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England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Post by mountain man Mon 17 Oct 2022, 11:38 am

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 19 Nov 2022, 10:41 pm

Have to say Vunipola was really poor with his discipline and didn't make the metres he used to. It was seemingly Dombrandt s shirt before his injury but now dropped out of sight it just feels odd. Simmonds looked an 8 playing at 6 before being hooked. Nowell offered nothing, but the pack was very much second best for about 65 mins.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 19 Nov 2022, 10:44 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
TJ wrote:IMO the main issue with England selections is the centres.  Have the best back 3 in the world but with the current centres they will not get any decent passes in space

Really. Right. OK. Dear me.

I said last week, the dilemma is at centre and back-row. Lozoswki should be in, could slot in at 10, 12, or 13. No Marchant or Lawrence either. Have to agree that as of late Curry gives away too many penalties, needs to work on that. England have plenty of 6 and 8’s.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 19 Nov 2022, 10:46 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
TJ wrote:IMO the main issue with England selections is the centres.  Have the best back 3 in the world but with the current centres they will not get any decent passes in space

Really. Right. OK. Dear me.

I said last week, the dilemma is at centre and back-row. Lozoswki should be in, could slot in at 10, 12, or 13. No  Marchant or Lawrence either. Have to agree that as of late Curry gives away too many penalties, needs to work on that. England have plenty of 6 and 8’s.

Lol. Yeah you did! Lol.

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Post by Yoda Sat 19 Nov 2022, 10:51 pm

Last 10 mins showed we can play a bit. Eddie please take note, should be our blue print for attack. Offloading and shifting the ball worked wonders. Penalties still killing us especially the really brainless ones. I think Billy managed about six daft penalties in the game. The ref definitely got the call wrong for their second try when Genge's bind was textbook irb ruling. But hey you win some and lose some and apparently draw some.

JVP will learn from the game as was targeted and was schooled a bit. Freddie was quality at the back and porter did more in five minutes than Nowell did in 70. I'm a fan of Nowell but feel he's not been given enough time at club level to get back to match sharpness.

For NZ, can't see cane getting back in the team and why is their best winger playing at 13?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 19 Nov 2022, 11:01 pm

Just watching the aftermath for once. Did like Gatlands question to Carter on whether Farrells injury leading to Smith taking kicks for touch, kick offs and from place led to the more prominent performance in the loose. Perhaps.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 19 Nov 2022, 11:14 pm

The loose attacking structure with multiple playmakers and the whole XV meant to be able to slot in when it's on was a bold move but one we simply haven't had the players to execute. Once again the team stuttered for much of the game.

I'd move to Faz or Smith at 10 depending on the opposition and game plan with the other on the bench for impact. Personally I'd ere towards Farrell starting (some of his attacking play with Sarries this season has been phenomenal) with Smith to come on as the opposition tires, try to open things up with a strong bench. Ideally bringing Marler back to strengthen LH and use LCD from the bench. A forward bench such as Marler, LCD, Stuart, Chessum and Willis should have great impact.

If Arundell is fit for the Six Nations I'd take a punt on him as a winger. I'd love for Watson to get back involved too - Tigers big break from games due to Wasps and Wuss situation came at a bad time for him proving fitness.

Lawrence deserves to be thereabouts too.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 19 Nov 2022, 11:19 pm

Yeah. There are just player selection picks that would make sense even with the current tactics for me.

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Post by Heaf Sat 19 Nov 2022, 11:38 pm

Yoda wrote:Last 10 mins showed we can play a bit. Eddie please take note, should be our blue print for attack. Offloading and shifting the ball worked wonders. Penalties still killing us especially the really brainless ones. I think Billy managed about six daft penalties in the game. The ref definitely got the call wrong for their second try when Genge's bind was textbook irb ruling. But hey you win some and lose some and apparently draw some.

JVP will learn from the game as was targeted and was schooled a bit. Freddie was quality at the back and porter did more in five minutes than Nowell did in 70. I'm a fan of Nowell but feel he's not been given enough time at club level to get back to match sharpness.

For NZ, can't see cane getting back in the team and why is their best winger playing at 13?

He got the scrum pen wrong before their 1st try too when the NZ long-legged prop face-planted, the play after he'd given a knock-on against JVP when he hadn't touched the ball Rolling Eyes

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Post by Northgrill Sun 20 Nov 2022, 12:19 am

RiscaGame wrote:Steff Thomas (a journo I rate very highly) has just said Steward must be close to being the best FB in the world.

He’s definitely up there. Keenan is superb too. I’d probably have him ahead of Steward for his open field running.

Great result for us considering the first 70. Thought Farrell was excellent when he stepped in at for 1st receiver today. Put players through gaps and takes it to the line better than Smith IMO. Love Smiths ability to run but not he hasn’t managed to get the backline running at all this year.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 20 Nov 2022, 4:08 am

Around 70mins in.....we're getting humped 6-21, I decide in my wisdom to go to bed (I'm 3hrs ahead, it was 2215). Wake up and check the score.......oh bugger.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 20 Nov 2022, 4:39 am

Anyway, from what I seen.

JVP was dreadful, one of the worst scrum half performances I've seen since Bergamasco. Everything he did was ponderous...even Youngs doesn't play this bad. I would drop him for SA and bring Mitchell in, he doesn't deserve his place.

Nowell needs to go too....so so slow. We can't have a back 3 with him and Steward in it, it just lacks too much pace. Simmonds also struggled, I wouldn't have him anywhere the squad.

On the plus, Ribbans is coming into his own. I've always been a fan and he is pushing for a start over Hill who lacks a bit at the top end. Steward was solid and Smith was growing into the game (when I went to bed).

I don't like to complain about the ref but he was awful, for both sides. Whoever seemed on top in the game got everything (it just so happened that this was NZ most of the time).

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Post by nathan Sun 20 Nov 2022, 8:02 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Anyway, from what I seen.

JVP was dreadful, one of the worst scrum half performances I've seen since Bergamasco. Everything he did was ponderous...even Youngs doesn't play this bad. I would drop him for SA and bring Mitchell in, he doesn't deserve his place.

Nowell needs to go too....so so slow. We can't have a back 3 with him and Steward in it, it just lacks too much pace. Simmonds also struggled, I wouldn't have him anywhere the squad.

On the plus, Ribbans is coming into his own. I've always been a fan and he is pushing for a start over Hill who lacks a bit at the top end. Steward was solid and Smith was growing into the game (when I went to bed).

I don't like to complain about the ref but he was awful, for both sides. Whoever seemed on top in the game got everything (it just so happened that this was NZ most of the time).

Drop him based on one performance when he's strung 5 or 6 good ones together?

That's the fickle thinking I expect from Eddie?

A few of his "errors" were actually the refs errors.

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Post by mountain man Sun 20 Nov 2022, 8:04 am

Fantastic comeback to get draw, have to admit for majority of match I thought it was all over as NZ totally outplayed England.
JvP had probably his worst game for any team he's ever played for, but it happens. He's still a brilliant player so hopefully this hasn't affected him too much and I hope Jones shows faith in him and starts him v SA.
Nowell though is gone, has to be. Not quick enough and got done under high ball too many times. Youngs in fairness did well when he came on apart from one aimless box kick into NZ 22, however I suspect he just looked so much better in comparison to JvP!
Even Mako did OK and I've been big critic. However, if he's retained for SA can see him struggle in scrum against them.
Smith Farrell still not really working. I'd start Farrell 10 with Smith bench. Manu best days gone now for sure, but we knew that really.

But writing all that we know Jones and know he'll be highly likely to keep same squad with maybe 1 or 2 tweaks.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 20 Nov 2022, 8:06 am

Therws no way on this earth I'd drop van Poortvliet because of yesterday's game. You've got to back a player when you give them a chance. He's clearly good enough but he did let some combined errors (both him and the ref) get to him. Wanted to say how well Farrell communicated to the ref yesterday too, he was superb. Summed up in 3 little bits. After the charge down at the rick he waited until England had a clearing penalty and asked the ref if he could shout when he felt the ball was out for van Poortvliet (as it hadn't been!). Ref said yes.
Then after another pen at a lineour several players questioning the ref he told them all it didn't matter and got them to retreat straight away in front of the ref.
Finally then asking the ref quietly about the possibility of a pen try when it wasn't in his mind. Clearly wasn't but Raynal then checked.

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Post by Margin_Walker Sun 20 Nov 2022, 8:21 am

Agree. Was a poor performance from JVP, but it was made to look worse than it was by being completely stitched up by a couple of calls from Raynal (ball's out when it absolutely wasn't and the non existent knock on)

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 20 Nov 2022, 8:25 am

nathan wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Anyway, from what I seen.

JVP was dreadful, one of the worst scrum half performances I've seen since Bergamasco. Everything he did was ponderous...even Youngs doesn't play this bad. I would drop him for SA and bring Mitchell in, he doesn't deserve his place.

Nowell needs to go too....so so slow. We can't have a back 3 with him and Steward in it, it just lacks too much pace. Simmonds also struggled, I wouldn't have him anywhere the squad.

On the plus, Ribbans is coming into his own. I've always been a fan and he is pushing for a start over Hill who lacks a bit at the top end. Steward was solid and Smith was growing into the game (when I went to bed).

I don't like to complain about the ref but he was awful, for both sides. Whoever seemed on top in the game got everything (it just so happened that this was NZ most of the time).

Drop him based on one performance when he's strung 5 or 6 good ones together?

That's the fickle thinking I expect from Eddie?

A few of his "errors" were actually the refs errors.

I don't think we can put too much on the ref for his multiple errors.....charged down, intercept etc etc. I'd drop him for the SA game...there needs to be some consequence to playing so badly. People talk about rewarding good form, well the opposite applies here surely?

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Post by mountain man Sun 20 Nov 2022, 8:29 am

Disagree. His confidence be shattered if dropped. There's a case for bench but get him on with say 20 to go but I definitely wouldn't drop him from match squad.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 20 Nov 2022, 9:02 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
nathan wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Anyway, from what I seen.

JVP was dreadful, one of the worst scrum half performances I've seen since Bergamasco. Everything he did was ponderous...even Youngs doesn't play this bad. I would drop him for SA and bring Mitchell in, he doesn't deserve his place.

Nowell needs to go too....so so slow. We can't have a back 3 with him and Steward in it, it just lacks too much pace. Simmonds also struggled, I wouldn't have him anywhere the squad.

On the plus, Ribbans is coming into his own. I've always been a fan and he is pushing for a start over Hill who lacks a bit at the top end. Steward was solid and Smith was growing into the game (when I went to bed).

I don't like to complain about the ref but he was awful, for both sides. Whoever seemed on top in the game got everything (it just so happened that this was NZ most of the time).

Drop him based on one performance when he's strung 5 or 6 good ones together?

That's the fickle thinking I expect from Eddie?

A few of his "errors" were actually the refs errors.

I don't think we can put too much on the ref for his multiple errors.....charged down, intercept etc etc. I'd drop him for the SA game...there needs to be some consequence to  playing so badly. People talk about rewarding good form, well the opposite applies here surely?

Charged down was about 4 yards off side though. And I think you have to give players a run. You don't drop then completely after a crap half of rugby. When you see me this week saying Dombrandt needs to come back its because an established player has made errors and produced poor performances across a number of games.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 20 Nov 2022, 9:02 am

I would still drop Youngs.

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Post by Cumbrian Sun 20 Nov 2022, 9:13 am

I was saying to my friend, why did they start playing like the Harlem Globetrotters when the game had already gone? Obviously I spoke too soon, but it seems interesting to me that England suddenly seem free to play when any expectation is lifted from them.
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Post by Heaf Sun 20 Nov 2022, 11:00 am

Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought Raynal was awful now .... perhaps we can get Rassie to make a video Whistle

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 20 Nov 2022, 11:30 am

Heaf wrote:Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought Raynal was awful now .... perhaps we can get Rassie to make a video Whistle

I don't think he had the best game lol. I honestly didn't think he started off that bad, just a few mistakes that could have went either way. We were stinking though that first 20mins.....so bad.

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Post by Geordie Sun 20 Nov 2022, 11:45 am

JVP will learn ALOT from that game. It'll be good for him....about the pace of the game, being switched on etc.

Too many players need to be gone now though...as many have said.

Pick a proper back row.
6 Hill / Willis
7 Curry
8 Dombrant

Pick wingers with pace and form.

We NEED to find a 12
We NEED to stop this Manu romance ..he's done. Put Lawrence In there at 13.

Decide on the best locks...and pick them. Ribbans could work...I prefer him to Johnny Hill.

Get shot of Nowell, Mako, Billy V etc

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 20 Nov 2022, 12:01 pm

Went back and watched most of it again.  Had a weird atmosphere - outside of the first 10 mins and the last 10 there was not much scoring, but most of the match felt like some weird England funeral, very somber.

The poor play by England and the ref are almost two different issues.  The ABs took advantage, as good teams do, but England were poor overall and deserved to be behind.  If the ref was perfect, England would still have been behind.

I think there are two burning questions coming out of yesterday.  First, what was the spark, that thing which sparked the come back.  We haven't seen great attacking Rugby by England like that against a top team in a long time.  Of course, the ABs, at the end of a long tour might have felt they were already in garbage time and, one man down, couldn't recover.  The other question is abut JvP.  It's not like a lot of good young players who have a mediocre game or two then continue to improve.  This was bad.  I forget which paper described him as a deer in the headlights, but that pretty much summed him up.  If he gets beat down by the Boks, it could destroy his confidence at the top level and potentially derail his international career.  On the other hand, if he gets back in the saddle, it could help him immensely.  The problem is England has just about run out of time to be developing a player who showed he could be rattled when building for the RWC.


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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 20 Nov 2022, 12:07 pm

This match kicked off at 2:30am in my time zone, and I lost patience with it towards the end of the first half, when we were 3-17 down. The first headline in the morning had a grinning Eddie Jones talking about magic dust, so I briefly imagined we'd won.

Consequently, I've got no proper perspective on this, including whether we should have played for the win. Farrell indicated England were prepared to play on, if they took the ball well it and it looked like something was on. The fact there was an "if" in that discussion at all, would probably have tipped the balance towards banking the draw.

Hard to know what to make of England. Yes, they can play like the last ten minutes but there is also ample evidence they can play like the first seventy too. Tough seeing our scrum under the pump, given that's how we lost the 2019 World Cup Final. There are quite a few decent international scrums around right now, so that's an alarm bell.

No small irony in JVP, the one player supporters and pundits insisted should start, cocking up. Hope he's the type of character who can bounce back.

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Post by mountain man Sun 20 Nov 2022, 12:10 pm

Nothing changes for me from previous thoughts.

I'd still start JvP and have Quirke/Mitchell bench if available.
Youngs was good off bench but really only did what a decent 9 should do. Just looked good compared to JvP.
Nowell out.
May out - yes I know but he's lost pace and that was his esp.
Mako out. Actually good when he came on but scrum too much a weakness.
Manu reluctantly out. Best days far gone sadly.
Billy out.
Hill still in balance but not convinced. Ribbans way better when he came on. Maybe start Ribbans with Itoje with Coles bench.

Dombrandt in at 8.
Earl in at 7.
Radwan bench option.
Arundell start if fit on wing.
Lawrence in.

As for Jones and his Magic Dust. God give me strength....

Bound to be others but that'll do for now.
Marchant in.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 20 Nov 2022, 12:26 pm

Funny about Ribbans, he's had 2 caps and given us exactly what I thought he would at lock. Perhaps someone who watches Northampton could give more detail on what has suddenly made Jones give him his chance now though as to me he's in similar for as 2 to 3 years ago.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sun 20 Nov 2022, 12:29 pm

Sarge, I thought hew was awful to start and got better as the game went on until he started making up for his decisions in the first half. Perhaps one of the ARs had a word with him at half time. Stuarts first try was very dubious in my opinion, I could see no clear grounding. Having said that, the AB that came in from the side (I think your allowed to do that behind the line) then started playing the ball off his feet moving it back in front of the line (if it was behind the line in the first place). If it was behind the line, it's a try; if still in front, probably a penalty try and a yellow card.

He did miss a few high tackles, there was one clearout where a shoulder definitely went into a defenders head at the ruck on the England line and to compound it, another defender was dragged out of the ruck with a neck roll be an AB entering from the side. Two YC missed.

On England's performance 60 minutes of abject dross. Other than Steward who was been fed the ball by the AB, no one else was playing well; the pack where okay but barely. BV was nothing like his old self, same goes for Curry, although he was an improvement on the last two weeks.
by.

On come the replacements, massive groan when Youngs came on but they mad a massive difference. Mako stayed standing up in a scrum and started to show the he is the mummy rhino to Genge's baby. Ribbans did what he does for Saints with a couple of lineout takes and then going on the rampage through the defensive line and getting the offload away. Even the ponderous Youngs was getting his passes away. Slade was silky and elusive, Porter made a massive difference to Nowell, who must surely have said goodbye to his international career, he was found wanting in so many ways.
 
Steward showed himself to be once again the man of the moment with some great runs finishing with that try.

I thought May had a decent game, came into it once he was given the ball. Again he was the only one following up on some very poor box kicking and seemed to be the only back that ever made any ground in that first 60 minutes.

The thing that I noticed and I think made a massive difference was that because Farrell was injured, he dropped into the 10 slot with Smith playing outside, inside or roving where ever the thought was best, this set the English backs alight. AB were tracking Smith and leaving holes for players coming at pace to run through or hit the line. We showed we can do it, so why didn't we for 60 minutes when we passed to stationary players or players backs just trotting along with AB right in front of them as everything was so slow.

Next week, I would like to see Freeman brought in on the right wing, May on the left. That gives us a fullback who is sensational under the high ball, a winger/full back with size and serious pace and a winger who is good under the high ball with serious pace (I would have said blistering, but I think May has lost a little bit). All three can kick returns very well.

SA are likely to play the bombardment game, we need players that are comfortable taking high balls under pressure. All of these three have the height and ability to do this.
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Post by doctor_grey Sun 20 Nov 2022, 1:52 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Funny about Ribbans, he's had 2 caps and given us exactly what I thought he would at lock. Perhaps someone who watches Northampton could give more detail on what has suddenly made Jones give him his chance now though as to me he's in similar for as 2 to 3 years ago.
No idea what goes through the mind of Eddie Jones. I can say that over the past few years Ribbans has gotten stronger and more nimble on his feet. And like most Saints under Chris Boyd, his ball handling and offloading skills have improved, and we saw some of that in the buildup to one of the tries.

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Post by Yoda Sun 20 Nov 2022, 1:59 pm

JVP did have a poor game but he will learn from this. Definitely targeted at the break down and wasn't get the rub of the green from the ref (I'm trying really hard to be nice after criticising rassie for ref bashing). I thought his opposite number didn't have a great game either as both sides went at it at the break down as both sides got away with alot. We should not drop him but nurture the talent. Being a scrum half can be bloody difficult when the opposition pack is in the ascendency but a lovely experience when you are on the front foot because it makes it easy to stand out positively. The only players I would consider dropping is Billy v, Nowell and Jonnie hill. All were replaced by guys who had much better games except Billy who continued to give away really soft penalties that could be argued cost us dear in the long run.

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Post by Yoda Sun 20 Nov 2022, 2:07 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Sarge, I thought hew was awful to start and got better as the game went on until he started making up for his decisions in the first half. Perhaps one of the ARs had a word with him at half time. Stuarts first try was very dubious in my opinion, I could see no clear grounding. Having said that, the AB that came in from the side (I think your allowed to do that behind the line) then started playing the ball off his feet moving it back in front of the line (if it was behind the line in the first place). If it was behind the line, it's a try; if still in front, probably a penalty try and a yellow card.

He did miss a few high tackles, there was one clearout where a shoulder definitely went into a defenders head at the ruck on the England line and to compound it, another defender was dragged out of the ruck with a neck roll be an AB entering from the side. Two YC missed.

On England's performance 60 minutes of abject dross. Other than Steward who was been fed the ball by the AB, no one else was playing well; the pack where okay but barely. BV was nothing like his old self, same goes for Curry, although he was an improvement on the last two weeks.
by.

On come the replacements, massive groan when Youngs came on but they mad a massive difference. Mako stayed standing up in a scrum and started to show the he is the mummy rhino to Genge's baby. Ribbans did what he does for Saints with a couple of lineout takes and then going on the rampage through the defensive line and getting the offload away. Even the ponderous Youngs was getting his passes away. Slade was silky and elusive, Porter made a massive difference to Nowell, who must surely have said goodbye to his international career, he was found wanting in so many ways.
 
Steward showed himself to be once again the man of the moment with some great runs finishing with that try.

I thought May had a decent game, came into it once he was given the ball. Again he was the only one following up on some very poor box kicking and seemed to be the only back that ever made any ground in that first 60 minutes.

The thing that I noticed and I think made a massive difference was that because Farrell was injured, he dropped into the 10 slot with Smith playing outside, inside or roving where ever the thought was best, this set the English backs alight. AB were tracking Smith and leaving holes for players coming at pace to run through or hit the line. We showed we can do it, so why didn't we for 60 minutes when we passed to stationary players or players backs just trotting along with AB right in front of them as everything was so slow.

Next week, I would like to see Freeman brought in on the right wing, May on the left. That gives us a fullback who is sensational under the high ball, a winger/full back with size and serious pace and a winger who is good under the high ball with serious pace (I would have said blistering, but I think May has lost a little bit). All three can kick returns very well.

SA are likely to play the bombardment game, we need players that are comfortable taking high balls under pressure. All of these three have the height and ability to do this.

The only worry with that back three would be kolbie and the other nippy small winger dancing around it. Will Jonny and freeman be able to catch hold of them when they start stepping? South Africa do pose alot of questions for teams. When they changed tactics against Italy and ran it they looked good.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 20 Nov 2022, 3:48 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Funny about Ribbans, he's had 2 caps and given us exactly what I thought he would at lock. Perhaps someone who watches Northampton could give more detail on what has suddenly made Jones give him his chance now though as to me he's in similar for as 2 to 3 years ago.
No idea what goes through the mind of Eddie Jones.  I can say that over the past few years Ribbans has gotten stronger and more nimble on his feet.  And like most Saints under Chris Boyd, his ball handling and offloading skills have improved, and we saw some of that in the buildup to one of the tries.      

He's been in squads before now and then I think there was some bad luck around the timing of injuries and suspensions for him ahead of games where Eddie might experiment. The rise of Hill certainly didn't help his cause either. Hill has done very little of note this Autumn though and Ribbans looked good.

I'm hoping for a Ribbans/Itoje combination for the Boks with Coles coming in at 6 as I'm sure Eddie will want some extra beef in the pack.

I don't see much point in replacing JVP, we'll learn more about him from this game Vs SA than any of his previous. His first bad game for England, hung out to dry by some awful forwards play, let's see if he comes back fighting or retreats into his shell. Youngs was very good off the bench so that remains a useful option.

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Post by Geordie Sun 20 Nov 2022, 4:39 pm

Do you go for a lock at 6 or Willis or Simmonds?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 20 Nov 2022, 5:32 pm

Geordie wrote:Do you go for a lock at 6 or Willis or Simmonds?

Vs SA I'd go for the extra size. Simmonds struggled yesterday. Coles ran good lines on his debut, might need some of that on the weekend against the big Bok pack.

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Post by Geordie Sun 20 Nov 2022, 5:48 pm

So call up Ted Hill? Wink Laugh

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Post by king_carlos Sun 20 Nov 2022, 10:46 pm

I was one of Ted Hill's biggest and earliest fan girls but his performances did taper away for a bit. If he can keep putting in big performances with Bath he'll get his chance. Few players have that sort of physicality in contact. Winning collisions is invaluable.

It's why Barbeary has so much potential. Being able to cross the gain line against strong defences when they are well set is a rare skill.

I'd go for Willis at 6 rather than playing the Boks at their own game. Were Lawes available I'd pick him as I think he's the better player but I still wouldn't be looking to play the Boks at their own game.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 21 Nov 2022, 12:23 am

Not sure if it matters if who we play, within the obvious limits, of course.  I think there is something wrong at the core of it all, and has been there for the last 2 years.  We believe - I believe, though it is getting more difficult - that we have the players to compete and have a chance to win the RWC.  But something isn't quite working.  And it is more than Eddie Jones having no clue what to do with Marcus Smith.

The scrum goes backwards against the ABs???  They are decent, true, but FFS not the Boks.  Based on this past performance the England front row is going to get blown away on Saturday.  And the rest of the team will go with them.  

For periods of time it seemed as if England were on the slow bus to the breakdown, getting there when the ball was getting out.  Took forever to adjust.  Steward was easily avoided and there was no real attacking threat from the back three.

It goes on-and-on until the last 10.  And I'm now convinced that the ABs did go into garbage time when down a man for the last 10 minutes of a long tour.  So the scoring explosion was nice, but doesn't change much outside of showing the talent - we think - is there.  The decision to not try for the win is more inexplicable this evening than when watching yesterday.  Can't believe that any player would willingly go for the draw. As I said, something wrong that is far more than potentially sitting or playing JvP or Simmonds or Hill or, or, or....                

Rant is over.  What thinkest thou?

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 21 Nov 2022, 2:02 am

More has come out about the decision to bank the draw. It seems like England decided to take the conversion quickly, and then make a decision based on how the restart went.

Ben Youngs, who is very onside with taking the draw, says they were conscious of how many penalties the referee was awarding. That's the same reason New Zealand kicked it back, instead of trying to run down the clock in those last two minutes. In fact, if time had been up when TJP had the ball in that position, you wonder whether he would have tried to play the All Blacks to a win, or just kicked it dead.

Youngs says the restart immediately sucked in a number of players, including Farrell, which meant they couldn't get to the edge straight away, and would have to take it straight towards Savea, and his jackal threat. Some England players looked like they wanted to keep playing. Vunipola and Slade on the pitch looked disappointed at the kick, while May later said the decision was above his pay grade, though he stood by it. Ultimately, with Farrell momentarily out of the game, it seems like Youngs would have been the one to give Smith the nod to clear for touch.

Isaac Boss made an interesting observation on "The Breakdown". While accepting there was a real risk of conceding a penalty, and giving away the game, he pointed out a moment like that might come up in the World Cup, and England had a free chance to see what they could conjure up. The match had no real stakes beyond World Ranking points, so losing the match would not have had disastrous consequences, while pulling off a win would have been a huge boost.


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Post by yappysnap Mon 21 Nov 2022, 3:09 am

Squidge rugby did say that those final 10 minutes may have been a glimpse of some of the rugby that we're hiding for the RWC. Tbh I don't believe it. But if it is i'm flipping furious that we don't get it every game!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 21 Nov 2022, 4:36 am

yappysnap wrote:Squidge rugby did say that those final 10 minutes may have been a glimpse of some of the rugby that we're hiding for the RWC. Tbh I don't believe it. But if it is i'm flipping furious that we don't get it every game!

If only......

Chasing a game and playing free flowing rugby is obviously what Smith is all about, we finally played to his strengths!

Changes for me.......

Youngs for JVP - We cannot start JVP again, especially against the Boks. If he's kept in the squad, he has to be on the bench.

Ribbans for Hill - I've always rated Ribbans for his physicality but didn't realise he had the these offloads in his game. He has to start and will be fired up to play SA. Hill, yet again....flatters to deceive.

Simmonds dropped from the squad - Not sure if I'd go with Coles or Willis as I'm not particularly convinced with either. Coles perhaps evens the lineout where Willis could be useful trying to counter the Boks physicality with his turnovers. Simmonds offers nothing for me.

Tuilagi for Slade - Disappointing showings so far from Manu who looks a shadow of his former self.

Nowell dropped from the squad - He's a passenger currently, he just looks so far from this level. Radwan or Freeman with the other from the bench (Prob Radwan).

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Nov 2022, 7:01 am

You'd keep Billy vunipola over Simmonds? He's been quite poor this AI and on Saturday was worse!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 21 Nov 2022, 7:50 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:You'd keep Billy vunipola over Simmonds? He's been quite poor this AI and on Saturday was worse!

Every day of the week,

Simmonds isn't physical enough for a Int 8, nowhere near.....an 8 shouldn't be getting stripped by a back......and he's off to France. I fail to see why he's part of the set-up tbh.

At least Billy offers a focal point and is a distraction for defenders, even if he isn't in the best form. Dombrandt has seemingly improved by not playing this AI...I wish we could see Barbeary at some point off the bench too.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Nov 2022, 8:04 am

I completely get that there are types of player we all prefer but would you say Vunipola was good vs NZ? So many stupid errors I wouldn't expect him to make. And he was knocking on in previous games, very unlike him.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 21 Nov 2022, 8:09 am

He's wasn't great, like most of the team. I think the pack in general was pretty poor tbh.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Nov 2022, 8:14 am

So why back him and not van Poortvliet?

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Post by mountain man Mon 21 Nov 2022, 8:43 am

Ribbans has to play for a couple of reasons, first one is he did well against NZ and deserves it. Secondly the extra incentive against home nation makes it more spicy. Itoje Ribbans 2nd row with Coles bench to cover 2nd row and flank.
Mako surely just isn't up to it in scrum even off bench.
Nowell. Nope
Manu unfortunately no.
JvP needs to play, even if from bench. Otherwise if things go wrong in a more crucial game in say 6N or WC he won't have confidence.
Plus he's better 9 anyway.
Billy I think be in just for his size against at 8 against SA. Does he justify place? Not really but who else is Jones going to pick.
Wings? Will Joe C be fit? Will Jones ever pick anyone else apart from May and Nowell?

All this before we get to the Smith Farrell axis...

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 21 Nov 2022, 9:26 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So why back him and not van Poortvliet?

Because JVP was terrible.....one of the worst scrum half performances I've seen at International level in a long time. I'd drop JVP, not only because he was abysmal, but also to take him out of the firing line. Do you think SA will go easy on him? They will target him him relentlessly after seeing him against NZ. He's a kid finding his feet, he doesn't need to take another hammering.......

As much as we don't rate Youngs, he has 100+ caps and will be able to deal with the occasion against SA.

If we drop Billy, we don't have anyone adequate to replace him.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Nov 2022, 10:10 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So why back him and not van Poortvliet?

Because JVP was terrible.....one of the worst scrum half performances I've seen at International level in a long time. I'd drop JVP, not only because he was abysmal, but also to take him out of the firing line. Do you think SA will go easy on him? They will target him him relentlessly after seeing him against NZ. He's a kid finding his feet, he doesn't need to take another hammering.......

As much as we don't rate Youngs, he has 100+ caps and will be able to deal with the occasion against SA.

If we drop Billy, we don't have anyone adequate to replace him.

Looking back...he threw an intercept pass, and then some ref errors. He's a better player than Youngs by a country mile. Vunipola made many more errors. And you can replace Vunipola with Simmonds or Dombrandt. Even move Curry there and bring in Coles at 6.

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Post by Geordie Mon 21 Nov 2022, 10:31 am

And what effect will dropping JVP completely have on him. I remember a young Matt Tait getting the same treatment and it did alot of damage.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Nov 2022, 10:36 am

If he'd come in and shown nothing I'd still be inclined to give him another shot. As it is he's already shown he's good enough.

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