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Welsh Rugby Vote

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 25 Oct 2022, 2:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

This is the only thread left that hasn't been locked, so I guess this is the only appropriate place to discuss the big vote that is going ahead next weekend and the need to change.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugby-clubs-vote-significant-25325497

What do we all think ?

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Post by RugbyFan100 Thu 03 Nov 2022, 10:15 am

LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:It's quite possible to believe that both the WRU and the Community game are not fit for purpose. It is not a binary matter.

The same can be said about the pro game as well, they do not exactly cover themselves in glory.


Absolutely. So I don'ty know why you are trying to claim [in your words] - "people who support the pro game are getting annoyed at the wrong people."

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 03 Nov 2022, 10:47 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:It's quite possible to believe that both the WRU and the Community game are not fit for purpose. It is not a binary matter.

The same can be said about the pro game as well, they do not exactly cover themselves in glory.


Absolutely. So I don'ty know why you are trying to claim [in your words] - "people who support the pro game are getting annoyed at the wrong people."

Perhaps they should aim their annoyance towards the WRU and not the community game. OK

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Post by RugbyFan100 Thu 03 Nov 2022, 11:13 am

LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:It's quite possible to believe that both the WRU and the Community game are not fit for purpose. It is not a binary matter.

The same can be said about the pro game as well, they do not exactly cover themselves in glory.


Absolutely. So I don'ty know why you are trying to claim [in your words] - "people who support the pro game are getting annoyed at the wrong people."

Perhaps they should aim their annoyance towards the WRU and not the community game. OK

I refuse to accept you are this dim.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 03 Nov 2022, 12:18 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:It's quite possible to believe that both the WRU and the Community game are not fit for purpose. It is not a binary matter.

The same can be said about the pro game as well, they do not exactly cover themselves in glory.


Absolutely. So I don'ty know why you are trying to claim [in your words] - "people who support the pro game are getting annoyed at the wrong people."

Perhaps they should aim their annoyance towards the WRU and not the community game. OK

I refuse to accept you are this dim.

There is just no compromise with you is there ?

Never mind.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 03 Nov 2022, 4:45 pm

Dowlais, people are always angry at the WRU. Right now people are particularly angry at certain board members, the ones who represent amateur clubs, who veto all and sundry..

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 03 Nov 2022, 5:03 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Dowlais, people are always angry at the WRU. Right now people are particularly angry at certain board members, the ones who represent amateur clubs, who veto all and sundry..

I would veto it as well.

If I was putting my vote to something, I would need to agree its for the best of everyone. The WRU have not really handled this well, and when the vote gets thrown out because of it, everyone seems to say it's the backwards community club owners who are at fault.

Sometimes people need to see things from both sides of the debate, after all everyone has a vested interest in how rugby in Wales should be looked after.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Thu 03 Nov 2022, 5:19 pm

LordDowlais wrote:after all everyone has a vested interest in how rugby in Wales should be looked after.

I don't.

I only have a vested interest in the pro game. I couldn't care less about the community game, as long as it's competetly run. I don't support a community club. Mine went bust 20 years ago.

The pro game should run the pro game. The community game should run the community game. At the moment, the community game has a say in everything. So rugby in Wales is dying. Because of the communuity clubs.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 03 Nov 2022, 5:23 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:after all everyone has a vested interest in how rugby in Wales should be looked after.

I don't.

I only have a vested interest in the pro game. I couldn't care less about the community game, as long as it's competetly run. I don't support a community club. Mine went bust 20 years ago.

The pro game should run the pro game. The community game should run the community game. At the moment, the community game has a say in everything. So rugby in Wales is dying. Because of the communuity clubs.

And there you have it.

You are the exact same problem as what you accuse the community game of.

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Post by RiscaGame Fri 04 Nov 2022, 3:36 am

LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:after all everyone has a vested interest in how rugby in Wales should be looked after.

I don't.

I only have a vested interest in the pro game. I couldn't care less about the community game, as long as it's competetly run. I don't support a community club. Mine went bust 20 years ago.

The pro game should run the pro game. The community game should run the community game. At the moment, the community game has a say in everything. So rugby in Wales is dying. Because of the communuity clubs.

And there you have it.

You are the exact same problem as what you accuse the community game of.

Well he’s not. The two games should be separate. You like to bang on about how the pro teams waste money, without acknowledging that it’s their own money to burn. It’s not a WRU tv deal. It’s not the WRU CVC money. You like to say the pro teams should answer to somebody, but who do the semi pro or amateur clubs answer to? Why when Merthyr are blowing cash and not winning a lot now, don’t they get asked what they’re doing with their guaranteed money? The amateur teams can need more money, but what of those that pay players ? You like to say the pro teams burn money, but don’t acknowledge how some amateur teams do too. So why shouldn’t there be different boards? Why should you slag off the pro teams, but hold them back in votes?

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 04 Nov 2022, 7:36 am

RiscaGame wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:after all everyone has a vested interest in how rugby in Wales should be looked after.

I don't.

I only have a vested interest in the pro game. I couldn't care less about the community game, as long as it's competetly run. I don't support a community club. Mine went bust 20 years ago.

The pro game should run the pro game. The community game should run the community game. At the moment, the community game has a say in everything. So rugby in Wales is dying. Because of the communuity clubs.

And there you have it.

You are the exact same problem as what you accuse the community game of.

Well he’s not. The two games should be separate. You like to bang on about the pro teams waste money, without acknowledging that it’s their own money to burn. It’s not a WRU tv deal. It’s not the WRU CVC money. You like to say the pro teams should answer to somebody, but who do the semi pro or amateur clubs answer to? Why when Merthyr are blowing cash and not winning a lot now, don’t they get asked what they’re doing with their guaranteed money? The amateur teams can need more money, but what of those that pay players ? You like to say the pro teams burn money, but don’t acknowledge how some amateur teams do too. So why shouldn’t there be different boards? Why should you slag off the pro teams, but hold them back in votes?

Again, just another jibe.

I am not saying anyone is innocent, all the areas of rugby in Wales need to take a look at themselves.

RugbyFan100 does not look at the debate from both sides, as he only cares about the pro game.

Two things here, I have said, and it is on record on this very topic, on this very thread, that perhaps there should be a community game and a pro game both run separately. So why you are having a poke about that I do not know.

Secondly, I do not slag off the Pro teams. I am blunt, I will give you that, but I do not slag them off, I say it how I see it. The thing is, you just don't like it, but that's life, its not personal.

This whole debacle is not helped by the pro teams and the way they conduct themselves. Christ, you cannot tell me as pro team fans that your team does not frustrate the life out of you ? There's is a lot within the community game that really boils my pee, there is just no one else but me on here who really follows the community game to talk about it. Nobody is squeaky clean here.

What does irk me though, is when people harp on about backwards community people holding the game back and when people harp on about people in the community game wanting to keep the gravy train........

The truth is, both entities of the game in Wales, in my opinion should be working for the good of each other, not to the detriment of each other. They need to be harmonic. One should not feel threatened by the other, and in all honesty, the WRU need to fix that, and bridges need to be built.

If the WRU were not explaining the process and procedures that they were intending the new independent chairman to carry out clearly, then in all honesty I would not vote for it, if the WRU would not listen to any concerns then again I would not vote for it.

People keep saying that a £100M business needs to be run professionally, then fine, lets run it that way, but at the moment, we are miles away from being fully pro. Lets start doing something we can all trust in.




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Post by Irish Londoner Fri 04 Nov 2022, 8:56 am

Some good points from both of you, but the issues remain, the amateur clubs for reasons of history and in some cases quite obviously ego, like the idea of them being in control of the game in Wales, the professional clubs on the other hand see that without a separation from the amateurs then there's very little chance of them progressing, and ultimately the WRU's interest in this is that the pro clubs keep producing international level players so that the Welsh national team stays competitive at the Tier 1 level, and ultimately it's the money from the international games that keeps the whole boat afloat.
I think that the quote from Torchwood should be hung in every clubhouse, dressing room and WRU office in Wales:
Gwen: But hold on, if no one can see it when the lift's coming up, there's a great big bloody hole in the floor. Don't people fall in?
Jack: That is so Welsh.
Gwen: What is?
Jack: I show you something fantastic; you find fault.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Fri 04 Nov 2022, 10:13 am

LordDowlais wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:after all everyone has a vested interest in how rugby in Wales should be looked after.

I don't.

I only have a vested interest in the pro game. I couldn't care less about the community game, as long as it's competetly run. I don't support a community club. Mine went bust 20 years ago.

The pro game should run the pro game. The community game should run the community game. At the moment, the community game has a say in everything. So rugby in Wales is dying. Because of the communuity clubs.

And there you have it.

You are the exact same problem as what you accuse the community game of.

Well he’s not. The two games should be separate. You like to bang on about the pro teams waste money, without acknowledging that it’s their own money to burn. It’s not a WRU tv deal. It’s not the WRU CVC money. You like to say the pro teams should answer to somebody, but who do the semi pro or amateur clubs answer to? Why when Merthyr are blowing cash and not winning a lot now, don’t they get asked what they’re doing with their guaranteed money? The amateur teams can need more money, but what of those that pay players ? You like to say the pro teams burn money, but don’t acknowledge how some amateur teams do too. So why shouldn’t there be different boards? Why should you slag off the pro teams, but hold them back in votes?

Again, just another jibe.

I am not saying anyone is innocent, all the areas of rugby in Wales need to take a look at themselves.

RugbyFan100 does not look at the debate from both sides, as he only cares about the pro game.

Two things here, I have said, and it is on record on this very topic, on this very thread, that perhaps there should be a community game and a pro game both run separately. So why you are having a poke about that I do not know.

Secondly, I do not slag off the Pro teams. I am blunt, I will give you that, but I do not slag them off, I say it how I see it. The thing is, you just don't like it, but that's life, its not personal.

This whole debacle is not helped by the pro teams and the way they conduct themselves. Christ, you cannot tell me as pro team fans that your team does not frustrate the life out of you ? There's is a lot within the community game that really boils my pee, there is just no one else but me on here who really follows the community game to talk about it. Nobody is squeaky clean here.

What does irk me though, is when people harp on about backwards community people holding the game back and when people harp on about people in the community game wanting to keep the gravy train........

The truth is, both entities of the game in Wales, in my opinion should be working for the good of each other, not to the detriment of each other. They need to be harmonic. One should not feel threatened by the other, and in all honesty, the WRU need to fix that, and bridges need to be built.

If the WRU were not explaining the process and procedures that they were intending the new independent chairman to carry out clearly, then in all honesty I would not vote for it, if the WRU would not listen to any concerns then again I would not vote for it.

People keep saying that a £100M business needs to be run professionally, then fine, lets run it that way, but at the moment, we are miles away from being fully pro. Lets start doing something we can all trust in.




You say all that, then in the same thread, claim you wouldn't vote to install an independent chair of the WRU - which would be the first step to identifying the very change you agree needs to happen.

Absolute hypocrit. I don't think you even know what you're debating for / against. You just seem to want an argument on the internet with somebody, whilst blindingly defending 'the community game'.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri 04 Nov 2022, 11:22 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:You say all that, then in the same thread, claim you wouldn't vote to install an independent chair of the WRU - which would be the first step to identifying the very change you agree needs to happen.

I didnt say I wouldnt vote for it. For Gods sake.

I said, I wouldn't vote for it if I did not know what I was voting for. The WRU needs to be clear.

RugbyFan100 wrote:Absolute hypocrit. I don't think you even know what you're debating for / against. You just seem to want an argument on the internet with somebody, whilst blindingly defending 'the community game'.

WOW. I have no words for this.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Nov 2022, 9:41 am

LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:It's quite possible to believe that both the WRU and the Community game are not fit for purpose. It is not a binary matter.

The same can be said about the pro game as well, they do not exactly cover themselves in glory.


Absolutely. So I don'ty know why you are trying to claim [in your words] - "people who support the pro game are getting annoyed at the wrong people."

Perhaps they should aim their annoyance towards the WRU and not the community game. OK

The community game puts the people into the WRU, Dowlais

That's why others are getting to the end of their tether with you.
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Post by LordDowlais Wed 16 Nov 2022, 9:57 am

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:It's quite possible to believe that both the WRU and the Community game are not fit for purpose. It is not a binary matter.

The same can be said about the pro game as well, they do not exactly cover themselves in glory.


Absolutely. So I don'ty know why you are trying to claim [in your words] - "people who support the pro game are getting annoyed at the wrong people."

Perhaps they should aim their annoyance towards the WRU and not the community game. OK

The community game puts the people into the WRU, Dowlais

That's why others are getting to the end of their tether with you.

Ah OK.

As long as you have said this, it must be OK.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Nov 2022, 10:35 am

LordDowlais wrote:

Ah OK.

As long as you have said this, it must be OK.

Well, if we move beyond the childishness of your response (which is cringeworthy and embarrassing for an adult), let's look at who sits on the WRU Board:

https://community.wru.wales/governance/rugby-boards/wru-board/

Chair - has to come from the WRU Council (https://community.wru.wales/governance/rugby-boards/wru-council/ you'll note that ALL council members come from the community game)
Buchanan - because he sits on the Council
Phillips - appointed by the WRU Board
Young - WRU Council
Thomas - WRU Council
Evans - WRU Council
Engelhardt - Non-Exec
Read - Non-Exec
Wilks - District A
Jones - District G
Wall - Professional Game

So that is 7 is from the Community Game and 1 from the Professional Game

Now do you see how the Community Game "puts the people into the WRU", Dowlais? I hope you do as I've just proven to you how that is the case.

Now that you understand (I hope) how "the Community Game puts people into the WRU", how do you view your previous posts in this thread?
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Post by LordDowlais Wed 16 Nov 2022, 3:10 pm

Trouble is with you Phil, in your opinion, you are never wrong.

It's all pointless, how you manage to debate with anyone is beyond me, it really is. You cannot look at anything bar from your own point of view.

Truth be told, I do not care whos on what committee. The problem we have is Welsh rugby is broken, because everybody is working against each other and just looking after their own interests.

I will leave it at that, because to be blunt, people are just getting to the end of their tether with you. There is no debate with you, we are all just told how it is by you and in your mind, we must all accept that.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 16 Nov 2022, 3:11 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

Truth be told, I do not care whos on what committee.

A few posts ago you did. Because you wantwed us to blame the WRU not the community game.

Now you don't care.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 16 Nov 2022, 3:13 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

Truth be told, I do not care whos on what committee.  

A few posts ago you did. Because you wantwed us to blame the WRU not the community game.

Now you don't care.

No I didn't. For christ sakes.

I said that the WRU did not handle the whole process very well. That is what I said you should blame the WRU for.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Nov 2022, 3:16 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Trouble is with you Phil, in your opinion, you are never wrong.

It's all pointless, how you manage to debate with anyone is beyond me, it really is. You cannot look at anything bar from your own point of view.

Truth be told, I do not care whos on what committee. The problem we have is Welsh rugby is broken, because everybody is working against each other and just looking after their own interests.

I will leave it at that, because to be blunt, people are just getting to the end of their tether with you. There is no debate with you, we are all just told how it is by you and in your mind, we must all accept that.

Ok, that's nice. However, here, I wasn't offering an opinion. I was presenting facts. I can't look at anything "bar my point of view" in this instance because my point of view is based on the facts I've just presented.

I just proved to you how the community clubs put people "in the WRU". I just proved to you how the community clubs control the Board of the WRU.

If you think any of that post is factually incorrect, please point it out.

There are two options here -

1. All that I wrote about the composition of the WRU Board is correct
or
2. Not all that I wrote about the composition of the WRU Board is correct

If you believe 1. then we can move forward and you can now understand how the community clubs control the WRU. If you believe 2., please point out where you think I've made an error.

If it's 1, you will then care who is on which committee because it is only by changing those committees will Welsh rugby heal itself. And that is what we all want, right? So, first of all its time to recognise the problems (i.e. the make up of the WRU) and then we'll all be able to pull in the same direction to fix it.

So is it 1. or 2.?
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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Nov 2022, 3:16 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

Truth be told, I do not care whos on what committee.  

A few posts ago you did. Because you wantwed us to blame the WRU not the community game.

Now you don't care.

No I didn't. For christ sakes.

I said that the WRU did not handle the whole process very well. That is what I said you should blame the WRU for.

And, as I've taken time to point out to you, the "WRU" is what the community clubs want it to be.
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Post by LordDowlais Wed 16 Nov 2022, 3:24 pm

I have already said in this thread, and now I am repeating myself.

I think that there should be a Pro side and a community side, but they should both work for the benefit of each other, not to the detriment of each other.

There is wrong doing on both sides, and the WRU need to do more to fix it, not the debacle from two weeks ago when Butcher from Bargoed just tried to hurry and shoe horn through an idea without any true thought behind it without a plan going forwards then up and leave when it did not go his way, no.

It needs to be clear and concise and everybody needs to know exactly what is being proposed. If it was, then perhaps we would not be here now arguing over it.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 17 Nov 2022, 10:18 am

LordDowlais wrote:I have already said in this thread, and now I am repeating myself.

I think that there should be a Pro side and a community side, but they should both work for the benefit of each other, not to the detriment of each other.

There is wrong doing on both sides, and the WRU need to do more to fix it, not the debacle from two weeks ago when Butcher from Bargoed just tried to hurry and shoe horn through an idea without any true thought behind it without a plan going forwards then up and leave when it did not go his way, no.

It needs to be clear and concise and everybody needs to know exactly what is being proposed. If it was, then perhaps we would not be here now arguing over it.

Spot on. I couldn't agree with you more
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Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Nov 2022, 8:01 am

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sam-warburton-stone-age-welsh-game-needs-cut-throat-reforms-but-i-know-it-won-t-happen-rl5xzkf8t

Warburton is pretty much spot on here, noting how the Community Game dominate the WRU Board.
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Post by Oakdene Wed 23 Nov 2022, 8:20 am

PhilBB wrote:https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sam-warburton-stone-age-welsh-game-needs-cut-throat-reforms-but-i-know-it-won-t-happen-rl5xzkf8t

Warburton is pretty much spot on here, noting how the Community Game dominate the WRU Board.

The community game should have no say on the professional game. It is illogical that a group of people from village & town amateur team has a say on how professional rugby is run.

The majority of the community game committee members are people over the age of 60 who remember the good old days of rugby & how it used to be done!

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 23 Nov 2022, 8:26 am

Warburton spot on again. Sadly, he was also correct about how things will stay the same.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Nov 2022, 10:13 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Warburton spot on again. Sadly, he was also correct about how things will stay the same.

I'm not sure they can stay the same. The present WRU Executive (well Phillips and his bookkeeper) are genuinely seen as 'the enemy' by the four pro clubs. They can't work with these people.

The game in Wales is on a knife edge. Players don't know if they will be paid beyond Christmas. Phillips is killing the game at every level.
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Welsh Rugby Vote - Page 3 Empty Re: Welsh Rugby Vote

Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Nov 2022, 5:05 pm

https://www.the42.ie/rugby-weekly-extra-welsh-rugby-5763644-Nov2022/?utm_source=shortlink

And, as if by magic....
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