Glasgow and Edinburgh 28 and Counting - The banter goes on!

First topic message reminder :

28 and counting, where do we get the energy!

Another Glasgow re-signing coming up this afternoon, following on from the White Rhino, the animal theme is hinted at again. Who could that be?

Ancient history:

https://www.606v2.com/t70348p1000-glasgow-and-edinburgh-unceasing-banter-thread-27#4033843

How often would you be able to travel back to see them?
Likewise, would it be feasible for them to travel to visit you regularly/easily?
Will you be harvesting wheat in the Donbas region?

I am about to fly up to Inverness at short notice; my brother called yesterday to say that the mother is in hospital and unlikely to come out and I should get up there. Sometimes 500 hundred miles is a very, very long way to travel.

That's a difficult one GC and it is rarely a good idea to give people advice about how to live their lives. We all have to mske complicated decisions from time to time concernig our famillies.

My own view, for what it is worth, is that thinking to far ahead is not always a good thing in life. Perhaps because I work in health care and have often witnessed first hand the tragedy that can befall people when their health lets them down that, i like to enjoy familly life in the moment. Trade offs for the future may or may not work out, we just will never know that.

It is not just health either. I worked a lot when my kids were younger and at times might as well have been away from home. I did miss out on stuff with them, even though i tried my best. I can't say I regret it, as it had to be done but i do hope my own kids if they are ever in the ssme situation, manage to get a better balance than maybe I did.

More questions than answers i guess.

Good luck with your dilemma Geoege.

jimbopip wrote:How often would you be able to travel back to see them?
Likewise, would it be feasible for them to travel to visit you regularly/easily?
Will you be harvesting wheat in the Donbas region?

I am about to fly up to Inverness at short notice; my brother called yesterday to say that the mother is in hospital and unlikely to come out and I should get up there. Sometimes 500 hundred miles is a very, very long way to travel.

Sorry to hear that Jim. Having spent the first part of this year running back and forward to Italy as my mother in law reached the end of her life I agree that 500 ( or 800 for us) is a long way.

Scots have always travelled, my patents left theirs behind to move down south and other familly members went even further afield. I am lucky my own kids all still live nearby. As much as i do want them to live their own lives, i do like it that way.

As ever Gee gets to the heart of it quickly and succinctly. He should have been a surgeon, but never had the Latin as Harold Steptoe once said.

Be honest GC, you've already made your mind up even if you don't know it consciously.

Here goes: I absolutely forbid you to take this job.
If you feel relieved and think you've dodged a bullet then you never wanted it. If you feel angry and disappointed then you really wanted it.
Once you know what you really want, what you really really want. Then you can start making it work...not just for you but for the rest of the family too.

BigGee wrote:

jimbopip wrote:How often would you be able to travel back to see them?
Likewise, would it be feasible for them to travel to visit you regularly/easily?
Will you be harvesting wheat in the Donbas region?

I am about to fly up to Inverness at short notice; my brother called yesterday to say that the mother is in hospital and unlikely to come out and I should get up there. Sometimes 500 hundred miles is a very, very long way to travel.

Sorry to hear that Jim. Having spent the first part of this year running back and forward to Italy as my mother in law reached the end of her life I agree that 500 ( or 800 for us) is a long way.

Scots have always travelled, my patents left theirs behind to move down south and other familly members went even further afield. I am lucky my own kids all still live nearby. As much as i do want them to live their own lives, i do like it that way.

Pretty much my own situation. It really is like something out of the Twilight Zone how our life experiences mirror each other in so many ways yet we are very different people.

From the phrasing of how you've asked the question GC it seems like you want to do it, you just need a bit of validation that it's the right thing to do (completely understandable)

Having been apart from family for over 2 years in Aus due to Covid I can attest that is a really feckin long time, but your situation sounds different in that there will be regular-ish visits in that time. We've found that home sickness is a bit easier when you know there is an 'out' - i.e. you have flights booked home, or someone to come visit you.

Some considerations from me noting how everyone has different priorities and views on life (you don't need to reply or anything):

- timezone - will you be living a big chunk of your waking life when family is asleep and vice versa? That's a blessing when you can wake up to see how much Scotland lost by (look at me making this rugby relevent!) But can add to the sense of distance if your family are living their life while you're asleep

- you say 2-3 years, could this end up.4-5 'just one more year' type thing?

- putting aside your family's needs for a minute, how do you think this will affect your own mental health? The isolation, work stress (I'm assuming) combined with massive guilt of leaving your family on their own will be a heavy burden. Without being too bleak, what kind of person will you be at the end of this...

Some deliberately difficult questions, because if you can answer those it'll maybe go a long way to help decide  

jimbopip wrote:How often would you be able to travel back to see them?
Likewise, would it be feasible for them to travel to visit you regularly/easily?
Will you be harvesting wheat in the Donbas region?

I am about to fly up to Inverness at short notice; my brother called yesterday to say that the mother is in hospital and unlikely to come out and I should get up there. Sometimes 500 hundred miles is a very, very long way to travel.

Really sorry to hear that Jimbo

I shall put on my serious hat for now.

Life choices, in my unqualified opinion, should be based on what makes you happy.

If moving away for a long time makes you happy now or in the future, you do it.

Parents, siblings, etc will also want you to be happy so will understand any decisions that you make that will make you or your kids happy.

The key though is what will make you happy? Sometimes a lifestyle, money, early retirement won’t make you as happy as your family. Only you can answer that question, then you will have your answer.

Don’t live life by what may be as what may be may not come. Don’t live life regretting what you didn’t do either.

As master yoda once said. Balance is the key

Whilst GC is pondering a major life choice, back to the real major topic at hand - wtf is going on at Glasgow? Very little news, and very little hard and fast gossip from the journos which is also rare.

We thought it would be someone from the Scotland coaching team but surely with the summer tour well past it would have been announced.

Maybe Dodson had so much foresight he could see the demise of the ABs and has Plumbtree lined up??

RDW wrote:Whilst GC is pondering a major life choice, back to the real major topic at hand - wtf is going on at Glasgow? Very little news, and very little hard and fast gossip from the journos which is also rare.

We thought it would be someone from the Scotland coaching team but surely with the summer tour well past it would have been announced.

Maybe Dodson had so much foresight he could see the demise of the ABs and has Plumbtree lined up??

Either he or Brad Moar, who did pretty well at the Scarlets, would definitely be of interest, just depends on the timing I guess, have they appointed someone else already or would either of those 2 be happy to jump straight back into another job after what has been a pretty bruising experience down in NZ recently!

Maybe Dodson has seen the writing on the wall.

All this talk of a 3rd pro team and he’s going the other direction. 1 pro team

Take the good players fro Glasgow, Darge, Rufus, Cummings and Zander, and move them to Edinburgh. The rest can go to the super 6

Then we can all get round the one and only proper rugby team in Scotland.

That's a surprising amount of empathy and common sense coming from you lot.

Many thanks.

George Carlin wrote:That's a surprising amount of empathy and common sense coming from you lot.

Many thanks.

Ahhhh sorry.

Did we mention yer a scrotum?

There. Back to normal

Mark Palmer, who has better contacts than most within the SRU, suggesting that Franco Smith is the prime candidate to take over at Scotstoun now.

Probably one of the more realistic names that have been chucked about, he is currently high performance director for Italian Rugby. The delay might be accounted for by the negotiations to get him out of that role.

Whilst not the most exciting of appointments, certainly not the worst either, he certainly had the Cheetahs playing some decent stuff when he was with them. Anyone who can steady the ship atm would be a good appointment in my mind.

Neither particularly exciting, nor as bad as some of the names bandied about - probably a fair reflection of where Glasgow are as a club just now.

Lets just get him in post, any longer and we will be playing catch up before a game has been played.

Tough start for Edinburgh, getting a walloping from the new and improved Dragons RFC first up (on their home patch no less).

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/they-fixed-siobhan-s-broken-bones-but-turned-their-back-on-her-broken-brain-n668rkwlt?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1659202251

Really tough read on the death of woman's player Siobhan Cattigan, with her family telling what actually happened. This is rage inducing. Of all the controversies they SRU have had in recent years this is by far the worst - there's a real negligence case here, but I can't imagine the family have the emotional energy or finances to fight it. They have joined the large brain injury lawsuit but who knows where that will go.

Some people come out looking incredibly bad - Bryan Easson, the team doctor and even Rachel Malcolm - who is otherwise incredibly well regarded - have serious questions to answer here.

Reading about the SRU's lack of communication after her death and the cloak and dagger, gaslighting and outright lies about the funeral arrangements is just heartbreaking. Covid rules would have contributed but why did they act like that? Why did they limit the woman's team's memorial to her as much as possible?

A really sad story and it's remarkable that in this day and age she could be treated so badly after a traumatic injury.

Yes, i read that as well and it sounds awful.

I hope the SRU do a ptoper investigation into it and some responsibility is taken.

Not that confident it will  happen though unfortunately

Wow, reading that made me incredibly angry. Frankly I hope that the many people at the SRU who failed in their duty of care are held accountable.

Corporate culture starts at the top, and this is yet another example of the culture that Dodson has created being utterly rotten to the core and not fit for purpose. The man is toxic and the sooner he’s out the door the better.

For the family to have had no contact from the sru afterwards, yet the SRU released a statement at the time saying specialist support will be given to the family, is Bojo government levels of contempt. And that's about as bad as it gets these days!

Of course there's two sides to every story but surely the SRU can't just try and sweep this under the carpet or release another generic statement. There's a lot of anger in the Scottish rugby community about this.

You're right Llama that all these dramas at the SRU very much paint a picture of an HBO political TV series!

SRU issue a statement very legally worded, but saying they don't recognise some of the details of the article.

It will need someone independent or some legal action to get to the bottom of this!

In other news, apparently SRU and Franco smith have agreed for him to become the new Glasgow coach. They are now arguing about money as he is still under contract in Italy for the next year.

Italy clearly feel they hold the cards here (which they do!)

Let's see how this one pans out, hopefully we will get a conclusion soon.

Where is the statement? I can't see it on Twitter (probably deliberate)

https://twitter.com/thepenGW/status/1553781730171125761


Here it is on the Pen's feed

Not quite as bland a response as I expected but not much better.

Also taking the cowards way out by not putting it on social media themselves, knowing the inevitable pile on which would happen!

It's not even published on the news section of the website!

Well the SRU are now the latest Union to have a class action lawsuit against them, with at least 12 former Scotland players suing the SRU.

Very much becoming crisis territory for the SRU.

It's shocking because I think looking at the generation of players that are heavily affected by CTE/early onset dementia (early pro players from later 90s and 00s) there's an acceptance in the rugby community that yeh, their issues are real and we can all imagine the transition from amateur to pro was very rough - the idea of old school coaches yelling at professionals to "man up" after suffering from a concussion is very easy to visualise (think Andy Robinson or anyone of that ilk). I'm of the opinion that any player from this era who was told to man up or get on with it is due compensation.

Advances in research in to CTE and former players turned coaches has led to less contact in training, longer stand downs, managing players correctly etc. This is good, progressive and plaudits should be given to those who implement these standards.

So whats shocking to me is that the standards that we accept were entirely wrong in the 90s/00s are still around in the semi-pro to pro game. The revelations about Siobhan Cattigan are horrifying and lay waste to any claim the SRU had about being ahead of the rest of the game. We have a wonderful sport that carries an inherent risk but what happened to Cattigan is player mismanagement at best, manslaughter at worst.

Even at amateur level the guys know that if they get a head knock they walk off the pitch immediately and go to A&E. None of us want head issues later in life so why risk it? For the semi pro or pro game its inevitably money and status. Coaches putting the win ahead of the individual is disgusting and its entirely money and results driven.

I hope that whatever "independent" investigation is undertaken by the SRU they interview all of her team mates and friends. They will be the ones that provide the truth on Cattigans mental degradation and what happened in that match.

I do wonder what the player reaction will be to all this. I'm sure a lot of anger towards management, not least because they were denied access to the funeral of their friend when they were entirely welcome to be there. They'll know what the coaching and medical culture was at the time and will most likely know if there really was negligence. How able will they be to speak out though? Probably not very.

I'm sure there will be a lot of guilt too from some of them - could they have done more? Could they have spoken up more? Were they culpable in this culture? It's definitely harsh for the players to shoulder much blame for this given it's a significant failing in management, but they are also human beings and these feelings will be natural.

It's the SRU AGM next week and there's already a lot of social media chat that those that attend need to make it as uncomfortable as possible for those in charge. Knowing the SRU they'll just push it back a month until things calm down...

One player I thought of was David Denton. He took some real bad knocks and carried on playing longer than most probably would now. I hope he’s doing better now he’s out of the game.

Rory Lamont another.

Their complication will be that they left the SRU before the end of their careers.

Denton got his final knocks at bath, worcester and leicster, his complaints will be relevant if he was forced to play on whilst playing at Edinburgh or Scotland (various coaches at Edinburgh and Robinson at Scotland)... I still suspect with Robson at Scotland level none of the players will have been forced to play on.

Rory Lamont clearly got asked to play through injuries and didn't seem like he left scottish rugby on good terms.

A key player in all this is Robson. He's well respected across both Scottish rugby and the wider rugby community, has been the scottish mens chief doctor for 2-3 decades so will have seen it all. Whats hard to see is Dr Robson not looking after the players properly so if he comes out and says "my advice was overruled by coaches" there could be apocalyptic scenes at the SRU.

It's a good point on Dr Robson - as the man ultimately response for all things medical at the SRU he will also be under a lot of scrutiny.

How to handle the concussion issues is an awful task, particularly when different employers engaged in different actions. In Cattigan's case though, it sounds like she was failed by whatever system was in place in the woman's game. Not sure on if Dr Robson was involved closely on that side but it certainly does not look great.

It is time for Dodson to go. He has done an excellent job in many ways when it comes to Scotland in getting the finances in check, building Glasgow, developing the Super Six and finally getting Edinburgh a new stadium. It is clear though senior management needs a refresh and a change of direction. There is something toxic going on at management level and that usually happens when people develop vested interests. Who that is...not sure it can be someone from the world of rugby

https://www.glasgowwarriors.org/news/head-coach?s=08

Finally!

Hazel Sapling wrote:How to handle the concussion issues is an awful task, particularly when different employers engaged in different actions. In Cattigan's case though, it sounds like she was failed by whatever system was in place in the woman's game. Not sure on if Dr Robson was involved closely on that side but it certainly does not look great.

It is time for Dodson to go. He has done an excellent job in many ways when it comes to Scotland in getting the finances in check, building Glasgow, developing the Super Six and finally getting Edinburgh a new stadium. It is clear though senior management needs a refresh and a change of direction. There is something toxic going on at management level and that usually happens when people develop vested interests. Who that is...not sure it can be someone from the world of rugby

I've been told that physios are moving out of the SRU because they're paid less than the NHS, which really says a lot about the level of investment in player wellbeing (ie not very much!)

RDW wrote:https://www.glasgowwarriors.org/news/head-coach?s=08

Finally!

Let's see how he goes.

A coach with a bit of pedigree even if not from the Dave Rennie drawer.


I don't think we were going to get anyone better than him atm

He has got 2 years to mske an impression, which feels about right considering a reasonable amount of squad rebuilding has already been done.

So! Fes's dream of a Fascist Scotland is one step closer to fruition.  Generallismo Franco has seized control  of the west of Scotland. Does this mean I have to resign my membership of the International Brigade? Will Batman, being a dissident to the end, change his nom de guerre to La Passionara? Has Flounder ever swum under Wigan Pier?

Will Flounder understand any of the references?

I had an honorary uncle. My Grandads best pal, who went to fight in the international brigade.

He was an absolute character, lived in Stirling and gsve us a very embelished tour of the castle and monument when we were kids.

Donated his body to medical science when he died, being, as he proudly told everyone, the only way he would ever get to university!

You can only imagine the calibre of people who went off and fought in that conflict if he was an example.

Saw that HDC has left Exeter for a three year deal with Benetton. Probably a better move for him. Perhaps a club he’ll finally stick with after years of jumping around. Must have been a fun experience for him playing for so many sides during his career.

Every Glasgow fans favourite Italian policeman, Simone Favaro, gives a big thumbs up to the appointment of Franco Smith into the Glasgow coaching role in an interview with Mark Palmer. That will hopefully appease the Glasgow warriors Forum, who love him!



Simone Favaro, the Glasgow Warriors cult hero, has backed Franco Smith to have a similar impact at Scotstoun as that delivered by Gregor Townsend, the man who oversaw a first and so far only league title at the club in 2015.

Favaro, the 36-cap former Italy flanker, arrived in Scotland that summer having starred for Smith’s Benetton Treviso side in their early seasons in the Pro12. The now 33-year-old only spent two campaigns with Glasgow, but became a fans’ favourite thanks to his all-action style and relentless workrate.

Reflecting on the news that his old mentor has been appointed to succeed Danny Wilson as Warriors head coach, a move revealed in these pages last Thursday, Favaro told The Times: “To my mind, it’s a case of right man, right place right time — Franco is the closest thing to Gregor Townsend that I have ever experienced in rugby.

“In terms of character and approach and the style of rugby they favour, they are very, very alike. Gregor will be very happy with this appointment, because, for Scotland, Franco will give him and develop the type of player he likes.

“Like Gregor grew and developed Glasgow, Franco grew and developed Treviso, making some talented young prospects into proper outstanding players. If the national team [Favaro played in] did well, always being competitive in the Six Nations and beating South Africa [in 2016], a big part of it was the work Franco did with Treviso.

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“He wants his teams to dominate. Where they can’t get to via feet, inches and pounds, they get to with hard work, a strong mentality and aggression. Like Gregor, he wants a really fast game, but he also puts a huge amount of study into the opposition. The two of them have a pathological obsession with rugby.

“It wasn’t hard for me to adjust to Glasgow, in terms of the level and the style, precisely because I came from an environment that was very, very similar. Franco, like Gregor, pushes players to the maximum. They have to go beyond their own limits.

“At this moment, Glasgow need someone who can develop players. They spent many years developing guys like [Finn] Russell, [Stuart] Hogg, [Jonny] Gray, and now they need another guy who is a proven developer of talent, because if we’re talking about finance, you can’t compete with the French market, the English market, so you need to do what Glasgow did over many years — and I arrived at the tail end of. It’s about continual growth over many years in the whole culture of the club. That’s what Franco did with Benetton, and in Glasgow he will have a bigger pool of talent at his disposal. I think he can and will do really, really well.”

It was Smith who brought Favaro back to his native Treviso in 2012 after he spent his first couple of seasons as a professional with the now defunct Aironi. Favaro, who is now a police officer in Florence where he is about to begin forensics training, was immediately taken with the mix of influences in Smith’s approach. Born and raised in South Africa, the 50-year-old coach had enjoyed considerable success as a Treviso player, winning two Eccellenza titles and an Italian Cup before claiming another two league flags as coach.

“As a South African, he understands the importance of aggression and of imposing yourself physically, but he also took lots from the European game,” Favaro recalled. “The movement, the fluidity, the desire to play with pace, he took that from his playing days with Benetton. It’s a great mix that makes him very interesting as a coach.

“When I was with Aironi, I knew all the Benetton boys and it was a period in which they had got strong and really began to develop. Just about all their back-rows were in the national team set-up as well.

“I asked myself, why is there this gap between Aironi, who had players like Fabio Ongaro and Marco Bortolami, and Treviso who have boys who aren’t as experienced, don’t have the same CV as the guys from Aironi, but were managing to do much better.

“When Benetton called me and said, ‘it’s time for you to come home’, I got to know Franco and understood straight away that he was the difference maker. He never looks at names or reputations. When I arrived I had guys like[Robert] Barbieri and [Alessandro] Zanni in front of me, really strong and experienced internationals. But Franco looks closely at your character: reputations don’t interest him.”

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Favaro is “not at all surprised” that Smith has opted to swap his role as the Italian federation’s head of high performance for being back out on the grass.

“Franco is not a politician, he’s a rugby man,” he said. “I remember one of the phrases that he said in one of the first meetings. He said, ‘you fight fire with fire, it’s the only way. You need to work harder, do more, be more competitive than the opposition’.

“We took that onto the field every day, just as Glasgow did under Gregor: maximum work rate and desire to get better. I had many technical and physical limitations, but I managed to establish myself at Treviso then at Glasgow through hard work and always giving every part of myself. I managed to win my place in front of players who were technically and physically better than me through that force of effort. That’s what Franco will expect from these Glasgow players.”

It will be interesting to see which of the current crop blossom under Franco's regime and which don't really fancy all that hard work.

jimbopip wrote:It will be interesting to see which of the current crop blossom under Franco's regime and which don't really fancy all that hard work.

I very much hope, like Toonie before him, he puts his faith in the next generation and it might be the catalyst for the last few old warriors to hang up the boots.

If Franco develops a set of hard working, gnarly forwards that would be excellent. The development of McBeth, Walker, Williamson/Samuel and Brown/Jackson could be vital for Scotland in the next five years.

In terms of the backs, does he have much pedigree or is he able to give a loose enough reign to another coach? Dobie, Thompson and Smith all are hitting vital moments of development

So the General is now in place (with nickname pret-a-porter). Let's see how he goes.

As mentioned above:

- Let's not forget how much Italy have improved in recent years. No, really.
- What Glasgow needs more than anything is a granite pack of forwards who are nastier than my 8 year old who's just been told he cannot have a KitKat. That is feasible under him.
- He's a coach who has seen at club and test level what 'good' looks like.
- Remember, it's a RWC year coming up - the worst time to look for another coach as the bigger names will be looking to add another zero to their paycheque if their national side does well.

He is also handsome and has great hair - two traits which have served Jim disproportionately well in his meandering through life. You can't completely dismiss the visual.

George Carlin wrote:So the General is now in place (with nickname pret-a-porter). Let's see how he goes.

As mentioned above:

- Let's not forget how much Italy have improved in recent years. No, really.
- What Glasgow needs more than anything is a granite pack of forwards who are nastier than my 8 year old who's just been told he cannot have a KitKat. That is feasible under him.
- He's a coach who has seen at club and test level what 'good' looks like.
- Remember, it's a RWC year coming up - the worst time to look for another coach as the bigger names will be looking to add another zero to their paycheque if their national side does well.

He is also handsome and has great hair - two traits which have served Jim disproportionately well in his meandering through life. You can't completely dismiss the visual.

GC FES has seen me in the harsh light of day; he'll consider that your funniest post ever.

It has been an eventful week...the mother died on Saturday, Bigson is getting married today, grandson was rushed to A&E last night after drifting in and out of consciousness and having a temperature of 39 degrees- turned out to be tonsillitis but it was no fun. I may need a small sweet sherry at some point today.

Sorry about your mum Jim.

Enjoy the weeding and yes a sherry or two may be quite appropriate in the circumstances!

As you're a medical type chappie I shall, reluctantly, follow your advice.

jimbopip wrote:

George Carlin wrote:So the General is now in place (with nickname pret-a-porter). Let's see how he goes.

As mentioned above:

- Let's not forget how much Italy have improved in recent years. No, really.
- What Glasgow needs more than anything is a granite pack of forwards who are nastier than my 8 year old who's just been told he cannot have a KitKat. That is feasible under him.
- He's a coach who has seen at club and test level what 'good' looks like.
- Remember, it's a RWC year coming up - the worst time to look for another coach as the bigger names will be looking to add another zero to their paycheque if their national side does well.

He is also handsome and has great hair - two traits which have served Jim disproportionately well in his meandering through life. You can't completely dismiss the visual.

GC FES has seen me in the harsh light of day; he'll consider that your funniest post ever.

It has been an eventful week...the mother died on Saturday, Bigson is getting married today, grandson was rushed to A&E last night after drifting in and out of consciousness and having a temperature of 39 degrees- turned out to be tonsillitis but it was no fun. I may need a small sweet sherry at some point today.

Sorry to hear that Jim, hope you manage enjoy your sons wedding in any case - a special day.

I see Nathan Chamberlain and Robbie McCallum both signed for London Scottish next season.

Could be a good move for both of them.

In another time, McCallum might have picked up a pro contract at home, he has been a st and out in Super 6 and must have been close.

Chamberlain just needs some game time to see if he has got what it takes and got precious little of that at Edinburgh, so he might get his chance in Richmond.

It will be interesting to watch both of their progress and good to see LS mining some Scottish talent again. Having Bryan Redpath as DoR now will hipefully bring them back into the Scottish Rugby orbit a bit more than they have been over the past few seasons.