England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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sensisball wrote:
With Bath enduring a terrible season how many tries has Cokonasiga scored?

In five starts and four sub appearances he's bagged five tries. One appearance and one try for England.

It's a bench lacking experience but it's the type of players we'd like to have as options come the world cup.

Ignore the front row that pretty much picked itself.

Chessum - covers lock and 6 highly mobile and physical, good lineout option and we've been desperate for a young lock to come through.

Ludlam - covers 8 and 7 which is what the bench needs, club captain so adds much needed leadership here.

JVP - no one likes the current 9 options for last season's Under 20 captain and player of the J6N gets a chance. Best kicking game of the three 9s on tour and likes to play high tempo.

Porter - covers every position in the backs outside of 9 and 10, could probably do a job on the flank as well. Eddie likes a versatility option as they very much help the overall squad come world cup so audition time for Guy.

Arundell - exciting young player, not ready yet but Eddie will be hoping some international game time might speed up his development. Unlikely starter but potential game changer off the bench, always handy to have one of those at a world cup. Porter's inclusion means Arundell won't have to go in early unless there's multiple injuries.

I really rate Ribbans too. Consistently very strong player.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I do not know what Jones has against Dave Ribbans, I would take him over any of the touring locks bar Itoje. 19 stone of grunt with all the other skills needed for a top class lock.

Wasn't there some rumours he'd been managing a back issue towards the end of the season with Saints? Might be trying to get that sorted during the summer.

Yeah, had some spasms, I believe. But I think the real reason EJ isn't bringing him in is he committed a number of high tackles this year. Nothing deliberate or in anger, but the issues with a guy 10 ft. tall trying to tackle more normal-ish kinds of humans. Just positioning in the moment. Was doing better later on this season. It's a shame because he does all the donkey work at least as well as Hill plus is a terrific line out operator and with a little turn of pace and a nice offload.

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I do not know what Jones has against Dave Ribbans, I would take him over any of the touring locks bar Itoje. 19 stone of grunt with all the other skills needed for a top class lock.

Wasn't there some rumours he'd been managing a back issue towards the end of the season with Saints? Might be trying to get that sorted during the summer.

Yeah, had some spasms, I believe.  But I think the real reason EJ isn't bringing him in is he committed a number of high tackles this year.  Nothing deliberate or in anger, but the issues with a guy 10 ft. tall trying to tackle more normal-ish kinds of humans.  Just positioning in the moment.   Was doing better later on this season.  It's a shame because he does all the donkey work at least as well as Hill plus is a terrific line out operator and with a little turn of pace and a nice offload.

Can't be that, he's included Porter who's picked up a yellow and a red in the last three months of the season.

I know EJ had mentioned the pens one time when Rib-Eye's name was mentioned as a potential England player.  But, as you say, could be something else, as well.  

I just read an article in the Telegraph indicating Underhill will start for Curry.  Either EJ said something or someone was reading the entrails of a chicken.  On the other hand, not too hard to figure EJ wouldn't do anything radical with Underhill sitting there.

Tbf a fit and on form Underhill is absolute class, and what we were lacking was slowish players who tackle well...

Mmmmh, is Underhill fit and on form though?
Not exactly showing it in the Barbarians game. I kept forgetting he was actually playing.

Willis all day every day and twice on Saturdays.

Swain out for the remainder of the tour. Suspended obvs. His defence was just that it didn't warrant a red card.

I would love to see a conservative more 2019 EJs Probable England V a more dynamic and riskier Possible England trial match. Maybe get Borthwick & Lancaster to prepare the Possibles team.

Probables:

Mako
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Hill
Lawes
Billy
Curry
Youngs
Farrell
May
Manu
Slade
Watson
Steward

Possibles:

Genge
Cowan-Dickie
Stuart
Launchbury
Chessum
Isiekwe
Dombrandt
Willis
Care
Smith
Hassell-Collins
Freeman
Marchant
Radwan
Arundell

Be great to see if the inexperienced speedy backs could do something if given quick ball and who else could stick their hand up for selection?

Who will Rennie bring in as lock? Timani has been back in Oz for a season, was a great player for Clermont. Tough as nails ball carrier with good discipline, also weighs in over 125 kg. Wonder if he is in this squad?

Apparently Oz press think that the 28 year old Matt Philip from Western Force will get to add to his 3 caps. Played season 20-21 for Pau and appeared in 13 matches, so probably a decent if uninspiring lock. Just over 6 6 and 117 kg, so should be decent lineout operator, maybe not so good at making yards

Didn't realise Cooper was out for the whole series.

In what is a must win game for Eddie I expect him to go conservative looking to grind out a win.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Farrell back in the 10 shirt and Smith warming the bench. Farrell would possibly self combust if Eddie was to actually dare to drop him, if his reaction to not being made captain last week was anything to go by.

I hope Arundell isn't thrown in to start, as Australia will undoubtedly target him - I think he is a real talent -  I would just prefer to see him allowed to ease himself into International rugby with some sub appearances.  With May seemingly not being fit and Cokinasiga not being in form, Eddie may well do something but I hope Freeman gets the nod with Arundell coming on when the game opens up a bit - he showed what he can do against tiring players.

Slightly strange to see Quade Cooper getting a kicking in the Aussie press for his bromance with Marcus Smith.  It seems the Aussies rate Smith as more of a danger than a lot of England fans do.

Sharkey06 wrote:In what is a must win game for Eddie I expect him to go conservative looking to grind out a win.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Farrell back in the 10 shirt and Smith warming the bench.

A) not a must win game, he'll be here to the world cup as England the RFU won't want the costs of paying him out and buying his replacement out of their contract.

B) I think Eddie has already said it'll be Smith and Farrell at 10 and 12 again.

England will play better this weekend.

Sharkey06 wrote:In what is a must win game for Eddie I expect him to go conservative looking to grind out a win.

It's doubtful Jones will try a selection aimed solely at a win. His goal is to take a competitive side to the World Cup, and he'd rather be hanged for a sheep, than for a lamb.

Jones almost certainly thought, like the rest of us, that his team could get a win over a 14-man Australia. Now, he'll finally be taking on board the fact that this team has developed a terrible habit of losing the last quarter of a match. It's more likely he'll select a similar side to last week, with a view to trying to give them confidence.

He isn't worried about keeping his job; he wants evidence these players are capable of showing him want he wants to see. If nothing comes off on this tour, then he might cut his losses for next season, and just try and pull something more familiar together for 2023.

I mean it's lovely having the full confidence of your employers with assurances of no matter you're staying but....let's be serious it's not unconditional support. I don't think a win or loss is the be all and end all but there are situations that could develop over the next couple of games which change things.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I mean it's lovely having the full confidence of your employers with assurances of no matter you're staying but....let's be serious it's not unconditional support. I don't think a win or loss is the be all and end all but there are situations that could develop over the next couple of games which change things.

There might be chopping and changing of assistants but Eddie will be there until the world cup now. There's not enough time for someone else to come in and reshape the team before the world cup.

So unconditional support is there for you Sam? We could get turned over by 40 points on Saturday with on field arguments between players, red cards through sheer petulance and you expect the RFU to say all good. What if we were nilled by 35 points and looked disinterested?

Not saying either are likely but I think there are lines in the sand as to what the RFU would expect and could take.

Johnson was completely safe after his vote of confidence right?

GeordieFalcon wrote:England will play better this weekend.

It wouldn't astound me if something did suddenly click. There are some very good experienced internationals mixed in with some very promising younger players.

There's a decent analysis on Twitter I'll try to link looking at England's new structure producing half chances that they aren't finishing as well.

I've said before I think there's the skeleton of something effective in this squad. I'm becoming less positive by the match that we are getting closer to fleshing out that skeleton though.

I hope Freeman is somewhere in the 23, I'd probably drop Nowell as I don't think he's having the same impact anymore. I'd pick Dingwall ahead of Porter on the bench. Personally I'd start Underhill ahead of Ludlam and Willis - I rate both of the latter but simply think Underhill is still the better player overall. That aside I'd not make many changes. I'd ere on the side of keeping Arundell in the 23 shirt but wouldn't be upset to see him start.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I mean it's lovely having the full confidence of your employers with assurances of no matter you're staying but....let's be serious it's not unconditional support. I don't think a win or loss is the be all and end all but there are situations that could develop over the next couple of games which change things.

I think cracks have already started to show.  Two consecutive Six Nations with poor results.  Poor results and poor form now.  So if there are two more drubbings like Saturday, then yes, I think Eddie should go, and I think he will.  

On the other hand, I doubt there will be more terrible results, perhaps losses though, but form is everything right now.  And we need to see our very experienced players perform like very experienced players.  And we need our young eager-beavers to prove they have got it in a real game, not garbaaage time track practice.  So they need real game time, but with a plan to protect if they have problems. Eddie can do that, ask Teimana Harrison or Luther Burrell.  

Do I think the current situation can be salvaged?  Yes, of course it can.  And it could still be fixed by Eddie.  But also perhaps by the inexperienced Borthwick, the off-the-grid Mallinder (who I think would do great for ONE RWC cycle), or even Pat Lam.  Why can it be salvaged?  Because, as mentioned above, many of the players are seasoned and experienced with a history of success.  And scoring.  Good players don't become poor or dumb overnight.  So, we might simply have regime fatigue, which can happen with even the most experienced and successful coach.  Everything and everyone have a sell-by date.  

Looking at Quins and Saints, with very different coaching approaches and tactics, they are currently attacking machines.  Bristol, who were last season, are not.  Pat Lam didn't become a poor coach.  He simply doesn't have the same players.   So I don't blame the stated goals of the open attack strategy, rather it is either the wrong approach, coaching (it has to be coached differently as well), or we might need different players to make that approach a success.  I have my thoughts, but let's see.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So unconditional support is there for you Sam? We could get turned over by 40 points on Saturday with on field arguments between players, red cards through sheer petulance and you expect the RFU to say all good. What if we were nilled by 35 points and looked disinterested?

Not saying either are likely but I think there are lines in the sand as to what the RFU would expect and could take.

Johnson was completely safe after his vote of confidence right?

Nowt to do with whether I rate him or not. Just can't see the RFU hitting the panic button. Unlike getting rid of the convict the RFU would have to pay out his contract and then expend significant funds on his replacement who may then want to shake up the backroom team again at more cost. The Tories can ditch the convict for nothing.

Eddie's rumoured to be earning £800k a year. We'd need to pay the remainder of his contract, buy whomever out of their contract. Say that's Borthwick, I dunno what he earns say between £200-300k and he's got a year left on his deal that Tigers would probably want. That's the RFU dropping a million before they've paid Borthwick a penny or reshaped the assistant coaches.

They give Eddie the chance to take his master plan to the world cup and they go with a coach who's done well at world cups and know they can just not renew his contract next summer when other coaches also become available as they are out of contract.

It was a question of whether you felt there was no way that the rfu were going to sack him rather than if you thinking if he should go but that answered it! And still Johnson stays.

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:England will play better this weekend.

It wouldn't astound me if something did suddenly click. There are some very good experienced internationals mixed in with some very promising younger players.

There's a decent analysis on Twitter I'll try to link looking at England's new structure producing half chances that they aren't finishing as well.

I've said before I think there's the skeleton of something effective in this squad. I'm becoming less positive by the match that we are getting closer to fleshing out that skeleton though.

I hope Freeman is somewhere in the 23, I'd probably drop Nowell as I don't think he's having the same impact anymore. I'd pick Dingwall ahead of Porter on the bench. Personally I'd start Underhill ahead of Ludlam and Willis - I rate both of the latter but simply think Underhill is still the better player overall. That aside I'd not make many changes. I'd ere on the side of keeping Arundell in the 23 shirt but wouldn't be upset to see him start.

Not sure if you're referring to the Squidge analysis, nor whether it's been posted on here, but he does offer food for thought as always...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UDmoKBPg_Y

Haskell asked George Kruis whether there's a sum of money he would find hard to turn down, should a team suddenly approach him to fill in as emergency injury cover. Kruis said the decision wouldn't be about money, as he's been offered more now he's retired, than he was when playing.

Instead, he said it would have to be a scenario where there was a chance of a trophy, and good memories, over a short enough period, so he could still commit to his business. He reckons, it would take two months to get fit, though game time would be more important.

So, it's conceivable that a title contender puts out an SOS in the second half of next season, and Kruis puts in an appearance. Unless it's a Premiership club, of course, then he wouldn't be available for England. Realistically, he's not going to figure in a World Cup plans outside a sudden spate of injuries, like NZ saw, when calling Stephen Donald off his fishing trip. However, he hasn't been in an England camp for years, and he's 8kg lighter than the World Cup season, so it wouldn't be a case of just slotting in as before.

Make it so Kruiser. Please make it so.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Underhill 7.Curry 8.Dombrandt
9.Quirke 10.Smith 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Tuilagi 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.LCD 17.Marler 18.Heyes 19.Chessum 20.Lawes 21.Willis 22.JvP 23.Marchant

A man can dream, hey.

https://twitter.com/wallabies/status/1544882491961487360

Taniela Tupou is back in the starting lineup for the Wallabies this weekend.

JVP, Freeman, Porter and Underhill start in changes to last week

https://twitter.com/foychris/status/1544929574752260096?s=12

Rugby Fan wrote:https://twitter.com/wallabies/status/1544882491961487360

Taniela Tupou is back in the starting lineup for the Wallabies this weekend.

Good. Makes up to a certain degree for the loss of Cooper. So the pack is going to have to man up. And everyone is going to have to play tenacious defense for the full 80. This is what we need.

I think that's a weaker team than last week. Well here we go, surely something needs to click.

What time is the team announced? I held off making my Superbru England-Australia pick until I can see the England 23. Unfortunately, I went ahead and made the rest of my picks including SA-Wales, and I think I got it wrong now.....

doctor_grey wrote:What time is the team announced?  I held off making my Superbru England-Australia pick until I can see the England 23.  Unfortunately, I went ahead and made the rest of my picks including SA-Wales, and I think I got it wrong now.....

About 5 mins ago.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:What time is the team announced?  I held off making my Superbru England-Australia pick until I can see the England 23.  Unfortunately, I went ahead and made the rest of my picks including SA-Wales, and I think I got it wrong now.....

About 5 mins ago.

That's early! Eddie Jones has no consideration for anyone. He should always wait until it is 10:00am wherever I happen to be.
By the galloping garter of the Queen Mum, Porter and Freeman????

England: 15 Freddie Steward, 14 Jack Nowell, 13 Guy Porter, 12 Owen Farrell, 11 Tommy Freeman, 10 Marcus Smith, 9 Jack van Poortvliet; 1 Ellis Genge, 2 Jamie George, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Maro Itoje, 5 Jonny Hill, 6 Courtney Lawes (c), 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Billy Vunipola

Replacements: 16 Luke Cowan-Dickie, 17 Mako Vunipola, 18 Joe Heyes, 19 Ollie Chessum, 20 Lewis Ludlam, 21 Jack Willis, 22 Danny Care, 23 Henry Arundell.

On paper, for whatever it's worth, this should be a highly competitive team.

I really do dislike a 6 2 bench.

Eddie Jones has good breakdown forwards on the bench to try to be strong is the 2nd half.  So he is playing to be more physical....I wonder if that means more more channel 1 Rugby.  If so, we better not miss an opportunity to give our young'uns meaningful game time and time with ball in hand.    I am already concerned that Porter gets caught in the great Bermuda Triangle of the Rugby world known as the England midfield.

What did Marchant do that warranted being completely dropped?

The selection merry go round continues and I don't think this match is going to help us find our best 23. You will get good odds on England pulling this one off in Brisbane.

Muddled thinking a bit ain't it. Do agree with doc it looks to be a more direct route looked for. We'll struggle at the breakdown until that bench comes on. They'll surely be looking to put a lot more pressure on the halfbacks as well. More kicking this week.

I'm a bit surprised by the team. As others have said, Marchant being dropped is odd. He wasn't brilliant, but which starting back was? I guess Freeman is there to offer the hard yards that Big Joe didn't?

Please for JVP, but also a bit surprised to see him get a start already.

I mostly like the starting team, but I can't decide whether it is a knee jerk reaction or Eddie trying to recreate a tournament feel in his squad?

6/2 splits always seem like such a risk.

Well from that 23 it's clear what our tactic will be. A dogged kick fest first 60 with reinforcements coming on to try and open them up. Still think it's wrong playing Farrell and smith together. He might as well start Farrell and then bring on Smith to open them up later on. Why try and fit square pegs in a round whole? Our centre partnership by the looks of it is to be direct which could work but Australia looked very strong defensively in midfield so can't see us getting any joy there.

Players who need big games to pay eddy back for loyalty: hill, Farrell (at least make your kicks, would have won last week if he was up to usual standard) will Stewart and Nowell. I think Underhill is lucky tbh as his form for bath, understandably, has been meh.

I shall watch with hope rather than expectation.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Muddled thinking a bit ain't it. Do agree with doc it looks to be a more direct route looked for. We'll struggle at the breakdown until that bench comes on. They'll surely be looking to put a lot more pressure on the halfbacks as well. More kicking this week.

I think it's world cup thinking. The selection isn't necessarily for this game it's with a view to the world cup.

- Porter, best position is 13 but he very handily covers virtually all the backline. Can he do the job at 13 in this England midfield? If the answer is yes then he can be a very useful addition at a tournament with restricted player numbers, if no then Eddie needs to move on and look at other options. The fact that Port will give a hard running option to Smith who looked shakey and couldn't pass last weekend might be a useful in strategic pick going forward, maybe from the bench in future games should the backline struggle again.

- Freeman, Eddie dropped Furbank in against France not because England needed him but because Eddie wants a versatile back up to Steward (I guess he wanted to test whether Steward could do a job on the wing as well). Furbank struggled but having a look at a wing/fullback option with not dissimilar skillset to Steward makes sense in case of injury.

- 6-2 bench, a favourite of Eddie's. England have a bad habit of losing the last 20 mins of games a return to the unpopular but generally quite effective bench split could see a resurgence after half time. We did well in the first 40 Vs Australia last weekend but didn't get the reward due to awful accuracy and indiscipline. Better this week plus a high impact bench could work.

- JVP, clear indication Eddie hasn't found the scrum half he wants yet. The kid got 2 mins last weekend and now starts. Presumably Eddie wanted to see if Care could do a Quins style shift for England but this is dropping JVP into the deep end a bit. Randall still nowhere to be seen, perhaps the incompetence of his Baabaas performance coming back to bite him.

We're not in the world cup though. We're playing Australia. He may not get to the world cup unless things improve and if he looks directionless it moves a step closer to him not making it there at all.

Yeah im getting a bit bored with the ....its for the World Cup stance.

Just play your best team and squad for each competition and evolve as we go.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah im getting a bit bored with the ....its for the World Cup stance.

Just play your best team and squad for each competition and evolve as we go.

The old fashioned way that worked well was to slowly introduce 1 or 2 new players at a time into a successful team and get them up and running before the next 1 or 2 come along. Constantly trying new combinations and players is not smart. Of course it is exciting to see JVP start but the circumstances are hardly ideal. He did not even get on the bench for the premiership final and it seems very strange to chuck him in now. I would prefer DC starting but to give JVP more pitch time as a finisher. And we lost a late scrum last Sat and still had Heyes on the bench....strange calls going on. Marchant in, Marchant out.

It feels like if, and it is a mighty big IF, Manu returns and probably with Slade, then we might well be able to steady the ship, but he is making a right hash of things now.

and do we still miss Marler....as great as Ellis and Mako are in the loose I think Joe is still our best scrummager. Should he be playing a more prominent role for us from the Autumn onwards?

No 7&1/2 wrote:We're not in the world cup though. We're playing Australia. He may not get to the world cup unless things improve and if he looks directionless it moves a step closer to him not making it there at all.

Eddie's planning is for the world cup. It's frustrating to watch as an England fan because we want to see wins and performances but if he brings home the world cup he'll dine out on it for decades, SCW has.

It's sort of the opposite of directionless really because it's all about planning for one big goal where Eddie wants to know the squad he picks can do a job. Currently the centre options are really thin. Slade, Manu and Marchant have caps and are likely to be in the picture. Manu is 50/50 as to whether he's going to be fit or not. Leaves Marchant and Slade or a recall for Daly. Makes sense to blood another centre to see if they can do the job at the required level, it's not like Porter hasn't played in high profile games this season plus there's been lots of talk Smith needs a hard running option in the midfield.

hugehandoff wrote:and do we still miss Marler....as great as Ellis and Mako are in the loose I think Joe is still our best scrummager. Should he be playing a more prominent role for us from the Autumn onwards?

I think he'll come back in as the bench option. Genge's carrying game, solid scrum work and leadership edge him into the starting berth but having Joe Marler on the bench to come on and turn the screw at scrum time and help control the last 35 mins makes a lot of sense.

I suspect that Marler, like Launchbury (and Kruis) is at that stage of his career where he is going gently downhill. He may still be good enough come the RWC, especially as he is effectively getting more time to recover through not touring, but I am wary of looking at the old timers as providing a solution to all our ills.

For the opposite of directionless I'd expect a little more consistency in selection to be honest. I understand that his first choice midfield has been out for long periods but the players used in there have been pushed and pulled from 12 to 13 to wing and options looked at with quite different styles. Similar at wing. The real consistency we've had is through the pack, but Proudfoot for me has been a bit of a disaster all in all.

As a fan I want entertainment first and foremost; sorely lacking. The close second is consistent winning. If we were to win the next WC great, but frankly it's not worth the 3 years of gash. I remember the NZ posters here getting angsty when people said they bottled WCs but I'd bite your hand off for domination and entertainment in between WCs and going out with a wimper in the semis.

Jones has nailed his colours to mast, I don't know how or why the RFU have let him get away with that. The latest sound bites are that they ain't happy with it. I am hopeful we'll do better this weekend; there are signs the attack was nearly coming off bar some little mistakes or great defence but patience wears thin, even for the people balancing books in the accountancy department writing P45s.

Perhaps it clicks this week and we run in 6 tries, perhaps we don't.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Perhaps it clicks this week and we run in 6 tries, perhaps we don't.

There isn't much cause for optimism that it will suddenly click based on our performances over the last couple of years.  Even our 'big' win against South Africa was a scrappy affair and the Saffers were left wondering how they managed to lose that game.

The "it is all preparation for the next world cup" comments seem to be a bit Emperor's new clothes.  The simpler answer is that Eddie looks bereft of ideas, is too caught up with his own brilliance and falls out with players and coaches too easily.  Taking account of their injuries and unavailable players, this is a pretty modest Australia squad.  I am under no illusion that Eddie will be sacked even if we lose the series 3 - 0, as has been well pointed out the cost of replacing him would be significant at a time when the RFU are tightening their belts.  But the performance of the England cricket teams does demonstrate what can happen with some clarity in thinking and putting round pegs in round holes.  It would certainly be interesting to see what happened (in a looking through your fingers way) if Eddie was sacked and replaced by SCW.