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England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 24 Nov 2022, 5:37 am

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 05 Jan 2023, 9:23 am

I really don't think it will be the same.....perhaps more like when EJ first took over.

The links I saw were very tedious, I didn't see anything suggesting the RFU spoke to him.....just column fillers suggesting he may be in the frame.

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Post by Geordie Thu 05 Jan 2023, 9:29 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm, I'm lamenting the style he had at Leicester definitely. I did expect him to develop that once he had the basics but it never came. As with Jones style of play over the last 3 years people were fine overall in 2020 (and there were other things happening then too!) when the results don't come (if they don't) you see how things come unstuck quickly as there is nothing else to back it up. A few people are saying it's results that count, ok but that puts you under a tonne of pressure if the ball bounces wrong. I'm not one for calling for peoples heads on the whole; I'd have kept Johnson and Lancaster on longer. But I do feel Borthwick's England has to offer good entertainment and wins; and that's where I feel Robertson was better placed for where we are now. Borthwick really needs that attack coach in place ASAP, or at the very least demonstrate he knows where Jones went wrong.

He has one. Gleeson had wasps playing a good brand of rugby didnt he? How much influence did he have in the England attacking plan under Jones? Maybe we'll have an idea come the 6n.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 05 Jan 2023, 9:31 am

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-11448189/England-hold-talks-Scott-Robinson-succeeding-Eddie-Jones-2023-World-Cup.htmlthe RF
Dull or not, they were there.

On slightly related news the Sydney Herald have reported that Wisemantel has left Australia; the last time we looked quite polished in attack was with him so wonder if he could be on the radar. The reasons are to concentrate on business outside of rugby.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 05 Jan 2023, 9:35 am

Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm, I'm lamenting the style he had at Leicester definitely. I did expect him to develop that once he had the basics but it never came. As with Jones style of play over the last 3 years people were fine overall in 2020 (and there were other things happening then too!) when the results don't come (if they don't) you see how things come unstuck quickly as there is nothing else to back it up. A few people are saying it's results that count, ok but that puts you under a tonne of pressure if the ball bounces wrong. I'm not one for calling for peoples heads on the whole; I'd have kept Johnson and Lancaster on longer. But I do feel Borthwick's England has to offer good entertainment and wins; and that's where I feel Robertson was better placed for where we are now. Borthwick really needs that attack coach in place ASAP, or at the very least demonstrate he knows where Jones went wrong.

He has one. Gleeson had wasps playing a good brand of rugby didnt he? How much influence did he have in the England attacking plan under Jones? Maybe we'll have an idea come the 6n.

A coach too timid to implement his ideas while his area of coaching goes badly wrong (unless you're Squidge rugby who sees the makings of brilliance). There are supposedly more changes in the offing, can't see how Gleeson can sidestep the sheer dullness of the attacking play.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 05 Jan 2023, 9:35 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-11448189/England-hold-talks-Scott-Robinson-succeeding-Eddie-Jones-2023-World-Cup.htmlthe RF
Dull or not, they were there.

On slightly related news the Sydney Herald have reported that Wisemantel has left Australia; the last time we looked quite polished in attack was with him so wonder if he could be on the radar. The reasons are to concentrate on business outside of rugby.

Exactly my point.......column fillers.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 05 Jan 2023, 9:40 am

Your point is that you were bored of the reports?

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Post by Geordie Thu 05 Jan 2023, 9:54 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm, I'm lamenting the style he had at Leicester definitely. I did expect him to develop that once he had the basics but it never came. As with Jones style of play over the last 3 years people were fine overall in 2020 (and there were other things happening then too!) when the results don't come (if they don't) you see how things come unstuck quickly as there is nothing else to back it up. A few people are saying it's results that count, ok but that puts you under a tonne of pressure if the ball bounces wrong. I'm not one for calling for peoples heads on the whole; I'd have kept Johnson and Lancaster on longer. But I do feel Borthwick's England has to offer good entertainment and wins; and that's where I feel Robertson was better placed for where we are now. Borthwick really needs that attack coach in place ASAP, or at the very least demonstrate he knows where Jones went wrong.

He has one. Gleeson had wasps playing a good brand of rugby didnt he? How much influence did he have in the England attacking plan under Jones? Maybe we'll have an idea come the 6n.

A coach too timid to implement his ideas while his area of coaching goes badly wrong (unless you're Squidge rugby who sees the makings of brilliance). There are supposedly more changes in the offing, can't see how Gleeson can sidestep the sheer dullness of the attacking play.

Or overruled by a dominating manager who wanted his own style of attack implemented and Gleeson was working towards that?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 05 Jan 2023, 9:59 am

Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm, I'm lamenting the style he had at Leicester definitely. I did expect him to develop that once he had the basics but it never came. As with Jones style of play over the last 3 years people were fine overall in 2020 (and there were other things happening then too!) when the results don't come (if they don't) you see how things come unstuck quickly as there is nothing else to back it up. A few people are saying it's results that count, ok but that puts you under a tonne of pressure if the ball bounces wrong. I'm not one for calling for peoples heads on the whole; I'd have kept Johnson and Lancaster on longer. But I do feel Borthwick's England has to offer good entertainment and wins; and that's where I feel Robertson was better placed for where we are now. Borthwick really needs that attack coach in place ASAP, or at the very least demonstrate he knows where Jones went wrong.

He has one. Gleeson had wasps playing a good brand of rugby didnt he? How much influence did he have in the England attacking plan under Jones? Maybe we'll have an idea come the 6n.

A coach too timid to implement his ideas while his area of coaching goes badly wrong (unless you're Squidge rugby who sees the makings of brilliance). There are supposedly more changes in the offing, can't see how Gleeson can sidestep the sheer dullness of the attacking play.

Or overruled by a dominating manager who wanted his own style of attack implemented and Gleeson was working towards that?

Oh I absolutely agree with the second point that Gleeson wouldn't be able to do exactly as he wanted as it would need to fit with an overall scheme of work, what the other coaches were doing etc, but I was not impressed with England's attack at all. Would I be excited if he stayed on, no, not at all.

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Post by Geordie Thu 05 Jan 2023, 10:06 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm, I'm lamenting the style he had at Leicester definitely. I did expect him to develop that once he had the basics but it never came. As with Jones style of play over the last 3 years people were fine overall in 2020 (and there were other things happening then too!) when the results don't come (if they don't) you see how things come unstuck quickly as there is nothing else to back it up. A few people are saying it's results that count, ok but that puts you under a tonne of pressure if the ball bounces wrong. I'm not one for calling for peoples heads on the whole; I'd have kept Johnson and Lancaster on longer. But I do feel Borthwick's England has to offer good entertainment and wins; and that's where I feel Robertson was better placed for where we are now. Borthwick really needs that attack coach in place ASAP, or at the very least demonstrate he knows where Jones went wrong.

He has one. Gleeson had wasps playing a good brand of rugby didnt he? How much influence did he have in the England attacking plan under Jones? Maybe we'll have an idea come the 6n.

A coach too timid to implement his ideas while his area of coaching goes badly wrong (unless you're Squidge rugby who sees the makings of brilliance). There are supposedly more changes in the offing, can't see how Gleeson can sidestep the sheer dullness of the attacking play.

Or overruled by a dominating manager who wanted his own style of attack implemented and Gleeson was working towards that?

Oh I absolutely agree with the second point that Gleeson wouldn't be able to do exactly as he wanted as it would need to fit with an overall scheme of work, what the other coaches were doing etc, but I was not impressed with England's attack at all. Would I be excited if he stayed on, no, not at all.

No i dont think many would be particularly impressed with our attack recently. But im still unsure was that down to Gleeson being poor or Jones forcing requirements. I only say that as Wasps did play some very good rugby with Gleeson in that role.

We shall see i guess.

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Post by mountain man Thu 05 Jan 2023, 10:16 am

As for style of play Borthwick uses with Eng, that might depend on who he picks. Will he only select players to suit a style he wants or will he select the best available players then adopt a style to suit them. Probably bit of both. With Tigers he was limited to players he had, now he can pick whoever he wants who qualifies. That's why I'm so keen to see his 6N squad.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 05 Jan 2023, 11:20 am

Geordie wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Geordie wrote:Have you ever had one?

Tried a bit, my family is all from the North East so I was persuaded to try. Not to my taste, but then again, neither are Mars bars.

Now, a deep fried Boost bar might be worth considering.

More of a Scottish thing than North Eastern. We have a much more cultured palate south of the border.

Horden Chippy was the source of the Mars bar. My family tend to eat far too many pies and similar unhealthy foods, they think chips count as healthy veg. Being from the real south, I actually know what salad is, unlike them or if they do, they ignore it. They really are so stereotypical of the comedy version of a "northerner".
Well despite being foem Newcastle and my mother from Glasgow,  I've never had the pleasure.  

I also have a slightly better diet, though I don't mind a dorty kebab once in a while 😁

Ps do any of your family play for Horden RFC....they're a tough side. Played them many a time...and always been a physical battle.

No, my family tend to be short and wirey, typical minters. Okay for a scrum half but most support Sunderland for their sins and play footie.

I did have a cousin that played for West Hartlepool, many years ago.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 05 Jan 2023, 12:22 pm

mountain man wrote:As for style of play Borthwick uses with Eng, that might depend on who he picks. Will he only select players to suit a style he wants or will he select the best available players then adopt a style to suit them. Probably bit of both. With Tigers he was limited to players he had, now he can pick whoever he wants who qualifies. That's why I'm so keen to see his 6N squad.

I think you have an idea of what key principles you want from you team and select around that. The specific game plan then plays to the strengths of those you have who fit those principles. Borthwick had a pretty hefty clear out at Tigers, he wanted a certain mindset, those who were willing to work to improve and a real belligerent hunger from his players. He tended towards a mobile, physical and confrontational team, I don't think that will have changed.

The scope of the attack and some of the game plans may be different but in his Tigers days his game plans weren't one size fits all and Ford in-particular regularly stepped out of the attacking shape to play what he saw.

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Post by Geordie Thu 05 Jan 2023, 2:11 pm

it'll be interesting to see how he make sup the back 5.

Itoje needs someone rock solid beside him as hes not quite hitting the high notes. Likewise Curry.

Who goes to 8...

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Post by king_carlos Thu 05 Jan 2023, 4:55 pm

So then, it sounds like the 'camp' was split over 2 days in Gloucester and 1 day in Liverpool with around 45 players, some rehabbing, involved depending on where there club base is and when they were available. So a big group basically just for the new coaching staff to get their first interactions with them.

A 36-man squad is expected to be named on the 16th January. Early rumours are Cole, Earl and Kelly in of course. Rumoured that a large Tigers contingent will be involved too. Again not a surprise given they already had a fairly large representation.

This is very much friend of a friend stuff, but a pal who's a Sarries fan and usually knows his stuff heard that Daly was at one of Gloucester days. I wouldn't pick him as a fullback of course with Steward, Arundell and Malins available but as a winger he'd make sense in the Borthwick game plan. Good on kick chase and a massive boot. He's been strong defensively in the Sarries blitz this season too which will be a similar structure to Sinfield's I'd guess. His form for Sarries has been very good across 13, 11 and 15. Looking as quick as ever and still has terrific footwork.

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Post by Poorfour Thu 05 Jan 2023, 6:07 pm

Marcus Smith missed the training camp but was back in full training at Quins this week and is expected to be back for the "European" Sharks match next week. The Indy is also reporting that he's set to meet with Borthwick this week.

It'll be interesting to see if he features in Borthwick's plans, either now or post the RWC.
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Post by doctor_grey Thu 05 Jan 2023, 11:45 pm

England does not have a lot of real options at 10 ready to step up at the moment.  Can't see Borthwick picking an England squad without Smith and Farrell, whatever we might think of either one.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 06 Jan 2023, 12:10 am

With Ford back in full training I'd guess the question Poorfour is asking is whether Farrell and Ford might be favoured to Smith? Certainly possible. I'd doubt any fly-halves outside those three are considered though. They are the standout options by a mile.

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Post by Geordie Fri 06 Jan 2023, 8:22 am

Reports that Nick Evans will be appointed as attack coach...

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Post by mountain man Fri 06 Jan 2023, 8:23 am

Given his form for Sarries and with Smith unavailable and Ford not yet fit I'd be astounded if it wasn't Farrell at 10 for England. It's just question of who is back up option. What I don't want is Ford is deemed fit enough and he starts and 10 and we get Farrell at 12.
For me Farrell is 10 or nothing, the issue might be what happens as and when Smith/Ford fully fit and firing. I'm very interested to see if Borthwick would have Farrell as bench option for 10/12 cover which makes sense.

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Post by Geordie Fri 06 Jan 2023, 8:49 am

I agree...we have young 12's coming through now...we need to be looking at them.

Kelly obviously the prime contender for this 6n...but ongoing there will be others.

Farrell will start at 10...i dont have much doubt of that one.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Jan 2023, 8:50 am

The urgency required is to cap Smith or run the risk of losing him to Scotland.

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Post by Geordie Fri 06 Jan 2023, 8:54 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:The urgency required is to cap Smith or run the risk of losing him to Scotland.

Thats a dilemma for Smith aswell.

Does he go for England and face the challenge of Farrell, Smith and potentially Atkinson etc...or Scotland and the challenge of Fin Russell...

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Post by mountain man Fri 06 Jan 2023, 8:58 am

With Hastings ruled out there's a vacancy for 6N as well.

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Post by TJ Fri 06 Jan 2023, 9:04 am

mountain man wrote:With Hastings ruled out there's a vacancy for 6N as well.

Which looks like its going to be filled by Healy

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Jan 2023, 9:34 am

I'd happily accept he's probably behind Smith, Farrell and Ford now but he's coming on very quickly. Similar to Redpath though who was probably a bit raw when he went into the England squad was capped very quickly by Scotland and could have been useful to us now.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 06 Jan 2023, 10:05 am

Given the injury issues with Smith and Ford it would make sense to keep Fin Smith around the squad. Get him acclimatised and see if his face fits, Eddie had already started that. Post world cup Farrell is going to be heading towards mid thirties and Ford is past the 30 mark. Neither will make the world cup in 2027 so planning early does make sense.

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Post by Geordie Fri 06 Jan 2023, 10:22 am

Oh im not saying dont cap him hes a talented player...im saying it also depends on where the player sees his best future.

Hes been in the England squads so maybe hes happy to continue.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 06 Jan 2023, 10:24 am

Geordie wrote:Oh im not saying dont cap him hes a talented player...im saying it also depends on where the player sees his best future.

Hes been in the England squads so maybe hes happy to continue.

To be fair I think he still qualifies for the England under 20s so could be captaining them again.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 06 Jan 2023, 10:55 am

A friend of mine who is usually in the know has said that Nick Evans has got the nod for attack coach.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 06 Jan 2023, 10:56 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:A friend of mine who is usually in the know has said that Nick Evans has got the nod for attack coach.

It's being reported in the Torygraph.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 06 Jan 2023, 11:04 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:A friend of mine who is usually in the know has said that Nick Evans has got the nod for attack coach.

It's being reported in the Torygraph.

The score on Sunday said it all, glad we are keeping Sam though, if it is true.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Jan 2023, 11:22 am

Promising that they're getting things done pretty quickly. And obviously glad he's not settling on Gleeson.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 06 Jan 2023, 11:30 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:A friend of mine who is usually in the know has said that Nick Evans has got the nod for attack coach.

It's being reported in the Torygraph.

The score on Sunday said it all, glad we are keeping Sam though, if it is true.

Only cause he's coming home to take the top job Run

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 06 Jan 2023, 11:31 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Promising that they're getting things done pretty quickly. And obviously glad he's not settling on Gleeson.

Gleeson had a good reputation at Wasps. I think Eddie was to ambitious with a team that wasn't equipped to deliver what he was trying to achieve.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Jan 2023, 11:36 am

Well Evans and the rest of the Harlequins coaches have seemed to get the best out of the players and brought some more fun to them than they had under Gustard. Can help Smith flourish you'd think.

According to the Times Ian Peel is also being lined up to coach the scrum, another area that has gone down hill rapidly recently. I'm more optimistic with these reports tbh.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 06 Jan 2023, 12:05 pm

Worth pointing out that in general the best managers are those who find and surround themselves with the best specialists. Lots of good signs right now.

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Post by Rugby Fan Fri 06 Jan 2023, 12:14 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Promising that they're getting things done pretty quickly. And obviously glad he's not settling on Gleeson.

Before this news, there was talk on one of the podcasts that Gleeson was rumoured to have had some good ideas which Jones wouldn't pursue. The gist being that a misfiring attack wasn't his fault. They were floating the idea Gleeson cound be retained, and given more scope.

Funniy enough, Wisemantel, who got a lot of credit for his England work, has just resigned from his job as attack coach with Australia. He's not a candidate for an England return though. He just wants more time with his family. His decision has sparked more discussion that Jones might be asked to join the Wallabies for a short stint.


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Post by doctor_grey Fri 06 Jan 2023, 12:30 pm

You guys really think Fin Smith is the fourth best EQ 10? I've watched most of his games with Saints and I see a high ceiling, but at the top level now? Before the RWC?

Read about Nick Evans. Good signing for England. But I wonder what that will do to Quins. Reports for now indicate this appointment is for the 6 Nations. But perhaps longer if things mesh well?

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Post by majesticimperialman Fri 06 Jan 2023, 12:52 pm

When borthwick finally name his squad will he beable  to pick HIS squad or will  he be restricted to who he can choose?

Will we see the same old faces we saw under EJ?

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Post by mountain man Fri 06 Jan 2023, 1:36 pm

If a player is England qualified he can pick them. Why would he be restricted?

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Post by Poorfour Fri 06 Jan 2023, 1:44 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:When borthwick finally name his squad will he beable  to pick HIS squad or will  he be restricted to who he can choose?

If he's learned from how his predecessors have managed their squads, then he won't find many restrictions. Both Johnno and Eddie regularly had training squads that were very different from the tournament squads they picked a few weeks later (though Lancaster was largely constrained by "who is fit to play this time?")

majesticimperialman wrote:Will we see the same old faces we saw under EJ?

For the most part, yes. With the exception of a few positions that might get shaken up (5, 6, wing and maybe 12 look the most likely to me), there aren't many obvious bolters and in an RWC year experience counts. I expect there will be a few changes around the fringes of the squad, and injury is likely to force some new faces at hooker, say, but the core XXIII mostly picks itself. The issue isn't so much the talent as getting it to perform.

If Borthwick does go with Smith, M rather than reverting to Ford or Farrell or taking a gamble on Smith, F, I hope he puts a few more players around him who are on his wavelength. That becomes more likely if Nick Evans is the attack coach.
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Post by Mr Bounce Fri 06 Jan 2023, 2:05 pm

Evans confirmed by England Rugby Facebook page

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Jan 2023, 2:06 pm

Yup. Confirmed as for the 6Ns.

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Post by Poorfour Fri 06 Jan 2023, 2:12 pm

The timings work out so that he can go back and coach Quins on England's bye weeks. Seems like a good result all round but it'll be interesting to see if it becomes a longer term thing.
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Post by doctor_grey Fri 06 Jan 2023, 4:09 pm

Poorfour wrote:The timings work out so that he can go back and coach Quins on England's bye weeks. Seems like a good result all round but it'll be interesting to see if it becomes a longer term thing.
I'm sure if this works well an accomodation will be made for the RWC.  Beyond that, who knows?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 06 Jan 2023, 8:08 pm

doctor_grey wrote:You guys really think Fin Smith is the fourth best EQ 10?  I've watched most of his games with Saints and I see a high ceiling, but at the top level now?  Before the RWC?

Read about Nick Evans.  Good signing for England.  But I wonder what that will do to Quins.  Reports for now indicate this appointment is for the 6 Nations.  But perhaps longer if things mesh well?  

If not Fin Smith you are looking at the out of form Joe Simmonds or Bailey or Atkinson neither of which are holding down starting 10 jobs for their team so far this season.

From the man who shortlisted Borthwick

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/01/06/how-rfu-picked-steve-borthwick-succeed-eddie-jones/

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Post by king_carlos Fri 06 Jan 2023, 8:31 pm

Head coach - Borthwick
Defence coach - Sinfield
Forwards - Cockers (presumably scrum and contact area with SB on lineout)
Backs - Evans
Scrum - Peel

I like the look of that on paper. It will be interesting to see how it fits together on the field and with the personnel available.

The last 'personnel available' part being where things slipped away in EJs first period. When he took over there was a clear element of working very well with what he had. Robshaw and Haskell on the flanks but getting so much from them being the best example. Ford-Farrell at their best another very good one. Since 2019 they seemed to take on bold tactical changes but with key players unavailable and the replacements nowhere near the same standard (yet at least) it just wasn't working.

Borthwick at Tigers was terrific at getting the most out of those available to him. Hopefully the above group can do similar in a short timespan. It's a well rounded coaching team.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 07 Jan 2023, 12:28 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:You guys really think Fin Smith is the fourth best EQ 10?  I've watched most of his games with Saints and I see a high ceiling, but at the top level now?  Before the RWC?

Read about Nick Evans.  Good signing for England.  But I wonder what that will do to Quins.  Reports for now indicate this appointment is for the 6 Nations.  But perhaps longer if things mesh well?  

If not Fin Smith you are looking at the out of form Joe Simmonds or Bailey or Atkinson neither of which are holding down starting 10 jobs for their team so far this season.

From the man who shortlisted Borthwick

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/01/06/how-rfu-picked-steve-borthwick-succeed-eddie-jones/
One thing I have noticed about Fin, he doesn't seem to get rattled.  That is something which could easily help his transition to the next level.  

It really seems very surprising to me how thin England are in some positions.  Not a new observaton, but still.  Yet, the back row and even second row have a lot of quality proven depth.

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Post by Poorfour Sat 07 Jan 2023, 12:34 am

Farrell made direct shoulder to head contact in the Gloucester game tonight. It wasn’t looked at on the pitch as it had happened too many phases previously, but if the citing commissioner takes an interest, Borthwick may not have the option to start him against Scotland.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 Jan 2023, 9:27 am

Looks very close to a red. The only mitigation being he was bent at the waist and it wasn't a big run up. I'd suspect that he will be given a ban at the short end of the scale.

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