Ireland 2022/2023 - moving on

First topic message reminder :

The IRFU have been taking care of business whilst the national team have been taking the plaudits for their successful NZ tour series.  

A week after the 3rd test, Leinster announced their new IRFU-approved CEO to take over from the long-serving and very successful Mick Dawson.  As the wags put it, they searched Google and came up with their man - Shane Nolan -  a Google executive who happens to be a longtime Leinster fan with a strong remit to build up the commercial side of the business including delivering the revamped RDS stadium and a lot more corporate backing.  

Only a couple of days later, up popped the new CEO of the IRFU, Kevin Potts, to say they’d already sat down with Andy Farrell before he headed off to NZ and agreed a two-year extension to his contract with options to extend further if certain performance markers were met.  Presumably that includes not just winning a RWC quarterfinal for the first time…

Farrell is being given the resources and budget to develop the best squad possible including a stronger input into provincial selections and development of all of his likely RWC squad players.  

One gets the impression that IRFU supremo Kevin Potts is going for broke at his first attempt in securing greater success in the RWC than his long-term predecessor, Phillip Browne, ever achieved.  

The Autumn Internationals and Emerging Ireland tour to SA provided an opportunity to develop a wider core of players outside Farrell’s 20-23 already selected cohort of players.  

O’Toole, Loughman, Baird, McCarthy, Timoney, Carbery, Coombes, Casey, Larmour, Hume, Stockdale, Baloucoune, Frawley need greater club and country time this coming season, with possibly some being played out of their regular starting positions for province.  

With the Six Nations coming up, and squad named for the first 1-2 games, a number of players have dropped back, and only 1 uncapped player made it through - Jamie Osborne, who might get an opportunity from the bench during one of the games.

All in all, it continues to be an interesting season in the run-up to the RWC.

I think if they didn't have central contracts Earls and Stockdale wouldn't be there

I am a fan of Jacob Stockdale but he should not be anywhere near the Ireland squad even if he's still centrally contracted. He's a confidence player and he doesn't look like he's got much of that at the moment. He's lacking pitch time, form and confidence and the last thing his confidence needs is a big dent due to the 6N. Bad man management IMO.

The Carberry experiment failed a while ago, now Farrell has spotted that and it's been corrected, all better now.

Osbourne's inclusion is so well deserved, what a player.

It's a surprise when the Ulster fanbase say one of their own shouldn't be in the squad, but that is certainly the case for Stockdale. As already said he needs to rebuild his confidence before being considered for further international appearances. I would have had Lowry in for additional full back cover.

They have gone with the wrong Munster winger in Earls, Nash deserves that place.

Great to see McCloskey in the centres.

Looks right at FH, unfortunately. Has too much time been spent backing the wrong back-up?

Should have selected Doak instead of Murray.

Would have liked to see Timoney in the back row, but couldn't honestly take him over any of those selected.

I hope Doak and Stewart get to spend time with the squad as part of development plans.

I haven't watched much rugby this season so my opinion shouldn't be worth much, but disagree with the Carbery omission and the prevailing consensus against him.

He hasn't exactly lit it up but has been reliable enough when Sexton's been out. Impressed in a tough game away against France last year which is far more noteworthy than looking good in an easy home game or club match.

Fans are likely frustrated he's not kicked on as hoped but think that's led to judgment going too far the other way. Also feel when we've invested in him for a while it's a bit panicked to try new options this close to RWC.

Maybe their form hasn't been great but disappointed Lowry and particularly Baloucoune aren't there as feel they have potential to add a lot on form. My feeling is there's no chance a Leinster winger would struggle to get into the reckoning if they scored a hat-trick away to Toulouse.

Second row, back row and centres are strong but depth at prop is concerning.

Having said all that it's still a squad capable of a GS

theslosty wrote:I haven't watched much rugby this season so my opinion shouldn't be worth much, but disagree with the Carbery omission and the prevailing consensus against him.

He hasn't exactly lit it up but has been reliable enough when Sexton's been out. Impressed in a tough game away against France last year which is far more noteworthy than looking good in an easy home game or club match.

Fans are likely frustrated he's not kicked on as hoped but think that's led to judgment going too far the other way. Also feel when we've invested in him for a while it's a bit panicked to try new options this close to RWC.

Maybe their form hasn't been great but disappointed Lowry and particularly Baloucoune aren't there as feel they have potential to add a lot on form. My feeling is there's no chance a Leinster winger would struggle to get into the reckoning if they scored a hat-trick away to Toulouse.

Second row, back row and centres are strong but depth at prop is concerning.

Having said all that it's still a squad capable of a GS

I can see where you are coming from anyway however, I think its good as it might give Carbery the kick in the bum he needs to start motoring again and with Munster picking up some form he may well have an opportunity to go on a run.

I dont see him as out of world cup contention because you know what you get with him already and if he had to be reintroduced Id say he would just slot back in. 10 is obviously our Achilles heal so if we finish the six nations with Byrne or Crowley having had a few good games and high on confidence we may be in a better spot.

I have always liked Ben Healy as a player so his exodus grates a bit more than anything but thats another story.

There's a selection issue that hasn't been mentioned yet and it's regarding Lowe. He's back home in NZ for family reasons which is a reason that will always come first so he can't help that. However, if there's any likelyhood that he's going to be unavailable why name him on the squad when there are others waiting in the wings for their chance. I know they could be added at a later date but then again, so could Lowe.
I guess the memories up unavailable/injured players being selected for a tournament are still quite raw (e.g. Carberry's selection at the last RWC despite being injured).

theslosty wrote:I haven't watched much rugby this season so my opinion shouldn't be worth much, but disagree with the Carbery omission and the prevailing consensus against him.

He hasn't exactly lit it up but has been reliable enough when Sexton's been out. Impressed in a tough game away against France last year which is far more noteworthy than looking good in an easy home game or club match.

Fans are likely frustrated he's not kicked on as hoped but think that's led to judgment going too far the other way. Also feel when we've invested in him for a while it's a bit panicked to try new options this close to RWC.

Maybe their form hasn't been great but disappointed Lowry and particularly Baloucoune aren't there as feel they have potential to add a lot on form. My feeling is there's no chance a Leinster winger would struggle to get into the reckoning if they scored a hat-trick away to Toulouse.

Second row, back row and centres are strong but depth at prop is concerning.

Having said all that it's still a squad capable of a GS

Baloucoune is injured is he not? Surely the inclusion of Stockdale is proof that the coaches don't have any biases against certain provinces? Which seems to be what you were insuating above.

Not sure on Baloucoune's injury status but he doesn't appear to be a "Farrell" type winger at the moment. Lowe and Hansen both come in field "looking for work" fairly frequently (as did the Stockade of old), something Baloucoune doesn't do for Ulster much, or in his few international outings. I don't know why this is, coaching or lack of confidence or what, but the infield work seems to what Farrell wants.

The cynical part of me reckons Earls, Stockade and Murray are in because of central contracts and nothing else. Stockdale is about to his lose his apparently, don't know about Earls.

theslosty wrote: I haven't watched much rugby this season so my opinion shouldn't be worth much, but disagree with the Carbery omission and the prevailing consensus against him.

At 10 for Munster he has Been really poor. When Healy was still at Munster the majority of posters on their fans forum seem to be saying Carberry should not be in the 23 for them, let alone playing for Ireland.
I agree with Farrell's decision from what I have seen watching both Munster and Ireland

theslosty wrote: Maybe their form hasn't been great but disappointed Lowry and particularly Baloucoune aren't there as feel they have potential to add a lot on form. My feeling is there's no chance a Leinster winger would struggle to get into the reckoning if they scored a hat-trick away to Toulouse.

Baloucoune needs to work harder looking for possession and needs to get injured less
Lowry is one of a long list of Ulster backs whose form has been poor this year - add Stockdale, Hume and Burns to that list

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

theslosty wrote:Maybe their form hasn't been great but disappointed Lowry and particularly Baloucoune aren't there as feel they have potential to add a lot on form. My feeling is there's no chance a Leinster winger would struggle to get into the reckoning if they scored a hat-trick away to Toulouse.

Baloucoune is injured is he not? Surely the inclusion of Stockdale is proof that the coaches don't have any biases against certain provinces? Which seems to be what you were insuating above.

Fair enough if he's injured but he didn't get much a shot in the Autumn or on the NZ tour either. It just seems Baloucoune, Lowry and Hume can perform really well for 18 months or so but as soon as Ulster hit poor form they're all immediately cut from the squad. I don't mean any disrespect to players like Osbourne or Jimmy O'Brien but doesn't appear they have to do as much to get noticed.

In my opinion you want at least one winger with elite pace to win the World Cup and Baloucoune is our best chance of that. Like I say, it's that hat trick in Toulouse that really marked himself as of that calibre and I'm just struggling to imagine a Leinster winger doing the same and still struggle for international recognition. It's a gut feeling of mine rather than a fully fledged position. I don't have hard evidence to back it up but think if you went through Schmidt and then Farrell's tenures you'll generally find very few Leinster players that would have felt wronged and many Ulster players that lost out on marginal decisions.

I don't believe it's coaches' bias, certainly not in Farrell's case anyway, but maybe institutionally in the whole IRFU set up Leinster are in a favourable position. It could be as simple as geographical proximity as I presume Farrell is based in Dublin and as a result sees more of the Leinster squad.

Take your point re Stockdale, suspect that might be a central contract selection but at his best he's similarly such a potent weapon. I remember watching that epic Euro QF between Leinster and Ulster in 2019 and thinking Stockdale is absolutely unplayable here, but since he dropped that try over the line he's not been the same since.

theslosty wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

theslosty wrote:Maybe their form hasn't been great but disappointed Lowry and particularly Baloucoune aren't there as feel they have potential to add a lot on form. My feeling is there's no chance a Leinster winger would struggle to get into the reckoning if they scored a hat-trick away to Toulouse.

Baloucoune is injured is he not? Surely the inclusion of Stockdale is proof that the coaches don't have any biases against certain provinces? Which seems to be what you were insuating above.

Fair enough if he's injured but he didn't get much a shot in the Autumn or on the NZ tour either. It just seems Baloucoune, Lowry and Hume can perform really well for 18 months or so but as soon as Ulster hit poor form they're all immediately cut from the squad. I don't mean any disrespect to players like Osbourne or Jimmy O'Brien but doesn't appear they have to do as much to get noticed.

In my opinion you want at least one winger with elite pace to win the World Cup and Baloucoune is our best chance of that. Like I say, it's that hat trick in Toulouse that really marked himself as of that calibre and I'm just struggling to imagine a Leinster winger doing the same and still struggle for international recognition. It's a gut feeling of mine rather than a fully fledged position. I don't have hard evidence to back it up but think if you went through Schmidt and then Farrell's tenures you'll generally find very few Leinster players that would have felt wronged and many Ulster players that lost out on marginal decisions.

I don't believe it's coaches' bias, certainly not in Farrell's case anyway, but maybe institutionally in the whole IRFU set up Leinster are in a favourable position. It could be as simple as geographical proximity as I presume Farrell is based in Dublin and as a result sees more of the Leinster squad.

Take your point re Stockdale, suspect that might be a central contract selection but at his best he's similarly such a potent weapon. I remember watching that epic Euro QF between Leinster and Ulster in 2019 and thinking Stockdale is absolutely unplayable here, but since he dropped that try over the line he's not been the same since.

Baloucoune played in 2/3 games in the autumn, which is hardly not being given a shot to be fair. I don't really see what you're getting at with O'Brien and Osbourne? JOB has been brilliant for Leinster for years and starred against the springboks in the autumn. Osbourne is one of the hottest young prospects in the country and coming off a motm performance away in Europe. I haven't seen anyone else question their inclusions. I agree with your comments regarding Stockdale.

Osborne looked good against Gloucester last week. Looks a great prospect.

Big fan of O’Brien.
Shame re Stockdale, was on fire a few years back in the 6 nations and the win v the all blacks.

Tom Stewart called up - Kelleher out

Well deserved and could easily be a bolter for the World Cup, especially if Kelleher continues to struggle injury wise

Welsh team announced extremely early.

15: Halfpenny
14: Adams
13: North
12: Hawkins
11: Dyer
10: Biggar
9: T Williams

1: G Thomas
2: Owens (capt)
3: Francis
4: Beard
5: Alun Wyn Jones
6: Morgan
7: Tipuric
8: Faletau

Replacements: Baldwin, Carre, Lewis, Jenkins, Reffell, Webb, O Williams, Cuthbert

Looks quite an old side but a good side. Id say at least half of them are over 30. No Rhys Zammit is he injured? Dyer is very good too anyway as is Adams.

LRZ is injured. The selection is forced somewhat by injuries and inexperience. I probably would have gambled a bit more and also gone for a bigger back-row. The selection has safety written on it, and could backfire if Ireland do what they do best (hold onto possession).

Are Sexton and Furlong available for you?

Yes on both counts I believe

Karl Dickson on whistle for this match. Not sure why it is that scrum halves love to go on to be refs such as Frank Murphy, Alain Roland, JP Doyle and Nic Berry to name a few others.

Collapse2005 wrote:Karl Dickson on whistle for this match. Not sure why it is that scrum halves love to go on to be refs such as Frank Murphy, Alain Roland, JP Doyle and Nic Berry to name a few others.

Interesting thought.... used to running around from breakdown to breakdown 2 steps from the referee when playing.... think they know the rules and ref the game from 9 anyway..... don't get the wear/tear injuries that would physically impact on a pack/centres ability to run around for 80 minutes after enduring a professional career (why not wingers? leave the fast idiot out on the wing.... oohhh shots fired.... slow idiots become props anyway) .... never earned the salary of the marquee positions to have a nest egg to retire on so need an ongoing job.... the 9 isn't quite a back or part of the pack so feel removed slightly from a team making the transition to blowing the whistle easier.... the 9 is told to create a positive relationship with the referee during the match to curry favour, so is the cost of this a stockholm syndrome style appreciation for the referee role?

As much as Murray and Earls have been great for Ireland, I do believe that they are only in the squad now due to central contracts.

I also have not watched too much rugby this season or even followed the news as much due to work commitments. Has John Cooney completely fallen off the radar, out of form or injured? I really rated him not long back and thought he was destined to be Murray's replacement.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Karl Dickson on whistle for this match. Not sure why it is that scrum halves love to go on to be refs such as Frank Murphy, Alain Roland, JP Doyle and Nic Berry to name a few others.

Interesting thought.... used to running around from breakdown to breakdown 2 steps from the referee when playing.... think they know the rules and ref the game from 9 anyway..... don't get the wear/tear injuries that would physically impact on a pack/centres ability to run around for 80 minutes after enduring a professional career (why not wingers? leave the fast idiot out on the wing.... oohhh shots fired.... slow idiots become props anyway) .... never earned the salary of the marquee positions to have a nest egg to retire on so need an ongoing job.... the 9 isn't quite a back or part of the pack so feel removed slightly from a team making the transition to blowing the whistle easier.... the 9 is told to create a positive relationship with the referee during the match to curry favour, so is the cost of this a stockholm syndrome style appreciation for the referee role?

Brilliant

eirebilly_01 wrote:As much as Murray and Earls have been great for Ireland, I do believe that they are only in the squad now due to central contracts.

I also have not watched too much rugby this season or even followed the news as much due to work commitments. Has John Cooney completely fallen off the radar, out of form or injured? I really rated him not long back and thought he was destined to be Murray's replacement.

Cooney has been ignored for one reason only and that reason captains the side. John has been talking to Townsend re: running out for Scotland. If it's his only hope of international honours then more power to him but if he does he'll be looking for a contract away from Ulster so fingers crossed he forgoes the Scotland colours.

Match thread here: https://www.606v2.com/t70955-wales-v-ireland-6n-championship-saturday-4th-february-2023#4074489