Scotland's 6N Build Up, Then Inevitable Fall: Dark Horses of the Year 10 years running

First topic message reminder :

It's the hope that kills ya!

Hazel Sapling wrote:

Tramptastic wrote:My guy on the inside says new uncapped players in the squad include:

Cameron Henderson
Ben Healy
Ruaridh McConnichie

First two fine, can see the argument. Would have maybe gone Hunter-Hill instead of Henderson but don't feel too strongly either way

McConnochie, the former England wing at Bath...think he has had a large amount of injury problems, snubbed us for England when he was in form and is 31. I would rather go to Maitland (in good form at Sarries, long time servant) and/or Steyn (Glasgow servant, captain). We lack wings at the minute but even so, surely we can scour further and wider for a young wing to sit on the bench

I agree, that would be a massive slap in the face for Maitland who has been outstanding for Scotland and is on form. Is McConnichie even getting picked for Bath?

Just been told Maitland is included too

Well that’s okay then haha.

Haha nae bother, I'm being drip fed names so only updating when I get then!

Tramptastic wrote:My guy on the inside says new uncapped players in the squad include:

Cameron Henderson
Ben Healy
Ruaridh McConnichie

Boo leave Henderson in Leicester, we've got a lot of injuries at the minute we could with Cam being available over the 6N period. Six games and three starts this season should not scream in line for debut cap despite his obvious potential.

Tramptastic wrote:My guy on the inside says new uncapped players in the squad include:

Cameron Henderson
Ben Healy
Ruaridh McConnichie

And Stafford McDowall.

Backs: Ewan Ashman (Sale), Josh Bayliss (Bath), Simon Berghan, Jamie Bhatti, Fraser Brown (all Glasgow), Dave Cherry (Edinburgh), Andy Christie (Saracens), Luke Crosbie (Edinburgh), Jack Dempsey, Matt Fagerson, Zander Fagerson (all Glasgow), Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh), Jonny Gray (Exeter), Richie Gray (Glasgow), Cameron Henderson (Leicester), WP Nel, Jamie Ritchie, Pierre Schoeman (all Edinburgh), Javan Sebastian (Scarlets), Sam Skinner (Edinburgh), Rory Sutherland (Ulster), George Turner (Glasgow), Hamish Watson (Edinburgh)

Forwards: Chris Harris (Gloucester), Ben Healy (Munster), Stuart Hogg (Exeter), George Horne, Huw Jones (both Glasgow), Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh), Sean Maitland (Saracens), Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath) Stafford McDowell, Ali Price (both Glasgow), Cameron Redpath (Bath), Finn Russell (Racing 92), Ollie Smith, Kyle Steyn, Sione Tuipulotu (all Glasgow), Duhan van der Merwe (Edinburgh), Ben White (London Irish)

Some interesting choices! Especially Ragnar and Duhan who are both injured.
Shona, Stafford and Shug in the centres but no Sam Johnson ( who is 100% closer to match fitness than Ragnar or Duhan!).
Healey and McConnichie, big calls.
Hogg? Match fit??

Maybe that means that Fagerson and DVDM are nearer to fitness than we are aware

BigGee wrote:Maybe that means that Fagerson and DVDM are nearer to fitness than we are aware

I'm pretty certain that ahead of the Perpignan game on Saturday the club said Ragnar was due to see a specialist re his hamstring troubles and would not be available for a couple of months.

I suspect in the Fagerson and VDM cases it's as much about the lack of depth Scotland have available in those positions currently. Whereas at centre there are plenty of options, so Johnson will be allowed to ease back into things at Glasgow.

McConichie obviously the big surprise there (considering Healy was expected, relatively speaking). I guess with Graham out (Rowe also), and McLean not really getting any game time at Glasgow recently we're looking quite thin on the wings, especially if VDM really isn't fit. Steyn and Maitland would be a solid enough pairing, but doesn't exactly scream X-factor.

Other than that, seems like a squad without too many surprises. You could argue over the odd position, but on the whole nothing really stands out.

For my own benefit mostly

LH: Schoeman, Sutherland, Bhatti
HK: Turner, Ashman, Brown, Cherry
TH: Zander, Berghan, Nel, Sebastian
Lock: J Gray, R Gray, Gilchrist, Skinner, Henderson
Backrow: Ritchie, Watson, M Fagerson, Dempsey, Bayliss, Christie, Crosbie

SH: Price, Horne, White
FH: Russell, Kinghorn, Healy
Centres: Tuipulotu, Harris, Jones, Redpath, McDowall
Back three: Hogg, Maitland, Smith, Steyn, VDM, McConnochie

Hazel Sapling wrote:For my own benefit mostly

LH: Schoeman, Sutherland, Bhatti Solid, probably only Kebble missing out.
HK: Turner, Ashman, Brown, CherrySolid, maybe Rambo to come in.
TH: Zander, Berghan, Nel, SebastianRagnar is a doubt, other three are reliable but underwhelming.
Lock: J Gray, R Gray, Gilchrist, Skinner, Henderson Richie and GG, then a drop off a cliff until Ickle Jonny and Cummings are fit.
Backrow: Ritchie, Watson, M Fagerson, Dempsey, Bayliss, Christie, Crosbie Incredibly 7 is the problem position. Hamish and Darge need to get fit asap.

SH: Price, Horne, White I would have Dobie in for Aldi at the moment.
FH: Russell, Kinghorn, Healy Is Blarehorn our third choice 10 or fourth choice winger?
Centres: Tuipulotu, Harris, Jones, Redpath, McDowall McDowall-Harris anyone?
Back three: Hogg, Maitland, Smith, Steyn, VDM, McConnochie

No Maits-Hogg-Smith anyone?

jimbopip wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:For my own benefit mostly

LH: Schoeman, Sutherland, Bhatti Solid, probably only Kebble missing out.
HK: Turner, Ashman, Brown, CherrySolid, maybe Rambo to come in.
TH: Zander, Berghan, Nel, SebastianRagnar is a doubt, other three are reliable but underwhelming.
Lock: J Gray, R Gray, Gilchrist, Skinner, Henderson Richie and GG, then a drop off a cliff until Ickle Jonny and Cummings are fit.
Backrow: Ritchie, Watson, M Fagerson, Dempsey, Bayliss, Christie, Crosbie Incredibly 7 is the problem position. Hamish and Darge need to get fit asap.

SH: Price, Horne, White I would have Dobie in for Aldi at the moment.
FH: Russell, Kinghorn, Healy Is Blarehorn our third choice 10 or fourth choice winger?
Centres: Tuipulotu, Harris, Jones, Redpath, McDowall McDowall-Harris anyone?
Back three: Hogg, Maitland, Smith, Steyn, VDM, McConnochie

No Maits-Hogg-Smith anyone?

Not sure how fit Hogg is either?


Surely Fagerson would not be in the squad if he was months away.

Graham and Darge are not in if as they sre considered longer term.

Think Kebble is injured Jimbo and has been missing a while anyway. Fingers crossed he can come back for the club games over the 6N period

Back-row becomes very interesting if Watson is not fit. Almost three weeks away, but with head injuries it is never cut and dry. Crosbie would be my preference to replace Watson. Rather weaken one position than two.

At nine, probably we should have approached Sale's Gus Warr. 23 year old, keeping Quirke out of the starting line-up, looks a decent player. Chapman looks a good player too. Not sure what has happened to Vellacott. Price is there on reputation

Back three looks slow. Hogg is still pretty quick but it is generally old. I think we could see Kinghorn on one wing. If VDM and Graham were healthy, Townsend might have the guts to start Ollie Smith at FB but can't see it now.

What a cracking squad! Missing Graham is a loss of course, but plenty of others will fill his shoes in the attack department. I feel bad for Matthews who has been playing very well for Glasgow and Hutchinson who can't catch a break at international level despite regular game time for Northampton. I'm sure there are others who will feel aggrieved.

What I like about this squad so much is that we will get something a little different this 6N. For example, if Russell starts with Healy on the bench. Losing Graham means we lose his electric attacking ability but we may get Maitland back on a wing which means we have a robust defender and an experienced footballer with an eye for the tryline. It even feels as though we might see a change in the centres and the return of the Gray brothers in the boiler room.

Depth across all positions looks a lot lot better than this time in 2019 (squad below for reference)

Alex Allan (Glasgow Warriors), Adam Ashe (Glasgow Warriors), Simon Berghan (Edinburgh), Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors), David Cherry (Edinburgh) – uncapped, Allan Dell (Edinburgh), Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh), Gary Graham (Newcastle Falcons) – uncapped, Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors), John Hardie (Newcastle Falcons), Jake Kerr (Leicester Tigers) – uncapped, Stuart McInally (Edinburgh), Willem Nel (Edinburgh), D’Arcy Rae (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped, Jamie Ritchie (Edinburgh), Sam Skinner (Exeter Chiefs), Grant Stewart (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped, Josh Strauss (Sale Sharks), Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors), Ben Toolis (Edinburgh), Hamish Watson (Edinburgh), Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors)

Chris Dean (Edinburgh) – uncapped, Darcy Graham (Edinburgh) – 1 cap, Nick Grigg (Glasgow Warriors) – 6 caps, Sam Johnson (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped, Chris Harris (Newcastle Falcons) – 6 caps, Adam Hastings (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps, Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 65 caps, George Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 4 caps, Pete Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 38 caps, Huw Jones (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps, Lee Jones (Glasgow Warriors) – 10 caps, Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh) – 7 caps, Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN (Clermont Auvergne) – 66 caps, Sean Maitland (Saracens) – 37 caps, Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps, Finn Russell (Racing 92) – 40 caps, Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 46 caps

Toonie has done well to not only cap a lot of younger players since then, but now in a world cup year, to not completely ignore the experienced heads. This is the squad I have been hoping for. It feels like such a relief to see Maitland, Jones, WP Nel, R Gray and even Hogg who is not in a great way at the moment, called up to do their bit too. Townsend could have easily have gone for McLean, Hoyland, Sykes or Young, etc and left out some of these more experienced players. I am so glad he didn't and it makes me very happy to see them there.

This squad has bags of potential and I can't be bothered to see the difference in international caps betwee nteh 6N squad of 2019 and this one, but I am certain it is much higher in 2023. Roll on February!

Pleased to see McDowall in the squad. Those tackle bags don't hold themselves....

Tighthead concerns aside, it's a decent squad with few howlers.

Based on assumptions around injuries and match fitness, I reckon we'll see the following XV against England:

1.Schoeman 2.Turner 3.Berghan 4.Gilchrist 5.R Gray 6.Fagerson 7.Ritchie 8.Dempsey 9.White 10.Russell 11.Steyn 12.Tuipolotu 13.Harris 14.Maitland 15.Smith

16.Sutherland 17.Ashman 18.Nel 19.Skinner 20.Christie 21.Price 22.Kinghorn 23.H Jones

TH and back 3 the obvious weak spots. Glad to see Maitland back but we're really lacking X-factor without VDM and Graham. Given so many of our tries come from those two, and our entire attacking plan seems to just be to give them to ball, that's a worry.

I like your team FES but I suspect Price will start and I'd love to see Crosbie at 7. Jeez that backline looks slow too.

Agree on the lack of pace, but on the plus side solid as a rock and I think we can expect England to come out of the traps for Borthwick at Twickenham. There may be a storm to be weathered. Massive shame that our entire first choice back three are unlikely to be match fit.

Got no complaints with this squad but I'm easily pleased haha.

Delighted Cam Henderson is finally in and no surprises that Healy is too, I would like to see what he can do in a match now, hopefully ge gets some time during the 6N.

As for McConnachie, he's the surprise and I'll answer the question about has he had any game rime, no, he's not started a match this season :O.

And regarding Hoggy, some are asking about his fitness. Well I'm sure I read something online last week from Baxter stating that it's not serious, it was just painful when he put weight on it but he had started training again so he was hopeful it wouldn't be long until he was back

Hope that helps clear up your questions and worries .

Anyway roll on 6N but for now it's the Australian Open until the week before the England game.

Happy with the squad, as expected illustrates our issues with injuries on the wing!

Never thought Maitland would be back in, got the impression he wasn't pleased at being dropped by Toonie and was doing a Jim Hamilton!

Back row stocks, despite opening injuries, are healthy, 2nd rows healthy, front row should hold its on (as long as the objective is to get the ball away very quickly)

Also glad there's no Johnson, there's only a couple games I can think of where he's been the stand out

Hogg "should" be fit according to the beeb

Think Toonie said that everyone named should be available for England match. Fairly ambitious for some of those players perhaps but it’s good to know that we may get Zander and VDM back in time. Training at Orion will help get them up to speed, it always looks like a very professional setup there.

Have to say I have no complaints about that squad, although maconnachie is a weird one. To be honest I'd rather see Smith selected with Hogg on the bench. Put nomaits on the wing as the experienced head to help support defensively and Steyn on the other. Healy to cover 10 and Kinghorn the utility sub.

No... Wait, just Healy to cover 10, otherwise too many subs!

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scotland-rugby-star-faces-axe-28990372


Might explain why we have not seen so much of him this year!


Very silly boy who is likely to lose his career now.

His Scotland career is finished but he'll get a gig elsewhere, probably not in the UK though.

Just read the article. He's finished . No club will take a chance on him he's a pr nightmare

Heuer27 wrote:His Scotland career is finished but he'll get a gig elsewhere, probably not in the UK though.

New Zealand continue to employ various domestic abusers for the all blacks...

Reading that article, he's scum. End of. That's horrible what he put that woman through. Sack him and be done with it.

I hope she's able to move on and lead a good life. I hope he finds help and doesn't commit this crime ever again.

BigGee wrote:https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scotland-rugby-star-faces-axe-28990372


Might explain why we have not seen so much of him this year!


Very silly boy who is likely to lose his career now.

That is a shocking development. As fans we can only really express disappointment and anger but he clearly needs to see a therapist before he can even think about playing rugby again.

I'm a big fan of second chances but he's going to have to do a lot of hard work off the field to save his career. It may well be over given the severity of his actions.

Punishment vs rehabilitation. Coercive control (or an attempt at) is a horrible offence. Probably him done as a rugby pro in Scotland for a few years (at least).

Pro D2 or Japan with some professional help and, over time, hopefully a form of amends is probably the best case scenario

I hope the lad sorts himself out with a bit of help. Maybe he will be referred into that treatment program referred to in the article. He did at least plead guilty and spare her the ordeal of a trail.

He does, however, need to sort out his life and his issues and you might imagine the professional sports environment is not going to be the place to do that.

If Glasgow and the SRU were in any doubt, they will have seen that the internet reaction to this is telling them that sacking him is not going to be an unpopular choice!

That story makes for grim reading. Career ruined. Hope the lassie is OK.

Getting away from unpleasant matters and back to the coming internationals. My son and i just picked up a couple of tickets for England v Scotland at Twickenham.

I was quite surprised at that, assuming it would be sold out at this stage, it has always been hard to get tickets in the past when I have tried.He looked at the website and there are actually a good few tickets still available.

Maybe it is the price and the current recession, tickets for Twickenham are just ridiculously expensive. I would say pushing £50 more for an equivalent ticket at Murrayfield. I certainly would not be paying that amount on a regular basis and even balked a bit as a one off.

Still we blinked eventually and are going, really looking forward to it now, it is going to be a hard match to call. The first matches generally are and it is even more intriguing with the new England coaching set up.

https://www.talkingrugbyunion.co.uk/ruaridh-mcconnochie-i-couldn-t-believe-it-when-gregor-called-me-/36094.htm

Bit of chat from our not English newbie

Seems to have been a problem with the recent group of players, there was another lad in the u20s just a few years ago done for assault wasn't there?

Maybe the SRU should invest in preventative education for their younger players before it becomes a cultural issue.

BigGee prices are ridiculous now, my Welsh colleague was saying the cheapest at the principality are over 100 quid. The thing is they'll always sell out so in the union's opinion why not milk it?

Either way you'll have a great day at the cabbage patch, lovely stadium with a great atmosphere.

Is it a male sports culture issue? I.e. we hold sports figures in too high a regard and let problematic behaviours slide at youth level because its for the greater good of the team and we assume they will "grow out of it"? Boys at teenage level are trying to figure the world out and are often left by their parents to figure it out by themselves which can be VERY dangerous, especially with public figures like Tate filling the gap. I know I'm worried for my boy when he grows up a bit and I'm determined to be as involved as I can.

In the case of McLean it could be a case of no input from his dad and dodgy behaviours being overlooked because "he's a high achiever at sport, how could he be a bad person?!"

NeilyBroon wrote:Seems to have been a problem with the recent group of players, there was another lad in the u20s just a few years ago done for assault wasn't there?

Maybe the SRU should invest in preventative education for their younger players before it becomes a cultural issue.

BigGee prices are ridiculous now, my Welsh colleague was saying the cheapest at the principality are over 100 quid. The thing is they'll always sell out so in the union's opinion why not milk it?

Either way you'll have a great day at the cabbage patch, lovely stadium with a great atmosphere.

The other U20 lad was done for videoing himself having sex with a lady without her knowledge or permission and then sharing it. A little bit different but equally reprehensible.

The younger generation is actually meant to be a lot more tuned into correct behaviours than us old guys, it is hard to beleive that either of them did not know that this was not the right way to behave in any shape or form. It is hard to imagine that these junior teams are not getting some kind of guidance on behaviour, particularly as they are moving into the public eye when they start to play for Scotland and will inevitably acquire a much higher profile.

It is really quite baffling really.

In McLeans case I think its probably less he knew it was unacceptable behaviour but more an underlying mental issue that led him to have a skewed sense of what is right. thats not to excuse him or take away his responsibility for his actions

That's it, it's the fact that the other team mates were implicated in sending that video around suggests to me it's an endemic issue, especially in light of McLean's abuse case.

It's not so much how to behave but the attitude towards others, especially women, that worries me. I wouldn't be surprised if more comes out. Just look at the met after Sarah everard and the issues there. It's something that obviously needs to be addressed more directly.

We forget that these are young men with all of the hormones, lack of communication skills, poor judgement and (unfortunately) often with a lack of a positive and measured older male role model that this usually entails. This isn't ever an excuse for behaviour like this, but a potent, awful cocktail of these variables is usually the reason. One of the many reasons I have supported bringing up my kids out of the UK, although we will come back for senior school. Much, much less of that here.

I don't expect anything other than sporting performance from our professionals. They're not all like Mossy. I have reason to believe that many are a bunch of bro-ey gobsh!tes.

Its the lack of a positive role model that teaches helps them through those teenage years more than anything.

Lets assume, as you've said above, that ALL teenage boys have poor communication skills, nae self confidence (bluster and arrogance is a mask), poor judgement and, additionally, a current generational gap that means there is a discrepancy in understanding online safety by parents and, therefore, nae educating the young folk from yer mum or dad i.e. "Look out for Andrew Tate/Joe Rogan/Jordan Peterson son, they are preying on your vulnerabilities for their own end".

If everything we've assumed above is correct (a safe bet i'd say) the difference really is a lack of role models OR positive parent interventions. If these young men aren't taught the rights and wrongs of relationships, how to manage emotions and reactive positively to negative interactions then it all goes wrong VERY quickly.

On a tangent but maybe in an elite sporting school where winning is literally everything in life, maybe when they get rejected by a woman they see it as losing and they see themselves as losers. They aren't taught that losing in life is ok and is going to happen so they latch on whatever feels good at the time - lashing out at the woman or taking rubbish advice from friends or listening to online influencers.

Thats not an excuse but it's a reason maybe for their behaviour. I dread this stage of life when my boy reaches it. I know that the only thing i can do is create an environment where if he gets rejected by anyone he feels safe enough to come home and talk about it and not disappear into a cyclone of toxic manosphere rubbish. Its terrifying to think of!

Tramptastic wrote:Its the lack of a positive role model that teaches helps them through those teenage years more than anything.

Whenever I see statements like this my automatic response is to get all defensive: I have captained the bottom side at my local club and saw part of my role as skipper was to look after the boys who came up from colts and introduce them to the culture of the game. I also coached youth teams. At our club the coaching is usually by mums and dads and there is always a great emphasis on "rugby values".

However, two incidents spring to mind.

One long standing player at our club; colt to first team captain/stand off and now very slow flanker has what you may call an olive skinned complexion.  He is not Asian but always looks permatanned. At school his mates thought it would be funny to call him Sanjay The Shoe Bomber. Standard childish adolescent nonsense, not unusual in a school with very, very few non white pupils or staff. However, the head of PE who was also a player, coach and referee at our club then spent most of an academic year shouting loudly down crowded corridors, "Oi Sanjay The Shoe Bomber! Training tonight at seven o'clock. Be there."

Secondly, I once taught in a secondary which practically overlooked the local rugby club's pitches. The Head teacher had played to a fairly high standard. The Head Of Science was first team hooker at the local club, the Head Of Year 10 (in charge of Pastoral Care) was the first tem stand off,  and a couple of other teachers also played there. I wasn't there too long when a few female colleagues advised me to let the Head know I was a keen rugby player and possibly even volunteer to coach after school because the rugby clique tended to get promoted rather quickly. One or two older staff warned me against this and said there was a "very macho, boys behaving badly" culture developing in some parts of the teaching group. I decided to keep my head down and get on with my teaching.
How did it pan out? The fist team stand off who was the Head's golden boy ended up in the Sun after it came to light that he had been Home Tutoring one of the 16 year old year 11 girls and although she was, just, above the age of consent he had to leave the school under a cloud.
The Head became one of those Super Heads running a network of schools and earning enough to make FES envious.

When I think of all the staff training days over the years about anti racist and anti sexist behaviours that the people involved must have attended it beggars belief.

Still no Hoggy for Exeter this week and perhaps more surprising, still no JG, who does not seem to be injured, just not picked.

Tramptastic wrote:

On a tangent but maybe in an elite sporting school where winning is literally everything in life, maybe when they get rejected by a woman they see it as losing and they see themselves as losers. They aren't taught that losing in life is ok and is going to happen so they latch on whatever feels good at the time - lashing out at the woman or taking rubbish advice from friends or listening to online influencers.

There's a real problem with that in Sydney, where a large number of schools are Private schools (mainly 'Catholic'). Some high profile stories hitting the press of misogyny and entitlement in the time we've lived here - one example being the end of year 'muck up day' for those in their last year. A group of boys had a to-do list of things they had to do that day, and as you can imagine some of the things written on it were pretty horrific. The list was obviously shared on social media which made its way to the press.

The other example was a mass group chat which was similarly leaked, showing a large number of boys saying some appalling things about women.

The challenge in these environments are A) they are single sex so literally learn how to communicate to women from the internet, and B) throughout their lives so far they are continually told how wonderful they are and how the school they are at is so good it will set them up for life. Pressure is high to get good grades and win at sports, so losing is very much not an option. Throw into the mix a religious school's less than enthusiastic teaching on sex and contraception and it's not difficult to see why these attitudes are prevalent.

This is a complicated topic of course as the vast l majority of kids coming out of these schools end up fine as they learn good morals from family environments or are quickly put in their place after leaving the school bubble, but in terms of culture there is a lot of introspection going on at these types of schools now and rightly so.

Well thanks to social media we can see VDM is on a nice holiday currently. Take from that what you will in terms of an indication on his current fitness levels.

Just checking in to see if you have your game-faces in for two weeks from today.

You have a coach and players familiar with your system.  You also have much better nicknames for your players.
England are coming off one of their worst years in history and are starting afresh though (unfortunately) with many of the same players.

So here is my first shot:  With such a settled side, Scotland must be huge favourites.  

doctor_grey wrote:Just checking in to see if you have your game-faces in for two weeks from today.

You have a coach and players familiar with your system. You also have much better nicknames for your players.
England are coming off one of their worst years in history and are starting afresh though (unfortunately) with many of the same players.

So here is my first shot: With such a settled side, Scotland must be huge favourites.

Yes, we are really going to fall for that one

Mind you Borthwick has made Farrell captain.................. always a plus point for us even without Wilson in the side to niggle him

I'm pretty pessimistic due to injuries. I think having a midget on one wing and a giant on the other confused the English but someone broke the pair of them :-(