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Premiership Final

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:09 am

First topic message reminder :

STARTING XV
15 Freddie Steward [55]
14 Chris Ashton [11]
13 Matías Moroni [35]
12 Guy Porter [44]
11 Harry Potter [40]
10 George Ford [128]
9 Richard Wigglesworth [36]
1 Ellis Genge (c) [110]
2 Julián Montoya [26]
3 Dan Cole [289]
4 Ollie Chessum [30]
5 Calum Green [90]
6 Hanro Liebenberg (vc) [58]
7 Tommy Reffell [77]
8 Jasper Wiese [44]

REPLACEMENTS
16 Charlie Clare [51]
17 Nephi Leatigaga [67]
18 Joe Heyes [100]
19 Harry Wells [155]
20 George Martin [38]
21 Ben Youngs [281]
22 Freddie Burns [102]
23 Matt Scott [46]

No Nadolo is a blow and it looks like we are going to go to the air a lot with Wiggy starting and Youngs benching.

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:02 pm

They didn't open the top tier when I went to the Baa-Baas vs England games back in 2019. That was both for the Women's and the Men's games. I reckon they could have filled Twickenham that day. Seemed like an own-goal back then...

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:28 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:They didn't open the top tier when I went to the Baa-Baas vs England games back in 2019. That was both for the Women's and the Men's games. I reckon they could have filled Twickenham that day. Seemed like an own-goal back then...
At least they are consistent. Consistently wrong, but consistent...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:31 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Most watched final of all time apparently. Over a million viewers.
Excellent!  Is that UK only or worldwide?  Also, does it include streaming as well?  
Uk doc. 831k peak on itv, 480k on bt from you gov.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:33 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Most watched final of all time apparently. Over a million viewers.
Excellent!  Is that UK only or worldwide?  Also, does it include streaming as well?  
Uk doc. 831k peak on itv, 480k on bt from you gov.
That's really impressive, mate. Around 1.3 million. So the foundations are there for the league to really grow. The question is whether the powers that be know how to leverage it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:19 pm

Davies gets 3 weeks ban, citing officer has said dominance of carry does not mean it's a low degree of danger. Seems that everyone is on completely different pages again and a summer tour to Aus looks to be a lottery.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:18 pm

It'll be reduced to two weeks once he does the training course. I think he managed to escape with just the yellow card for nearly taking Ford's head off earlier in the season otherwise this ban would have been worse. I presume his sentence was six weeks mitigated down to three after he brought suitably good biscuits and said sorry.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:37 pm

Early odds for next season
Saracens - 7/4
Exeter Chiefs - 4/1
Leicester Tigers - 5/1
Harlequins - 7/1
Sale Sharks - 15/2
Gloucester - 14/1
Northampton Saints - 14/1
Bristol Bears - 16/1
Wasps - 20/1
London Irish - 25/1
Bath - 28/1
Worcester Warriors - 100/1
Newcastle Falcons - 150/1

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Post by king_carlos Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:55 pm

Sarries as favourites makes sense to me. Koch is a big loss but Riccioni looks a very good TH in the making, Judge and Bello are just the sort of players Sarries usually get a lot out of. Tizard partnering Itoje with Isiekwe likely back at 6 is a big improvement to their full strength XV compared to this season where it felt like they were either having Isiekwe at the row and compromising at 6 or having Isiekwe at 6 and compromising in the row.

Players such as Christie and MacFarland should just get better too. Plus their backs are pretty much intact.

Tigers have recruited well overall but the full strength starting XV will inevitably be weaker for not having Genge. Given our set-piece reliance this season I think it's difficult to overlook that when thinking ahead to the big games.

Surprised to see Exeter at 4/1 though. I think Grondona and van Heerdan are good signings and a bit more injury luck will obviously help them but they've lost Skinner, Hill and O'Flaherty. Meanwhile Whitten isn't getting any younger which is important as he was previously a rock for them. I think Chiefs will be better next season but a bit surprised to see them that high. The clampdown on pre binding for carries near the line and lineout lifters stepping in front of the jumper to block defenders when setting up the maul definitely affected their game plan as well. Exeter were brilliant at finding little advantages like that but similar to jackals attacking beyond the ball, getting driven back onto the ball once these things get picked up on and copied by lots of teams they eventually get clamped down on.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:53 pm

king_carlos wrote:Sarries as favourites makes sense to me. Koch is a big loss but Riccioni looks a very good TH in the making, Judge and Bello are just the sort of players Sarries usually get a lot out of. Tizard partnering Itoje with Isiekwe likely back at 6 is a big improvement to their full strength XV compared to this season where it felt like they were either having Isiekwe at the row and compromising at 6 or having Isiekwe at 6 and compromising in the row.

Players such as Christie and MacFarland should just get better too. Plus their backs are pretty much intact.

Tigers have recruited well overall but the full strength starting XV will inevitably be weaker for not having Genge. Given our set-piece reliance this season I think it's difficult to overlook that when thinking ahead to the big games.

Surprised to see Exeter at 4/1 though. I think Grondona and van Heerdan are good signings and a bit more injury luck will obviously help them but they've lost Skinner, Hill and O'Flaherty. Meanwhile Whitten isn't getting any younger which is important as he was previously a rock for them. I think Chiefs will be better next season but a bit surprised to see them that high. The clampdown on pre binding for carries near the line and lineout lifters stepping in front of the jumper to block defenders when setting up the maul definitely affected their game plan as well. Exeter were brilliant at finding little advantages like that but similar to jackals attacking beyond the ball, getting driven back onto the ball once these things get picked up on and copied by lots of teams they eventually get clamped down on.

Agree KC, Exeter are are a bit of an odd one. The change of rules hit them hard and I think they're nothing more than an outside shot for the top 4.

Tigers and Sarries must be the obvious favourites......what can Borthwick do with another year? Surely he'll only tighten you up and improve.

I'd be going with a solid Tigers/Sarries/Quins and one of Gloucester/Saints/?.

Falcons look a banker for the bottom spot but with Deano going, we could be a bit of surprise package......one can only hope.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:55 pm

It's what I love about the Premiership though and what makes it such a fascinating league, anybody from 4 to 13 could really spring a surprise. It's the best league in world rugby for me (I do have a lot of time for the T14 mind despite not watching much these days).

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Post by king_carlos Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:20 pm

I'm interested to see if and how the Tigers game plan evolves. When we haven't had that set-piece advantage this season our attack has looked a bit blunt at times. It needs to keep developing.

If we get a nudge at scrum or lineout the team have been very good at getting on a roll from it. A good platform at first phase has led to opportunity usually as a pack with lots of carriers then keeps getting over the gain line. If a defence knocks us back in the first phase of two it has then looked predictable against top sides though.

Pollard should suit the Tigers current game plan very well with his big boot and being so good defensively and in contact. He's a fly-half built like a flanker after all! He's really good at playing to a system efficiently which is how Borthwick currently plans everything. Pollard hasn't got the same creative edge as Ford in attack though.

Gopperth is a cracking addition as 10/12 cover but once again isn't a fresh spark in attack.

Since Kelly got injured we've missed his go forward at 12 so I'm really happy with Phil Cokanasiga as a 12 with similar talents even if he's a long way to go compared to Kelly.

Borthwick being so new to the top job yet so good at the things he's good at is a really intriguing thing. It's a bit like a young player who's fantastic at parts of the game but needs to develop others and we're wondering how they will progress. It's an odd thing seeing it with a head coach though! We don't have previous sides he's led to look at.

The biggest improvement Tigers should see is largely through the young players, especially the young forwards, continuing to improve which is exciting. Reffell, Chessum, Martin and Heyes are already very good first XV players but should keep getting better. Cam Henderson was ahead of Chessum as a lock a year ago so could be like a new signing if he gets/stays fit. If he fulfils his talent he could be an upgrade on Green. Whitcombe is a really promising LH. Ilione looks a fantastic prospect of course who should be pushing into the senior side more next season.

Liebenberg, Reffell and Wiese have been huge for Tigers this season as a unit for instance. It's not ridiculous to me that if Martin continues to improve he might make the 6 shirt his own forcing a choice between Liebenberg and Wiese at 8 with the other benching for instance. Then if Marco van Staden can get fit he's a fantastic openside that despite Reffell's brilliant season could realistically reclaim the 7 shirt.

Likewise I don't think it's out the question for Heyes and JvP to usurp Cole and Youngs as starters in the big games next season.

That's a really exciting place to be even if I do have some concerns over how the attack continues to evolve.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:33 pm

Tigers look great....much more than the sum of their parts, really impressed. I had some reservations about Borthwick but he's worked miracles tbh.

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Post by yappysnap Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:20 pm

Suprised by Exeter being placed so high. I see them similar to Quins - potentially a strong top 4 contender but just as easily finding themselves scrapping in the middle of the ladder.

Quins I hope will have another good season and build on what we've got, we are losing a couple of very good players though, especially at second row and that could hit us very hard. A lot also rests on Care having another stormer of a season, and if he doesn't then I think we've all seen how that can effect Smith. England call ups as well will hit us hard again.

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Post by king_carlos Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:29 pm

1.Hepburn, Moon, Keast
2.LCD, Innard, Yeandle
3.Williams, Shickerling, Street, Iosefa-Scott
4.Kirsten, Witty, Tshiunza
5.Gray, van Heerdan, Dunne
6.Ewers, Grondona
7.Vermuelen, Capstick
8.Simmonds, Tuima

Having a deeper look at the squad, Chiefs forwards look very good to me still. van Heerdan and Grondona are good players who will suit their style perfectly. With Witty having improved so much their locks actually look really strong despite losing Hill and Skinner.

The backs are a bit more uneven. O'Flaherty is a big loss and I do think Whitten, terrific player in his day, is slowing down. Nowell has been less impactful this season too.

They really need Joe Simmonds to rediscover his best form and lead that backline. Especially if/when Slade and Hogg are absent.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:01 am

It's going to be interesting next season. As KC says the Tigers attack is going to come under a lot of scrutiny. Genge is effectively an additional number 8 and his carrying game has been vital, the Genge/Weise one-two combination has been an often used momentum generator. Tigers are going to have to start finding a more dynamic way to make metres. Pollard's ability to play 12 allowing Burns to shuffle in at 10 and an alternative to Kelly at 12 in Cokanasiga should certainly helps things a bit but there's definitely work to do this summer.

Quins, no idea as Yappy says could be top or could be mid table. Having had their engine room pretty much gutted at the end of the season a club that's developed a great platform for the expansive backline could wobble a bit. Agree a lot is still on the shoulders of the aging Danny Care.

Sarries, they should be strong again. More international call ups for the Vunipolas could cause them issues though. They've ever present this season and that always helps.

Chiefs, are going full rebuild after beating around the bush for a couple of years. KC is right that the midfield being an area of issue though the reliance on the old stager Whitten should diminish if Devoto is finally fit again.

Wasps could be a bit of a dark horse after their front row rebuild. As long as the backline can still do the business they should get a much better platform particularly if Stooke can make it back early in the season and Launchbury is overlooked by Eddie.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:24 pm

Squidge Rugby, on the final.


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Post by king_carlos Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:19 pm

I rate Dino Lamb and Irne Herbst is a solid player but Symons (very underrated the last few years) and Tizard (potential England player) are big losses. It will be interesting to see how Quins weather them.

Kenningham returning will be like a new signing though and a player like Sam Riley having another years physical development could see him make an impact.

I'll be watching the Quins hookers with interest in fact. Walker was an U20s star then stuttered a bit but quietly had a very good season with Quins. Riley looks a cracking talent.

Shug aside the Quins backs are the same for next season though, with their game plan that continuity is very important.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:39 pm

king_carlos wrote:I rate Dino Lamb and Irne Herbst is a solid player but Symons (very underrated the last few years) and Tizard (potential England player) are big losses. It will be interesting to see how Quins weather them.

Symons had a rather indifferent move to England before really coming to the fore last season. His ability to disrupt opposition mauls has been invaluable to Quins, that's a skill that's hard to replace. Lamb and Herbst is by no means a bad pairing but Symons and Tizard were a high quality combination. Lewies can always move back into the row from 6 to help out as well.

Good call on the hookers and Kenningham. Could enable them to deploy dual opensides next season which could be pretty effective in the Quins system.

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