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England v Scotland 6N Championship Saturday 4th February 2023

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England v Scotland 6N Championship Saturday 4th February 2023 - Page 6 Empty England v Scotland 6N Championship Saturday 4th February 2023

Post by BigGee Sun 29 Jan 2023, 6:05 pm

First topic message reminder :

England v Scotland
Twickenham Stadium
London

Calcutta Cup & 6 Nations Championship

Saturday 4th February 2023

Kick Off - 16.45



Well here we go again, The Auld Enemies meet up in their first games of the 6N to play for the Calcutta Cup, just the same as last year, except at a different stadium.

Time was, Scotland rocking up at Twickenham was pretty much a certain defeat, but we have won and drawn on our last two trips down south, so maybe HQ does not hold the same fear for us as it once did.


First games of the 6N can of course be a bit of a lottery, when form goes out of the window. Both sides though, could only be described as having patchy form in the first place, with England playing badly enough in the autumn to manage to get their coach the sack and Scotland hardly setting the heather alight either. So a hard one to call.

England under a new coach, have everything to prove and the players have world cup squad places on their minds. A big ask for a new squad under new coaching to immediately get what the new regime wants straight away.

Scotland are perhaps a lot more settled than they have been arriving for recent tournaments and the polemic between the coach, Townsend and the star playmaker, Russell seems to have simmered right down and has the making of a fine romance at the moment, can't live with each other, can't live without. Townsend is also probably playing for his job as well, as his contract has not been renewed post WC either. He says he would consider staying on, but whether he gets the chance will likely depend on a very good tournament from this perennially under performing side, albeit one that can pull off big wins on their day.


Home advantage for this fixture is still massive though and Scotland's depth will be sorely tested going into the competition with some key injuries, so the bookies money probably still rests with England. A close and exciting game though hopefully and I have got a vested interest as I am going!


My guess at the Scotland team:

1. Schoeman
2. Brown
3. Nel
4. Gray R
5. Gilchrist
6. Ritchie - capt
7. Crosbie
8. Fagerson M
9. Horne
10. Russell
11. DVDM
12. Tuipolotu
13. Harris
14. Steyn
15. Kinghorn


Subs

Sutherland
Turner
Fagerson Z
Skinner
Watson
White
Jones H
Smith





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Post by Heaf Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:29 pm

How was he on his feet? This ref has only reffed one side at the breakdown. England still should have won with half decent defence ...

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:29 pm

Youngs' fault. We had possession twice and he kicked it straight to them. Ffs.

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Post by sensisball Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:31 pm

Ballsy finish from Scotland, best defensive effort for over a year, allied to a dangerous attack

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Post by tigertattie Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:31 pm

Geordie wrote:South Africa b win

No need to be bitter about it
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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:31 pm

Scotland probably just about deserved it though think England looked a bit better. If England want to win they need to ditch Smith and start Farrell or Ford.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:32 pm

Very well done to Scotland. They continue to have a hold over England. Defence the difference. Scotland's was strong. England's need a lot of work. Restarts as well were mostly poor from England. Scrum-half position obviously continues to be a huge concern - Youngs was dreadful off the bench - but England's attack did show some promise at various points.

Really liked the way Scotland played, plenty of ambition and energy, topped off with some nice tries.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:33 pm

Well played Scotland a deserved win/ today.
Lets hope for Englad;s sake ot is the last hame they loode this +mations.

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:33 pm

Well there’s never a lack of drama as a Scotland fan! Great win, hopefully Gregor keeps with this picking form players idea.

I thought England looked very good in large parts but issues with defensive alignment that will get sorted pretty quickly. Few more games together and you’ll be in a good place

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Post by Geordie Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:33 pm

tigertattie wrote:
Geordie wrote:South Africa b win

No need to be bitter about it

Not bitter...you cant win games with a defence like that.

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Post by miltonkeynesengland Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:34 pm

Scotland deserved the win. Eng had chances and blew them eg several line outs, giving away turn overs in Scotland 22. I do increasingly think the URC prepares players better for int rugby than the premiership

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Post by BamBam Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:34 pm

Well done Scotland. Took your chances, I was worried every time they had the ball in our half and Duhan is a monster

We looked threatening but Youngs kicking the ball away twice within 25m was just criminal. Even the pen advantage was just an absolute nonsense kick straight through the goalposts. Our chances went with JVP

The attack was promising but defence needs some work. Ben Curry can’t start at openside if he’s missing those tackles

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Post by bsando Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:36 pm

Unbelievable match!!! That was the best 6N game I have ever watched. Absolutely fantastic from both teams. Ritchie winning the turnover at the end was something out of a dream.

Commiserations England fans that was one heck of an effort and they made it such an incredible match with some absolutely fantastic tries of their own.

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Post by BigGee Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:38 pm

Did I ever mention that I have seen Scotland beat England at Twickenham twice!

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Post by Heaf Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:38 pm

Yes England should have scored more with the amount of possession and territory they had - that last turnover was a shocker though - can't be on your feet with your feet and knees behind your hips - especially compared the the earlier pen against Earls ...

Full credit to Scotland though for the ambition in attack and the defensive effort.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:39 pm

England had 70% territory and 57% possession...but England missed 15% of their tackles, Scotland 9%, and Scotland had 6 linebreaks to England's 2.

Good chance for Scotland to make it two wins from two next week.

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Post by Geordie Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:40 pm

BigGee wrote:Did I ever mention that I have seen Scotland beat England at Twickenham twice!

Well...Saffa B Wink

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Post by Yoda Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:40 pm

bsando wrote:Unbelievable match!!! That was the best 6N game I have ever watched. Absolutely fantastic from both teams. Ritchie winning the turnover at the end was something out of a dream.

Commiserations England fans that was one heck of an effort and they made it such an incredible match with some absolutely fantastic tries of their own.

Thank you very gracious. Let's hope our respective idiots don't start stinking out the internet forum. Somehow I doubt it!

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Post by Heaf Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:41 pm

Scotland now need to back it up and I think they have a good chance to do so next week ...

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Post by mountain man Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:42 pm

Seriously who thought Young's should be playing for England?
Absolutely awful. Truly awful.

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Post by Heaf Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:43 pm

I've not been one to bash Youngs before but we seemed to slow down noticeably after he came on ... and some of the kicking away of possession made me scratch my head.

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Post by Scottrf Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:48 pm

Excellent performance by Scotland.

Some promising elements for England but worrying individual errors in defence.

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Post by Scottrf Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:49 pm

Heaf wrote:Scotland now need to back it up and I think they have a good chance to do so next week ...
They should do, a home game and Wales are playing some sort of 2015 All Stars team.

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Post by mountain man Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:51 pm

Scotland were superb but as before England gifted it. Daft pens, missed tackles and kicking away possession 10 metres from try line. Young's. FFS 🤬

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Post by tigertattie Sat 04 Feb 2023, 6:53 pm

Yoda wrote:
bsando wrote:Unbelievable match!!! That was the best 6N game I have ever watched. Absolutely fantastic from both teams. Ritchie winning the turnover at the end was something out of a dream.

Commiserations England fans that was one heck of an effort and they made it such an incredible match with some absolutely fantastic tries of their own.

Thank you very gracious. Let's hope our respective idiots don't start stinking out the internet forum. Somehow I doubt it!

I don’t think many could complain about England. I felt it was a good performance and tactically things made sense. It’s thier first run out with Borthwick who has changed the way England play. England just came up against a Scotland team that wanted to win and not kick the ball away (no Ali price in team) and Duhan was in the mood to run!
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Post by Heaf Sat 04 Feb 2023, 7:02 pm

Could I just ask - please don't break Ben White ...

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 04 Feb 2023, 7:06 pm

Great, England lost. Now Trev can shhh about Wales.

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Post by yappysnap Sat 04 Feb 2023, 7:16 pm

Positives for England our attack looked very good for the first time in years.

Negatives the defence just so poor, and please no more Youngs! His england days must be over by now.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Sat 04 Feb 2023, 7:25 pm

Early days, but is SB transforming England from a bit of a pub side into a schoolboys one? Excitement is all well and good but think I'd prefer the win myself. I'm beginning to think that maybe we just don't have the quality players required to win stuff and will have to get increasing use to mid table at best. Oh and well done Scotland.
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Post by Geordie Sat 04 Feb 2023, 7:32 pm

Overall...

Englands attack showed glimpses of some potentially very impressive attack....the future couldcbecvery bright...

Defence....some glaring lapses which caused the tries. This will improve as the players SB wants in are available like Kelly etc...and once players get with the system. And once SB and KS have grIlled everyone who was on the pitch Laugh

In all honesty I feel more confident from that performance than I have from a load of Eddie's last games. We will improve massively over this 6n alone....

No more Youngs
Chessum fantastic
Still think Itojes position in danger
Bring in Ted Hill !

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Post by Yoda Sat 04 Feb 2023, 7:36 pm

Haven't seen the game so can't comment too much. When you have game breakers like vdm and Finn Russell they make the difference. The England combinations are new, apart from Farrell smith axis. Back row never played played together along with second row, back three so we should have expected mistakes. As for Young's surely his course has run, great servant but by the sounds of it should be put out to pasture.

Fair play Scotland for not bottling it and you have to wrap vdm and Russell in cotton wool throughout the tournament. Looking forward to next week already!

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 04 Feb 2023, 7:43 pm

What was the mist upsetting about to days loss the score line or the oerformance?

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Post by BamBam Sat 04 Feb 2023, 7:47 pm

Put the bottle down maj

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 04 Feb 2023, 7:51 pm

Ba

NmBam wrote:
Put the bottle down maj

Not had a drink yet.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 04 Feb 2023, 8:04 pm

Just back from watching with my club.  This was real exciting and down to the wire.    Great effort and drive by Scotland.  Applied pressure and got what they earned.  4 more wins?

Thought virtually the entire Scotland back line ran circles around their England counterparts, were clearly the better group.  Richie Gray is a stud (even though he spells Grey wrong), Jamie Ritchie too.  

For England, Smith tried to do too much whilst Farrell did too little.  Malins simply cannot play defense.  I don't care how many tries he scores (especially when both were table-set for him), if a player cannot play defense, good-bye.  Youngs is another discussion which should start with 'why?'.  Ben Curry, too. Dombrandt was very up and down and for a while I was wondering if he is losing his spot in the squad.

And, if we park all of that mediocrity, Mr. Borthwick, the guru of the lineout who swore it was priority one, please let's not screw up another lineout from 5 or 6 yards out at the end of a game.  Scotland defended it great, but England gave then the opportunity to tear through the maul like they were rag dolls.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 04 Feb 2023, 8:22 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
Ba NmBam wrote:Put the bottle down maj

Not had a drink yet.

So what’s your favourite drink maj? Just for future reference. You never know, we could one day be in Cardiff at the same time.

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Post by Geordie Sat 04 Feb 2023, 8:29 pm

Doc....Scotland are a well drilled sIde...England arec11 days in wIth lots of Injuries to players who probably would have made quite a difference like Slade, Kelly,

And

Ted Hill

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 04 Feb 2023, 9:00 pm

Geordie wrote:Doc....Scotland are a well drilled sIde...England arec11 days in wIth lots of Injuries to players who probably would have made quite a difference like Slade,  Kelly,

And

Ted Hill
Ted Hill, of course! To your point an England back row of Hill (Ted), Ludlum, Dombrandt would have been much better. I expect Borthwick and the team to need time to bed in (metaphorically speaking), but failure to execute a lineout with the game on the line and a mostly seasoned pack? aaarrgh. phooey. stinko.

And, to think, I was going to sacrifice a virgin last night to help the just cause. Unfortunately, I couldn't find one who wouldn't charge me $20.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 04 Feb 2023, 9:26 pm

Wow. Pretty awful that. Hope that's the last we see of a few of the players now. Really surprised at some of the switches. Really solidified Scotlands win. Just shouldn't have happened.

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Post by Geordie Sat 04 Feb 2023, 9:29 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Geordie wrote:Doc....Scotland are a well drilled sIde...England arec11 days in wIth lots of Injuries to players who probably would have made quite a difference like Slade,  Kelly,

And

Ted Hill
Ted Hill, of course!  To your point an England back row of Hill (Ted), Ludlum, Dombrandt would have been much better.   I expect Borthwick and the team to need time to bed in (metaphorically speaking), but failure to execute a lineout with the game on the line and a mostly seasoned pack?  aaarrgh.  phooey.  stinko.  

And, to think, I was going to sacrifice a virgin last night to help the just cause.  Unfortunately, I couldn't find one who wouldn't charge me $20.    

Ah I do jest about Hill. Though yes I'd select him.

But England just need time to bed in.
Did losing to Scotland 3 games on the trot hurt....hell yeah...but I'd be more worried if I was Scotland.
They're well down the path and only just beat us...due to lapse in defence from a team that has been under new coaching staff for 11 days. And Farrell missed kicks.

We'll improve dramatically...I cant see Scotland improving much more....

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Post by Geordie Sat 04 Feb 2023, 9:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wow. Pretty awful that. Hope that's the last we see of a few of the players now. Really surprised at some of the switches. Really solidified Scotlands win. Just shouldn't have happened.

Who do you want out

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 04 Feb 2023, 9:35 pm

Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Wow. Pretty awful that. Hope that's the last we see of a few of the players now. Really surprised at some of the switches. Really solidified Scotlands win. Just shouldn't have happened.

Who do you want out

I thought Curry was dreadful and couldn't believe he remained on when Dombrandt went off. I was surprised Malins remained on. 2 tries which you would expect to be made but then looked iffy and a bit lazy in defence, when he did get the ball looked unthreatening. Marchant still not offering much in either track or defence the intro of Lawrence seemed far too late. I was scratching my head at the subs around those players as it just didn't make sense; stats or pre planned, just didn't seem based on the game I was matching. Am I allowed to mention that while winning by 1 point a guy came on the stop our momentum dead. Not even going to name him.

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat 04 Feb 2023, 9:53 pm

Some things I noticed today...

1. Ludlam was fantastic. He linked well, tackled like a demon and was difficult to stop.
2. Chessum played far better thn Itoje did, who, aside from his usual penalties, was a bit "meh".
3. Ben Curry played well in attack, but some of his missed tackles were unforgivable. Maybe he was a bit "Rabbit in the headlights"?
4. It looks like, when coupled with Dan Cole, that Mako is able to finally scrummage. I've always been a bit hard on him (for good reason) but it seems that he's forgotten how to keep his face out of the dirt!
5. The Smith/Farrell axis looked better today. If Dan Kelly's fit next week though, it should be Farrell at 10 and Smith on the bench. Provided Farrell brings his kicking boots this time.
6. There are defensive issues (no surprise with just 11 days to learn it).
7. OHC made a couple of balls-ups. That said he was ok. He'll be back, and a will hopefully be a bit better.
8. Ben Youngs, based on his performance today, should never play for England again. The pace of delivery went down by about 75% when he came on, and then he twice kicked away possession straight to Scotland unnecessarily. If we'd have kept the ball in play the chances are we'd be nearer to a score as we were starting to penetrate to Scottish defence (see Genge's try). It was close, sure, but I believe we had that game up until he came on. Sure, JVP made a couple of errors, but they were small and didn't directly affect the game...
9. Lineout needs work. Come on Borthwick - you can do better.
10.Jamie George needed a rest at 60 minutes...

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Post by mountain man Sat 04 Feb 2023, 10:02 pm

Pretty much agree with Mr Bounce there.
Still don't think Farrell is a 12. Smith best game for England for a long time
Don't think OHC did much to be honest.
Ludlum really good
Itoje still not player he used to be.

How anyone can still contemplate Young's ever playing again for England is beyond me. All those who said should be in 23 I'd love to hear your thoughts!

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 04 Feb 2023, 10:14 pm

Does amy one truly think/believe yjay Smith at 10 Farrell aya12 is actualy working in England's favour?

I am not so ure to be honest. maybe play Farrell at 10 12 ? Marchant 13Snith on the bench against Italy see what fiferenc that make to England#s style of play.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 04 Feb 2023, 10:23 pm

I think Amy is a pretty good judge yes.

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Post by Geordie Sat 04 Feb 2023, 10:34 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Wow. Pretty awful that. Hope that's the last we see of a few of the players now. Really surprised at some of the switches. Really solidified Scotlands win. Just shouldn't have happened.

Who do you want out

I thought Curry was dreadful and couldn't believe he remained on when Dombrandt went off. I was surprised Malins remained on. 2 tries which you would expect to be made but then looked iffy and a bit lazy in defence, when he did get the ball looked unthreatening. Marchant still not offering much in either track or defence the intro of Lawrence seemed far too late. I was scratching my head at the subs around those players as it just didn't make sense; stats or pre planned, just didn't seem based on the game I was matching. Am I allowed to mention that while winning by 1 point a guy came on the stop our momentum dead. Not even going to name him.

Agree about Curry....he had a bad day.
Agree about Malins....thnk Murley would have scored those and defended way better
Marchant...maybe Eddie was right playing him on the wing

Where was Ted Hill ha ha ha ha ha

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat 04 Feb 2023, 10:34 pm

The Smith/Farrell axis was what Borthwick was forced into thanks to unexpected injuries. If Dan Kelly's back to full fitness, I expect him at 12. It's otherwise a stopgap.

Incidentally, Farrell has played about half of his caps as an inside centre. Quite impressive for someone who isn't a 12.


Last edited by Mr Bounce on Sat 04 Feb 2023, 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Geordie Sat 04 Feb 2023, 10:39 pm

What isxup with Itoje? Missingvthecright guy next to him? Or is the back Rowan issue also.


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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 04 Feb 2023, 10:44 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think Amy is a pretty good judge yes.

WHO?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 04 Feb 2023, 10:51 pm

I agree.

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