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Scotland's 6N Build Up, Then Inevitable Fall: Dark Horses of the Year 10 years running

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Post by NeilyBroon Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:39 am

First topic message reminder :

It's the hope that kills ya!

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Post by George Carlin Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:05 pm

BigGee wrote:Well according to the coaching staff, both Hoggy and Zander are fully fit and ready for selection!
I am deeply suspicious about how that can possibly be true.
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Post by RDW Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:10 pm

George Carlin wrote:
BigGee wrote:Well according to the coaching staff, both Hoggy and Zander are fully fit and ready for selection!
I am deeply suspicious about how that can possibly be true.

By the sound of things Hogg's has been more of a long-term niggle that he's been struggling to shake off but could be patched up to play at 80%, but Fagerson's was a serious hammie injury which isn't something to rush!

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Post by bsando Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:15 pm

I’d feel okay with fagerson starting. From the article declaring him fit Dalziel says he’s in the shape of his life or something to that effect. Two weeks full training and going by the SRU media they’ve been doing plenty of heavy lifting and full contact training at Oriam prior to their move to Spain. Worth a watch that video actually.

This weekends match feels a bit like the Calcutta cup in 2012 where Lancaster had just taken over from Johnson. I remember going to the match and afterwards feeling like Scotland had the personnel to win but just didn’t pull the trigger at crucial moments. While England simply dug in and took their opportunities. Another scrappy win like last year would do just fine. Doesn’t need to be champagne rugby.

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Post by jimbopip Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:18 pm

Schooey talking to Tom English about WP Nel,

"He has four kids now. Impressive. Don't ever let your missus walk past his house. If the wind changes direction, she might end up pregnant"

Maybe if Nellie shut the windows it might help. Whistle

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Post by Tramptastic Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:05 pm

Teamsheet to be announced at 9am tomorrow ahead of the squad flying back to london

I've been told its:

1) Schoe
2)Turner
3) Nel
4)R Gray
5) Gilchrist
6) Ritchie
7) Crosbie
8) Dempsey
9) White
10) Russell
11) VDM
12) Jones
13) Tuipulotu
14) Steyn
15) Hogg

Bench

Bhatti, Brown, Fagerson Sr, Gray Jr, Dempsey, Horne, Blairhorn, Harris

5/7 Lions dropped, the in form centres picked, the form scrum halves picked, the form pack picked (debate around hooker probably)... some pretty big decisions made!

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Post by Hazel Sapling Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:19 pm

If that is the team I would be fairly satisfied with it. Bit worried that we lack pace on the wing and would prefer Maitland's defensive chops over Steyn but generally a sensible selection.

My main issue however, is the selection of Dempsey twice.

I assume M Fagerson would start as he was held back last weekend and that would be an industrious backrow to start. Four lineout options as well with Crosbie and Ritchie in the backrow.

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Post by Tramptastic Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:33 pm

That's how good Dempsey is

Fagerson Jr to start, Dempsey to bench Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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Post by Hazel Sapling Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:39 pm

If your selection is right, hopefully Dempsey can come on and make an impact. He felt tentative coming on in November and would hope he can up the tempo from a tiring Crosbie or M Fagerson.

I remember Watson coming on a couple of seasons ago and it looked like someone had let loose a pinball. He was hitting everything and part of the reason I wanted to see him bench.

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Post by jimbopip Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:04 am

No Aldi Price in the 23!
On form he can't complain.
Blarehorn covering 10 and back 3.

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Post by Highland Shaun Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:09 am

I've just remembered, I better keep off Facebook after matches most weeks (though I like to post my thoughts on the game) because we'll see lots of moaning posts calling for Gregor to be sacked, these people are like broken records. There are times I have defended him and asked these people who would replace him and to accept that he's staying until at least October/November time!

Getting excited/nervous but that's always the case hehe.

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Post by BigGee Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:57 am

Tramptastic wrote:Teamsheet to be announced at 9am tomorrow ahead of the squad flying back to london

I've been told its:

1) Schoe
2)Turner
3) Nel
4)R Gray
5) Gilchrist
6) Ritchie
7) Crosbie
8) Dempsey
9) White
10) Russell
11) VDM
12) Jones
13) Tuipulotu
14) Steyn
15) Hogg

Bench

Bhatti, Brown, Fagerson Sr, Gray Jr, Dempsey, Horne, Blairhorn, Harris

5/7 Lions dropped, the in form centres picked, the form scrum halves picked, the form pack picked (debate around hooker probably)... some pretty big decisions made!


I would be delighted with that team. Hard to argue against any of them on form and even if Hoggy starts to flag, then Blairhorn comes on.

Sam Skinner probably the unlucky one to miss out, but I am sure we will see him at some stage in this tournament. There will be injuries as well and others will also get their chances.

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Post by Highland Shaun Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:02 am

When are the team back from sunny Spain, I presume it's tomorrow?

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Post by RDW Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:35 am

Tramptastic wrote:Teamsheet to be announced at 9am tomorrow ahead of the squad flying back to london

I've been told its:

1) Schoe
2)Turner
3) Nel
4)R Gray
5) Gilchrist
6) Ritchie
7) Crosbie
8) Dempsey
9) White
10) Russell
11) VDM
12) Jones
13) Tuipulotu
14) Steyn
15) Hogg

Bench

Bhatti, Brown, Fagerson Sr, Gray Jr, Dempsey, Horne, Blairhorn, Harris

5/7 Lions dropped, the in form centres picked, the form scrum halves picked, the form pack picked (debate around hooker probably)... some pretty big decisions made!

Well we wouldn't die trying with that team!

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Post by tigertattie Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:01 pm

BVC steps down as Fiji coach

All hail the return of the saviour?
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Post by jimbopip Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:48 pm

RDW wrote:
Tramptastic wrote:Teamsheet to be announced at 9am tomorrow ahead of the squad flying back to london

I've been told its:

1) Schoe
2)Turner
3) Nel
4)R Gray
5) Gilchrist
6) Ritchie
7) Crosbie
8) Dempsey
9) White
10) Russell
11) VDM
12) Jones
13) Tuipulotu
14) Steyn
15) Hogg

Bench

Bhatti, Brown, Fagerson Sr, Gray Jr, Dempsey, Horne, Blairhorn, Harris

5/7 Lions dropped, the in form centres picked, the form scrum halves picked, the form pack picked (debate around hooker probably)... some pretty big decisions made!

Well we wouldn't die trying with that team!


Flounder, I'm not at all sure what you mean Headscratch Do you mean we wouldn't die wondering?

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Post by NeilyBroon Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:13 pm

Teams out, as forecast by tramp.

I think for the first time in a long time this is the best team available for the job! Well done Toonie!

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Post by NeilyBroon Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:16 pm

tigertattie wrote:BVC steps down as Fiji coach

All hail the return of the saviour?

Word is he's planning on taking Jonny gray out deer hunting

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Post by jimbopip Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:23 pm

Can we all please stop saying this looks like a good team, we really have a chance and other hyperbolic platitudes!

we've been here before boys. We know how this ends.

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Post by NeilyBroon Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:29 pm

jimbopip wrote:Can we all please stop saying this looks like a good team, we really have a chance and other hyperbolic platitudes!

we've been here before boys. We know how this ends.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we'll win but I feel comforted by the fact we might be able to attack. I revise my prediction to a 20 point deficit!

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Post by jimbopip Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:46 pm

Interesting comment from Toonie,

"It was a difficult selection. There are so many players in really good form - and we back form now,"

Such a radical departure from his usual method of selection. Shocked

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Post by RDW Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:25 pm

jimbopip wrote:Interesting comment from Toonie,

"It was a difficult selection. There are so many players in really good form - and we back form now,"

Such a radical departure from his usual method of selection. Shocked

There's definitely an element of risk in this selection. There's a reason why the likes of Sexton, Farrell, AWJ (for a long time) will always get picked regardless of recent form and fitness - they are  integral players for their teams. For the last 8 years of Sexton's career his Leinster games have basically been a warmup to get him to play for Ireland.

Watson, Price, Harris etc have played probably 90% of Scotland's games in the last few years and have key players in the major wins we have had.

FWIW I like this selection, but it's a risk!

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Post by BigGee Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:43 pm

RDW wrote:
jimbopip wrote:Interesting comment from Toonie,

"It was a difficult selection. There are so many players in really good form - and we back form now,"

Such a radical departure from his usual method of selection. Shocked

There's definitely an element of risk in this selection. There's a reason why the likes of Sexton, Farrell, AWJ (for a long time) will always get picked regardless of recent form and fitness - they are integral players for their teams. For the last 8 years of Sexton's career his Leinster games have basically been a warmup to get him to play for Ireland.

Watson, Price, Harris etc have played probably 90% of Scotland's games in the last few years and have key players in the major wins we have had.

FWIW I like this selection, but it's a risk!


Yes, but you could also say they were playing in a lot of the games we could and should have won.

AWJ, Sexton, Farrell etc only keep getting picked as they are part of winning teams.

That would soon change if that took a downturn.

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Post by RDW Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:46 pm

Worth repeating this stat from November last year - for 100 of the 113 previous test matches the starting 9 was either Laidlaw or Price over a 10 year period

Huge call to leave Price out completely.

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Post by George Carlin Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:54 pm

jimbopip wrote:Can we all please stop saying this looks like a good team, we really have a chance and other hyperbolic platitudes!

we've been here before boys. We know how this ends.
As John Oliver would say, that is a Scientific Fact.
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Post by Hazel Sapling Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:58 pm

If the England game goes well and we win, I think having some of these players to come back in may help us against Wales. Last few years, we seem to struggle to get up for the Wales game after the emotions of playing England.

Having Sutherland, Ashman, Zander, J Gray, Watson, Price, Harris and Smith fighting to get into the side can only serve us well. We could realistically replace four of our starting front five for Wales and have no drop off.

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Post by sensisball Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:48 pm

Toonie, for once, is picking many form players, which is great. The starting 15 is arguably the best he could have picked (I would have preferred Maitland over Steyn for his experience and ability to cover 15) so well done Gregor:

IMO there are four main issues with the bench:

Berghan has struggled for Glasgow coming off the bench in recent weeks. If Nel has go go off injured before half time we could be in a lot of bother in the second half come scrum time. With ZF still unavailable this selection was probably forced.

Jonny Gray is either a starter or you don't have him in the 23. He brings no dynamic impact when he comes on: makes a dozen soak tackles and carried for half a foot but that wont change things, certainly not in a good way. Skinner is a better ball carrier and tackler and also has the flexibility to play 6, if Ritchie picks up a knock.

Harris is a great defensive player but he is unable to open up defences with a devastating running or passing game in the final quarter. If Toonie must include him, which clearly he must, then better to have him on at the start to give us a rock solid midfield and then deploy Jones once defences are tiring.

Finally Kinghorn. He has been covering wing for Edinburgh for the last three games and so any skills he developed as a 10 will be atrophying through lack of use. Don't think he has looked all that good on the wing either. if Kinghorn is needed anywhere, but especially at 10, for more than 15 minutes then I think we lose.

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Post by bsando Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:58 am

I agree Sapling, a theoretical squad rotation for Wales does not look bad at all. It'll be very interesting to see if that is the way Townsend is going to approach things given the RWC this year.

Sutherland
Brown
Z Fagerson
J Gray
Gilchrist
Ritchie
Watson
Dempsey
Price
Russell
VDM
Redpath
Harris
Maitland, Kinghorn or Smith
Hogg

Turner, Schoeman, Nel, R Gray, M Fagerson, Horne, Healy, Tuipulotu

Really nervous about how Hogg will play given his recent injury issues. His boot will be so crucial though. Him and Russell when both kicking well make such a difference.

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Post by bsando Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:11 am

This Saturday it’ll have been 687 days since Jones last started for Scotland at outside centre. He’s had a bad run of luck really, good to see him back in his best position.

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Post by RDW Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:20 pm

Bloody hell that's quite a stat!

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Post by RDW Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:08 pm

RDW wrote:Worth repeating this stat from November last year - for 100 of the 113 previous test matches the starting 9 was either Laidlaw or Price over a 10 year period

Huge call to leave Price out completely.

I'm sure some journalists are on here - first stealing nicknames now this tweet I mentioned appears in their article!

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/64502758

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Post by bsando Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:10 am

RDW wrote:
RDW wrote:Worth repeating this stat from November last year - for 100 of the 113 previous test matches the starting 9 was either Laidlaw or Price over a 10 year period

Huge call to leave Price out completely.

I'm sure some journalists are on here - first stealing nicknames now this tweet I mentioned appears in their article!

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/64502758

Andy Burke does seem to be on Twitter a lot asking Q’s about Scotland etc. But I’m sure some of them come on here for the high quality analysis. We should put the forum behind a paywall (apart from us of course).

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Post by jimbopip Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:15 am

Just been offered two tickets for the match. £153 each. After last weekend's fiasco I felt it was safest to pass up on them.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:30 am

I'm uncomfortable with the fact that I think Toonie has made a terrific team selection here. It all makes sense, which is alarming. My bug worry is whether Hogg is truly fit, because Borthwick will have England kicking the proverbial leather of the ball. Hogg needs to be solid, use that big boot of his if necessary but be alive to counter attacking opportunities. He'll need a big game, and it's a tough ask with so little prep for him.

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Post by BigGee Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:31 am

jimbopip wrote:Just been offered two tickets for the match. £153 each. After last weekend's fiasco I felt it was safest to pass up on them.

The prices at Twickenham are ridiculous

That's pretty much what we paid, but as a one off as my son very keen to go.

You would not want to be oaying that on a regular basis though!

Unsurprisingly, it was not sold out!

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Post by NeilyBroon Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:53 am

The u20s are putting on a good show at the stoop! 31-20 so far!

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Post by BigGee Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:56 am

It's actually been a good game to watch.

Lots of errors as you would expect at this level but some promising players from our perspective

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Post by BigGee Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:15 am

That Ritchie Simpson at FH for Scotland looks a decent prospect. Not even in the academy but has come through that other well known centre of excellence at Ayshire Bulls!

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:25 am

BigGee wrote:That Ritchie Simpson at FH for Scotland looks a decent prospect. Not even in the academy but has come through that other well known centre of excellence at Ayshire Bulls!

It's between him and the Scottish openside for motm so far. Really massive shift in momentum because Scotland were pulled apart early doors but have dominated since.

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Post by BigGee Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:54 am

Well we just got pipped by England in the U20s, but what a performance our kids put up. Definitely some great potential for the future there. A young team as well, with a lot of them back next year,

Is Ritchie Simpson the coming Scottish FH, he really looked the part today.

McConnell, Tait, Blyth-Rafferty, Yule, Brown, all looked really comfortable at this level.

Let's hope we can back it up next week against Wales, that may prove to be our most winnable game!

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Post by RDW Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:55 am

Where have these players even been playing rugby lately? Super 6 ended several months ago.

Remarkable effort!

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Post by BigGee Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:57 am

RDW wrote:Where have these players even been playing rugby lately? Super 6 ended several months ago.

Remarkable effort!


A lot of them are not even playing Super 6!

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Post by George Carlin Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:07 pm

BigGee wrote:Well we just got pipped by England in the U20s, but what a performance our kids put up. Definitely some great potential for the future there. A young team as well, with a lot of them back next year,

Is Ritchie Simpson the coming Scottish FH, he really looked the part today.

McConnell, Tait, Blyth-Rafferty, Yule, Brown, all looked really comfortable at this level.

Let's hope we can back it up next week against Wales, that may prove to be our most winnable game!
I'n going to try and find that game because the commentators were raving about it.
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Post by Anglobraveheart Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:22 pm

George Carlin wrote:
BigGee wrote:Well we just got pipped by England in the U20s, but what a performance our kids put up. Definitely some great potential for the future there. A young team as well, with a lot of them back next year,

Is Ritchie Simpson the coming Scottish FH, he really looked the part today.

McConnell, Tait, Blyth-Rafferty, Yule, Brown, all looked really comfortable at this level.

Let's hope we can back it up next week against Wales, that may prove to be our most winnable game!
I'n going to try and find that game because the commentators were raving about it.

You'll find it on iPlayer GC. The youngsters looked really promising thumbsup

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Post by NeilyBroon Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:43 pm

I have to say it was the best performance by a Scottish u20 side since the golden generation. We had some really good u18s relatively recently, could it be them coming through?

Gives me some hope!

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Post by Anglobraveheart Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:59 pm

Absolutely Neilly.
I haven't seen the first half (which I understand was a slow start for us) but the players looked capable and up for it. They will hone their attacking edge as they progress through the tournament, and the scramble defence was something to behold.
You could see that they were focused and committed. This could be our next special generation thumbsup

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Post by jimbopip Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:51 pm

Tom English on the BBC website page intersocialmedia net thing spoils his otherwise enjoyable article with this gem,

Simon Berghan, two starts for Edinburgh since last April, is his understudy. That's a red flag on Scotland's hopes right there.

I wonder if he's related to the Simon Berghan who's been playing for Glasgow?

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Post by bsando Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:04 am

jimbopip wrote:Tom English on the BBC website page intersocialmedia net thing spoils his otherwise enjoyable article with this gem,

Simon Berghan, two starts for Edinburgh since last April, is his understudy. That's a red flag on Scotland's hopes right there.

I wonder if he's related to the Simon Berghan who's been playing for Glasgow?

That is a shocker. He's spread too thin with the coverage of football and rugby and twitter haha

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Post by tigertattie Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:34 am

Well that’s it.

That bloody hype train will be starting its engines

And folk will be coming out to say Toonie is the best coach ever and needs a contract extension to the 2027 word cup
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Post by NeilyBroon Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:35 am

Once again, I am glad to be shut up by Toonie and the team. That was sensational.

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Post by lostinwales Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:37 am

Well done Scotland. Very close game won on fine margins.

I hate rugby...

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