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Its an over reaction!

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Geordie
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Post by Unclear Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:39 pm

England lost to Argentina - their chances at the World Cup are shattered (despite previous experience)....

Ireland beat South Africa - success at the World Cup is guaranteed (despite previous experience)...

Can we get some perspective on the weekend results? Or is perspective over-rated (as per the total perspective vortex ...)

I my view Argentina are a good side with coherent plan, whereas Eddie Jones is still d*cking about with his England squad.

Ireland played a decent game and dealt with the "physicality" of the Bok, but the Bok couldn't be bothered to show how they could attack if they really wanted.

Wales - might not have taken such a beating without the injuries, ABs starting to regain some confidence.

Scotland - wtf at 10 and so unclear what they want to do, Fiji need to get some discipline and a consistent set piece (what's new).

Any views?

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Post by mountain man Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:30 am

England on current showing, players selected by Jones and in which positions plus tactics strongly suggest to me England be lucky to get to semi final.

Ireland and France are settled teams with consistant selection plus they're playing well(France off slightly on Sat but will improve) with NZ looking to rediscovered their mojo and SA are well SA, then still unquestionably between those 4.

Arg decent side but really Eng lost rather than they won. Doubt they'd get to semi.

Wales not a hope, too many old and injured players plus Pivac seems to be in Jones mode of confused selections.

Scotland can cause upset on day but ultimately not good enough. Townsend joins Jones and Pivac in a bid for most disliked coach by own fans.

Fiji - just a joy to watch, won't trouble WC but boy they are an entertaining side.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:44 am

If viewed in isolation the England result is an overreaction but really it's a number of results and performances. The reemphasis that the focus is basically just the WC annoys me and a few others. If we go through the next 12 months or so with similar boring performances and then win the world cup I will not be thinking it's worth it.

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Post by mountain man Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:52 am

Hmmm dunno, if England continue to be pretty dire which quite frankly they were Sunday but somehow get through to RWC final and win then alls forgiven. Winning is what's it's about really, yes far better to play lovely rugby and win but much better to play ugly and win than play beautifully and lose.
Plus post RWC Jones be gone so new start anyway.

However, if England continue as are then they won't win so mute point.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:22 am

It would mean that I've gone through 3 plus years of games being bored with overall below par results. I don't think ignoring 95% of games is acceptable.

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Post by Geordie Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:41 am

No...winning a WC at the expense of pretty much 4 years of dire rugby with 5th place finishes in the 6n etc is not the answer for me either.

Go out to win each competition / series evolve the team gradually as you do that and the world cup will take care of itself.

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Post by mountain man Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:11 am

Yes but Jones has said all along RWC was the whole aim. Nothing else, so if England achieve winning that then he and the team will see it was goal achieved. It might not sit right with some but it's what he's set out to do.
I'm not defending him or his decision to take 6N etc lightly and do badly etc in games but if Eng win then he will have every right to say told you so and be justified in all decisions. I also think every game is important and winning 6N etc a crucial step to getting it right for RWC. I totally disagree with his philosophy of jam tomorrow.

However, as I said earlier if Eng continue as are then they won't win. Change is needed to selections, tactics and positional picking of players.

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Post by eirebilly_01 Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:53 pm

Unclear wrote:

Ireland beat South Africa  - success at  the World Cup is guaranteed (despite previous experience)...



Not sure how ye came to that assumption. As an Irishman, I do believe that are a very settled team. I would actually be happy to see Ireland get out of their group first and the actually win a quarter final thumbsup

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Post by Unclear Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:14 pm

eirebilly_01 wrote:
Unclear wrote:

Ireland beat South Africa  - success at  the World Cup is guaranteed (despite previous experience)...



Not sure how ye came to that assumption. As an Irishman, I do believe that are a very settled team. I would actually be happy to see Ireland get out of their group first and the actually win a quarter final thumbsup

Its not an assumption billy, more my view on how a successful Autumn series will be seen in the Irish media, and whether or not it is an over-reaction. We had settled team playing pretty well in 2015 and 2019, but you know the results. Do you think there is sufficient quality in depth to win a RWC quarter-final after the attrition of the group stages. Arguably 2015 was the best chance to progress but the injury toll was too great. Personally I think Farrell has done a pretty good job except at no. 10. I don't see a win against a big team in the RWC without Sexton starting. Farrell has persisted with Carberry, but I'm not convinced he is good enough and I can't see Frawley or Crowley getting sufficient experience unless Sexton is injured through the 6Ns. The back-ups at loosehead aren't great, but most other positions have some decent cover.

As for England, if the fans get their way and Jones is sacked (seems highly unlikely to me) do they end up like 2006/7? Disarray going into the RWC, but ending up in the final.

For Wales and Scotland I was going to be provocative and say that neither had any chance, but that seems to the prevailing view from their own supporters.


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Post by doctor_grey Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:20 pm

I actually think this RWC is more open than most. I could easily see any of Ireland, SA, Argentina, France, ABs taking the prize. England might too, but the last two years worth of performances say I should stop day-drinking. None of the real top teams are perfect or head-and-shoulders above their immediate competitors.

In addition, I would like to see Japan earn a playoff spot as well and I think they will. And hoping Italy can crack it too, but that might be a bridge too far.

To me, Scotland seem to me to be a fly-half away, Wales seem in need of a re-set (which will most likely come against England), and Australia need John Eales and George Smith v2.

I am actually hoping for a RWC final between France and Argentina....

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:33 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Australia need John Eales and George Smith v2.

The return of Bernard Foley at 10 is a huge boost for the Wallabies. He's exactly what they need to give them the game management and control they've been missing. There's quite a talented young squad with a few vets for Australia and that nous at 10 as opposed to a talented footballer gives them a bit of an edge. Still some improvements to be made if they want to be at the sharp end but it was a good performance Vs France and bar one delayed kick and controversial call from the ref could have notched up a win Vs the ABs.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:48 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Australia need John Eales and George Smith v2.

The return of Bernard Foley at 10 is a huge boost for the Wallabies. He's exactly what they need to give them the game management and control they've been missing. There's quite a talented young squad with a few vets for Australia and that nous at 10 as opposed to a talented footballer gives them a bit of an edge. Still some improvements to be made if they want to be at the sharp end but it was a good performance Vs France and bar one delayed kick and controversial call from the ref could have notched up a win Vs the ABs.
Agree completely Foley is a step up for Aus, but I don't think he will help with the issues at the breakdown and overall physicality. As long as he doesn't take too long to take a kick, the Wallabies are in better shape than without him. But I still don't see him bringing the Wallabies into the same grouping as the ABs, France, et al. Probably a hair below.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:22 am

p.s. Is Foley another one of those guys with a porn star mustache?

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Post by geoff999rugby Thu Nov 10, 2022 11:53 am

Unclear wrote:
eirebilly_01 wrote:
Unclear wrote:

Ireland beat South Africa  - success at  the World Cup is guaranteed (despite previous experience)...



Not sure how ye came to that assumption. As an Irishman, I do believe that are a very settled team. I would actually be happy to see Ireland get out of their group first and the actually win a quarter final thumbsup

Its not an assumption billy, more my view on how a successful Autumn series will be seen in the Irish media, and whether or not it is an over-reaction.  

I think is.
Irish fans do not think success is guaranteed and most of us think it is marginal.
Given the draw (best 4 teams in the same half) we will do very well to reach the SFs
My assessment is Irish fans think they have a chance but the reality is need a lot of luck regarding injuries at Prop and 10.
If anyone of Porter, Furlong and most of all Sexton get injured Ireland will struggle and have no hope of winning.

The first XV are grand but I still feel that a number of good players in the 2nd string are not being given a fair crack of the whip to bring them up to the standard required.
I also don't blame those players for the poor result on Friday I blame the selection

The way Timoney shows he is  the successor to deFlier is playing alongside Doris and POM
The way Coombes shows he is the successor to Doris is playing alongside deFlier and POM
The way Prendergast  shows he is the successor to POM is playing alongside deFlier and Doris

You dont throw them all in at once and except a top performance

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Post by geoff999rugby Thu Nov 10, 2022 12:00 pm

Eddie Jones cant turn the tap on and off and expect everything to click at the last minute.

The backline against Argentina looked like a disjointed dogs breakfast to me.

Decide between Smith and Farrell at 10 - Smith looked like a spare part on Saturday.
Manu should be 12 not 13. At this level his defence is not good enough for 13
Nowell is a very hard working winger but lacks the top line speed to be a real threat at World Cup level.
Joe is a power house of a player but a few worrying mistakes which again would be exposed

Also dont believe that 2nd row is good enough.

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