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The Welsh Regions and the URC

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The Welsh Regions and the URC - Page 3 Empty The Welsh Regions and the URC

Post by LordDowlais Thu 14 Apr 2022, 12:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

I was reading the latest article on WOL the other day titled How to save Welsh rugby - The uncomfortable truth facing our game and the difficult solutions that need to be explored. There was the usual nonsense spouted, and the demonising of the semi pro game getting too many votes and the what not, but it did get me thinking, especially the bit about reducing the waste and fixing the pathways. Here is the link if any of you are interested:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-save-welsh-rugby-uncomfortable-23671119

What started me thinking was how the regions could live within their means and still be competitive, and to be honest, they cannot. Then I started thinking about the league since it's inception and the regions involvement, has it really been a success ?

Trophy wise you could argue a point, but then I started thinking a little more. Leinster and Ulster aside, the Welsh regions average about the same attendances as the rest, but on derby day the Welsh regions get full houses. So the question I wanted to ask, is the league a good thing for Welsh rugby ?

Wales is a small place, and the teams rely on ALL the fans, both home and away. Would playing in a Welsh league do more for Welsh rugby than the league they are in now ? The teams would get bigger crowds I would wager. It is far easier to travel from Newport to Llanelli than it is from any Welsh region to Glasgow or Dublin. Would we get a lot more "full" stadiums if it were Welsh teams playing Welsh teams every week ? At the moment, the regions just rely on their own fans turning up, and none of the regions have a massive city like Dublin, or a whole country like Ulster to back them up.

I know a Welsh league would struggle to get the TV money the URC can generate, but would the extra fans at the ground make up for it ? I don't know, I'm no expert in these things, all I can say is what I bare witness to, and the URC is not very popular here in Wales, even after the best part 20 odd years, it's been messed around with too much, and people do not know what they are following anymore, changes of structure, changes of tv companies ect.....

I would like to see a 8/10 team Welsh league, with the best players from "each region" playing in a 4 team end of season regional league, where the top two go into the the top tier Euro comp, and the bottom two go into the lower Euro comp. Yes the regions still compete in Europe, but the players also represent their clubs in the league, rekindle the old rivalries, which still have the embers burning by the way.

Also, I would like to see a shake-up of the coaches in Wales, there are far too many jobs for the boys, people getting highly paid at the regions to do jobs that most people volunteer to do in the leagues below. Even though most of the article is just personal opinion, there is a lot to surmise from reading it.

Also, can we please debate the article and the subject, and not me. Very Happy

What are the thoughts of other fans on this subject ?

LordDowlais

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Post by carpet baboon Wed 20 Apr 2022, 3:14 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
Maybe a deal could be struck with national 1.


I'd take it. Anything but the dispicable URC that has destroyed pro rugby's soul in Wales.

Why would any club in any English league invite you in?
Any club with ambition won't want you and any club hanging on in that league won't want you due to risk of getting relegated.

And.its not like you are being held hostage by the URC. I'm sure.the WRU and your clubs have a say in how it's run

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Apr 2022, 3:17 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And hence the underfunding is only in comparison to sides like Leinster then? So presumably any team spending big in the Championship like a Bristol the same issues around money would raise their heads.

Absolutely, there is a salary cap in competent, fair leagues, hence why Leinster walk the league every year recently and should win Europe at a canter,

Don't believe there is a cap in the Championship is there. That may have passed me by but certainly never used to be.

It's not fully pro I don't think

I don't understand your responses there! I don't think the Championship has a salary cap so the league you want to join is not a competent, fair league in your words.

It wouldn't be the same format. The RFU's goal is apparently to have a fully professional 2nd tier, all pro clubs with all decent grounds up to spec That would be the competition that the welsh 4 ideally join. Then you can enforce salary caps, which would be a couple of million lower than the premiership. Who knows, maybe there would be fewer clubs in it to begin with and once the English clubs that aren't fully up to speed get professional it can be expanded.

This was written last week:

All the while the RFU works on plans for a hybrid cup competition between Premiership second teams and Championship clubs for the 2023-24 season. If some clubs do not feel they have the squad depth to enter into it, Premiership clubs could combine with Championship teams to enter. It is understood that if it is successful it could replace the Championship entirely, even if the RFU poured cold water on that idea last week.

Source: Guardian

It's not unthinkable to have 4 of those teams replaced with a different 4 across the border.
But currently there is no cap. So you're wanting to join a league that in your view is not competent or fair.

No 7&1/2

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 20 Apr 2022, 3:25 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And hence the underfunding is only in comparison to sides like Leinster then? So presumably any team spending big in the Championship like a Bristol the same issues around money would raise their heads.

Absolutely, there is a salary cap in competent, fair leagues, hence why Leinster walk the league every year recently and should win Europe at a canter,

Don't believe there is a cap in the Championship is there. That may have passed me by but certainly never used to be.

It's not fully pro I don't think

I don't understand your responses there! I don't think the Championship has a salary cap so the league you want to join is not a competent, fair league in your words.

It wouldn't be the same format. The RFU's goal is apparently to have a fully professional 2nd tier, all pro clubs with all decent grounds up to spec That would be the competition that the welsh 4 ideally join. Then you can enforce salary caps, which would be a couple of million lower than the premiership. Who knows, maybe there would be fewer clubs in it to begin with and once the English clubs that aren't fully up to speed get professional it can be expanded.

This was written last week:

All the while the RFU works on plans for a hybrid cup competition between Premiership second teams and Championship clubs for the 2023-24 season. If some clubs do not feel they have the squad depth to enter into it, Premiership clubs could combine with Championship teams to enter. It is understood that if it is successful it could replace the Championship entirely, even if the RFU poured cold water on that idea last week.

Source: Guardian

It's not unthinkable to have 4 of those teams replaced with a different 4 across the border.
But currently there is no cap. So you're wanting to join a league that in your view is not competent or fair.

Well no, now you're just being flippant.

RugbyFan100

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 20 Apr 2022, 3:27 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
Maybe a deal could be struck with national 1.


I'd take it. Anything but the dispicable URC that has destroyed pro rugby's soul in Wales.

Why would any club in any English league invite you in?

Money.


Any club with ambition won't want you and any club hanging on in that league won't want you due to risk of getting relegated.

Not true.

And.its not like you are being held hostage by the URC. I'm sure.the WRU and your clubs have a say in how it's run

The WRU have never wanted what the welsh 4 have wanted. The WRU care about player access and the test team. That is why Union run leagues should not exist. Because club v country issues exist.

RugbyFan100

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Apr 2022, 3:47 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And hence the underfunding is only in comparison to sides like Leinster then? So presumably any team spending big in the Championship like a Bristol the same issues around money would raise their heads.

Absolutely, there is a salary cap in competent, fair leagues, hence why Leinster walk the league every year recently and should win Europe at a canter,

Don't believe there is a cap in the Championship is there. That may have passed me by but certainly never used to be.

It's not fully pro I don't think

I don't understand your responses there! I don't think the Championship has a salary cap so the league you want to join is not a competent, fair league in your words.

It wouldn't be the same format. The RFU's goal is apparently to have a fully professional 2nd tier, all pro clubs with all decent grounds up to spec That would be the competition that the welsh 4 ideally join. Then you can enforce salary caps, which would be a couple of million lower than the premiership. Who knows, maybe there would be fewer clubs in it to begin with and once the English clubs that aren't fully up to speed get professional it can be expanded.

This was written last week:

All the while the RFU works on plans for a hybrid cup competition between Premiership second teams and Championship clubs for the 2023-24 season. If some clubs do not feel they have the squad depth to enter into it, Premiership clubs could combine with Championship teams to enter. It is understood that if it is successful it could replace the Championship entirely, even if the RFU poured cold water on that idea last week.

Source: Guardian

It's not unthinkable to have 4 of those teams replaced with a different 4 across the border.
But currently there is no cap. So you're wanting to join a league that in your view is not competent or fair.

Well no, now you're just being flippant.

No now I'm speaking about the real world. You want something to happen but it's suddenly got caveats!

No 7&1/2

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Apr 2022, 3:51 pm

Blooming 'ell, missed that the URC are now despicable! And now the English clubs are going to be paid more for the Welsh to join the Championship! And expand their league in doing so. My oh my! No wonder even you don't think it would happen, it's brexit unicorns all over again!

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Post by Old Man Wed 20 Apr 2022, 4:10 pm

So how do the Welsh really feel about the SA teams joining the URC?

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Post by Guest Wed 20 Apr 2022, 4:22 pm

Old Man wrote:So how do the Welsh really feel about the SA teams joining the URC?

A full range of opinions I expect, Old Man. Just as with everything in life. Some are very happy with it, some are not happy with it, and everything in between. But I’m sure that’s the same for Irish, Scottish and Italian fans too. Probably the same for SA fans if asked about joining the URC too Smile

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Post by Old Man Wed 20 Apr 2022, 4:49 pm

SA fans want their top players back, if the URC is that means to it, then I suspect most SA fans will be happy, our teams have gotten weaker over the past decade and less competitive with the loss of all the top players and the experience they bring to the young guns.

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Post by carpet baboon Wed 20 Apr 2022, 5:18 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
Maybe a deal could be struck with national 1.


I'd take it. Anything but the dispicable URC that has destroyed pro rugby's soul in Wales.

Why would any club in any English league invite you in?

Money.


Any club with ambition won't want you and any club hanging on in that league won't want you due to risk of getting relegated.

Not true.

And.its not like you are being held hostage by the URC. I'm sure.the WRU and your clubs have a say in how it's run

The WRU have never wanted what the welsh 4 have wanted. The WRU care about player access and the test team. That is why Union run leagues should not exist. Because club v country issues exist.

What money are you bringing?

And proof that the English teams want you in their league?
You can believe it all you like but unless you have facts to back it up it's just your opinion. Which is fine..

My proof is your still in the URC and the English clubs have shown no interest in bringing you in (except once 30 years ago and since then the odd Anglo Welsh cup that they never took seriously, and kinda only happened when they wanted the Welsh to vote with them and certain matters)

carpet baboon

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Post by TJ Wed 20 Apr 2022, 9:19 pm

The english leagues would never want the welsh clubs - no benefit for them and indeed it would mean english clubs losing out as somone would have to go to create the room in

The welsh clubs are not underfunded compared to the scots. We have done this many times. Scarlets get more than the scots, Dragons are the only poor relations.

IMO the issue with welsh competitiveness is that they spend too much to keep the stars in wales. this leaves them with not enough money to create wide enough squads AWJ paid twice as much as the best paid scots players. Many of the welsh stars are paid far in excess of any of the scots


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Post by TJ Wed 20 Apr 2022, 9:20 pm

That is why Union run leagues should not exist. Because club v country issues exist.

Ireland and Scotland seem to manage

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Post by Brendan Wed 20 Apr 2022, 11:01 pm

There are alot of leagues with no wage caps.  Don't think there was ever one in Super Rugby in its prime.

As we have seen with the wage cap in SA one team may be using connected parties to offer extra support to players.  A wage cap in the URC is not workable.

How do we deal with the currency conversions. If the cap is £5m pounds and the exchange fluctuations cause a 1% change then the euro and rand contracts go up or down by 50k. So a team could be under the cap one day and over another. How will that work
.
Do we set the cap at the Welsh level and bring the Irish down, if you do Scarlets get worse and all 4 Irish teams are right at the cap.
Should we go to the Italian or SA cap and reduce it for everyone else. Not sure a 3.5m cap would be acceptable to most fans.

Then you have payments to players for international training camps.  If a union chooses to pay 5k a day for attending test camps and makes sure their top 60 players get 20 days over the season is that counted in the cap or is that international rugby costs.

Then we have the tricky bit of central contracts or union supported wages. Who determines how much is test rugby costs and how much is club wages.

What about taxes, do we count net wages or gross wages and related employer taxes.  Each area has their own rates and the UK is lower than Ireland, is that fair. SA is probably even lower and Italy higher.

Brendan

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Post by RugbyFan100 Thu 21 Apr 2022, 10:15 am

TJ wrote:
That is why Union run leagues should not exist. Because club v country issues exist.

Ireland and Scotland seem to manage

BECAUSE
THEIR
CLUBS
ARE
UNION
OWNED!

HOW MANY TIMES!!!

RugbyFan100

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 21 Apr 2022, 10:27 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:
That is why Union run leagues should not exist. Because club v country issues exist.

Ireland and Scotland seem to manage

BECAUSE
THEIR
CLUBS
ARE
UNION
OWNED!

HOW MANY TIMES!!!

What's the real issue with that though? We all seem to manage to not moan about it too much in Europe afterall. The moan from some clubs like Saracens and Bristol have been that they aren't allowed to spend as much as the French, nothing about Glasgow being under a union.

No 7&1/2

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Post by TJ Thu 21 Apr 2022, 10:59 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:
That is why Union run leagues should not exist. Because club v country issues exist.

Ireland and Scotland seem to manage

BECAUSE
THEIR
CLUBS
ARE
UNION
OWNED!

HOW MANY TIMES!!!

so the issue is with the welsh structure not the URC? Its really funny that because the welsh cannot manage their game properly everyone else is at fault?

TJ

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Post by RugbyFan100 Thu 21 Apr 2022, 11:04 am

TJ wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:
That is why Union run leagues should not exist. Because club v country issues exist.

Ireland and Scotland seem to manage

BECAUSE
THEIR
CLUBS
ARE
UNION
OWNED!

HOW MANY TIMES!!!

so the issue is with the welsh structure not the URC?  Its really funny that because the welsh cannot manage their game properly everyone else is at fault?

Yes, pretty much. We need to be in a league with other independent clubs only.

RugbyFan100

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 21 Apr 2022, 11:14 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:
That is why Union run leagues should not exist. Because club v country issues exist.

Ireland and Scotland seem to manage

BECAUSE
THEIR
CLUBS
ARE
UNION
OWNED!

HOW MANY TIMES!!!

so the issue is with the welsh structure not the URC?  Its really funny that because the welsh cannot manage their game properly everyone else is at fault?

Yes, pretty much. We need to be in a league with other independent clubs only.

Ignoring that the Welsh clubs aren't independent of the WRU given the funding they receive, why do they need to be in a league with other 'independent' clubs only?

No 7&1/2

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Post by RugbyFan100 Thu 21 Apr 2022, 11:53 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:
That is why Union run leagues should not exist. Because club v country issues exist.

Ireland and Scotland seem to manage

BECAUSE
THEIR
CLUBS
ARE
UNION
OWNED!

HOW MANY TIMES!!!

so the issue is with the welsh structure not the URC?  Its really funny that because the welsh cannot manage their game properly everyone else is at fault?

Yes, pretty much. We need to be in a league with other independent clubs only.

Ignoring that the Welsh clubs aren't independent of the WRU given the funding they receive, why do they need to be in a league with other 'independent' clubs only?

The Welsh clubs are independently owned, Dragons are a basket case which the WRU are desperate to offload back into private ownership. Going by your logic, anybody who received a grant from the UK government in the pandemic is now not independent of the government. Your logic is utterly stupid.

The Welsh clubs' best chance to survive and thrive is to play in a league run by the clubs in it (I believe this is the 3rd or 4th time I have typed this in this thread now). That would mean that they are subject to better kick off times, more away fans, an ability to manager their own destiny, have input into tv deals, have an input into the way the competition is run, which would benefit them. It would also mean that they are not subject to referees officiating their work colleagues.

I wonder how many times I've typed that on this forum.

RugbyFan100

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 21 Apr 2022, 1:28 pm

Independently owned but reliant on the union to pay a good chunk of their players wages else they wouldn't be able to afford them. It's that point which makes the clubs currently reliant on the WRU, so no the logic is there.


As for this: 'The Welsh clubs' best chance to survive and thrive is to play in a league run by the clubs in it (I believe this is the 3rd or 4th time I have typed this in this thread now). That would mean that they are subject to better kick off times, more away fans, an ability to manager their own destiny, have input into tv deals, have an input into the way the competition is run, which would benefit them. It would also mean that they are not subject to referees officiating their work colleagues.

I wonder how many times I've typed that on this forum.' - doesn't really answer the point at all. Why do they need these things from a league which in your view is not fair currently; what is the overall aim you would want? You know that the RFU are in charge of the Championship? You know they don't have a wage cap. The TV rights are not great. You can shout into the void of organising it.

You type without saying much and ignoring a lot! You basically want to move to a league with the same drawbacks as the ones you bemoan but think the RFU will be easier to wrangle?

No 7&1/2

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Post by RugbyFan100 Thu 21 Apr 2022, 1:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Independently owned but reliant on the union to pay a good chunk of their players wages else they wouldn't be able to afford them. It's that point which makes the clubs currently reliant on the WRU, so no the logic is there.

I've already explained to you that is not the case. That is the WRU's initiative. The regions existed fine before they brought it in. If you are not going to take anything I type into your brain there will come a point when I really won't think the effort replying to you is worth it. The money paid by WRU to regions is largely money owed to them. It is not 'funding'.

Why do they need these things from a league which in your view is not fair currently; what is the overall aim you would want?

I've literally just typed the answer (short answer is to be in control of the league they are in, instead of Unions deciding everything for them) . You are not putting it into your brain.

You know that the RFU are in charge of the Championship? You know they don't have a wage cap. The TV rights are not great. You can shout into the void of organising it.

This, as well I have answered. A new competition involving the Champ clubs and the regions would be set up. This would be a condition, (probably long term may even be a two tier structure involving premiership run by PRL+). The RFU have already begun seeking out the possibility of a new cup comp which may be expanded to a replacement competition. I have provided a quote from an article on this. All stuff I have answered.

Please start engaging your brain when reading.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 21 Apr 2022, 1:52 pm

Without the WRU money you can't afford the players you currently have; you can dance around that as much as you like but you're currently reliant on the union for the current squads.

Your second point, if the Welsh clubs joined the Championship they wouldn't be in control of the league it would still be decided by the RFU.

Third point, no. You're just inventing fairy tales. The Championship is not run this way. You may as well type the Welsh clubs will tell the URC that only independently owned clubs now decide on the running of the league.

Please avoid the insults you're starting to sound like Twitter Phil.

LD's suggestion would actually bring you closer to the goals you profess which being a lot more achievable.

No 7&1/2

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Post by Guest Thu 21 Apr 2022, 2:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Without the WRU money you can't afford the players you currently have; you can dance around that as much as you like but you're currently reliant on the union for the current squads.

Your second point, if the Welsh clubs joined the Championship they wouldn't be in control of the league it would still be decided by the RFU.

Third point, no. You're just inventing fairy tales. The Championship is not run this way. You may as well type the Welsh clubs will tell the URC that only independently owned clubs now decide on the running of the league.

Please avoid the insults you're starting to sound like Twitter Phil.

LD's suggestion would actually bring you closer to the goals you profess which being a lot more achievable.

I disagree a little with the quoted point at the top, 7.5, although I haven't worked it all out on paper.  As RugbyFan says we were fine before the 80% thing came in.  The payment from the WRU allows us to buy in players to cover the extended absence of the main Wales squad players.  So if the payment from the union dried up then so too would the requirement to release them for more than is normal, and therefore we would not need to buy extra squad players to cover them.  Our squad sizes, from what I gather, are quite big so these could be slimmed down if the WRU went back to just getting its Team Wales players during the normal window.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 21 Apr 2022, 2:47 pm

The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Without the WRU money you can't afford the players you currently have; you can dance around that as much as you like but you're currently reliant on the union for the current squads.

Your second point, if the Welsh clubs joined the Championship they wouldn't be in control of the league it would still be decided by the RFU.

Third point, no. You're just inventing fairy tales. The Championship is not run this way. You may as well type the Welsh clubs will tell the URC that only independently owned clubs now decide on the running of the league.

Please avoid the insults you're starting to sound like Twitter Phil.

LD's suggestion would actually bring you closer to the goals you profess which being a lot more achievable.

I disagree a little with the quoted point at the top, 7.5, although I haven't worked it all out on paper.  As RugbyFan says we were fine before the 80% thing came in.  The payment from the WRU allows us to buy in players to cover the extended absence of the main Wales squad players.  So if the payment from the union dried up then so too would the requirement to release them for more than is normal, and therefore we would not need to buy extra squad players to cover them.  Our squad sizes, from what I gather, are quite big so these could be slimmed down if the WRU went back to just getting its Team Wales players during the normal window.

Depending how many are linked to a team though 80% is a huge hit to be able to find down the back of the sofa. But as stated above I'm talking currently. As of now those squads are reliant on the Union. If things were to change so would squads as you say. In either the semi pro league from the OP or playing in the Championship as I've said you wouldn't have the top players there as they would move.

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Post by Guest Thu 21 Apr 2022, 4:36 pm

Just been reading about the proposed changes to the Welsh Prem that sits below the regions. Rumour is they’re considering cutting to 9 teams, with 2 teams per region plus RGC in North Wales. But get this…..they want to do it so that there are clubs in the prem that are ‘not in the same area as the regions’. An oxymoron, surely, as the regions are meant to cover all of wales. But Anyway, it means that the teams most likely to be ‘culled’ from the prem are Cardiff, Llanelli, Newport and Swansea. What that means going forward I do not know. That’s going to be pretty incendiary though if those teams cease to exist completely, unless the aim is to allow the pro teams/regions to rebrand themselves as these teams?

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Post by RiscaGame Thu 21 Apr 2022, 4:57 pm

It seems like Rob Rees has this wrong.

I alluded to the changes in the Premiership way earlier in the thread. People I would trust with better connections than Rob (bless him), included those four clubs.

From our own POV, I don't see our two teams being Ebbw and Pontypool (or whoever). It's a bit of a leap to throw so many obstacles at Pontypool's promotion, to then replace Newport with them. I can't see how it would be Bargoed otherwise and certainly not Cross Keys.

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Post by Guest Thu 21 Apr 2022, 6:03 pm

Who is Rob Rees?!

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Post by Old Man Thu 21 Apr 2022, 6:10 pm

He is the son of Mr and Mrs Rees Wink

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Post by Guest Thu 21 Apr 2022, 6:34 pm

Oh, him! Very Happy

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Post by RiscaGame Thu 21 Apr 2022, 7:39 pm

Haha. Old Man is right.

Apologies, but he appears to be the “breaker of this news” via his Last Word On Sports site, so I assumed that was where you had read it.

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Post by Guest Thu 21 Apr 2022, 8:21 pm

RiscaGame wrote:Haha. Old Man is right.

Apologies, but he appears to be the “breaker of this news” via his Last Word On Sports site, so I assumed that was where you had read it.

Oh right, could have been! It was a link I followed on Twitter but not sure who wrote it. So you think it’s wide of the mark? It did seem odd to get rid of the ‘Big 4’ from the prem, but I wondered if there we other things at play perhaps. Do we have any timelines for the announcement of the prem plans? They’ll need to know soon to start planning for the new season.

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Post by TJ Thu 21 Apr 2022, 8:43 pm

This, as well I have answered. A new competition involving the Champ clubs and the regions would be set up. This would be a condition, (probably long term may even be a two tier structure involving premiership run by PRL+). The RFU have already begun seeking out the possibility of a new cup comp which may be expanded to a replacement competition. I have provided a quote from an article on this. All stuff I have answered.

What is the incentive for the english clubs inthis. 4 of the english teams would have to drop out and the welsh clubs would not bring in significant extra money. also there would be no entry to the european cup would there?

sorry dude - its the URC or a welsh only league = thats your only options. Any idea of playing any form of anglo welsh league is just a non starter as there is no upsides for the english clubs
No one would want to pay TV rights for this anyway would they - why would they for some of the second rank english clubs and teams that cannot survive in the URC


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Post by Filo8 Thu 21 Apr 2022, 9:05 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Without the WRU money you can't afford the players you currently have; you can dance around that as much as you like but you're currently reliant on the union for the current squads.

Your second point, if the Welsh clubs joined the Championship they wouldn't be in control of the league it would still be decided by the RFU.

Third point, no. You're just inventing fairy tales. The Championship is not run this way. You may as well type the Welsh clubs will tell the URC that only independently owned clubs now decide on the running of the league.

Please avoid the insults you're starting to sound like Twitter Phil.

LD's suggestion would actually bring you closer to the goals you profess which being a lot more achievable.

I disagree a little with the quoted point at the top, 7.5, although I haven't worked it all out on paper.  As RugbyFan says we were fine before the 80% thing came in.  The payment from the WRU allows us to buy in players to cover the extended absence of the main Wales squad players.  So if the payment from the union dried up then so too would the requirement to release them for more than is normal, and therefore we would not need to buy extra squad players to cover them.  Our squad sizes, from what I gather, are quite big so these could be slimmed down if the WRU went back to just getting its Team Wales players during the normal window.

Depending how many are linked to a team though 80% is a huge hit to be able to find down the back of the sofa. But as stated above I'm talking currently. As of now those squads are reliant on the Union. If things were to change so would squads as you say. In either the semi pro league from the OP or playing in the Championship as I've said you wouldn't have the top players there as they would move.
The 80% contracts you are mentioning is just the way they have decided to merit the payments to each team from the central pot for player release etc. It used to be an equal split of pretty much all the money between the four sides but they decided this didn't make sense if one side was contributing 15 players to the Welsh squad and another was only contributing 3 for example. Therefore if the 80% contract situation changed it wouldn't remove any money, just the way it is split.

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Post by RiscaGame Thu 21 Apr 2022, 10:43 pm

The Oracle wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:Haha. Old Man is right.

Apologies, but he appears to be the “breaker of this news” via his Last Word On Sports site, so I assumed that was where you had read it.

Oh right, could have been! It was a link I followed on Twitter but not sure who wrote it. So you think it’s wide of the mark? It did seem odd to get rid of the ‘Big 4’ from the prem, but I wondered if there we other things at play perhaps. Do we have any timelines for the announcement of the prem plans? They’ll need to know soon to start planning for the new season.

I think this plan was for the season after next or season 23/24 (that took some working out Very Happy).

It’s not much more than rumours at present. I believe it has been mooted by the WRU, but there’ll always be opposition etc. That’s just going off whispers, so I guess that makes me no better than LWOS haha.

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Post by Brendan Thu 21 Apr 2022, 11:10 pm

If they removed the 80% wage subsidy Scarlets would be down 5m.  If Scarlets then only got 2.5m that's alot of contracts that get cut as the private owners seem unable to fund as they use to.

As TJ says the problem is to much money is wasted on 1 really good player when 2 fairly good players could be secured.  At the start of the season how many Edinburgh players would you pick over their Scarlet equivalent, probably not alot.  They don't have to many superstars but their second string players seem better than Scarlets seconds.  As a season depends on a squad your back up player is very important.

In this league everyone has test players who miss lots of games away at camps or during the 6 nations so it's not really a reason why the Welsh struggle.  It's not like Ireland, Scotland or Italy released all their players on the off weeks and only the WRU kept theirs.  Not sure on the number of players lost during internationals but Scots with simillar budgets losing simillar numbers seem to mange better.

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Post by TJ Thu 21 Apr 2022, 11:27 pm

As TJ says the problem is to much money is wasted on 1 really good player when 2 fairly good players could be secured.  At the start of the season how many Edinburgh players would you pick over their Scarlet equivalent, probably not alot.  They don't have to many superstars but their second string players seem better than Scarlets seconds.  As a season depends on a squad your back up player is very important.

This to me is the key point.  Its a real shame finances are not more transparant but we know from the WOL analysis that only the dragons get significantly less funding than the scots the other 3 are similar with Scarlets actually having a slightly bigger budget

Again we do not know current figures but a couple of years ago the best paid scot was getting £300 000.   For the price of one AWJ my bet is you could get a Scott Cummings and a Gilcrest with some left over

The welsh teams have not learnt what I call the leinster lesson.  Its not enough to have a first team and reserves.  You need a squad with at least two players in every position who can be swapped with no huge loss of ability and who can execute the game plan
No player can play every game especially the international players.  So you need good journey men or up and coming youngsters who can swap in when needed.  If you have spent all your budget on the stars then yo simply cannot afford the depth

you need 35 - 40 players who are all worth a first team place

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Post by geoff999rugby Fri 22 Apr 2022, 7:27 am

But who has that, Ulster and Munster don’t.

Only Leinster do in the URC

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 22 Apr 2022, 8:19 am

Filo8 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Without the WRU money you can't afford the players you currently have; you can dance around that as much as you like but you're currently reliant on the union for the current squads.

Your second point, if the Welsh clubs joined the Championship they wouldn't be in control of the league it would still be decided by the RFU.

Third point, no. You're just inventing fairy tales. The Championship is not run this way. You may as well type the Welsh clubs will tell the URC that only independently owned clubs now decide on the running of the league.

Please avoid the insults you're starting to sound like Twitter Phil.

LD's suggestion would actually bring you closer to the goals you profess which being a lot more achievable.

I disagree a little with the quoted point at the top, 7.5, although I haven't worked it all out on paper.  As RugbyFan says we were fine before the 80% thing came in.  The payment from the WRU allows us to buy in players to cover the extended absence of the main Wales squad players.  So if the payment from the union dried up then so too would the requirement to release them for more than is normal, and therefore we would not need to buy extra squad players to cover them.  Our squad sizes, from what I gather, are quite big so these could be slimmed down if the WRU went back to just getting its Team Wales players during the normal window.

Depending how many are linked to a team though 80% is a huge hit to be able to find down the back of the sofa. But as stated above I'm talking currently. As of now those squads are reliant on the Union. If things were to change so would squads as you say. In either the semi pro league from the OP or playing in the Championship as I've said you wouldn't have the top players there as they would move.
The 80% contracts you are mentioning is just the way they have decided to merit the payments to each team from the central pot for player release etc. It used to be an equal split of pretty much all the money between the four sides but they decided this didn't make sense if one side was contributing 15 players to the Welsh squad and another was only contributing 3 for example. Therefore if the 80% contract situation changed it wouldn't remove any money, just the way it is split.

Depends if the clubs want to be reliant on the WRU or not really. I think they'd try to secure that funding, as why wouldn't you try?

Circles back to another problem this though; how the club and international games fit together in Wales. As ever among a population you're going to have a range of opinions on which part is the apex, who should wield power or how a partnership should work. Clearly the view that this is about the clubs and hence the union and national team don't come into it is valid for those that hold it, but to follow that path relegate the teams to a second division in another country will most likely have a detrimental impact on both results at national level and the money flowing to the clubs. A big tick possibly if you can get some 3pm games on a Saturday but I think alot of people would not be happy with that.

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Post by Guest Fri 22 Apr 2022, 9:30 am

TJ wrote:
As TJ says the problem is to much money is wasted on 1 really good player when 2 fairly good players could be secured.  At the start of the season how many Edinburgh players would you pick over their Scarlet equivalent, probably not alot.  They don't have to many superstars but their second string players seem better than Scarlets seconds.  As a season depends on a squad your back up player is very important.

This to me is the key point.  Its a real shame finances are not more transparant but we know from the WOL analysis that only the dragons get significantly less funding than the scots the other 3 are similar with Scarlets actually having a slightly bigger budget

Again we do not know current figures but a couple of years ago the best paid scot was getting £300 000.   For the price of one AWJ my bet is you could get a Scott Cummings and a Gilcrest with some left over

The welsh teams have not learnt what I call the leinster lesson.  Its not enough to have a first team and reserves.  You need a squad with at least two players in every position who can be swapped with no huge loss of ability and who can execute the game plan
No player can play every game especially the international players.  So you need good journey men or up and coming youngsters who can swap in when needed.  If you have spent all your budget on the stars then yo simply cannot afford the depth

you need 35 - 40 players who are all worth a first team place

I know you mean well (sort of!), TJ. But with respect I'm not sure the Scottish model is anything to write home about. If I see the evidence of its success then I might be convinced but so far there isn't much to show for it. Glasgow had a bit of success a few years back, but then so have Ospreys and Scarlets in the past too (and Cardiff a bit if you look at their cup wins). But nothing at international level for Scotland, except a bit if improvement. So I'd be happier to follow the Irish model more where they look to keep pretty much all Irish international players at home playing for the provinces. And they have the success to show as evidence that it's a decent approach. We're currently much closer to that approach than we are to Scotland's.

So keeping players at the regions would be my preference. I get it with 2 teams, but with 4 there's still plenty of space for youngsters to come through. I think the regions would just get worse if we got rid of out best players and promoted the 2nd and 3rd best instead. Might save some cash, but unless we allow loads of cheap foreign imports then the likelihood is that we just drive up the price of 2nd rate Welsh players. Simple supply and demand economics. Agents would be rubbing their hands knowing the regions would be scouring the lower leagues looking for players to fill the squads and could name their price to a certain extent. This happedned previously when we brought in the NWQ quota. Suddenly there was a rush for WQ to fill the squads and sub-par players were promoted and paid a pro wage. Plus it's so much harder to market teams without star players. And if we're trying to swell the coffers to rely less on the WRU then increasing crowds and getting more support should be a key aim, and for me that works best with the top Welsh players playing.

One thing that needs to improve is the coaching. Look below the guys in charge and there's some questionable coaches in place at this level. Mostly cutting their teeth. Not sure if that's an approach to develop our own coaches rather than rely on outside coaches, but you look at some of the coaches at the other Pro16 teams and the Welsh ones are a huge step down. Even our top guys, the DoRs and head coaches, are not all that great. Dwayne Peel getting one of only 4 top jobs in Welsh club rugby? Based on what?! Did he earn his stripes enough first? Dean Ryan - lots of criticism of him, although he seems to be able to sign decent players. But his coaching team - there's a lot of people there who haven't set the world alight coaching elsewhere or are fairly new to coaching. Some should probably be in the semi-pro Welsh Prem not pro rugby at this stage. After Dean Ryan at the top the rest looks like - Mefin Davies (forwards), Luke Narraway (forwards), Simon Cross (defence), Gordon Ross (backs). Not exactly comparable to Leinster's lineup! And people wonder why we struggle to get the wins.

So for me - I'd stick to 4 teams; stick with the Pro16; perhaps allow different 'entities' to be entered (maybe clubs); perhaps tweak the 60 cap rule a bit (or at least not be so harsh on the over-60 cap players if they do want to play outside Wales); re-look at the extra time Wales insist on for its squad players outside the international window, which might allow us to trim our squads a little; and look to invest more in better coaching.

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Post by TJ Fri 22 Apr 2022, 9:32 am

geoff999rugby wrote:But who has that, Ulster and Munster don’t.

Only Leinster do in the URC

Glasgow, Edinburgh, Ulster, Munster IMO. I do not know enough about the SA teams.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Fri 22 Apr 2022, 9:32 am

Brendan wrote:If they removed the 80% wage subsidy Scarlets would be down 5m.  If Scarlets then only got 2.5m that's alot of contracts that get cut as the private owners seem unable to fund as they use to.

.

What the hell are you on about?

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Post by RugbyFan100 Fri 22 Apr 2022, 9:34 am

The Oracle wrote: perhaps allow different 'entities' to be entered (maybe clubs); .

Please tell me you're not advocating promoting Carmarthen Quins to go and play in Johannesburg.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 22 Apr 2022, 9:42 am

The Oracle wrote:
TJ wrote:
As TJ says the problem is to much money is wasted on 1 really good player when 2 fairly good players could be secured.  At the start of the season how many Edinburgh players would you pick over their Scarlet equivalent, probably not alot.  They don't have to many superstars but their second string players seem better than Scarlets seconds.  As a season depends on a squad your back up player is very important.

This to me is the key point.  Its a real shame finances are not more transparant but we know from the WOL analysis that only the dragons get significantly less funding than the scots the other 3 are similar with Scarlets actually having a slightly bigger budget

Again we do not know current figures but a couple of years ago the best paid scot was getting £300 000.   For the price of one AWJ my bet is you could get a Scott Cummings and a Gilcrest with some left over

The welsh teams have not learnt what I call the leinster lesson.  Its not enough to have a first team and reserves.  You need a squad with at least two players in every position who can be swapped with no huge loss of ability and who can execute the game plan
No player can play every game especially the international players.  So you need good journey men or up and coming youngsters who can swap in when needed.  If you have spent all your budget on the stars then yo simply cannot afford the depth

you need 35 - 40 players who are all worth a first team place

I know you mean well (sort of!), TJ.  But with respect I'm not sure the Scottish model is anything to write home about.  If I see the evidence of its success then I might be convinced but so far there isn't much to show for it.  Glasgow had a bit of success a few years back, but then so have Ospreys and Scarlets in the past too (and Cardiff a bit if you look at their cup wins).  But nothing at international level for Scotland, except a bit if improvement.  So I'd be happier to follow the Irish model more where they look to keep pretty much all Irish international players at home playing for the provinces.  And they have the success to show as evidence that it's a decent approach.  We're currently much closer to that approach than we are to Scotland's.  

So keeping players at the regions would be my preference.  I get it with 2 teams, but with 4 there's still plenty of space for youngsters to come through.  I think the regions would just get worse if we got rid of out best players and promoted the 2nd and 3rd best instead.  Might save some cash, but unless we allow loads of cheap foreign imports then the likelihood is that we just drive up the price of 2nd rate Welsh players.  Simple supply and demand economics.  Agents would be rubbing their hands knowing the regions would be scouring the lower leagues looking for players to fill the squads and could name their price to a certain extent. This happedned previously when we brought in the NWQ quota.  Suddenly there was a rush for WQ to fill the squads and sub-par players were promoted and paid a pro wage.  Plus it's so much harder to market teams without star players.  And if we're trying to swell the coffers to rely less on the WRU then increasing crowds and getting more support should be a key aim, and for me that works best with the top Welsh players playing.

One thing that needs to improve is the coaching.  Look below the guys in charge and there's some questionable coaches in place at this level.  Mostly cutting their teeth.  Not sure if that's an approach to develop our own coaches rather than rely on outside coaches, but you look at some of the coaches at the other Pro16 teams and the Welsh ones are a huge step down.  Even our top guys, the DoRs and head coaches, are not all that great.  Dwayne Peel getting one of only 4 top jobs in Welsh club rugby?  Based on what?!  Did he earn his stripes enough first?  Dean Ryan - lots of criticism of him, although he seems to be able to sign decent players.  But his coaching team - there's a lot of people there who haven't set the world alight coaching elsewhere or are fairly new to coaching.  Some should probably be in the semi-pro Welsh Prem not pro rugby at this stage.  After Dean Ryan at the top the rest looks like - Mefin Davies (forwards), Luke Narraway (forwards), Simon Cross (defence), Gordon Ross (backs).  Not exactly comparable to Leinster's lineup!  And people wonder why we struggle to get the wins.

So for me - I'd stick to 4 teams; stick with the Pro16; perhaps allow different 'entities' to be entered (maybe clubs); perhaps tweak the 60 cap rule a bit (or at least not be so harsh on the over-60 cap players if they do want to play outside Wales); re-look at the extra time Wales insist on for its squad players outside the international window, which might allow us to trim our squads a little; and look to invest more in better coaching.

The first part of your response intrigues me, and it's that underlying question of what are people really after ie what does success look like. And that paints what people will conclude is a good model to follow. Is it that a team wins trophies? is competitive across all competitions? Is it that they consistently finish mid table with a large core of 'home grown' players? Is it that the teams produces line after line of international players? Is it that they entertain by flinging the ball about; or they have a forward pack to mulch the opposition etc I don't believe there is A model to follow myself.

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Post by TJ Fri 22 Apr 2022, 9:48 am

But with respect I'm not sure the Scottish model is anything to write home about. If I see the evidence of its success

consistently above the welsh teams in the URC.  decent runs in the minnows cup.  Yes we are fighting for top 4 / 6 places in the league not the top this season but the league results speak for themselves

At this moment Glasgow 3rd, Edinburgh 7th both with a decent chance of top 4 finish
Scarlets 9th with an outside chance, Ospreys 11th, cardiff 14th Dragons 15th with no chance of getting into the top half

Both Scots teams in the last 8 of the minnows cup.  are any of the welsh teams involved any more?  there is no doubt the scots are outperforming the welsh in the league and IMO the lack of a wider squad is why

the key is being canny with your recruitment.  Players like Van der Merwe.  Injured, out of contract so we got him cheap and for 3 years he was the top performing winger in the URC

Which would be better for your team - 1 AWJ or a Scott Cummings and a Gilcrest with a bit of cash left over?

Its winning that gets the crowds in  Your internationals will never be able to play more than half the league games ( 10 internationals a year plus half a dozen european cup games means only around 10 league games they can play)

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Post by RugbyFan100 Fri 22 Apr 2022, 10:00 am

TJ wrote:
But with respect I'm not sure the Scottish model is anything to write home about. If I see the evidence of its success

consistently above the welsh teams in the URC.  


Laugh

I thought the Welsh teams were rubbish? Now they're a yardstick for Scottish success?

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Post by TJ Fri 22 Apr 2022, 10:06 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
Maybe a deal could be struck with national 1.



Why would any club in any English league invite you in?

Money.



What money would the welsh bring?  No extra TV money IMO and no away crowsds.  I do not see how there would be any financial advantage. especially as 4 english teams would need to drop out[/quote]


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Post by TJ Fri 22 Apr 2022, 10:08 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:
But with respect I'm not sure the Scottish model is anything to write home about. If I see the evidence of its success

consistently above the welsh teams in the URC.  


Laugh

I thought the Welsh teams were rubbish? Now they're a yardstick for Scottish success?

all it shows is the scots model ( mimicking leinster but with a lower budget) has worked better than the welsh model

Yes its disappointing when our best players go south but a) that tends to develop them further and b) it frees up money for a wider squad

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Post by RugbyFan100 Fri 22 Apr 2022, 10:17 am

TJ wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
Maybe a deal could be struck with national 1.



Why would any club in any English league invite you in?

Money.



What money would the welsh bring?  No extra TV money IMO and no away crowsds.  I do not see how there would be any financial advantage. especially as 4 english teams would need to drop out

[/quote]

Broadcasting contract for 4 elite teams entering the Championship.

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The Welsh Regions and the URC - Page 3 Empty Re: The Welsh Regions and the URC

Post by RugbyFan100 Fri 22 Apr 2022, 10:18 am

TJ wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:
But with respect I'm not sure the Scottish model is anything to write home about. If I see the evidence of its success

consistently above the welsh teams in the URC.  


Laugh

I thought the Welsh teams were rubbish? Now they're a yardstick for Scottish success?

all it shows is the scots model ( mimicking leinster but with a lower budget) has worked better than the welsh model


Yeaaah, the number of league titles would probably say different there.

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The Welsh Regions and the URC - Page 3 Empty Re: The Welsh Regions and the URC

Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 22 Apr 2022, 10:19 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
Maybe a deal could be struck with national 1.



Why would any club in any English league invite you in?

Money.



What money would the welsh bring?  No extra TV money IMO and no away crowsds.  I do not see how there would be any financial advantage. especially as 4 english teams would need to drop out


Broadcasting contract for 4 elite teams entering the Championship.[/quote]

lol.

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The Welsh Regions and the URC - Page 3 Empty Re: The Welsh Regions and the URC

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