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Premiership Final

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Soul Requiem
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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 17 Jun 2022, 12:09 pm

STARTING XV
15 Freddie Steward [55]
14 Chris Ashton [11]
13 Matías Moroni [35]
12 Guy Porter [44]
11 Harry Potter [40]
10 George Ford [128]
9 Richard Wigglesworth [36]
1 Ellis Genge (c) [110]
2 Julián Montoya [26]
3 Dan Cole [289]
4 Ollie Chessum [30]
5 Calum Green [90]
6 Hanro Liebenberg (vc) [58]
7 Tommy Reffell [77]
8 Jasper Wiese [44]

REPLACEMENTS
16 Charlie Clare [51]
17 Nephi Leatigaga [67]
18 Joe Heyes [100]
19 Harry Wells [155]
20 George Martin [38]
21 Ben Youngs [281]
22 Freddie Burns [102]
23 Matt Scott [46]

No Nadolo is a blow and it looks like we are going to go to the air a lot with Wiggy starting and Youngs benching.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 17 Jun 2022, 12:10 pm

Saracens Men:

1 Mako Vunipola

2 Jamie George

3 Vincent Koch

4 Maro Itoje

5 Nick Isiekwe

6 Theo McFarland

7 Ben Earl

8 Billy Vunipola

9 Aled Davies

10 Owen Farrell (c)

11 Sean Maitland

12 Nick Tompkins

13 Elliot Daly

14 Max Malins

15 Alex Goode

Replacements:

16 Kapeli Pifeleti

17 Eroni Mawi

18 Alec Clarey

19 Jackson Wray

20 Andy Christie

21 Ivan van Zyl

22 Duncan Taylor

23 Alex Lozowski

Having somehow avoided a citing Farrell leads the Sarries out.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 17 Jun 2022, 12:54 pm

Not overly surprised to see Wigglesworth come in but a bit of a kick to the teeth of van Poorvliet. Leicester have to go after Vunipola and lineouts both look class from that.

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Post by Geordie Fri 17 Jun 2022, 1:43 pm

Is JVP injured for Tigers. Very curious why Nadolo is not there.

I see a Saracens win tomorrow....

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 17 Jun 2022, 2:14 pm

I don't think JVP is injured. He's mature enough to understand it's not a slight on him it's clearly a tactic for the game. I mean England's go to 9 for the last decade is on the bench we are obviously looking to control things from minute 1, expect plenty of kicking with Tigers looking to control territory and force Sarries to expel energy getting out their own half.

Nadolo presumably isn't fully fit, he's definitely a loss. Scott will be used to add some injection of attacking intent in the second half I guess.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 17 Jun 2022, 6:13 pm

No whinging now, boys.  Just go out and pound the snot out of them until the pitch flows with body parts.

That's my best approximation of Henry V.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 17 Jun 2022, 10:50 pm

Nadolo's been a bit out of favour recently. I'd start him though. His defence has issues but not that much more than Ashton in reality and he can score tries from nowhere.

Ashton has been a good signing but was woefully out of position defensively against Leinster at times. I think that game showed that whilst impressive for a 35-year-old winger who was practically retired he is still a 35-year-old winger that was practically retired. His game always had weaknesses and still does. I'm very happy he's still at Tigers next season but would prefer to gamble on Nadolo than gamble on Ashton.

Very pleased that Scott is in the 23. Porter is a work in progress at 12 so that is an important tactical move in my opinion.

Leatigaga, Heyes, Wells and Martin on the bench suggests just brute force in the second half.

Tough on JvP if fit and not the selection I'd have made. Wigglesworth has had some very good and some fairly poor performances this season. Hopefully he clicks against his old club.

Sarries favourites for me as they've been there and done it.

I fear the pairing of Isiekwe and Itoje could cause some lineout woes too. Isiekwe alone caused a lot of issues earlier in the year. If they do then Tigers might really struggle to get a foothold, then just fail to get over the gain line against the Sarries defence. Despite the improvements Tigers have some limitations still and looking toothless against strong defences when we don't get set-piece dominance can be one of those limitations. I expect Sarries to kick for touch early on to take Steward's high ball work out the game and test that lineout under pressure.

I'll be interested to see how the scrum goes as the game wears on. Pifeleti, Mawi and Carey is a world away from Singleton, Barrington and Lamositele coming off the bench. Heyes is a very good TH in his own right and I'd expect a fresh Heyes to really attack a tiring Mako or a fresh Mawi.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 17 Jun 2022, 10:52 pm

One further point on Nadolo vs Ashton on the wing.

If I was Borthwick and saw that Sarries back three I'd be very tempted to consider a last minute change. Nadolo's issues defensively are largely against quick wingers as he doesn't have the same acceleration he used to, hence the turning circle of a drunk oil tanker. Whilst that's obviously a very good Sarries back three it isn't the quickest one.

Not something I'm expecting to happen, rather just thinking out loud.

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Post by tigertattie Sat 18 Jun 2022, 3:32 pm

Why have we returned to decisions being made based on the outcome?

Just because the offender was a weakling should not mitigate the action
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Post by Heaf Sat 18 Jun 2022, 3:32 pm

Is is just me or has the threshold for a red card changed in the last two weeks?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 18 Jun 2022, 3:43 pm

Heaf wrote:Is is just me or has the threshold for a red card changed in the last two weeks?

Threshold read bottling it.

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Post by Poorfour Sat 18 Jun 2022, 4:20 pm

Have to admit that I was a bit baffled by the call in the ground. He seemed to be indicating that it was by a very small margin, but not clear why. Looked like a straight red to me
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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 18 Jun 2022, 4:23 pm

This is a real kick fest

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Post by tigertattie Sat 18 Jun 2022, 4:39 pm

Quinns vs saints would have been a much better final I think.
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Post by tigertattie Sat 18 Jun 2022, 4:45 pm

Good grief. Hopefully this doesn’t go to extra time
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Post by Heaf Sat 18 Jun 2022, 4:58 pm

Congrats Tigers - thought Sarries would be too strong but Borthwick got the strategy just right ...

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 18 Jun 2022, 5:06 pm

GET IN!

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat 18 Jun 2022, 5:08 pm

I recall Chris Ashton saying he got a Premiership winner's medal last year, because he was at Quins just long enough during the season to qualify (though he didn't think he deserved it). He's got one this year now, which makes him a rare back-to-back winner with different teams.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 18 Jun 2022, 5:16 pm

Congrats to Sam and all the other Tigers’ fans. Leicester are finally back.

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Post by Geordie Sat 18 Jun 2022, 5:36 pm

Well done Tigers....sadly missed the game.

Does that put a bigger RFU target on Borthwicks back?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 18 Jun 2022, 5:36 pm

Tense game and a deserved win for Tigers....their defence was immense.

Congratulations boys!

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 18 Jun 2022, 5:44 pm

Pleased that Leicester won but boy did Barnes bottle that Davies decision, with the current laws that's a red all day every day.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 18 Jun 2022, 5:50 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Congrats to Sam and all the other Tigers’ fans. Leicester are finally back.

Kind of. Been a great season for them but they are now losing some key players.

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Post by Heaf Sat 18 Jun 2022, 5:51 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Pleased that Leicester won but boy did Barnes bottle that Davies decision, with the current laws that's a red all day every day.

Indeed, although I guess in the end that makes it all the more satisfying for Tigers as nobody can now say a red card cost Sarries the match ...

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 18 Jun 2022, 5:59 pm

Heaf wrote:Congrats Tigers - thought Sarries would be too strong but Borthwick got the strategy just right ...

My thoughts exactly I thought Sarries would score a last minute try but it was no to be.
Well played tigers. and well deserved as well.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 18 Jun 2022, 6:31 pm

lostinwales wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Congrats to Sam and all the other Tigers’ fans. Leicester are finally back.

Kind of. Been a great season for them but they are now losing some key players.

It's been a phenomenal season and the lads have played out their skin for most of it. Losing Gengey and Ford is going to hurt though Burns has been exceptional when called upon, I was against bringing him back but have happily eaten my works (repeatedly). Ford being replaced by Pollard next season should be fine. Genge is the massive loss as he's such a huge presence on and off the field. Cronin is a canny replacement and Genge's adopted second son (Ellis's words) Whitcombe is coming through well so hopefully we can weather that.

The Sinfield martialed defence has been inspired all season. A great bloke and hell of a coach. Borthwick's selection and tactics have raised eyebrows all season and the final was no exception but he's got it spot on again. Wigglesworth played out of his skin. The Tigers fans have taken to saying "in Borthwick we trust" because he's always got a plan and quite often odd team selections have brought home results.

I hope Borthwick doesn't head to England yet, he's at an age where he do at least one more world cup cycle before stepping into the role. International coaches don't stay in post for long normally. Steve could build an awesome body of work if he stayed at Tigers for a period, hopefully keeping his key lieutenants Walters and Sinfield with him. SB was definitely shedding a tear at the end.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 18 Jun 2022, 6:32 pm

Heaf wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Pleased that Leicester won but boy did Barnes bottle that Davies decision, with the current laws that's a red all day every day.

Indeed, although I guess in the end that makes it all the more satisfying for Tigers as nobody can now say a red card cost Sarries the match ...

Eight missed points off the tee made it closer than it needed to be as well. I didn't feel we'd hit extra time for some reason though.

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Post by Poorfour Sat 18 Jun 2022, 6:51 pm

Great support from the Tigers fans as well, although I don't think there were many neutrals in the stadium favouring Sarries... At the end it felt like there were 70,000 Tigers fans (and the chap next to me commented "I don't think there's anyone left in Leicester - they're all here.")
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Post by doctor_grey Sat 18 Jun 2022, 7:54 pm

Always great to see HQ full or almost full for the real big game. And went down to the wire between two pretty evenly matched teams.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 18 Jun 2022, 9:34 pm

Always felt a very negative final throughout probably not helped by Fords injury.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 18 Jun 2022, 11:23 pm

I've had an incredibly busy work week and day so can't comment too much. I came out of a meeting having seen no score all game and put the radio comms on whilst working just as Farrell slotted the equalising penalty. So I heard the comms for Freddie's drop goal and lost it around my new colleagues who were thankfully understanding. I haven't watched a minute but plan to watch the entire game and savour it!

All I can say is that I'm astounded and delighted by the season in equal measure. To have silverware to show for it is a gigantic cherry on an already unexpected cake.

There are some great stories thrown in there as well. Obviously and firstly, this coming so soon after Tiffany Youngs passing with Ben in the 23. Secondly, it being Ford and Genge's final Tigers game after such huge contributions. Finally, Freddie getting the winning drop goal having been traded by Tigers in the Ford deal, compartment syndrome and bells palsy.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 19 Jun 2022, 2:23 am

On the BBC podcast, Paul Grayson said of Saracen's equalizing penalty, that he wondered if they would have gone for touch, if it had not been in such an obvious kickable position. Given their momentum at the time, if they had managed to score a try, then the result might have gone their way.

Jamie George, interviewed straight after the match, was gracious in defeat, while disappointed that his team's leading players failed to turn up. It didn't seem like anyone in a Saracens shirt had a particularly bad game, thouh there weren't many standout moments for many individuals with the exception of Billy Vunipola. There was no key Itoje turnover, or Malins magic.

Taking nothing away from the match or the result, the game does need to address the thorny issue of red cards. Both Tom Wood and Grayson thought the two head shots would have been given as red for most of the season. As we've got to the back end, officials have started mitigating these down to yellow, or even just penalties at times. It happened in the Saracens vs Quins semi-final, and again in the final. Something similar happened in the Crusaders vs Blues final too.

Grayson said both the tacklers yesterday were in the wrong position, and a primary purpose of red cards is to change behaviour. If these are now yellow, then players aren't getting a consistent message about what is acceptable.

Barnes doesn't see like the kind of referee to bottle giving a red in a key match (as Dylan Hartley knows), so he must be following some kind of offciating consensus which has developed in recent months.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 19 Jun 2022, 7:30 am

Given the decisions last week and yesterday along with the conversations the officials had it does sound as if there have been advice to them and a lowering of sanctions doesn't it? Has led to confusion though which wouldn't happen if these were made more public.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 19 Jun 2022, 9:03 am

The head shots were very softly dealt with. Davies was a red all day, ridiculous it was given. Scott's would have been 50/50 for most the season as he doesn't step into the tackle he lets Billy run into him. Bit difficult to go low when other Tigers players were already hanging off him but first contact was shoulder to head so had to be minimum of a card.

I think George was right. A lot of the big Sarries players had average games. Itoje was very quiet, Daly struggled and Earl didn't make the big carrying impact I expected. Billy V was incredible for Sarries though, man of the match should his team have pulled it off.

I'm not sure Sarries kicking to the corner would have worked, their lineout was hit and miss. I was a little surprised they didn't go the Chiefs route and tap and go but I suspect the Billy V concussion made that a less attractive option.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 19 Jun 2022, 10:32 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Grayson said both the tacklers yesterday were in the wrong position, and a primary purpose of red cards is to change behaviour. If these are now yellow, then players aren't getting a consistent message about what is acceptable.

This is the key for me. The rules need to get tacklers to stop being in terrible positions.

I don't mind this period of slightly messy rules if it gets us there though. As a former (very amateur) player who stopped after concussions and a former ref I probably sympathise with the importance and difficulties of bringing these changes.

It was always going to be a messy transition. We're changing fundamental rules of the game so that rugby can exist without risking horrendous long term health issues. There was always going to be a back and forth, trial and error. Rugby has always been a messy game to officiate so changing rules was always going to be messy too. Due to the massive issue of concussion and CTE in contact sport it's a necessary process though.

I think mitigation for head contact when tacklers are in good positions and players falling into collisions are a good tweak for instance. I also like that they are clamping down early on players being pushed towards the tackler just before contact by their own teammates.

I do wish the directives were more public and rugby coverage were better though. Then we could have these changes and the subsequent tweaks explained at the start of games. Instead we get Dallagio, Healey, Monye and Kay putting on their weekly modern art exhibition exploring how playing prowess and punditry ability aren't correlated. In the Six Nations we get similar from Woodward, Johnson and Wilkinson. Just wasting valuable air time that could be used to explain why and how these rule changes are happening.

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Post by yappysnap Sun 19 Jun 2022, 9:23 pm

Congrats Sam, KC and the other Tigers fans. I really expected Sarries to poop on the parade at the end there but you guys defended brilliantly!

Hopefully this will put an end to BT's love in with Sarries and the stupid story they've created of them being the plucky underdogs of the Prem anyway...

Also that interview with Burns afterwards was great, what a character and good human.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 20 Jun 2022, 9:01 am

yappysnap wrote:Congrats Sam, KC and the other Tigers fans. I really expected Sarries to poop on the parade at the end there but you guys defended brilliantly!

Hopefully this will put an end to BT's love in with Sarries and the stupid story they've created of them being the plucky underdogs of the Prem anyway...

Also that interview with Burns afterwards was great, what a character and good human.

Burns has certainly been enjoying himself now he's got a winners medal.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 10:55 am

Seems after all the pretty terrible high tackles from the last few weeks it's only Davies who has been cited then.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 22 Jun 2022, 11:44 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Seems after all the pretty terrible high tackles from the last few weeks it's only Davies who has been cited then.

His was probably the worst.

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Post by Geordie Wed 22 Jun 2022, 12:29 pm

I see George Ford has ruptured his achiles so could be out long term....even upto Christmas etc depending on his recovery ability.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 1:13 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Seems after all the pretty terrible high tackles from the last few weeks it's only Davies who has been cited then.

His was probably the worst.

THe Vunipola one was bad the week before, still think Porters was a bad one too. I don't know it just seems that refs were given a bit of an unheard direction to be a little more lax on interpretation and then this decision kinda throws them under the bus but without consistency too. I know the panels are a general mish mash of people but does anyone know if the citing officers have a consistent team and that they're getting the same directions as the match day officials?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 1:14 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see George Ford has ruptured his achiles so could be out long term....even upto Christmas etc depending on his recovery ability.  

Horrible for Sale considering the drop to the other 10s.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 22 Jun 2022, 3:34 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Seems after all the pretty terrible high tackles from the last few weeks it's only Davies who has been cited then.

His was probably the worst.

THe Vunipola one was bad the week before, still think Porters was a bad one too. I don't know it just seems that refs were given a bit of an unheard direction to be a little more lax on interpretation and then this decision kinda throws them under the bus but without consistency too. I know the panels are a general mish mash of people but does anyone know if the citing officers have a consistent team and that they're getting the same directions as the match day officials?

The Porter tackle would have been legal had the Saints player not slipped as he passed meaning he was on one knee when Porter made contact. I think that's fair mitigation from red to yellow.

The Vunipola one is similar to the Scott one in the final so the consistency there sort of makes sense. If you hold your ground and the player barrells into you then you aren't the dominant force in the collision and that mitigates things. Gibson-Park got away with that horror tackle with the same mitigation didn't he.

Lozowski and Walker were both glancing blows. I didn't have a problem with them being yellow.

Despite Dayglo's view I think Davies has chance to drop his height and makes no attempt. It's nasty, reckless and was an officiating error.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Jun 2022, 4:10 pm

Saw it more from a no arms never in the position to do so place myself.
The Vunipola was deemed force like you say, but it's just a bizarre thing where you end with people bloodied but if the tackler goes backwards force wasn't there...(not the BV example but from the semi)

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 22 Jun 2022, 5:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Saw it more from a no arms never in the position to do so place myself.
The Vunipola was deemed force like you say, but it's just a bizarre thing where you end with people bloodied but if the tackler goes backwards force wasn't there...(not the BV example but from the semi)

There's definitely arms in the Porter one as it's mainly his arm coming around that smacks Hutchinson in the face.

I think there needs to be a difference drawn between the tackler doesn't initiate contact and tackler isn't dominant because I think those are different things.

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Premiership Final Empty Re: Premiership Final

Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 25 Jun 2022, 8:15 am

Most watched final of all time apparently. Over a million viewers.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 25 Jun 2022, 9:16 am

Yep, first free to air one though. Bumped the figures up significantly. I wonder if a deal to show all the playoff games will come next season. Massie-Taylor seems to be on a mission with the PRL to make games more accessible. Can only be a good thing.

RFU moving games to Amazon Prime from Sky certainly helping things a bit as well. Still not sure why they didn't open the top tier of Twickers for the Baabaas game and give the cheap seats away to grassroots rugby clubs or practically give them away. Rugby is a niche sport, we need to make it more accessible.

formerly known as Sam

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 25 Jun 2022, 10:18 am

It's that fine balance of money vs viewers. Certainly positive though.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 25 Jun 2022, 12:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Most watched final of all time apparently. Over a million viewers.
Excellent! Is that UK only or worldwide? Also, does it include streaming as well?

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 25 Jun 2022, 12:44 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Yep, first free to air one though. Bumped the figures up significantly. I wonder if a deal to show all the playoff games will come next season. Massie-Taylor seems to be on a mission with the PRL to make games more accessible. Can only be a good thing.

RFU moving games to Amazon Prime from Sky certainly helping things a bit as well. Still not sure why they didn't open the top tier of Twickers for the Baabaas game and give the cheap seats away to grassroots rugby clubs or practically give them away. Rugby is a niche sport, we need to make it more accessible.
Really does seem like a miss. And Rugby frequently seems to miss these easy ones.

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