better chance to win than, say, Owen Farrell, then Farrell will be dropped immediately.  The problem is he may not think there are better alternatives.  But these are the judgements he is paid a lot of dough to make, right or wrong.  

He is certainly a difficult personality.  Unless he defames the Queen or loses to Italy, I doubt he is going anywhere.

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 08 Apr 2022, 1:58 am

doctor_grey wrote:...I think EJ has loyalty to no one but EJ.  So if he thinks someone gives a better chance to win than, say, Owen Farrell, then Farrell will be dropped immediately...

That sounds right.

When Jones decided to stick around for another World Cup, he knew he hadn't developed a deep pool of England players outside the squad he named in 2019. He almost certainly expected to be able to make a challenge in 2023 with largely the same personnel. After all, the average age wasn't high. As it stands right now, only Mark Wilson has retired through injury. Willi Heinz is unavailable, because he's gone back to New Zealand, and George Kruis decided to spend more time with his business. Everyone else - even Dan Cole - is still playing.

Jones may have looked at South Africa's 2019 success, with Erasmus turning around an underperforming side less than two years out from the tournament, and drawn the conclusion it's better to make a late run. The whole schtick about taking time to evolve the attack, is a desire to try and take rivals by surprise.

However, he probably anticipated doing that with largely the same roster. If he really thought he'd need to drop a serious number of total caps from his squad, then he surely would have tried bringing some new faces in sooner, COVID notwithstanding.

That Planet Rugby video is interesting. With all their criticisms of Jones, in particular his coaching turnover, they don't really accuse him of picking the wrong players. Their final matchday 23 looks like a selection Jones could easily make, with the glaring exception of Danny Care. Both Nick Easter and George Chuter would prefer better back-up tighthead props, and neither know why George McGuigan hasn't been considered for hooker. It was interesting to hear Easter maintain Launchbury is hands-down the best lock partner option for Itoje.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 08 Apr 2022, 9:54 am

Well Eddie needs to win this one...so he'll be going hammer and tong to win it!

The run in starts now!!

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Post by mountain man Fri 08 Apr 2022, 10:11 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well Eddie needs to win this one...so he'll be going hammer and tong to win it!

The run in starts now!!

Assume you mean RWC? He's bet the farm on it but if England don't win - and I have my doubts - then he'll be disappointed but he'll be snapped up by another country to coach straight away. When he's gone post RWC2023 if England don't win then the failing as such will be much worse for players and fans than Jones.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 08 Apr 2022, 10:17 am

mountain man wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Well Eddie needs to win this one...so he'll be going hammer and tong to win it!

The run in starts now!!

Assume you mean RWC? He's bet the farm on it but if England don't win - and I have my doubts - then he'll be disappointed but he'll be snapped up by another country to coach straight away. When he's gone post RWC2023 if England don't win then the failing as such will be much worse for players and fans than Jones.

At least the new coach will hopefully value the 6n more than Eddie clearly does.

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Post by mountain man Fri 08 Apr 2022, 10:36 am

Given the outcry from fans and pundits about Jones lack of focus regards 6N I'd think new coach will have it drummed into him as a prerequisite that 6N is key and given the coach RFU want is to be English don't think be an issue.

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Post by majesticimperialman Fri 08 Apr 2022, 2:34 pm

With regards the RFU saying it wants an English coach to take over from Eddie Jones is which English coach as (INTERNATIONAL COACHING EXPERIENCE) or will it an experience club coach to take over?
Who do they have in mind?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 08 Apr 2022, 2:41 pm

Steve Hansen.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 08 Apr 2022, 3:10 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
mountain man wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Well Eddie needs to win this one...so he'll be going hammer and tong to win it!

The run in starts now!!

Assume you mean RWC? He's bet the farm on it but if England don't win - and I have my doubts - then he'll be disappointed but he'll be snapped up by another country to coach straight away. When he's gone post RWC2023 if England don't win then the failing as such will be much worse for players and fans than Jones.

At least the new coach will hopefully value the 6n more than Eddie clearly does.

I've never bought that the bad Six Nations are due to not focusing on the tournament at hand. Truth is that last year a lot of previously fantastic players were miles below their best so we were pish. This year a lot of experienced players were injured or phased out and the replacements aren't yet as good as the previous generation were at their peak, so again we were pish.

Nowt to do with succession planning, keeping powder dry, focusing on the RWC, not bothered by the Six Nations or any other punditry nonsense. We were s*** two years in a row because we were s*** two years in a row. Plain and simple IMO.

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Post by Collapse2005 Fri 08 Apr 2022, 5:17 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:With regards the RFU saying it wants an English coach to take over from Eddie Jones is which English coach as (INTERNATIONAL COACHING EXPERIENCE) or will it an experience club coach to take over?
Who do they have in mind?

Maybe Rob Baxter

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Post by mountain man Fri 08 Apr 2022, 5:43 pm

I've never bought that the bad Six Nations are due to not focusing on the tournament at hand. Truth is that last year a lot of previously fantastic players were miles below their best so we were pish. This year a lot of experienced players were injured or phased out and the replacements aren't yet as good as the previous generation were at their peak, so again we were pish.

Nowt to do with succession planning, keeping powder dry, focusing on the RWC, not bothered by the Six Nations or any other punditry nonsense. We were s*** two years in a row because we were s*** two years in a row. Plain and simple IMO.

Last year Jones picked players who were clearly way below their best - Farrell, Billy and Mako V, George, Daly, Youngs,May etc then proceeded with mind numbingly and ineffective endless box kicking tactic.

This year although some key players not available Jones picked players who were either past best or in wrong position or just didn't deserve to be there in first place.
I agree England were frankly rubbish two years in a row but a LOT was due to poor selection and tactics in my opinion.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat 09 Apr 2022, 5:31 am

king_carlos wrote:...I've never bought that the bad Six Nations are due to not focusing on the tournament at hand...
Nor me. However, it's undeniable that England have a good record against Rugby Championship sides under Jones, and one of poorest against Scotland since the mid-80s.

Take this season's Six Nations opener. I can't help feeling if Jones had a match coming up against Australia, with a Won 1, Lost 2, Drawn 1 record, he'd have focused on getting the win above all else. It's not that he took Scotland lightly, more that he's not as conscious of his record against them. Part of that is surely down to seeing Australia, NZ and South Africa as the main obstacles to wiining a World Cup, which they have been to date.

In 2023, though, France look set to be a major challenge, and Ireland have a better record over their last five matches against the All Blacks than England have managed at any point in over 100 years of playing. It matters if we go into a World Cup with losing records against these sides. The Six Nations isn't a tournament which takes care of itself, while you try and work out how to beat SANZAAR. Currently, it's the closest thing anywhere in the rugby calendar to the kind of challenge posed by the World Cup itself.

If you had asked Jones last September, which he most wanted from the season: an Autumn victory over South Africa; a Six Nations title; or a summer series win over Australia, I'm not convinced his top choice would have been the Six Nations title. It would have been mine, not least because the autumn and summer windows could have been used more to look at different combinations.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 09 Apr 2022, 8:00 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:With regards the RFU saying it wants an English coach to take over from Eddie Jones is which English coach as (INTERNATIONAL COACHING EXPERIENCE) or will it an experience club coach to take over?
Who do they have in mind?

Maybe Rob Baxter

I think Baxter has assisted with England on a one off situation previously. Ali Hepher took control of the Saxons in SA iirc. Borthwick and Gustard were both assistant coaches, ditto Cockers who has also coaches in France and Scotland. Connor O'Shea coached Italy and is already on the RFU payroll. Otherwise we're back to Edwards and Farrell.

The left field option there is, is Rowntree who's in line for the Munster top job. Probably not enough time for him to get that and show he's got what it takes in the top job but his CV is otherwise littered with Lions and international roles as well as forwards roles in England and Ireland.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 09 Apr 2022, 8:06 am

mountain man wrote:
I've never bought that the bad Six Nations are due to not focusing on the tournament at hand. Truth is that last year a lot of previously fantastic players were miles below their best so we were pish. This year a lot of experienced players were injured or phased out and the replacements aren't yet as good as the previous generation were at their peak, so again we were pish.

Nowt to do with succession planning, keeping powder dry, focusing on the RWC, not bothered by the Six Nations or any other punditry nonsense. We were s*** two years in a row because we were s*** two years in a row. Plain and simple IMO.

Last year Jones picked players who were clearly way below their best - Farrell, Billy and Mako V, George, Daly, Youngs,May etc then proceeded with mind numbingly and ineffective endless box kicking tactic.

This year although some key players not available Jones picked players who were either past best or in wrong position or just didn't deserve to be there in first place.
I agree England were frankly rubbish two years in a row but a LOT was due to poor selection and tactics in my opinion.

Certainly a bit but did Eddie ask LCD to crap the bed and give Scotland the decisive penalty try or Ewels to get the earliest red card in international rugby history? Two games where individual errors probably cost us the game.

England are a bit transitional at the minute. That should have been started 6N 2021 as opposed to 2022 but it is what it is. We've got a young flyhalf struggling in being given all the keys to the attack with unfamiliar players around him and sometimes an unbalanced midfield (though not for the French game where he just didn't show up). Smith wasn't the only one who struggled and he at least had a good excuse. Eddie has certainly made errors, particularly in 2021 which was a shambles but 2022 has to be owned by some of the players as much as Eddie.

This summer is now very important with Eddie needing to fix down the next batch of succession. We need options at 9 and centre as a matter of urgency and some development of the prop and lock stock would certainly help as well. Dombrandt or Simmonds being further bedded in at 8 would help as well.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat 09 Apr 2022, 8:27 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:The left field option there is, is Rowntree.
A real left field option would be Ben Ryan (yes, I know it won't happen).

The RFU can't stop producing international sevens coaches. On top of Ryan, Joe Lydon, Mike Friday, Simon Amor and Tony Roche, Ben Gollings is Fiji's new Head Coach. The RFU has done nothing with all this development except donate it to other unions. While Roche is the current England sevens coach, all the others left the England set-up to work elsewhere.

Mike Friday - Kenya & USA
Ben Ryan - Fiji
Simon Amor - HK & Japan
Joe Lydon - Wales & Ireland
Ben Gollings - Fiji


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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 09 Apr 2022, 9:35 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:The left field option there is, is Rowntree.
A real left field option would be Ben Ryan (yes, I know it won't happen).

The RFU can't stop producing international sevens coaches. On top of Ryan, Joe Lydon, Mike Friday, Simon Amor and Tony Roche, Ben Gollings is Fiji's new Head Coach. The RFU has done nothing with all this development except donate it to other unions. While Roche is the current England sevens coach, all the others left the England set-up to work elsewhere.

Mike Friday - Kenya & USA
Ben Ryan - Fiji
Simon Amor - HK & Japan
Joe Lydon - Wales & Ireland
Ben Gollings - Fiji

Ben Ryan seems to like media and consultancy work as opposed to actual coaching.

Simon Amor was England's attack coach during the 2021 6N. No surprise he isn't anymore.

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Post by Poorfour Sat 09 Apr 2022, 11:02 am

What else are they going to do but export it, though?

Most if not all of those guys have been successful England 7s head coaches, but everyone moves on from the job eventually. For those who want to stay in coaching, going to coach another nation - especially one with less developed coaching setups - is the obvious next step.

There are only so many media jobs to go round, and only so many coaching jobs. 7s coaching is basically at national level only, so it’s not as if you can go into club coaching when you leave unless you make the step to 15s, and relatively few of them do.
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Post by Rugby Fan Sat 09 Apr 2022, 11:14 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:Ben Ryan seems to like media and consultancy work as opposed to actual coaching.

Simon Amor was England's attack coach during the 2021 6N. No surprise he isn't anymore.
Also, Lydon was England backs coach for two years.

I wouldn't have tipped Lydon or Amor for either role. The point is, we really don't have any clarity to this day on why they were moved into the XVs set-up, and why neither worked out. We scored more tries in the 2021 Six Nations than the 2022 tournament but Gleeson is still there while Amor was kicked out.

Which all means we still have no development pathway for all these sevens coaches the RFU keeps turning out. This leaves us in the daft position of saying "we want English coaches" but leaving it to the Premiership, or other unions, to develop people we are prepared to employ. Meanwhile, we develop a rich seam of sevens coaching talent whch has nowhere to go. There ought to be a way of using some of this personnel at other levels of the longer code, to see if they can contribute, before just launching them at the elite programme, only to bin them.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 09 Apr 2022, 12:09 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Ben Ryan seems to like media and consultancy work as opposed to actual coaching.

Simon Amor was England's attack coach during the 2021 6N. No surprise he isn't anymore.
Also, Lydon was England backs coach for two years.

I wouldn't have tipped Lydon or Amor for either role. The point is, we really don't have any clarity to this day on why they were moved into the XVs set-up, and why neither worked out. We scored more tries in the 2021 Six Nations than the 2022 tournament but Gleeson is still there while Amor was kicked out.

Which all means we still have no development pathway for all these sevens coaches the RFU keeps turning out. This leaves us in the daft position of saying "we want English coaches" but leaving it to the Premiership, or other unions, to develop people we are prepared to employ. Meanwhile, we develop a rich seam of sevens coaching talent whch has nowhere to go. There ought to be a way of using some of this personnel at other levels of the longer code, to see if they can contribute, before just launching them at the elite programme, only to bin them.
Agree. And this makes the point about a pathway. Like you guys, I don't see a coaching pathway to either Premiership jobs or positions with England.

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Post by nlpnlp Sun 10 Apr 2022, 6:17 pm

I am not sure any coach coming into the current setup is going to prosper working under Eddie - it seems to be his way or the highway. Add in his preoccupation with kicking the ball away as much as possible, it is no wonder attack coaches are struggling. Other countries seem to have far more stable coaching teams, rather than the constant churn that England have. The RFU seem to have gone all in with Eddie, so I don't see anything changing until after next year's world cup. Unfortunately, I don't have much faith in the RFU getting the next appointment right.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 10 Apr 2022, 9:42 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:Ben Ryan seems to like media and consultancy work as opposed to actual coaching.

Simon Amor was England's attack coach during the 2021 6N. No surprise he isn't anymore.
Also, Lydon was England backs coach for two years.

I wouldn't have tipped Lydon or Amor for either role. The point is, we really don't have any clarity to this day on why they were moved into the XVs set-up, and why neither worked out. We scored more tries in the 2021 Six Nations than the 2022 tournament but Gleeson is still there while Amor was kicked out.

Gleeson might not last until the AIs if he does pick things up for the summer.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 10 Apr 2022, 10:33 pm

nlpnlp wrote:I am not sure any coach coming into the current setup is going to prosper working under Eddie - it seems to be his way or the highway.  Add in his preoccupation with kicking the ball away as much as possible, it is no wonder attack coaches are struggling.  Other countries seem to have far more stable coaching teams, rather than the constant churn that England have.  The RFU seem to have gone all in with Eddie, so I don't see anything changing until after next year's world cup.  Unfortunately, I don't have much faith in the RFU getting the next appointment right.
Who should get it in your opinion?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 11 Apr 2022, 11:06 am

Dean Richards has earned the role.....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 11 Apr 2022, 12:44 pm

What a thoughtful and generous comment Geordie.

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Post by Irish Londoner Tue 12 Apr 2022, 9:36 am

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/apr/11/mike-brown-reveals-his-take-on-row-at-end-of-england-career-before-2019-world-cup

Some thoughts by Mike Brown on EJ's managerial approach...

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Post by Collapse2005 Tue 12 Apr 2022, 10:49 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:With regards the RFU saying it wants an English coach to take over from Eddie Jones is which English coach as (INTERNATIONAL COACHING EXPERIENCE) or will it an experience club coach to take over?
Who do they have in mind?

Maybe Rob Baxter

I think Baxter has assisted with England on a one off situation previously. Ali Hepher took control of the Saxons in SA iirc. Borthwick and Gustard were both assistant coaches, ditto Cockers who has also coaches in France and Scotland. Connor O'Shea coached Italy and is already on the RFU payroll. Otherwise we're back to Edwards and Farrell.

The left field option there is, is Rowntree who's in line for the Munster top job. Probably not enough time for him to get that and show he's got what it takes in the top job but his CV is otherwise littered with Lions and international roles as well as forwards roles in England and Ireland.

Roundtree has been confirmed as Munster coach so wont be him.

Think England really should consider Pat Lam, ok Bristol arent going great now but they have had good campaigns and so have Connacht under Lam and his style would definitely lead to many more England tries.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 12 Apr 2022, 10:55 am

Rowntree would never have been in contention anyway.

Lam has zero chance of becoming England coach. He's on a huge, multiple year contract at Bristol and has struggled immensely this season. His stock has really fallen over the last year or so......oh and I don't think he he's English.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Apr 2022, 1:12 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:With regards the RFU saying it wants an English coach to take over from Eddie Jones is which English coach as (INTERNATIONAL COACHING EXPERIENCE) or will it an experience club coach to take over?
Who do they have in mind?

Maybe Rob Baxter

I think Baxter has assisted with England on a one off situation previously. Ali Hepher took control of the Saxons in SA iirc. Borthwick and Gustard were both assistant coaches, ditto Cockers who has also coaches in France and Scotland. Connor O'Shea coached Italy and is already on the RFU payroll. Otherwise we're back to Edwards and Farrell.

The left field option there is, is Rowntree who's in line for the Munster top job. Probably not enough time for him to get that and show he's got what it takes in the top job but his CV is otherwise littered with Lions and international roles as well as forwards roles in England and Ireland.

Roundtree has been confirmed as Munster coach so wont be him.

Think England really should consider Pat Lam, ok Bristol arent going great now but they have had good campaigns and so have Connacht under Lam and his style would definitely lead to many more England tries.
When he had better players last year it certainly helped him and he brought the best out of them.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 12 Apr 2022, 1:26 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:With regards the RFU saying it wants an English coach to take over from Eddie Jones is which English coach as (INTERNATIONAL COACHING EXPERIENCE) or will it an experience club coach to take over?
Who do they have in mind?

Maybe Rob Baxter

I think Baxter has assisted with England on a one off situation previously. Ali Hepher took control of the Saxons in SA iirc. Borthwick and Gustard were both assistant coaches, ditto Cockers who has also coaches in France and Scotland. Connor O'Shea coached Italy and is already on the RFU payroll. Otherwise we're back to Edwards and Farrell.

The left field option there is, is Rowntree who's in line for the Munster top job. Probably not enough time for him to get that and show he's got what it takes in the top job but his CV is otherwise littered with Lions and international roles as well as forwards roles in England and Ireland.

Roundtree has been confirmed as Munster coach so wont be him.

Think England really should consider Pat Lam, ok Bristol arent going great now but they have had good campaigns and so have Connacht under Lam and his style would definitely lead to many more England tries.
When he had better players last year it certainly helped him and he brought the best out of them.

Problem with Lam is that when his team's are effective it's built around his attacking structure. I'm not sure he could impart that different and demanding attack under a short space of time and within the limits of national based selection.

The fact he's not English and has Sgt says on a massive contract at Bristol pretty kill off any suggestion there.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Apr 2022, 2:00 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:With regards the RFU saying it wants an English coach to take over from Eddie Jones is which English coach as (INTERNATIONAL COACHING EXPERIENCE) or will it an experience club coach to take over?
Who do they have in mind?

Maybe Rob Baxter

I think Baxter has assisted with England on a one off situation previously. Ali Hepher took control of the Saxons in SA iirc. Borthwick and Gustard were both assistant coaches, ditto Cockers who has also coaches in France and Scotland. Connor O'Shea coached Italy and is already on the RFU payroll. Otherwise we're back to Edwards and Farrell.

The left field option there is, is Rowntree who's in line for the Munster top job. Probably not enough time for him to get that and show he's got what it takes in the top job but his CV is otherwise littered with Lions and international roles as well as forwards roles in England and Ireland.

Roundtree has been confirmed as Munster coach so wont be him.

Think England really should consider Pat Lam, ok Bristol arent going great now but they have had good campaigns and so have Connacht under Lam and his style would definitely lead to many more England tries.
When he had better players last year it certainly helped him and he brought the best out of them.

Problem with Lam is that when his team's are effective it's built around his attacking structure. I'm not sure he could impart that different and demanding attack under a short space of time and within the limits of national based selection.

The fact he's not English and has Sgt says on a massive contract at Bristol pretty kill off any suggestion there.
Yeah, back to the stupid demands placed by the rfu. If baxter and Borthwick do both not apply or turn it down tho leaves them adrift. Lams clearly a very good coach and I don't buy that national teams have to be stodgy. England haven't been until the world Cup. I think England can be good to watch again.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 12 Apr 2022, 7:00 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:With regards the RFU saying it wants an English coach to take over from Eddie Jones is which English coach as (INTERNATIONAL COACHING EXPERIENCE) or will it an experience club coach to take over?
Who do they have in mind?

Maybe Rob Baxter

I think Baxter has assisted with England on a one off situation previously. Ali Hepher took control of the Saxons in SA iirc. Borthwick and Gustard were both assistant coaches, ditto Cockers who has also coaches in France and Scotland. Connor O'Shea coached Italy and is already on the RFU payroll. Otherwise we're back to Edwards and Farrell.

The left field option there is, is Rowntree who's in line for the Munster top job. Probably not enough time for him to get that and show he's got what it takes in the top job but his CV is otherwise littered with Lions and international roles as well as forwards roles in England and Ireland.

Roundtree has been confirmed as Munster coach so wont be him.

Think England really should consider Pat Lam, ok Bristol arent going great now but they have had good campaigns and so have Connacht under Lam and his style would definitely lead to many more England tries.
When he had better players last year it certainly helped him and he brought the best out of them.

Problem with Lam is that when his team's are effective it's built around his attacking structure. I'm not sure he could impart that different and demanding attack under a short space of time and within the limits of national based selection.

The fact he's not English and has Sgt says on a massive contract at Bristol pretty kill off any suggestion there.
Yeah, back to the stupid demands placed by the rfu. If baxter and Borthwick do both not apply or turn it down tho leaves them adrift. Lams clearly a very good coach and I don't buy that national teams have to be stodgy. England haven't been until the world Cup. I think England can be good to watch again.

If either Baxter or Borthwick are brought in I'd expect brutal efficiency more than free flowing rugby. Borthwick will quite happily go to heavy kicking and maul based rugby if those are the tactics required. Lam is the opposite, he builds a squad around players that have the handling skills to play his offload heavy attacking game. The physical demands on the players and support lines Lam wants would be difficult to develop in the players over a short period of time, took him a while to get Bristol playing that way. Lam would be an interesting experiment just one I'd like to see another nation risk first.

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Post by Rugby Fan Wed 13 Apr 2022, 9:01 am

While all the focus is on the names, there ought to be just as much, perhaps more, on the overall set-up. There ought to be clarity on reporting lines, and how much overall authority a head coach should have.

Take all the discussion about Shaun Edwards, for instance. What if the RFU had wanted to hire him but Jones didn't want him? (That isn't what happened, as far as I know). Should it always be down to the coach to decide who is in his coaching team, or should the RFU retain discretion to recruit someone? Imagine, for instance, if Wayne Smith suddenly changes his mind about working with Engand, or Paul Stridgeon becomes available.

Clubs often have Director of Rugby role, and a Head Coach role, and the man making all the key decisions could have either title. Martin Johnson had no coaching experience, so needed good coaches around him (Smith, Wells and Ford probably didnt fit that bill). Conversely, Lancaster wished he had done more coaching, and needed an adminstrator. Something like the difference between the Head Lions coach and tour manager. Jones works more than humanly advisable, and does both.

When choosing the next man, the RFU ought to have a clear idea of what resources it will make available to ensure he can do the job in the way which suits his talent, and England's goals, best.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 13 Apr 2022, 1:03 pm

Fissler reporting a change of Roles for Deano at the end of the season....

Maybe Jones has reached out....

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Post by Rugby Fan Wed 13 Apr 2022, 1:27 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Fissler reporting a change of Roles for Deano at the end of the season....

Maybe Jones has reached out....

I sometimes wonder how it would have gone for England and Dean Richards if, instead of promoting Ashton, the RFU had reached out to Richards to take over from Andy Robinson. Or to replace Ashton, rather than Martin Johnson.

Leicester, Quins and Newcastle supporters will surely have more informed views. It just seemed at the time, though, that Richards was the kind of heavyweight figure the RFU was looking for, after the skittishness and unsteadiness which followed Woodward. He would have been like Martin Johnson except with coaching experience, and more generational distance from the playing group at the time. None of that was remotely possible after bloodgate.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 13 Apr 2022, 1:48 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Fissler reporting a change of Roles for Deano at the end of the season....

Maybe Jones has reached out....

More likely he's going to oversee rugby operations from board level. Steve Diamond tried to do something similar at Sale.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 13 Apr 2022, 1:52 pm

Yeah probably Sam, cant see him moving on.

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Post by king_carlos Wed 13 Apr 2022, 3:14 pm

Interestingly Lancaster's whole coaching staff are now in prominent Irish coaching jobs:

Lancaster - Leinster 'senior coach'
Farrell - Ireland head coach
Catt - Ireland attack coach
Rowntree - Munster head coach

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Post by Collapse2005 Wed 13 Apr 2022, 3:17 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Fissler reporting a change of Roles for Deano at the end of the season....

Maybe Jones has reached out....

I sometimes wonder how it would have gone for England and Dean Richards if, instead of promoting Ashton, the RFU had reached out to Richards to take over from Andy Robinson. Or to replace Ashton, rather than Martin Johnson.

Leicester, Quins and Newcastle supporters will surely have more informed views. It just seemed at the time, though, that Richards was the kind of heavyweight figure the RFU was looking for, after the skittishness and unsteadiness which followed Woodward. He would have been like Martin Johnson except with coaching experience, and more generational distance from the playing group at the time. None of that was remotely possible after bloodgate.

Maybe England dodged a bullet as bloodgate would have had a much bigger impact if it was with the England team.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 13 Apr 2022, 5:13 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Fissler reporting a change of Roles for Deano at the end of the season....

Maybe Jones has reached out....

I sometimes wonder how it would have gone for England and Dean Richards if, instead of promoting Ashton, the RFU had reached out to Richards to take over from Andy Robinson. Or to replace Ashton, rather than Martin Johnson.

Leicester, Quins and Newcastle supporters will surely have more informed views. It just seemed at the time, though, that Richards was the kind of heavyweight figure the RFU was looking for, after the skittishness and unsteadiness which followed Woodward. He would have been like Martin Johnson except with coaching experience, and more generational distance from the playing group at the time. None of that was remotely possible after bloodgate.

Maybe England dodged a bullet as bloodgate would have had a much bigger impact if it was with the England team.
I agree, and in hindsight it is almost incomprehensible someone would try something like that. It's also amazing he can still find employment in Rugby. And given, shall we say, his mixed results in Newcastle, I can't see him near any England or RFU position.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 14 Apr 2022, 6:02 am

king_carlos wrote:Interestingly Lancaster's whole coaching staff are now in prominent Irish coaching jobs:

Lancaster - Leinster 'senior coach'
Farrell - Ireland head coach
Catt - Ireland attack coach
Rowntree - Munster head coach

An English coach not being mentioned............Dan McFarland.

I personally wouldn't fancy any of the 4 listed but McFarland has done a stellar job with Ulster, he might be worth a closer look.

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Post by mountain man Thu 14 Apr 2022, 8:23 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Interestingly Lancaster's whole coaching staff are now in prominent Irish coaching jobs:

Lancaster - Leinster 'senior coach'
Farrell - Ireland head coach
Catt - Ireland attack coach
Rowntree - Munster head coach

An English coach not being mentioned............Dan McFarland.

I personally wouldn't fancy any of the 4 listed but McFarland has done a stellar job with Ulster, he might be worth a closer look.

He was guest on latest Rugby Union weekly podcast on BBC. Didn't exactly rule himself out of Eng job but made all right noises about being happy where he is blah blah. However, he did say in future would like to coach Int team so ya never know.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 14 Apr 2022, 8:45 am

McFarland has coached Ireland under 20s, Emerging Ireland and Ireland Wolfhounds at points earlier in his coaching career. He'd be a good left field shout, not someone with baggage from the England game, they'd be no chance of anyone crying favourites etc.

I've mentioned on the thread a few times that those wanting a big shift away from Eddie might be disappointed by the Borthwick game plan. However, maybe this interview post the Clermont game at the weekend might show why coaches with such similar game plans are getting different results. 

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/trust-them-steve-borthwick-wisdom-6947390

Apologies for the website.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 14 Apr 2022, 9:13 am

It's Borthwick's job if he wants it though.  I can't see the RFU looking beyond him at present. And the flip side is he would need to offer England a style of play that is better to watch and more successful than Jones over the last 2 years. If he did come in and try to simply play to Leicester's style as it then it wouldn't be successful. I think he's a coach though who will use the players available in the style that suits.

Baxter similarly plays very stodgy rugby a lot of the time. Having a better set of players available than either have currently would bring pressure though.

I like the quotes Sam on player power, something that comes up more and more given the Harlequins situation too.


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Thu 14 Apr 2022, 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 14 Apr 2022, 9:27 am

Unsurprisingly a few articles regarding Mercer coming out after his display last weekend. Contracted up to 23 in France but has said he's aiming for a recall for England. Unlikely that he's going to move in the summer but if he were to sign for an English club for the season after the WC he could well be a bolter of sorts for the tournament.

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Post by mountain man Thu 14 Apr 2022, 10:02 am

Is Mercer though more in the Sam Simmonds mode of lightweight for an 8 but quick, dynamic etc. So, not a point of difference for Jones even if he was eligible? Jones took an age to give Simmonds another cap, seeing as Mercer went to France as he knew Jones wasn't going to pick him then his only hope of more Eng caps are post Jones I'd think. Jones does appear to bear grudges, ask D Care esq.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 14 Apr 2022, 10:06 am

Well he's not Vunipola. But I could see him going instead of Simmonds. Said on another thread, don't get this point of difference thing.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 14 Apr 2022, 10:10 am

mountain man wrote:Is Mercer though more in the Sam Simmonds mode of lightweight for an 8 but quick, dynamic etc. So, not a point of difference for Jones even if he was eligible? Jones took an age to give Simmonds another cap, seeing as Mercer went to France as he knew Jones wasn't going to pick him then his only hope of more Eng caps are post Jones I'd think. Jones does appear to bear grudges, ask D Care esq.

I was listening to a podcast and they were suggesting Mercer's work rate in defence and not his heavy traffic ball carrying was perhaps why Eddie moved on from him. It's not something I've really noticed, but he doesn't really get high figures on that side.

On Borthwick.....he's certainly building more and more of a case each week to be the next England coach. The Clermont win was an extremely impressive notch on his belt.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 14 Apr 2022, 10:21 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well he's not Vunipola. But I could see him going instead of Simmonds. Said on another thread, don't get this point of difference thing.

Does Mercer offer anything that Simmonds doesnt?

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