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S African teams can't compete financially with Irish due to no salary cap

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S African teams can't compete financially with Irish due to no salary cap - Page 2 Empty S African teams can't compete financially with Irish due to no salary cap

Post by RugbyFan100 Mon 14 Nov 2022, 11:40 am

First topic message reminder :

https://www.news24.com/sport/rugby/unitedrugbychampionship/nothing-we-could-do-no-irish-salary-cap-ultimately-contributed-to-kitshoff-ulster-move-20221112

Stormers coach has his say on the Kitshcoff deal with Ulster:

What it essentially means is different contracting rules for different sides competing in the same competition, which is something that Stormers coach John Dobson acknowledges might be teething problems of the South African move up north.

"Because of the cap in England, we can actually compete with those numbers. But when it comes to the Irish clubs or France or Japan, it just blows you out the water.

"There is no way we can compete with that kind of money, and that's quite sad. Kitsy will immerse himself there and will be superb for them, but it does sit a little bit in the gullet that we were just blown away financially by Irish rugby.

"I think the cap is a good thing because it means we have to be fiscally responsible and produce our own talent. We don't go buy Irish players because it's a very different model here and we try to produce our guys.


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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 16 Nov 2022, 10:54 am

Again, the €54,219,837 is going oin players and coaches. A Huge sum.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 16 Nov 2022, 11:07 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:Again, the €54,219,837 is going oin players and coaches. A Huge sum.
Ok but don't come out with silly statements like that when it's well known how little academy players get. I wonder how much of that is for the 7s and now the women's game. Not a whole pile I would guess.

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Post by geoff999rugby Wed 16 Nov 2022, 11:25 am

Again the nonsense about the salary level in Ireland.

The reality is the salary levels for the Provinces are about €6 million to which should be added Central Contracts
Makes Munster and Ulster equatable to the English and Leinster equatable with the French.

Not least that passes the smell test in so far as the level of performance over the years.
Unless the belief is the Irish have the worst coaches in the world as their salary levels mean they should be winning everything.


Piatau for example left Ulster because Bristol paid him a salary Ulster would not and still have never paid to a player.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 16 Nov 2022, 12:15 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Again, the €54,219,837 is going oin players and coaches. A Huge sum.
Ok but don't come out with silly statements like that when it's well known how little academy players get. I wonder how much of that is for the 7s and now the women's game. Not a whole pile I would guess.

The 7s, womens and high performance unit and academies are on top of that €54,219,837. And they cost another €14,113,653 to be precise.

There is nothing silly about stating Leinsters squad costs so much because they have a deep squad of highly paid, highly talented players.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 16 Nov 2022, 12:42 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Again, the €54,219,837 is going oin players and coaches. A Huge sum.
Ok but don't come out with silly statements like that when it's well known how little academy players get. I wonder how much of that is for the 7s and now the women's game. Not a whole pile I would guess.

The 7s, womens and high performance unit and academies are on top of that €54,219,837. And they cost another €14,113,653 to be precise.

There is nothing silly about stating Leinsters squad costs so much because they have a deep squad of highly paid, highly talented players.
14 million is more than I thought, not that I really pay much attention.
The starting squad is highly paid, the depth of the squad is due to the ability to produce players through the academy.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Nov 2022, 1:45 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:To be clear the 443,00 is Kitshoff's salary at Ulster not the salary Stormers were prepared to pay.
The article is so slanted it is little more than a deliberate distorted lie.

Next year he will be one of only two non Irish players in the squad (possible thirds player on a low wage as a TH squad filler)
Two foreign players is well below the vast majority of NH teams.

As others have said lazy journalism - Ulster were not prepared to match Coetzee's offer from a South African side.
For that player the South African side outbid the Irish one.
Teams make priorities and decide where they want to prioritise their cash.

There is no real difference between Ulster and Munster total salary packages than the top of the Premiership.
Connacht are nearer the bottom of Premiership salary levels

Only Leinster compete with the majority of Top 14 sides and that is in large part the very high number of Central Contracts.
As we all know there is no formal Salary cap in Ireland.
Irish salaries are determined by what is affordable on a Province by Province basis rather than an imposed cap.
If the Premiership teams spent what is economically affordable them maybe teams would not be going to the wall.

£443,000?

More like £643,000
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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Nov 2022, 1:45 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Again, the €54,219,837 is going oin players and coaches. A Huge sum.
Ok but don't come out with silly statements like that when it's well known how little academy players get. I wonder how much of that is for the 7s and now the women's game. Not a whole pile I would guess.

None of that is for the 7s or women's game

That is the figure stated in the IRFU Annual Report

So what's the silly statement?
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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Nov 2022, 1:52 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Again the nonsense about the salary level in Ireland.

The reality is the salary levels for the Provinces are about €6 million to which should be added Central Contracts
Makes Munster and Ulster equatable to the English and Leinster equatable with the French.

Not least that passes the smell test in so far as the level of performance over the years.
Unless the belief is the Irish have the worst coaches in the world as their salary levels mean they should be winning everything.  


Piatau for example left Ulster because Bristol paid him a salary Ulster would not and still have never paid to a player.

So if that's €24m in total, where does the other €30m go?

In the 2003-04 IRFU Annual Report, it noted that €12m was being spent on player salaries (that's on Page 17, if you want a reference), so the idea that salaries have only doubled since then doesn't hold any water (especially alongside the €30m hole your analysis has)

In 2012, Ruaidhri O'Connor reported Luke Fitzgerald was on €280,000 a year

Your smell test is €30m light. Read the IRFU Annual Report.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Nov 2022, 2:09 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Again the nonsense about the salary level in Ireland.

The reality is the salary levels for the Provinces are about €6 million to which should be added Central Contracts
Makes Munster and Ulster equatable to the English and Leinster equatable with the French.

Not least that passes the smell test in so far as the level of performance over the years.
Unless the belief is the Irish have the worst coaches in the world as their salary levels mean they should be winning everything.  


Piatau for example left Ulster because Bristol paid him a salary Ulster would not and still have never paid to a player.

To underline that the claim of €6m is detached from reality, the IRFU noted the cost of operating a Heineken Cup squad was in excess of €5m. It did this in its 2006/07 Annual Report. (that's on Page 11, if you want to check)

So your claim is reliant on there being little to no wage inflation in the last 16 years which is quite obviously a stretch......

In 2006/07, the IRFU noted it spent €22m on Player & Management costs which, funnily enough, is about 4 times the cost of a Heineken Cup squad (with less for Connacht, obviously) plus some coaches.

So your claim is that salaries are pretty much as they were 16 years ago and that the IRFU's spend of over €50m on "Player and Management costs" is made up of €24m on players, something on coaches and the rest from the best 10 (or so) paid players in Ireland. For your point to have any credibility, you're actually claiming the "central contracts" (complete misnomer) would be worth well over €1m EACH.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 16 Nov 2022, 3:02 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Again, the €54,219,837 is going oin players and coaches. A Huge sum.
Ok but don't come out with silly statements like that when it's well known how little academy players get. I wonder how much of that is for the 7s and now the women's game. Not a whole pile I would guess.

None of that is for the 7s or women's game

That is the figure stated in the IRFU Annual Report

So what's the silly statement?
Try reading the whole conversation for once... I was asking about the 7s and women's. I've said numerous times on this forum that Leinster are one of the highest spending teams in world rugby (including on the previous page of this thread), I don't know what more you want.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Nov 2022, 3:08 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Try reading the whole conversation for once... I was asking about the 7s and women's. I've said numerous times on this forum that Leinster are one of the highest spending teams in world rugby (including on the previous page of this thread), I don't know what more you want.

Fair enough - apologies, I misread.
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Post by MichaelT Wed 16 Nov 2022, 3:21 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:"50-60 players on good money" don't be rediculous now, academy lads are on as low as 3k a year. Most players coming out of the academy would be on very low salaries.

Is this 3,000 euro per year? For a Leinster player? Academy or not that sounds awfully low. If that is right, how many players are on this amount?

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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Nov 2022, 3:23 pm

MichaelT wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:"50-60 players on good money" don't be rediculous now, academy lads are on as low as 3k a year. Most players coming out of the academy would be on very low salaries.

Is this 3,000 euro per year? For a Leinster player? Academy or not that sounds awfully low. If that is right, how many players are on this amount?

Just to fact check the accuracy on that €3k claim, in 2016 the Academy contracts were increased to €8k a year

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/irupa-chief-welcomes-academy-players-pay-increase-1.2582187
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 16 Nov 2022, 6:16 pm

MichaelT wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:"50-60 players on good money" don't be rediculous now, academy lads are on as low as 3k a year. Most players coming out of the academy would be on very low salaries.

Is this 3,000 euro per year? For a Leinster player? Academy or not that sounds awfully low. If that is right, how many players are on this amount?
looks like it's 8k now thanks to Phil. You have to remember they are getting scholarships to colleges, free accommodation, access to gyms, free food etc.

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 17 Nov 2022, 9:15 pm

The €54m under Player and Management costs in IRFU Annual Report is not just the total cost of 184 senior squad players and management salaries in the provinces for the financial year 2021/22; it covers more than that -  the Ireland test management team (15 people), insurances, and performance bonuses for test squad.  In addition, as the Report states, it also includes payment through of €20.37m of Competition Income, made up €10m from URC/APCR comps and a further tranche of CVC investment monies in URC - €10.37m.  

Correction: Annual Reports set out clearly what is included in P&M costs; they reduced from €65.3m in the previous year of 2020/21 - a drop of €11.1 in P&M costs.

"Professional game costs in Schedule 3 includes all of the operational, logistical and preparation costs for the matches of the National team. The most significant costs in this schedule are the player and management costs which include the costs of the National management and player fees and bonuses together with the Union’s contribution to the cost of the four Provincial teams."


Last edited by Pot Hale on Sat 19 Nov 2022, 8:37 am; edited 3 times in total
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Nov 2022, 7:55 am

Pot Hale wrote:The €54m under Player and Management costs in IRFU Annual Report is not just the total cost of 184 senior squad players and management salaries in the provinces for the financial year 2021/22; it covers more than that -  the Ireland test management team (15 people), insurances, and performance bonuses for test squad.  In addition, as the Report states, it also includes payment through of €20.37m of Competition Income, made up €10m from URC/APCR comps and a further tranche of CVC investment monies in URC - €10.37m.  

The Annual Report sets out clearly what is included in P&M costs, which reduced from €60m in the previous year of 2020/21.

In reality, here are the ACTUAL words:

"Professional Game Costs fell from €68.1m to €60.5m year on year. In addition to tours, camps and matches, all player and coaching costs together with funding for the four Provincial teams are included here. Last year’s figure included special once off grants of €14m which were part of the Branch bailout package. In addition, amounts received from CVC in respect of their investment in URC were also reflected in the figures for both years. As a result of crowd restrictions for part of the year, it was agreed that the Union would only recommence normal invoicing for recharges and grants for part of the year resulting in a significant net additional cost for the Union as reflected in player and coaching costs. Tours, camps and squads increased significantly with the inclusion of the very successful tour to New Zealand, whilst match costs increased in line with fans returning to the stadium."

So Pot may be misleading you all here......Pot's words are "The €54m under Player and Management costs in IRFU Annual Report is not just the total cost of 184 senior squad players and management salaries in the provinces for the financial year 2021/22; it covers more than that -  the Ireland test management team (15 people), insurances, and performance bonuses for test squad"

In fact, the below is true:

National tours, camps and squads = 2,887,088
National match costs = 3,425,288

Those costs are in addition to the €54m Pot mentions above. Hmmmm, right?

To add further context, the figure of €2.887m is up from €290k the previous year
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Post by PhilBB Fri 18 Nov 2022, 8:02 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Again the nonsense about the salary level in Ireland.

The reality is the salary levels for the Provinces are about €6 million to which should be added Central Contracts
Makes Munster and Ulster equatable to the English and Leinster equatable with the French.

Not least that passes the smell test in so far as the level of performance over the years.
Unless the belief is the Irish have the worst coaches in the world as their salary levels mean they should be winning everything.  


Piatau for example left Ulster because Bristol paid him a salary Ulster would not and still have never paid to a player.

You standing by this, Geoff?
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Post by doctor_grey Sat 19 Nov 2022, 12:35 pm

I think the one of the major institutional threats to the URC is the different salary compensation levels and structures in each country:  Given, the purpose of the salary cap is to ensure, as best as possible, a level financial playing field for each team when competing for and signing players, with a cap in place it is down to the skills in the front offices, the coaching rooms and so on the make the differences.  

Certainly understand how difficult it is to cobble together teams from different countries, three different currencies, and different organisational structures.  But, to me, finding a way to level the field a bit can go a long way to help ensure the long term financial heath of the league and its teams.  And make it transparent. Otherwise it could be a real problem.  

On the other hand, I think the URC as currently configured is potentially the most interesting league in Rugby (and most sport) at the moment.  I like the differences and the marketing potential in the league now.  If marketed properly (not a Rugby strong point) the league the league could do great.

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Post by neilthom7 Sat 19 Nov 2022, 2:13 pm

I don't know if a salary cap would ensure the financial health of the league, that would be more down to how the league is marketed, how much money is retained within the league and not distributed to clubs etc

As for financial health of clubs, maybe, maybe it would help ensure clubs financial health however it's certainly no guarantee otherwise Wasps and Worcester would be playing this weekend.

And all of that is based on the cap being something which clubs can even reach, if you set the French salary cap in the URC for example that wouldn't help any team financially as very few of them would even reach those spending levels.

Obviously the difference between URC and other leagues is that it spans 2 continents, 5 countries and 3 currencies, that makes it so much more difficult to set a cap and enforce as the cap would either be constantly shifting as currencies change or it would be set in each currency in which case a change in currency could destroy clubs using that currency.

That's without considering the cost of living in each country, this is a problem within countries too but much less so than between countries meaning a salary cap in one country may buy you a lot more player than in another.

Some countries have their own rules too about buying players such as Ireland's cap on non Irish players although you could argue that's something that country has a problem with and not a league issue but then you could argue so is the financial or ownership aspects.

One of the biggest issues is where do you set the cap, I see a lot of get a cap requests but as of yet no one has actually produced a plan of what that would be or how it would work.

Lets say you set a cap and everyone actually stays inside the cap which given the history with England's cap or in Fromula 1 isn't guaranteed where do you set it?

To ensure actual fairness for everyone you need to set it at the lowest spending level otherwise it's pointless.

I believe the current South Africa cap works out to be less than £3.5million although I'm sure Old Man could help with actual figures there.

Given the English and French figures are considerably higher than that and Welsh, Scotish and Irish teams probably all easily exceed that what would that do to the league? I would suggest that would in fact destroy the league as the top players even in country wouldn't be affordable. Once those players leave that then turns the league into a b rate league which affects sponsorships/marketing/tv etc and there begins self perpetuating cycle towards destruction.

Then there is the argument of if the financial really matters that highly and as such the Welsh, Scottish and Italians have no chance because Leinster and/or Ireland spends so high then how do we explain South Africa? They won it last year, had both teams in the final and this season again have 3 teams in the top 8 even though their teams have played 1 or even 2 games less than some teams and they have been missing their South African internationals for first few weeks.

Having said all of that I'm not against a salary cap I just at this moment don't see how it could be done effectively and haven't heard any theories on how it could be done effectively.

What we definitely do need is more financial transparency in terms of both the league itself and the clubs so we can see better where clubs/league are at in terms of financial health and at least where fans could see how healthy their clubs are and teams would maybe be more considerate of how their financials look and work to improve them.

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Post by Old Man Sat 19 Nov 2022, 3:37 pm

I am not in favour of a Salary Cap at all.

I don't brlieve it is fair to limit individual countries based on the affordability of other nations.

Each country develops their rugby system in their own way, if one country favours putting more moneyinto grass roots development vs another country favouring a top down approach it should be up to each individual union.

The collective benefits from the tournament itself as well as the revenue it produces.

The same applies to unions who favour less teams participating than others.


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Post by Brendan Sat 19 Nov 2022, 4:31 pm

Maybe the Annual Report specialists can explain the figures to me but how does the IRFU figure a compare to WRU or NZRU who have similar income. Does the WRU have a similar catogry to professional players in its annual report and if so what is it.

If you believe Ireland are spending half their income just on the money they are handing over to players they are away with the fairs.

Employer PRSI would be about 10% extra of what they are paying players.

All people can get the same ILH (use to be Avia) for the same cost as the IRFU, plans would probably be about 2k per person plus all the extra medical bills not covered by plan.

I would assume like most employers the IRFU must have a pension plan that matches what the players are putting in. If it is like the government are they paying ex players fees.

Education - as far as I know university is part of being in the academy, are these fees paid by the player or the union.

Even in SA while all 4 URC teams have the same cap as each other it is clear that Sharks are using loopholes to spend above it. If they are under the £3.5m cap then Sarries need to higher their cap manager right away as they could have that Sharks squad and still have the marquee players and £1.5m left over.

We all accept the Irish teams are part of the group of teams that are best funded. Part of this group was Scarlets which rarely get talked about. Going off Cardiff's squad they must be pushing up there.

Do we know what the not wages 80% funding for certain Welsh players costs the WRU. That would give us a good idea of what Leinster are paying as simillar standard of squad.

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Post by Brendan Sat 19 Nov 2022, 4:47 pm

Reasons a cap won't work

1. The SARU can't enforce the one they have what makes you think the URC would have better control over third party payments
2. What is included in the cap. Are A/emerging squad fees included in the cap. Are national camp fees included in the cap. Are test fees limited to per game or can unions pay them a year fee rather than per event to make it easier.
3. Add-ons - do extras count at face value or given credits. University costs vary massively between countries. Do players, getting a fee for playing SA A or Chile for their club count. What if it's the Men in Red and not Munster playing in a non rugby stadium and the fee comes from the gate takings.
3. A teams - nearly all the teams have players who don't play URC but play A/T2 games but are given a fee as part of the wider squad, does that count
4. Big Mac index - biggest of all the cost of living varies much more than England or France so is each countries cap a multiple of the living wage or is it a flat fee.
5. Benetton players are part of the Benetton group. If they do 10 office hours per week can they get discount on their wage

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Post by PhilBB Sun 20 Nov 2022, 9:30 am

Brendan wrote:Reasons a cap won't work

1. The SARU can't enforce the one they have what makes you think the URC would have better control over third party payments
2. What is included in the cap.  Are A/emerging squad fees included in the cap.  Are national camp fees included in the cap.  Are test fees limited to per game or can unions pay them a year fee rather than per event to make it easier.
3. Add-ons - do extras count at face value or given credits.  University costs vary massively between countries.  Do players, getting a fee for playing SA A or Chile for their club count.  What if it's the Men in Red and not Munster playing in a non rugby stadium and the fee comes from the gate takings.
3. A teams - nearly all the teams have players who don't play URC but play A/T2 games but are given a fee as part of the wider squad, does that count
4. Big Mac index - biggest of all the cost of living varies much more than England or France so is each countries cap a multiple of the living wage or is it a flat fee.
5. Benetton players are part of the Benetton group.  If they do 10 office hours per week can they get discount on their wage

By the way, each national union who plays in the URC is in favour of a salary cap other than......the IRFU.
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Post by PhilBB Sun 20 Nov 2022, 9:31 am

neilthom7 wrote:
I believe the current South Africa cap works out to be less than £3.5million

The Oakwell Report for Welsh rugby noted that, with currency and cost of living calculations, the SA cap was worth about £7.5m.

Welsh rugby is aiming for something similar to the English cap, which would be something similar.
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Post by PhilBB Sun 20 Nov 2022, 9:36 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Again the nonsense about the salary level in Ireland.

The reality is the salary levels for the Provinces are about €6 million to which should be added Central Contracts
Makes Munster and Ulster equatable to the English and Leinster equatable with the French.

Not least that passes the smell test in so far as the level of performance over the years.
Unless the belief is the Irish have the worst coaches in the world as their salary levels mean they should be winning everything.  


Piatau for example left Ulster because Bristol paid him a salary Ulster would not and still have never paid to a player.

Wednesday, December 7th, 2011: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/connacht-to-meet-irfu-over-financial-plight-1.8662

"Connacht sources stated the €3 million for player salaries was 40 per cent of the European champion’s budget but Leinster chief executive Mick Dawson stated the figure of €7.5 million was some way over the actual amount they pay in player wages"

So, for you to be right, there would be no wage inflation in the last 11 years. For the record, the IRFU spend on "Player and Management Costs":

2011/12 = €34,454,297
2021/22 = €54,219,837

What's your view now, Geoff, on the "nonsense about the salary level in Ireland"? Sticking with "The reality is the salary levels for the Provinces are about €6 million"?
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Post by Old Man Sun 20 Nov 2022, 7:05 pm

PhilBB wrote:
neilthom7 wrote:
I believe the current South Africa cap works out to be less than £3.5million

The Oakwell Report for Welsh rugby noted that, with currency and cost of living calculations, the SA cap was worth about £7.5m.

Welsh rugby is aiming for something similar to the English cap, which would be something similar.

That might equate to comparative affordability for the Unions.

However explain to a South African player who can convert £500 000 of savings over a three years period into R10 million back in SA.

Lets compare property prices, this is what R10 000 000 can buy you in SA.

Properties Gauteng

You need to put a minimum and maximum value in on the search tool
What can you buy in a golf estate in the UK for £500 000?

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Post by PhilBB Sun 20 Nov 2022, 8:36 pm

Old Man wrote:

That might equate to comparative affordability for the Unions.


My mistake, it was £7.2m "Adjusted for cost of living"

Page 47, for reference
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Post by RugbyFan100 Mon 21 Nov 2022, 9:42 am

neilthom7 wrote:

What we definitely do need is more financial transparency in terms of both the league itself and the clubs so we can see better where clubs/league are at in terms of financial health and at least where fans could see how healthy their clubs are and teams would maybe be more considerate of how their financials look and work to improve them.

The accounts of all limited companies are published in the public domain. So all Welsh and English clubs.

It's only the Irish and Scottish clubs that are swallowed up in the 'professional game costs' banner of their Unions.

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Post by PhilBB Mon 21 Nov 2022, 11:15 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
neilthom7 wrote:

What we definitely do need is more financial transparency in terms of both the league itself and the clubs so we can see better where clubs/league are at in terms of financial health and at least where fans could see how healthy their clubs are and teams would maybe be more considerate of how their financials look and work to improve them.

The accounts of all limited companies are published in the public domain. So all Welsh and English clubs.

It's only the Irish and Scottish clubs that are swallowed up in the 'professional game costs' banner of their Unions.

And the French salary cap is reducing to £8.4m, so clearly Leinster will blow that out of the water.
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Post by RugbyFan100 Mon 21 Nov 2022, 11:54 am

PhilBB wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
neilthom7 wrote:

What we definitely do need is more financial transparency in terms of both the league itself and the clubs so we can see better where clubs/league are at in terms of financial health and at least where fans could see how healthy their clubs are and teams would maybe be more considerate of how their financials look and work to improve them.

The accounts of all limited companies are published in the public domain. So all Welsh and English clubs.

It's only the Irish and Scottish clubs that are swallowed up in the 'professional game costs' banner of their Unions.

And the French salary cap is reducing to £8.4m, so clearly Leinster will blow that out of the water.

I don't see how the French can possibly bother with The Heineken Cup anymore. Or the English. Nobody but the Irish and maybe S Africans have a squad capable of fighting on 2 fronts.

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Post by Kingshu Mon 21 Nov 2022, 11:54 am

PhilBB you calling Geoff out twice appears to be antagonist.

Just wondering since you've shot down all estimates what the provinces actual player salaries are, what do you think the player salary of each province is?
Also what is it for each team in the URC?

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Post by PhilBB Mon 21 Nov 2022, 1:56 pm

Kingshu wrote:PhilBB you calling Geoff out twice appears to be antagonist.

Just wondering since you've shot down all estimates what the provinces actual player salaries are, what do you think the player salary of each province is?
Also what is it for each team in the URC?

He called out others for what he claimed as 'nonsense'. I've done nothing any more 'antagonistic' than that.

Oakwell suggested the spread of salary spends in Ireland is £5m to £10.5m, £7.5m x 3 in Wales with the Dragons on £6m, Scottish teams on £7.5m and £7m with the Italians rather unknown.

I think they've got that a little undercooked in both Ireland and Scotland.

That's just salary spends, of course, for players. All of the other costs are unequally shared by the playing teams (e.g. academy costs, Community Foundations, age grade rugby) so that's a difficult comparison to make.
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Post by PhilBB Mon 21 Nov 2022, 1:57 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
neilthom7 wrote:

What we definitely do need is more financial transparency in terms of both the league itself and the clubs so we can see better where clubs/league are at in terms of financial health and at least where fans could see how healthy their clubs are and teams would maybe be more considerate of how their financials look and work to improve them.

The accounts of all limited companies are published in the public domain. So all Welsh and English clubs.

It's only the Irish and Scottish clubs that are swallowed up in the 'professional game costs' banner of their Unions.

And the French salary cap is reducing to £8.4m, so clearly Leinster will blow that out of the water.

I don't see how the French can possibly bother with The Heineken Cup anymore. Or the English. Nobody but the Irish and maybe S Africans have a squad capable of fighting on 2 fronts.

Well the aim across Europe is to bring salary spends closer in line with each other so that Europe becomes competitive again. Of course, all of the unions and clubs bar one are in favour of this.
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Post by PhilBB Mon 21 Nov 2022, 1:58 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Kingshu wrote:PhilBB you calling Geoff out twice appears to be antagonist.

Just wondering since you've shot down all estimates what the provinces actual player salaries are, what do you think the player salary of each province is?
Also what is it for each team in the URC?

He called out others for what he claimed as 'nonsense'. I've done nothing any more 'antagonistic' than that.

Oakwell suggested the spread of salary spends in Ireland is £5m to £10.5m, £7.5m x 3 in Wales with the Dragons on £6m, Scottish teams on £7.5m and £7m with the Italians rather unknown.

I think they've got that a little undercooked in both Ireland and Scotland.

That's just salary spends, of course, for players. All of the other costs are unequally shared by the playing teams (e.g. academy costs, Community Foundations, age grade rugby) so that's a difficult comparison to make.

p.s. thinking about it, Oakwell didn't include the 15 "National Contracts" in their squad spend analysis. And neither did they add in injury jokers or credits for France or England, nor did they refer to the DNACG report.

So, as ever, the Oakwell report is on shaky grounds when it comes to accuracy.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Nov 2022, 4:08 pm

PhilBB wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
neilthom7 wrote:

What we definitely do need is more financial transparency in terms of both the league itself and the clubs so we can see better where clubs/league are at in terms of financial health and at least where fans could see how healthy their clubs are and teams would maybe be more considerate of how their financials look and work to improve them.

The accounts of all limited companies are published in the public domain. So all Welsh and English clubs.

It's only the Irish and Scottish clubs that are swallowed up in the 'professional game costs' banner of their Unions.

And the French salary cap is reducing to £8.4m, so clearly Leinster will blow that out of the water.

I don't see how the French can possibly bother with The Heineken Cup anymore. Or the English. Nobody but the Irish and maybe S Africans have a squad capable of fighting on 2 fronts.

Well the aim across Europe is to bring salary spends closer in line with each other so that Europe becomes competitive again. Of course, all of the unions and clubs bar one are in favour of this.

Kinda. But whereas there's a few who would like to move it towards the lower end there are still clubs who want to push it up. Not exactly 100 per cent agreement!

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Post by Pot Hale Mon 21 Nov 2022, 5:58 pm

Ulster Rugby have published their annual report for 2021/22.



Last edited by Pot Hale on Tue 22 Nov 2022, 5:43 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Post by Brendan Mon 21 Nov 2022, 9:57 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Kingshu wrote:PhilBB you calling Geoff out twice appears to be antagonist.

Just wondering since you've shot down all estimates what the provinces actual player salaries are, what do you think the player salary of each province is?
Also what is it for each team in the URC?

He called out others for what he claimed as 'nonsense'. I've done nothing any more 'antagonistic' than that.

Oakwell suggested the spread of salary spends in Ireland is £5m to £10.5m, £7.5m x 3 in Wales with the Dragons on £6m, Scottish teams on £7.5m and £7m with the Italians rather unknown.

I think they've got that a little undercooked in both Ireland and Scotland.

That's just salary spends, of course, for players. All of the other costs are unequally shared by the playing teams (e.g. academy costs, Community Foundations, age grade rugby) so that's a difficult comparison to make.

So report that backs up everything you say is right except when it doesn't back up what you say and then it's wrong. SRU had about 50% profit last year earning about 2/3 of WRU so how do the SRU run to teams, Super 6, national sides, pay more than the Welsh and yet still have loads left.

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Post by Kingshu Mon 21 Nov 2022, 10:18 pm

PhilBB wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Kingshu wrote:PhilBB you calling Geoff out twice appears to be antagonist.

Just wondering since you've shot down all estimates what the provinces actual player salaries are, what do you think the player salary of each province is?
Also what is it for each team in the URC?

He called out others for what he claimed as 'nonsense'. I've done nothing any more 'antagonistic' than that.

Oakwell suggested the spread of salary spends in Ireland is £5m to £10.5m, £7.5m x 3 in Wales with the Dragons on £6m, Scottish teams on £7.5m and £7m with the Italians rather unknown.

I think they've got that a little undercooked in both Ireland and Scotland.

That's just salary spends, of course, for players. All of the other costs are unequally shared by the playing teams (e.g. academy costs, Community Foundations, age grade rugby) so that's a difficult comparison to make.

p.s. thinking about it, Oakwell didn't include the 15 "National Contracts" in their squad spend analysis. And neither did they add in injury jokers or credits for France or England, nor did they refer to the DNACG report.

So, as ever, the Oakwell report is on shaky grounds when it comes to accuracy.

Seams like your saying these are the figures but they aren't correct.

So is it the numbers you quoted? If not what is it then?

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Post by RiscaGame Mon 21 Nov 2022, 10:25 pm

How many teams got a covid loan and how many got a grant?

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Post by PhilBB Tue 22 Nov 2022, 8:01 am

Brendan wrote:

So report that backs up everything you say is right except when it doesn't back up what you say and then it's wrong.  SRU had about 50% profit last year earning about 2/3 of WRU so how do the SRU run to teams, Super 6, national sides, pay more than the Welsh and yet still have loads left.

Sorry, none of that makes sense.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 22 Nov 2022, 8:03 am

Kingshu wrote:

Seams like your saying these are the figures but they aren't correct.

So is it the numbers you quoted? If not what is it then?

I gave you the view of independent consultants as a benchmark. I thought that was obvious but it seems that I was wrong.

I've already told you that I think the Oakwell numbers are short.
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Post by PhilBB Tue 22 Nov 2022, 8:03 am

RiscaGame wrote:How many teams got a covid loan and how many got a grant?

4
6
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Post by PhilBB Tue 22 Nov 2022, 8:03 am

Pot Hale wrote:Ulster Rugby have published their annual report for 2021/22.

£4.17m on Player/team management/medical costs.  Down from last year with IRFU picking up the tab on their recharge for six months of the year before they started re-charging.  They owed IRFU £2.5m at year end.

S African teams can't compete financially with Irish due to no salary cap - Page 2 Screen19

This being the recharge figure, right?
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Post by Pot Hale Tue 22 Nov 2022, 1:33 pm

An illustration of where the IRFU spends its monies under its Player & Management costs and its investment into academy structures in 2015 following decision to cut funding of capped foreign players.

"Nucifora says an investment in youth “six or seven years ago” has been essential to Ireland’s rise, where the Irish Rugby Football Union introduced the National Talent Squad to “develop players faster”.

The program has no more than 88 positions available, with roughly 22 per province, and lasts for no more than three years.

This year, however, there are just 60 players in the academy, which targets kids from the age of 16.
While the centralisation model was loosely in place before Nucifora arrived, the nation needed someone to drive it to understand the benefits out of it.

“We contract more than just the players,” Nucifora said. “We contract the four CEOs (at) the provinces, we contract the head coaches in the provinces, we contract the head of athletic performance in provinces, the physios, head physios, so all the key head of strength and conditioning.”

https://www.theroar.com.au/2022/11/18/exclusive-i-had-my-go-the-ex-wallaby-who-drove-ireland-to-no-1-and-why-hes-rejected-an-sos-from-ra/
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Post by TJ Tue 22 Nov 2022, 1:39 pm

Oakwell suggested the spread of salary spends in Ireland is £5m to £10.5m, £7.5m x 3 in Wales with the Dragons on £6m, Scottish teams on £7.5m and £7m with the Italians rather unknown.

sounds pretty much right from loads of analysis over the years. this is the spend on players for the URC teams

Phillbb wants to show that the welsh teams are under resourced to allow for the poor playing standards and thus can play the victim. He bangs on about this all the time without a shred of evidence


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Post by TJ Tue 22 Nov 2022, 1:40 pm

PhilBB wrote:
I've already told you that I think the Oakwell numbers are short.

So whats your evidence for this?

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue 22 Nov 2022, 1:45 pm

TJ wrote:

Phillbb wants to show that the welsh teams are under resourced to allow for the poor playing standards and thus can play the victim.  He bangs on about this all the time without a shred of evidence


Do you think the 4 Welsh teams and their coaches are resourced to the same level as the teams at the top of the URC?

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 22 Nov 2022, 2:06 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:

Phillbb wants to show that the welsh teams are under resourced to allow for the poor playing standards and thus can play the victim.  He bangs on about this all the time without a shred of evidence


Do you think the 4 Welsh teams and their coaches are resourced to the same level as the teams at the top of the URC?

I doubt very much that they are - there is little or no money in Welsh regional rugby - very poor gates, sponsors, tv monies, overpaid players, little or no regional academies, poor coaches, poor management, poor structures, no real identities, little fan engagement, massive bank loans, spiralling debts - it's a basket case at this point.
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Post by LordDowlais Tue 22 Nov 2022, 2:46 pm

TJ wrote:Phillbb wants to show that the welsh teams are under resourced to allow for the poor playing standards and thus can play the victim. He bangs on about this all the time without a shred of evidence

This in a nutshell. Whilst I agree with the plight of some of our regional fans, and what they are asking for, the thing is, they would rather blame everything else around them rather than look at what the regions could do better.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue 22 Nov 2022, 2:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
TJ wrote:Phillbb wants to show that the welsh teams are under resourced to allow for the poor playing standards and thus can play the victim. He bangs on about this all the time without a shred of evidence

This in a nutshell. Whilst I agree with the plight of some of our regional fans, and what they are asking for, the thing is, they would rather blame everything else around them rather than look at what the regions could do better.

What could the regions do better, that would make them win the URC / Heineken Cup?

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