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The Welsh Regions and the URC

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Post by LordDowlais Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

I was reading the latest article on WOL the other day titled How to save Welsh rugby - The uncomfortable truth facing our game and the difficult solutions that need to be explored. There was the usual nonsense spouted, and the demonising of the semi pro game getting too many votes and the what not, but it did get me thinking, especially the bit about reducing the waste and fixing the pathways. Here is the link if any of you are interested:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-save-welsh-rugby-uncomfortable-23671119

What started me thinking was how the regions could live within their means and still be competitive, and to be honest, they cannot. Then I started thinking about the league since it's inception and the regions involvement, has it really been a success ?

Trophy wise you could argue a point, but then I started thinking a little more. Leinster and Ulster aside, the Welsh regions average about the same attendances as the rest, but on derby day the Welsh regions get full houses. So the question I wanted to ask, is the league a good thing for Welsh rugby ?

Wales is a small place, and the teams rely on ALL the fans, both home and away. Would playing in a Welsh league do more for Welsh rugby than the league they are in now ? The teams would get bigger crowds I would wager. It is far easier to travel from Newport to Llanelli than it is from any Welsh region to Glasgow or Dublin. Would we get a lot more "full" stadiums if it were Welsh teams playing Welsh teams every week ? At the moment, the regions just rely on their own fans turning up, and none of the regions have a massive city like Dublin, or a whole country like Ulster to back them up.

I know a Welsh league would struggle to get the TV money the URC can generate, but would the extra fans at the ground make up for it ? I don't know, I'm no expert in these things, all I can say is what I bare witness to, and the URC is not very popular here in Wales, even after the best part 20 odd years, it's been messed around with too much, and people do not know what they are following anymore, changes of structure, changes of tv companies ect.....

I would like to see a 8/10 team Welsh league, with the best players from "each region" playing in a 4 team end of season regional league, where the top two go into the the top tier Euro comp, and the bottom two go into the lower Euro comp. Yes the regions still compete in Europe, but the players also represent their clubs in the league, rekindle the old rivalries, which still have the embers burning by the way.

Also, I would like to see a shake-up of the coaches in Wales, there are far too many jobs for the boys, people getting highly paid at the regions to do jobs that most people volunteer to do in the leagues below. Even though most of the article is just personal opinion, there is a lot to surmise from reading it.

Also, can we please debate the article and the subject, and not me. Very Happy

What are the thoughts of other fans on this subject ?

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Post by RugbyFan100 Fri May 27, 2022 1:31 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:99% of Welsh problems in Welsh Rugby are relate to decision making and alignment.

Completely disagree. Make all the right decisions off the pitch and align all you want to.......the Welsh 4 are not winning the Champions Cup. Winning the Champions Cup takes a budget of £11m +.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Fri May 27, 2022 1:32 pm

The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:99% of Welsh problems in Welsh Rugby are relate to decision making and alignment.  Money won't fix that. But money is the narrative that everyone is pushing so people don't actually look at the first part.

Offer a magnificent wage and bonus structure and you shall have better governance.

Are you serious?! Not in Welsh rugby! You could pay the guys at the top £1 million each but the clubs could still down vote them, or just call an EGM and get them removed. The clubs have to agree all the governance stuff.

That is true.

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Post by Welshmushroom Fri May 27, 2022 1:38 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:99% of Welsh problems in Welsh Rugby are relate to decision making and alignment.

Completely disagree. Make all the right decisions off the pitch and align all you want to.......the Welsh 4 are not winning the Champions Cup. Winning the Champions Cup takes a budget of £11m +.

Ok but then explain how a side like the Scarlets with the third highest playing budget in the league came 10th. If what you spend always determined success why exactly are the Scarlets not performing against sides with half their budget. Shouldn't really happen using your argument. I think it would be foolish yardstick to measure 80% of all European clubs. Essentially there is 1 Irish side and maybe 6 French sides who have the salary cap required to win it. Everyone outside of that has only ever at best an outside shot of winning it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri May 27, 2022 1:38 pm

The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:99% of Welsh problems in Welsh Rugby are relate to decision making and alignment.  Money won't fix that. But money is the narrative that everyone is pushing so people don't actually look at the first part.

Offer a magnificent wage and bonus structure and you shall have better governance.

Are you serious?! Not in Welsh rugby! You could pay the guys at the top £1 million each but the clubs could still down vote them, or just call an EGM and get them removed. The clubs have to agree all the governance stuff.

But that's as much down to money. Not saying bribe them as such but with enough financial support to the clubs and the grassroots which feed those, opinions can change. Or you simply strong arm them. Money makes things easier, so much easier. It's the incredibly difficult to get silver bullet.

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Post by Welshmushroom Fri May 27, 2022 1:44 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:99% of Welsh problems in Welsh Rugby are relate to decision making and alignment.  Money won't fix that. But money is the narrative that everyone is pushing so people don't actually look at the first part.

Offer a magnificent wage and bonus structure and you shall have better governance.

Are you serious?! Not in Welsh rugby! You could pay the guys at the top £1 million each but the clubs could still down vote them, or just call an EGM and get them removed. The clubs have to agree all the governance stuff.

But that's as much down to money. Not saying bribe them as such but with enough financial support to the clubs and the grassroots which feed those, opinions can change. Or you simply strong arm them. Money makes things easier, so much easier. It's the incredibly difficult to get silver bullet.

Yes money does make life easier if used properly. What you seem to be missing is that Welsh Rugby currently is like that guy who win's a million and takes that money and goes to the Casino. If they don't sort the root cause out essentially you would be throwing good money after bad.

They need to sort our the governance, structures and pathways up and only then should investment be brought on to the table once the fundamentals have been resolved.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Fri May 27, 2022 1:44 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:99% of Welsh problems in Welsh Rugby are relate to decision making and alignment.

Completely disagree. Make all the right decisions off the pitch and align all you want to.......the Welsh 4 are not winning the Champions Cup. Winning the Champions Cup takes a budget of £11m +.

Ok but then explain how a side like the Scarlets with the third highest playing budget in the league came 10th.  If what you spend always determined success why exactly are the Scarlets not performing against sides with half their budget.  Shouldn't really happen using your argument.  I think it would be foolish yardstick to measure 80% of all European clubs.  Essentially there is 1 Irish side and maybe 6 French sides who have the salary cap required to win it.  Everyone outside of that has only ever at best an outside shot of winning it.

Many things can be true at the same time. The Scarlets don't have the third highest playing budget in the league. I think they may have 2 seasons ago. Since then, they have hired terribly in key coaching positions and overpaid in a few player positions like centre. They've had a nightmare season and massively underachieved.

You can have the best coaches in the league and the best management structure at your club. But unless you match Leinster, Stade Tolousain and La Rochelle for budget spend, you are not going to get enough payers of quality to ensure you are successfully resting your best player in May for the Champions Cup final.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Fri May 27, 2022 1:45 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:

They need to sort our the governance, structures and pathways up and only then should investment be brought on to the table once the fundamentals have been resolved.

That's never going to happen. Turkeys / Christmas etc.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri May 27, 2022 1:47 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:99% of Welsh problems in Welsh Rugby are relate to decision making and alignment.  Money won't fix that. But money is the narrative that everyone is pushing so people don't actually look at the first part.

Offer a magnificent wage and bonus structure and you shall have better governance.

Are you serious?! Not in Welsh rugby! You could pay the guys at the top £1 million each but the clubs could still down vote them, or just call an EGM and get them removed. The clubs have to agree all the governance stuff.

But that's as much down to money. Not saying bribe them as such but with enough financial support to the clubs and the grassroots which feed those, opinions can change. Or you simply strong arm them. Money makes things easier, so much easier. It's the incredibly difficult to get silver bullet.

Yes money does make life easier if used properly.  What you seem to be missing is that Welsh Rugby currently is like that guy who win's a million and takes that money and goes to the Casino.  If they don't sort the root cause out essentially you would be throwing good money after bad.

They need to sort our the governance, structures and pathways up and only then should investment be brought on to the table once the fundamentals have been resolved.

Yeah. And how to do that without dosh? You would need to deicide what to cut. Could be player wages as LD suggests; see all the talent drift away to other clubs and hope to cling on and get investment into a semi pro product. Difficult.

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Post by Guest Fri May 27, 2022 1:50 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:'Ireland' or their teams do import, or merely sign players from elsewhere. Of course they do. SA's teams well, there's a lack of money there to compete for anyone if a team from France etc want them too.

Ireland do bring in overseas players.  But there are total restrictions in place and the IRFU sign off on all of them.  Nobody is saying that on occasion you have to outsource some overseas players.  But Leinster, Munster, Ulster & Connacht are only permitted 2 overseas players each that are not Eligible for Ireland.  How many starting Irish teams in the URC season this year at overseas players in it.  21 players in every Irish side has been Irish qualified.  

Welsh sides are nowhere near that stat currently.

Are you implying Leinster's success for example is not primarily achieved because they produce 99% of their talent through their own academies?  I hardly think Alaalatoa has been such a key signing he will be the difference between them winning everything they play in currently.  If anything they clearly show that success can be achieved by creating and promoting from within.    

I have to say I disagree with this overseas player thing. It's not like the Welsh regions are chock full of them. For me, if a team is struggling to fill a place in the team/squad then why not look to overseas? Take someone like Sam Lousi at Scarlets. He's been arguably the best player out of all the regions this season. Awesome player. But you seem to be saying that you would get rid of him and promote someone else from within who is clearly not as good as him. For me, you try to develop players alongside him and let his experience and skill rub off on others. And if a player can't oust him from his place in the team then they don't deserve it. They need to strive to bump him out the way by getting better. But no one is bumping him out the way at Scarlets currently which means no one is good enough (yet). One of the problems of the last few years I think is the fact that we brought in the quota, got rid of a load of overseas players and then had to promote rank average players in their place. They think they're the bees knees because they're first choice and have little competition. I think the league, the regions, the squads.......are much more vibrant and attractive to fans with a smattering of overseas players thrown in. Just sticking to one 'bloodline' (not the right term, but you know what I mean) or conveyor belt of players is just limiting ourselves as clubs, especially when that conveyor belt is currently spluttering and in need of a good service! We just need to make sure we're buying better than what's already there because obviously then there would be no need if they are not an improvement on what we have. But where there's shortage or need, and there's space within a quota, then go for it I say.

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Post by Kingshu Fri May 27, 2022 5:57 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:'Ireland' or their teams do import, or merely sign players from elsewhere. Of course they do. SA's teams well, there's a lack of money there to compete for anyone if a team from France etc want them too.

Ireland do bring in overseas players.  But there are total restrictions in place and the IRFU sign off on all of them.  Nobody is saying that on occasion you have to outsource some overseas players.  But Leinster, Munster, Ulster & Connacht are only permitted 2 overseas players each that are not Eligible for Ireland.  How many starting Irish teams in the URC season this year at overseas players in it.  21 players in every Irish side has been Irish qualified.  

Welsh sides are nowhere near that stat currently.

Are you implying Leinster's success for example is not primarily achieved because they produce 99% of their talent through their own academies?  I hardly think Alaalatoa has been such a key signing he will be the difference between them winning everything they play in currently.  If anything they clearly show that success can be achieved by creating and promoting from within.    

I have to say I disagree with this overseas player thing.  It's not like the Welsh regions are chock full of them.  For me, if a team is struggling to fill a place in the team/squad then why not look to overseas?  Take someone like Sam Lousi at Scarlets.  He's been arguably the best player out of all the regions this season.  Awesome player.  But you seem to be saying that you would get rid of him and promote someone else from within who is clearly not as good as him.  For me, you try to develop players alongside him and let his experience and skill rub off on others.  And if a player can't oust him from his place in the team then they don't deserve it.  They need to strive to bump him out the way by getting better.  But no one is bumping him out the way at Scarlets currently which means no one is good enough (yet).  One of the problems of the last few years I think is the fact that we brought in the quota, got rid of a load of overseas players and then had to promote rank average players in their place.  They think they're the bees knees because they're first choice and have little competition.  I think the league, the regions, the squads.......are much more vibrant and attractive to fans with a smattering of overseas players thrown in.  Just sticking to one 'bloodline' (not the right term, but you know what I mean) or conveyor belt of players is just limiting ourselves as clubs, especially when that conveyor belt is currently spluttering and in need of a good service!  We just need to make sure we're buying better than what's already there because obviously then there would be no need if they are not an improvement on what we have.  But where there's shortage or need, and there's space within a quota, then go for it I say.


The standard of NWE players has declined, I remember when we used to do NIE V NWE players and the two teams were evenly matched, for a long time now the NIE players would easily beat the NWE team.

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Post by Old Man Fri May 27, 2022 6:57 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:

The good news from a Welsh Perspective is that South African sides will need to also deal with the process of all the extra European games next season and that will drain the resources.  Granted some of them are bringing more players in so they can deal with this.  But having 2 tournaments always causes most teams issues throughout a season.

i would think the Franchises would be aware of it since their entry into the URC. One can only hope they are preparingfor it now already. The Sharks do seem to be the ones recruiting more Springboks than the others currently.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat May 28, 2022 10:36 am

When the French aren't doing it, Sharks and Bulls are nicking SA's players. Stormers are probably my favourite team, I see they've brought in Dweba. Bulls are losing Walt Steenkamp to a Japanese club I think? They could bring on du Plessis to fill that void.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:57 pm

I see Sam Warburton is saying it as it is, taken from WOL :-

Former Wales captain Sam Warburton has doubled down on his criticism of the United Rugby Championship and South African teams' involvement in it. The two-time Lions skipper accused the then-PRO14 of "shamelessly" chasing the money in April 2021, as it was becoming ever more apparent the former Celtic league was expanding further into South Africa. “I’m not going to lie, I think the whole PRO14/Rainbow Cup has turned into a mish-mash competition,” he said at the time.

Now that the first URC season which included the Bulls, Lions, Sharks and Stormers is nearing completion, it is plain to see that they have faired emphatically better than the Welsh teams, with two of the aforementioned franchises making the semi-finals. In light of that, Warburton was challenged by outspoken South African pundit Mark Keohane, who sent him a tweet saying: "So @samwarburton_ you asked what value the SA teams add to @URCOfficial @URCOfficial_RSA after 1st month… but you have gone AWOL since. Perhaps @simonrug you can get an answer from Sam". Warburton was not going to shy away, replying: "Hi Mark. I’ll give you an answer no problem. There’s no doubting their ability. Fantastic rugby nation. League just doesn’t make sense and looks a random mix and match of clubs." wrote:

And thats just it in a nutshell for me. Does anyone else agree ?

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Post by Guest Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:27 pm

I've got no issue with the SA teams being in it based on ability. They're clearly very good, but we all knew that anyway. SA has always been one (if not THE) strongest rugby nations. My only criticism of them being on the URC is with their location, which is not their fault! My personal view is that global competition should be limited to world cups and not for club competitions. Europe is OK at a push. Just a personal issue I have with flying such large numbers of people long distance, the costs involved, fuel costs rising, global warming, carbon footprints, rising costs for flights, issues with international travel such as COVID, cancelled flights, etc......and with the cost of flights rising dramatically I can see a time soon where flying 40 people to SA will become prohibitive within a club's budget. Overall, in the current climate I think jetting round the world to play club games is a step too far and playing them in blocks isn't ideal (but I suppose better from an environmental point of view).

I'm far from an environmentalist though! It's just something that nags at me a little. But from a purely rugby point of view I think they've clearly added something to the league and are great to watch. But then, I've always been a fan of SA rugby so I'm a little biased. Used to love watching Super Rugby games in SA on the TV. Always looked so lovely and sunny, and perfect conditions for some lovely running rugby. A nice alternative to the rain and mud games we had/have here in the UK through winter.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:27 pm

I can see his point that SA, like England can and should play in a league of their own as they have enough teams and that Wales, Scotland and Ireland need a combined league.

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Post by Old Man Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:35 pm

I have advocated for SA to have their own league for yonks, to me, familiarity breeds contempt and because of our unique multicultural population have the stock to breed bigforwards, fast backs and highly skillful players.

The main issue for SARU not to have a SA own league is money. We cannot compete with European and Japanese salaries/currencies.

We may have a big population and plenty of talent, but our economy is and has been weakening over the past thirty years, GdP is shrinking with every passing year, and therefor the Rand is weakening more and more.

We have seen the obliteration of our depth over the past decade with the economy going the way it is, government is not doing their job, the only hope to save our talent and hopefully bring some of our best players back is earning hard currency through European competitions.

I wonder if those against SA pariticpation aren't secretly wishing for our Union not to be able to afford our own players, makes it easier for them to buy our stock under market value.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:43 pm

Old Man wrote:I wonder if those against SA pariticpation aren't secretly wishing for our Union not to be able to afford our own players, makes it easier for them to buy our stock under market value.

You know thats not what I think, as we have debated this subject until the cows have come home.

For me the league is just too much. The casual fan is hard to get hold of, as they do not know what the hell they are following. The fixtures are farcical, and the the league is hard work to follow, unless you are a die hard fan.

We need more rivalries, and to get that, you need more travelling fans, something that are like hens teeth in our league.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:51 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Old Man wrote:I wonder if those against SA pariticpation aren't secretly wishing for our Union not to be able to afford our own players, makes it easier for them to buy our stock under market value.

You know thats not what I think, as we have debated this subject until the cows have come home.

For me the league is just too much. The casual fan is hard to get hold of, as they do not know what the hell they are following. The fixtures are farcical, and the the league is hard work to follow, unless you are a die hard fan.

We need more rivalries, and to get that, you need more travelling fans, something that are like hens teeth in our league.

But there are no little or no regular season travelling fans in the Celtic League since 2001.   Wishing for something that has never existed in the league is pointless.
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Post by Old Man Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:08 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Old Man wrote:I wonder if those against SA pariticpation aren't secretly wishing for our Union not to be able to afford our own players, makes it easier for them to buy our stock under market value.

You know thats not what I think, as we have debated this subject until the cows have come home.

For me the league is just too much. The casual fan is hard to get hold of, as they do not know what the hell they are following. The fixtures are farcical, and the the league is hard work to follow, unless you are a die hard fan.

We need more rivalries, and to get that, you need more travelling fans, something that are like hens teeth in our league.

I wasn't suggesting anyone in particular, it is just a thought that crosses my mind

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Post by Pot Hale Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:09 pm

The Oracle wrote:I'm not one to knock Leinster like some, and i think what they've achieved is awesome and something we should all aspire to (although realistically probably cannot!).  But just reading that - 60 players they've played this season!  That's some squad size.  Bringing it back to this thread, the Welsh regions are cutting their squad sizes for next season due to the budget constraints.  Gonna be even tougher over a long campaign if playing against teams with squads that size and depth, although I appreciate I'm only comparing the Welsh teams to one other team.  Not sure the squad size of the rest.

It's not really accurate to say that Leinster's squad size is 60 players. Their senior squad this season numbered 46 players, including the returning and retiring Dan Leavy. They had 20 players in their academy, each in either their first, second or third year there.

Leinster's approach is to have the academy players playing and training with the senior squad all the time, subject to availability. The academy players receive €8k a year - they're either studying or working when not in Leinster's UCD HQ. Leinster pay their salaries. The academy structures and coaching panels are paid by the IRFU as part of their Elite Development programme.

Each year, the four academies promote on average 20 players. They have done so since the IRFU announced in 2015 that they were going to stop funding the hiring of overseas capped players and invest in the academies instead. They also invested in the fifth IRFU branch - the Irish Exiles and its IQ Rugby programme based in England, which identifies, coaches and helps develop already Irish-qualified players.

The IRFU makes about 80% of its income from the international game, but only spends about 12.5% on it. The provincial game is budgeted for 39%/40% of total income - c.€33/34m, of which €12/13m is re-charged to the provinces. It is its investment in the Elite Performance programme since 2012, and the appointment of a High Performance Director that it has really made strides.

What's generally not taken into account on the "funding" discussion is the ability of the provincial branches to generate their own income - c.€53m each year in total turnover. That determines their own player and coaching budget.
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Post by Guest Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:26 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I'm not one to knock Leinster like some, and i think what they've achieved is awesome and something we should all aspire to (although realistically probably cannot!).  But just reading that - 60 players they've played this season!  That's some squad size.  Bringing it back to this thread, the Welsh regions are cutting their squad sizes for next season due to the budget constraints.  Gonna be even tougher over a long campaign if playing against teams with squads that size and depth, although I appreciate I'm only comparing the Welsh teams to one other team.  Not sure the squad size of the rest.

It's not really accurate to say that Leinster's squad size is 60 players.   Their senior squad this season numbered 46 players, including the returning and retiring Dan Leavy.   They had 20 players in their academy, each in either their first, second or third year there.    

Leinster's approach is to have the academy players playing and training with the senior squad all the time, subject to availability.  The academy players receive €8k a year - they're either studying or working when not in Leinster's UCD HQ.  Leinster pay their salaries.    The academy structures and coaching panels are paid by the IRFU as part of their Elite Development programme.  

Each year, the four academies promote on average 20 players.  They have done so since the IRFU announced in 2015 that they were going to stop funding the hiring of overseas capped players and invest in the academies instead.  They also invested in the fifth IRFU branch - the Irish Exiles and its IQ Rugby programme based in England, which identifies, coaches and helps develop already Irish-qualified players.  

The IRFU makes about 80% of its income from the international game, but only spends about 12.5% on it.   The provincial game is budgeted for 39%/40% of total income - c.€33/34m, of which €12/13m is re-charged to the provinces.   It is its investment in the Elite Performance programme since 2012, and the appointment of a High Performance Director that it has really made strides.

What's generally not taken into account on the "funding" discussion is the ability of the provincial branches to generate their own income - c.€53m each year in total turnover.  That determines their own player and coaching budget.

I was merely responding to the article that stated a player (forget his name) became the 60th player to appear for Leinster this season. Call it what you want but that’s 60 players, regardless of where they come from. And good enough not to lose to other teams in the league when they play these guys either. So my point is simple: it is difficult to compete with a team who can put out 60 players without weakening by much, when your own squad is shrinking in size. Not a criticism. An observation. And a little admiration.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:45 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I'm not one to knock Leinster like some, and i think what they've achieved is awesome and something we should all aspire to (although realistically probably cannot!).  But just reading that - 60 players they've played this season!  That's some squad size.  Bringing it back to this thread, the Welsh regions are cutting their squad sizes for next season due to the budget constraints.  Gonna be even tougher over a long campaign if playing against teams with squads that size and depth, although I appreciate I'm only comparing the Welsh teams to one other team.  Not sure the squad size of the rest.

It's not really accurate to say that Leinster's squad size is 60 players.   Their senior squad this season numbered 46 players, including the returning and retiring Dan Leavy.   They had 20 players in their academy, each in either their first, second or third year there.    

Leinster's approach is to have the academy players playing and training with the senior squad all the time, subject to availability.  The academy players receive €8k a year - they're either studying or working when not in Leinster's UCD HQ.  Leinster pay their salaries.    The academy structures and coaching panels are paid by the IRFU as part of their Elite Development programme.  

Each year, the four academies promote on average 20 players.  They have done so since the IRFU announced in 2015 that they were going to stop funding the hiring of overseas capped players and invest in the academies instead.  They also invested in the fifth IRFU branch - the Irish Exiles and its IQ Rugby programme based in England, which identifies, coaches and helps develop already Irish-qualified players.  

The IRFU makes about 80% of its income from the international game, but only spends about 12.5% on it.   The provincial game is budgeted for 39%/40% of total income - c.€33/34m, of which €12/13m is re-charged to the provinces.   It is its investment in the Elite Performance programme since 2012, and the appointment of a High Performance Director that it has really made strides.

What's generally not taken into account on the "funding" discussion is the ability of the provincial branches to generate their own income - c.€53m each year in total turnover.  That determines their own player and coaching budget.

I was merely responding to the article that stated a player (forget his name) became the 60th player to appear for Leinster this season. Call it what you want but that’s 60 players, regardless of where they come from. And good enough not to lose to other teams in the league when they play these guys either. So my point is simple: it is difficult to compete with a team who can put out 60 players without weakening by much, when your own squad is shrinking in size. Not a criticism. An observation. And a little admiration.

Well yes you’re right. In a sense. But those 46th-60th players played in matches that they did lose - to Irish, Welsh, Scottish and South African teams.
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Post by Guest Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:57 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I'm not one to knock Leinster like some, and i think what they've achieved is awesome and something we should all aspire to (although realistically probably cannot!).  But just reading that - 60 players they've played this season!  That's some squad size.  Bringing it back to this thread, the Welsh regions are cutting their squad sizes for next season due to the budget constraints.  Gonna be even tougher over a long campaign if playing against teams with squads that size and depth, although I appreciate I'm only comparing the Welsh teams to one other team.  Not sure the squad size of the rest.

It's not really accurate to say that Leinster's squad size is 60 players.   Their senior squad this season numbered 46 players, including the returning and retiring Dan Leavy.   They had 20 players in their academy, each in either their first, second or third year there.    

Leinster's approach is to have the academy players playing and training with the senior squad all the time, subject to availability.  The academy players receive €8k a year - they're either studying or working when not in Leinster's UCD HQ.  Leinster pay their salaries.    The academy structures and coaching panels are paid by the IRFU as part of their Elite Development programme.  

Each year, the four academies promote on average 20 players.  They have done so since the IRFU announced in 2015 that they were going to stop funding the hiring of overseas capped players and invest in the academies instead.  They also invested in the fifth IRFU branch - the Irish Exiles and its IQ Rugby programme based in England, which identifies, coaches and helps develop already Irish-qualified players.  

The IRFU makes about 80% of its income from the international game, but only spends about 12.5% on it.   The provincial game is budgeted for 39%/40% of total income - c.€33/34m, of which €12/13m is re-charged to the provinces.   It is its investment in the Elite Performance programme since 2012, and the appointment of a High Performance Director that it has really made strides.

What's generally not taken into account on the "funding" discussion is the ability of the provincial branches to generate their own income - c.€53m each year in total turnover.  That determines their own player and coaching budget.

I was merely responding to the article that stated a player (forget his name) became the 60th player to appear for Leinster this season. Call it what you want but that’s 60 players, regardless of where they come from. And good enough not to lose to other teams in the league when they play these guys either. So my point is simple: it is difficult to compete with a team who can put out 60 players without weakening by much, when your own squad is shrinking in size. Not a criticism. An observation. And a little admiration.

Well yes you’re right.  In a sense. But those 46th-60th players played in matches that they did lose - to Irish, Welsh, Scottish and South African teams.  

But also, over the season came out topping the league while also going all the way in the Euro Cup and perhaps/probably also the league playoff finals. Fantastic depth! So those losses didn’t dent their season. Not many teams can expect to win absolutely every game. So a loss or two is not unexpected.

Or do you want me to say that Leinster are sh*t and they can’t compete in the league or Europe with the 60 players at their disposal?! Wink

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Post by Pot Hale Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:13 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I'm not one to knock Leinster like some, and i think what they've achieved is awesome and something we should all aspire to (although realistically probably cannot!).  But just reading that - 60 players they've played this season!  That's some squad size.  Bringing it back to this thread, the Welsh regions are cutting their squad sizes for next season due to the budget constraints.  Gonna be even tougher over a long campaign if playing against teams with squads that size and depth, although I appreciate I'm only comparing the Welsh teams to one other team.  Not sure the squad size of the rest.

It's not really accurate to say that Leinster's squad size is 60 players.   Their senior squad this season numbered 46 players, including the returning and retiring Dan Leavy.   They had 20 players in their academy, each in either their first, second or third year there.    

Leinster's approach is to have the academy players playing and training with the senior squad all the time, subject to availability.  The academy players receive €8k a year - they're either studying or working when not in Leinster's UCD HQ.  Leinster pay their salaries.    The academy structures and coaching panels are paid by the IRFU as part of their Elite Development programme.  

Each year, the four academies promote on average 20 players.  They have done so since the IRFU announced in 2015 that they were going to stop funding the hiring of overseas capped players and invest in the academies instead.  They also invested in the fifth IRFU branch - the Irish Exiles and its IQ Rugby programme based in England, which identifies, coaches and helps develop already Irish-qualified players.  

The IRFU makes about 80% of its income from the international game, but only spends about 12.5% on it.   The provincial game is budgeted for 39%/40% of total income - c.€33/34m, of which €12/13m is re-charged to the provinces.   It is its investment in the Elite Performance programme since 2012, and the appointment of a High Performance Director that it has really made strides.

What's generally not taken into account on the "funding" discussion is the ability of the provincial branches to generate their own income - c.€53m each year in total turnover.  That determines their own player and coaching budget.

I was merely responding to the article that stated a player (forget his name) became the 60th player to appear for Leinster this season. Call it what you want but that’s 60 players, regardless of where they come from. And good enough not to lose to other teams in the league when they play these guys either. So my point is simple: it is difficult to compete with a team who can put out 60 players without weakening by much, when your own squad is shrinking in size. Not a criticism. An observation. And a little admiration.

Well yes you’re right.  In a sense. But those 46th-60th players played in matches that they did lose - to Irish, Welsh, Scottish and South African teams.  

But also, over the season came out topping the league while also going all the way in the Euro Cup and perhaps/probably also the league playoffs. Fantastic depth! So those losses didn’t dent their season. Not many teams can expect to win absolutely every game. So a loss or two is not unexpected.

Or do you want me to say that Leinster are sh*t and they can’t compete in the league or Europe with the 60 players at their disposal?! Wink

Not at all, Oracle. I might say instead that it's not impossible for other teams to follow suit. The SA teams can rely on upcoming players to be developed and tested in the robust Currie Cup. And in the specific context of Welsh regions and the WRU, that the regions might be better served in the long run by the union investing in better academy structures if the regions are to persuade them to invest further at all.

I should add that the Irish academy players are all playing for clubs in the amateur AIL league, similar to some of the young players who come through from the Welsh Premiership.
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Post by Guest Tue Jun 07, 2022 7:33 pm

Absolutely, Pot. Following suit is what I’ve always advocated, or at least aspire to emulate Leinster. Hence my comment about me not being one of Leinster’s ‘knockers’. But the reality is that the others can’t (currently). But yes the aspiration should be to do that. And I think that’s where the arguments start because some will argue that to get to that level you need greater investment, the amazing academy facilities that Leinster academy just got for example, which is easier with a union in a symbiotic relationship with it’s pro teams as opposed to one constantly at war with its clubs Smile Plus the ability to generate so much income themselves. Which again is perhaps not something that all clubs in the league have the capacity to do to the same extent as Leinster. But something we can all work towards trying to achieve.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:42 am

Pot Hale wrote:
What's generally not taken into account on the "funding" discussion is the ability of the provincial branches to generate their own income

How much income do Connacht generate per year?

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Post by LordDowlais Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:16 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
What's generally not taken into account on the "funding" discussion is the ability of the provincial branches to generate their own income

How much income do Connacht generate per year?

Or Munster ?

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Post by LordDowlais Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:35 pm

The Oracle wrote:Plus the ability to generate so much income themselves. Which again is perhaps not something that all clubs in the league have the capacity to do to the same extent as Leinster. But something we can all work towards trying to achieve.

Thats easy to come by when Leinster are based in a city with 1.25 million people living there and no pro football to contend with.

It's the same with Ulster, they have a whole country behind them they do, and again, no pro football to contend with.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:41 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
What's generally not taken into account on the "funding" discussion is the ability of the provincial branches to generate their own income

How much income do Connacht generate per year?

Didn't you start this conversation on a thread of your own? Pretty sure that, as always, you've pretty much ignored everything said to you. Which leads me to ask why you are starting it here?

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:45 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Plus the ability to generate so much income themselves. Which again is perhaps not something that all clubs in the league have the capacity to do to the same extent as Leinster. But something we can all work towards trying to achieve.

Thats easy to come by when Leinster are based in a city with 1.25 million people living there and no pro football to contend with.

It's the same with Ulster, they have a whole country behind them they do, and again, no pro football to contend with.

Is it only now "no pro football to contend with" ? I thought this was always the case, although football may be slightly more popular now in Wales than previously. The Irish like football too, but in the premier league. They also have their other sports like Gaelic football, that seems to be popular over there. Generating income would be easy to come by for Leinster though given how successful they are and where they are based. I can't see how it's sustainable if there are only a limited number of contracts, talk about producing too many quality players!

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:46 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
What's generally not taken into account on the "funding" discussion is the ability of the provincial branches to generate their own income

How much income do Connacht generate per year?

Didn't you start this conversation on a thread of your own?

No.

Pretty sure that, as always, you've pretty much ignored everything said to you.

Ok, thank you for your input.

Which leads me to ask why you are starting it here?

Because I'd like to know the answer.

Thank you for taking such a valued interest in my posts.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Plus the ability to generate so much income themselves. Which again is perhaps not something that all clubs in the league have the capacity to do to the same extent as Leinster. But something we can all work towards trying to achieve.

Thats easy to come by when Leinster are based in a city with 1.25 million people living there and no pro football to contend with.

It's the same with Ulster, they have a whole country behind them they do, and again, no pro football to contend with.
I wouldn't say no pro football, I'd say the likes of Bohs and Shamrock Rovers would have similar if not bigger support than Connacht rugby have. But yes Leinster are in prime location.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:48 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote: Bohs and Shamrock Rovers

Not really quite the same as Cardiff and Swansea who have both played in the Premier League in recent seasons.

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Post by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:52 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Plus the ability to generate so much income themselves. Which again is perhaps not something that all clubs in the league have the capacity to do to the same extent as Leinster. But something we can all work towards trying to achieve.

Thats easy to come by when Leinster are based in a city with 1.25 million people living there and no pro football to contend with.

It's the same with Ulster, they have a whole country behind them they do, and again, no pro football to contend with.


Did you just ignore that line in my message that you quoted?!

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Post by Pot Hale Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Plus the ability to generate so much income themselves. Which again is perhaps not something that all clubs in the league have the capacity to do to the same extent as Leinster. But something we can all work towards trying to achieve.

Thats easy to come by when Leinster are based in a city with 1.25 million people living there and no pro football to contend with.

It's the same with Ulster, they have a whole country behind them they do, and again, no pro football to contend with.

But they do have GAA football in Dublin to contend with. GAA Dublin has three times as many clubs as rugby has in Dublin. In Leinster, there are 71 rugby clubs, compared to 834 GAA clubs.
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Post by Pot Hale Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:29 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
What's generally not taken into account on the "funding" discussion is the ability of the provincial branches to generate their own income

How much income do Connacht generate per year?

€7.263m - IIRC that includes the €3.4m that each province receives from the IRFU from the URC/EPCR Competition Income to part-pay provincial player salaries. Connacht must pay the balance from their own income of gates and sponsors. Bundee Aki is their only central contract player, so he's not in their playing budget. Everyone else is, hence the lower-quality, short-term or rolling one-year contracts they often have in place.
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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:41 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
What's generally not taken into account on the "funding" discussion is the ability of the provincial branches to generate their own income

How much income do Connacht generate per year?

€6.263m

Thanks. For Welsh rugby context, that €6.263m is just over a third of what the Scarlets are able to generate in revenue per year. So that's around 11% of the total income generated by the 4 provinces.

I think, given you've linked the provinces income generation to their "funding", we can see just how much the other 3 get in "funding" from their combined €46.8 generated income, albeit a separate 'pot' of money. Huge numbers, and good on them. Great insight into the resources available to Irish rugby.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:30 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
What's generally not taken into account on the "funding" discussion is the ability of the provincial branches to generate their own income

How much income do Connacht generate per year?

€6.263m

Thanks. For Welsh rugby context, that €6.263m is just over a third of what the Scarlets are able to generate in revenue per year. So that's around 11% of the total income generated by the 4 provinces.

I think, given you've linked the provinces income generation to their "funding", we can see just how much the other 3 get in "funding" from their combined €46.8 generated income, albeit a separate 'pot' of money. Huge numbers, and good on them. Great insight into the resources available to Irish rugby.

That €6.263m figure was not accurate. See my post above.

I suppose the point is that the 4 provinces get an equal amount of money from the IRFU as part-payment of salaries. It is then up to each province to generate additional income to determine their playing budgets and be able pay back their portion of the player salaries to HQ. As Mick Dawson, outgoing CEO of Leinster, said in his recent interview: "Our salary cap is ourselves and what we can afford and prove to the IRFU [that] we have the funds to pay the player and so forth. We were able to set our own salary cap by the revenue we generated, with good people and a bit of vision."

So the IRFU spends approx 39-40% of total income (c.€33-34m) on provincial game, in line with their strategies of the last 7-8 years. Test game gets approx 12.5% (c.€10-11m). It relies on/requires the four provinces to generate their own funds to pay for the costs of running the branches at amateur and pro level, including contributing to the cost of the pro player/management/coaching salaries.

Connacht branch is the smallest of the four provinces in terms of playing numbers, number of counties at branch level, number of clubs, attendances, etc. Leinster branch, in contrast, has the most counties, most clubs, greater population, etc. Clearly, it is in a much better position to generate greater revenues for itself in order to set its greater playing budget.

Not sure what your point about Scarlets is and why you're comparing them to Connacht. Surely a better point of comparison would be the Dragons as the two lowest turnover teams.

Leinster's turnover is c. €18.5m; Munster c. €17m, and Ulster in 2020 had income of £10.2m IIRC, - all including their IRFU grants.
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Post by LordDowlais Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:36 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Plus the ability to generate so much income themselves. Which again is perhaps not something that all clubs in the league have the capacity to do to the same extent as Leinster. But something we can all work towards trying to achieve.

Thats easy to come by when Leinster are based in a city with 1.25 million people living there and no pro football to contend with.

It's the same with Ulster, they have a whole country behind them they do, and again, no pro football to contend with.

Is it only now "no pro football to contend with" ? I thought this was always the case, although football may be slightly more popular now in Wales than previously. The Irish like football too, but in the premier league. They also have their other sports like Gaelic football, that seems to be popular over there. Generating income would be easy to come by for Leinster though given how successful they are and where they are based. I can't see how it's sustainable if there are only a limited number of contracts, talk about producing too many quality players!

Hey Mikey, perhaps you need to do your research, the Gaelic calendar runs outside of the rugby season, and the Irish provinces are not in direct competition with any football team, Ospreys, Cardiff and Newport have football teams in the same city as them. OK

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Post by LordDowlais Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:40 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Plus the ability to generate so much income themselves. Which again is perhaps not something that all clubs in the league have the capacity to do to the same extent as Leinster. But something we can all work towards trying to achieve.

Thats easy to come by when Leinster are based in a city with 1.25 million people living there and no pro football to contend with.

It's the same with Ulster, they have a whole country behind them they do, and again, no pro football to contend with.

But they do have GAA football in Dublin to contend with.   GAA Dublin has three times as many clubs as rugby has in Dublin.   In Leinster, there are 71 rugby clubs, compared to 834 GAA clubs.  

Yes, I agree, but rugby is played at a different time of the year. Look, I am not knocking it, I would love to be in a place where I could support good competitive sport all year around. Imagine being able to watch your rugby team at one part of the year, and when thats finished, you had another team to support in GAA to keep you occupied until the rugby starts again, must be pretty decent for you. OK

https://www.gaa.ie/news/gaa-publish-master-fixtures-schedule-for-2022/

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:11 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
What's generally not taken into account on the "funding" discussion is the ability of the provincial branches to generate their own income

How much income do Connacht generate per year?

€6.263m

Thanks. For Welsh rugby context, that €6.263m is just over a third of what the Scarlets are able to generate in revenue per year. So that's around 11% of the total income generated by the 4 provinces.

I think, given you've linked the provinces income generation to their "funding", we can see just how much the other 3 get in "funding" from their combined €46.8 generated income, albeit a separate 'pot' of money. Huge numbers, and good on them. Great insight into the resources available to Irish rugby.

That €6.263m figure was not accurate.  See my post above.  

I suppose the point is that the 4 provinces get an equal amount of money from the IRFU as part-payment of salaries.   It is then up to each province to generate additional income to determine their playing budgets and be able pay back their portion of the player salaries to HQ.   As Mick Dawson, outgoing CEO of Leinster, said in his recent interview: "Our salary cap is ourselves and what we can afford and prove to the IRFU [that] we have the funds to pay the player and so forth. We were able to set our own salary cap by the revenue we generated, with good people and a bit of vision."

So the IRFU spends approx 39-40% of total income (c.€33-34m) on provincial game, in line with their strategies of the last 7-8 years.   Test game gets approx 12.5% (c.€10-11m).    It relies on/requires the four provinces to generate their own funds to pay for the costs of running the branches at amateur and pro level, including contributing to the cost of the pro player/management/coaching salaries.  

Connacht branch is the smallest of the four provinces in terms of playing numbers, number of counties at branch level, number of clubs, attendances, etc.   Leinster branch, in contrast, has the most counties, most clubs, greater population, etc.  Clearly, it is in a much better position to generate greater revenues for itself in order to set its greater playing budget.

Not sure what your point about Scarlets is and why you're comparing them to Connacht.  Surely a better point of comparison would be the Dragons as the two lowest turnover teams.

Leinster's turnover is c. €18.5m; Munster c. €17m, and Ulster in 2020 had income of £10.2m IIRC, - all including their IRFU grants.

I use the Scarlets figures as they're the only ones I know off the top of my head.

So Leinster turnover is £15.5m.

Before covid, the Scarlets turnover was £14.5m

Something not quite adding up here.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:20 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Plus the ability to generate so much income themselves. Which again is perhaps not something that all clubs in the league have the capacity to do to the same extent as Leinster. But something we can all work towards trying to achieve.

Thats easy to come by when Leinster are based in a city with 1.25 million people living there and no pro football to contend with.

It's the same with Ulster, they have a whole country behind them they do, and again, no pro football to contend with.

But they do have GAA football in Dublin to contend with.   GAA Dublin has three times as many clubs as rugby has in Dublin.   In Leinster, there are 71 rugby clubs, compared to 834 GAA clubs.  

Yes, I agree, but rugby is played at a different time of the year. Look, I am not knocking it, I would love to be in a place where I could support good competitive sport all year around. Imagine being able to watch your rugby team at one part of the year, and when thats finished, you had another team to support in GAA to keep you occupied until the rugby starts again, must be pretty decent for you. OK

https://www.gaa.ie/news/gaa-publish-master-fixtures-schedule-for-2022/

Did you read the fixtures schedule? GAA happens during rugby season.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Plus the ability to generate so much income themselves. Which again is perhaps not something that all clubs in the league have the capacity to do to the same extent as Leinster. But something we can all work towards trying to achieve.

Thats easy to come by when Leinster are based in a city with 1.25 million people living there and no pro football to contend with.

It's the same with Ulster, they have a whole country behind them they do, and again, no pro football to contend with.

Is it only now "no pro football to contend with" ? I thought this was always the case, although football may be slightly more popular now in Wales than previously. The Irish like football too, but in the premier league. They also have their other sports like Gaelic football, that seems to be popular over there. Generating income would be easy to come by for Leinster though given how successful they are and where they are based. I can't see how it's sustainable if there are only a limited number of contracts, talk about producing too many quality players!

Hey Mikey, perhaps you need to do your research, the Gaelic calendar runs outside of the rugby season, and the Irish provinces are not in direct competition with any football team, Ospreys, Cardiff and Newport have football teams in the same city as them. OK
You're confusing the all Ireland championship with the "gaelic calendar" Gaelic is played and watched almost all year round.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:23 pm

Yes I noticed they overlapped a bit. OK

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Post by Pot Hale Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:28 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
What's generally not taken into account on the "funding" discussion is the ability of the provincial branches to generate their own income

How much income do Connacht generate per year?

€6.263m

Thanks. For Welsh rugby context, that €6.263m is just over a third of what the Scarlets are able to generate in revenue per year. So that's around 11% of the total income generated by the 4 provinces.

I think, given you've linked the provinces income generation to their "funding", we can see just how much the other 3 get in "funding" from their combined €46.8 generated income, albeit a separate 'pot' of money. Huge numbers, and good on them. Great insight into the resources available to Irish rugby.

That €6.263m figure was not accurate.  See my post above.  

I suppose the point is that the 4 provinces get an equal amount of money from the IRFU as part-payment of salaries.   It is then up to each province to generate additional income to determine their playing budgets and be able pay back their portion of the player salaries to HQ.   As Mick Dawson, outgoing CEO of Leinster, said in his recent interview: "Our salary cap is ourselves and what we can afford and prove to the IRFU [that] we have the funds to pay the player and so forth. We were able to set our own salary cap by the revenue we generated, with good people and a bit of vision."

So the IRFU spends approx 39-40% of total income (c.€33-34m) on provincial game, in line with their strategies of the last 7-8 years.   Test game gets approx 12.5% (c.€10-11m).    It relies on/requires the four provinces to generate their own funds to pay for the costs of running the branches at amateur and pro level, including contributing to the cost of the pro player/management/coaching salaries.  

Connacht branch is the smallest of the four provinces in terms of playing numbers, number of counties at branch level, number of clubs, attendances, etc.   Leinster branch, in contrast, has the most counties, most clubs, greater population, etc.  Clearly, it is in a much better position to generate greater revenues for itself in order to set its greater playing budget.

Not sure what your point about Scarlets is and why you're comparing them to Connacht.  Surely a better point of comparison would be the Dragons as the two lowest turnover teams.

Leinster's turnover is c. €18.5m; Munster c. €17m, and Ulster in 2020 had income of £10.2m IIRC, - all including their IRFU grants.

I use the Scarlets figures as they're the only ones I know off the top of my head.

So Leinster turnover is £15.5m.

Before covid, the Scarlets turnover was £14.5m

Something not quite adding up here.

What’s not adding up for you?  How much of Scarlets income comes from gates/sponsors?   Do they have any private backers supporting player salaries or providing commercial agreements?  That wouldn’t always have to be part of the Branch’s revenue.  Do the Scarlets have 6-7 players on central contracts that are paid directly by the WRU?  

Remember, the 34m includes approx 7m for 14 central contracts.  Not in provincial budgets.
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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:38 pm

Pot Hale wrote:

How much of Scarlets income comes from gates/sponsors?

£4.6m

Do they have any private backers supporting player salaries or providing commercial agreements?  That wouldn’t always have to be part of the Branch’s revenue.  

No, they've mostly self sufficient now. It certainly isn't in that turnover figure.

Do the Scarlets have 6-7 players on central contracts that are paid directly by the WRU?
 
No. The players on the 80/20 players are all paid directly from the regions turnover as I understand it, and I think the 80 is taken out of the final WRU funding formulae each year.

Remember, the 34m comprises approx 7m for 14 central contracts.  Not in provincial budgets.

So Leinster theoretically turnover that £15.5m, plus the central contract salary money?

That £15.5m is a bit misleading of that's the case, as it doesn't consider the what 8 or 9 Leinster players on big bucks from the IRFU?

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Post by Pot Hale Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:57 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

How much of Scarlets income comes from gates/sponsors?

£4.6m

Do they have any private backers supporting player salaries or providing commercial agreements?  That wouldn’t always have to be part of the Branch’s revenue.  

No, they've mostly self sufficient now. It certainly isn't in that turnover figure.

Do the Scarlets have 6-7 players on central contracts that are paid directly by the WRU?
 
No. The players on the 80/20 players are all paid directly from the regions turnover as I understand it, and I think the 80 is taken out of the final WRU funding formulae each year.

Remember, the 34m comprises approx 7m for 14 central contracts.  Not in provincial budgets.

So Leinster theoretically turnover that £15.5m, plus the central contract salary money?

That £15.5m is a bit misleading of that's the case, as it doesn't consider the what 8 or 9 Leinster players on big bucks from the IRFU?

The central contracts sit on the IRFU's budget, not the provincial budgets, as everyone is aware of. Leinster will have 6 of them next season - Porter, Furlong, Ryan, Sexton, Henshaw, Ringrose. Cian Healy was on central this season, but will shift over to Leinster provincial contract for his final season in 22/23. His cost will be in Leinster budget.

That leaves c. €27/28m for players on provincial contracts. Which is paid from Competition Income and Provincial Gates/Sponsors.
Clearly, if all the central contract players were moved on to the provincial budgets, that would impact their squads, if their income didn't increase proportionately.

The €18.5m turnover for Leinster is not misleading. That's what they generate/receive in income.
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Post by Pot Hale Wed Jun 08, 2022 5:02 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Yes I noticed they overlapped a bit. OK

Indeed - they overlap from October to July. Very Happy
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Post by MichaelT Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:12 am

Pot Hale wrote:What’s not adding up for you?  How much of Scarlets income comes from gates/sponsors?   Do they have any private backers supporting player salaries or providing commercial agreements?  That wouldn’t always have to be part of the Branch’s revenue.  Do the Scarlets have 6-7 players on central contracts that are paid directly by the WRU?  

Remember, the 34m includes approx 7m for 14 central contracts.  Not in provincial budgets.

I don't understand this bit. This reads like monies received specifically for the purpose of paying employees doesn't need to be included as income in the accounts of a company? Not sure thats legal. If you receive a grant from Enterprise Ireland for employing staff you still have to recognise it as income in your financial returns for example. Not sure what the difference is.

If players are receiving payment because of their employment as rugby players then it would be included in the English salary cap as Saracens found out.



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Post by RugbyFan100 Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:52 am

MichaelT wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:What’s not adding up for you?  How much of Scarlets income comes from gates/sponsors?   Do they have any private backers supporting player salaries or providing commercial agreements?  That wouldn’t always have to be part of the Branch’s revenue.  Do the Scarlets have 6-7 players on central contracts that are paid directly by the WRU?  

Remember, the 34m includes approx 7m for 14 central contracts.  Not in provincial budgets.

I don't understand this bit. This reads like monies received specifically for the purpose of paying employees doesn't need to be included as income in the accounts of a company? Not sure thats legal. If you receive a grant from Enterprise Ireland for employing staff you still have to recognise it as income in your financial returns for example. Not sure what the difference is.

If players are receiving payment because of their employment as rugby players then it would be included in the English salary cap as Saracens found out.



Exactly. They get round it because the IRFU isn't incorporated or whatever the term is. Pot Hale claims that Munster's turnover is €17m, but that doesn't include the €€€ that the IRFU pays for their central contracted players or the €€€ that the private owner paid for the 2 South African World Cup Winners Snyman and de Allende. What happens if that private backer decided to fund 10 Munster players? Millions of €€€€ not accounted for in the IRFU accounts.

I have seen more transparent dog turds.

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