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Ireland v England 18&19 March - Grand Slam opportunities

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Ireland v England 18&19 March - Grand Slam opportunities Empty Ireland v England 18&19 March - Grand Slam opportunities

Post by Pot Hale Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 2:28

Ireland are going for Grand Slam wins on Saturday and Sunday this weekend with the seniors and U20s lining out in Dublin and Cork to face England.

After the slew of injuries in the Scotland, Ireland were looking at being down a good few players for their final match.

Bealham, Beirne, Henderson, McCarthy and Ringrose are all definitely out of the reckoning.  Rónan Kelleher may join them.   Sheehan and Doris might recover sufficiently from their knocks to be named in the squad.

Team named at 3.30pm Irish time.  

Porter, Sheehan, Furlong, Ryan, Baird, O'Mahony, Van der Flier, Doris
Gibson-Park, Sexton, Lowe, Aki, Henshaw, Hansen, Keenan
R: Herring, Healy, O'Toole, Treadwell, Conan, Murray, Byrne, O'Brien

England looking to change up things from their 23 last Saturday with Owen Farrell starting at 10, alongside Manu Tuilagi in midfield.  

Genge, George, Kyle Sinckler, Itoje, Ribbans, Ludlam, Willis, Dombrandt
Steward, Watson, Slade, Tuilagi. Arundell, Farrell, van Poortvliet
R: Walker, Vunipola, Cole, Isiekwe, Curry, Mitchell, Smith, Marchant.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 8:07

With the wallowing after the France match it's past me by that this is Sexton's last game for Ireland in the 6Ns too.

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Post by mountain man Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 8:10

No 7&1/2 wrote:With the wallowing after the France match it's past me by that this is Sexton's last game for Ireland in the 6Ns too.

Let's hope his day is spoilt by an England victory then.

Unfortunately cannot see that happening, unless something goes desperately wrong Ireland are winning Grand Slam.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 8:25

Malins hattrick. We win 15 nil as Farrell is taking the kicks. Written in the stars.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 8:54

No 7&1/2 wrote:Malins hattrick. We win 15 nil as Farrell is taking the kicks. Written in the stars.

More chance of this than Willis having a good game to be fair.......Ireland are a fair bit better than Italy Wink

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 9:00

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Malins hattrick. We win 15 nil as Farrell is taking the kicks. Written in the stars.

More chance of this than Willis having a good game to be fair.......Ireland are a fair bit better than Italy Wink


Best flanker we have after Tom Curry.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 9:04

Can't see past a 15-20pt Ireland win at the very least.

I think it might be long afternoon for you English guys (I've recently assumed my father's nationality and now see myself as a proud Irishman).

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 9:07

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Malins hattrick. We win 15 nil as Farrell is taking the kicks. Written in the stars.

More chance of this than Willis having a good game to be fair.......Ireland are a fair bit better than Italy Wink


Best flanker we have after Tom Curry.

Yea, he's been putting in some real impressive showings to be fair. I really enjoyed his 3 missed tackles and 6m made last week.......

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 9:16

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Malins hattrick. We win 15 nil as Farrell is taking the kicks. Written in the stars.

More chance of this than Willis having a good game to be fair.......Ireland are a fair bit better than Italy Wink


Best flanker we have after Tom Curry.

Yea, he's been putting in some real impressive showings to be fair. I really enjoyed his 3 missed tackles and 6m made last week.......

Hey we can go round and round, you're still wrong!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 9:19

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Malins hattrick. We win 15 nil as Farrell is taking the kicks. Written in the stars.

More chance of this than Willis having a good game to be fair.......Ireland are a fair bit better than Italy Wink


Best flanker we have after Tom Curry.

Yea, he's been putting in some real impressive showings to be fair. I really enjoyed his 3 missed tackles and 6m made last week.......

Hey we can go round and round, you're still wrong!

Haven't a different (and better) opinion is not being wrong young smoggie.....

I'll do a deal with you to put this to bed......Willis is our 2nd best flanker if Malins is our 2nd best winger....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 9:20

Malins was the second best English winger last Saturday so deal. And I'm classing Arundell as a full back in that!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 9:27

Haha....and Willis was the 2nd best flanker last weekend....I'm classing Ludlam as an 8! Got there in the end...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 9:30

Fair enough. Ludlam was giving too many pens away for me.

Serious question though, seen a few people say Ludlam for 8, perhaps from the existing squad; but would you see him as an international 8 post this set of games?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 9:38

The little effect that Dombradnt is having on games, I don't think Ludlam at 8 would be an awful call really. It would allow us to play 2 abrasive flankers....like Curry and Pearson/Hill etc. This could compensate somewhat for the 2 athletic locks?

It's finding a balance I guess...not something we have currently.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 9:57

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The little effect that Dombradnt is having on games, I don't think Ludlam at 8 would be an awful call really. It would allow us to play 2 abrasive flankers....like Curry and Pearson/Hill etc. This could compensate somewhat for the 2 athletic locks?

It's finding a balance I guess...not something we have currently.

It was a pretty decent balance in the first 3. Aberration vs France. Interesting choice coming up, I wouldn't be surprised to see him go Martin, Willis and Dombrandt for Saturday. Could be a whole host of changes. Cole to be stuck on 99 caps?

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Post by mountain man Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 10:06

I'd be surprised if Dombrandt in team for Saturday, he looked out of depth big time. Shame as I rate him and had always championed him for England but not making it at present. Maybe a summer in the gym will help, he looks a bit "soft".
At 8 I think of who's in squad has to be Ludlam. Give Earl another shot at 7, as for 6 dunno. Willis I like but he was also over whelmed last week. Be a big call to start Martin but got nothing to lose.(I'm assuming he can play 6?).

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Post by Recwatcher16 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 10:40

The usual last England game of the 6N, away from home with a SH ref but at least there is nothing riding on it and the ref is SA, rather than the one of the other lot - might be a small chance to play the role of party gate crasher.

Surely England will target the 13 channel, as Henshaw has been out for quite a while and not his natural position. Straws and clutching probably come to mind.

I don't understand why defending teams are not running into these dummy runners who are in front of the ball and forcing the ref to make decisions on obstruction and it also creates doubt in the timing of these runs by the Irish runners. That's what happened fifteen odd years ago when the ABs used this tactic and they dropped the tactic quite quickly when it got exposed.

Focus is on Sexton's last 6N game but could also be for a few English players too, post RWC, which will surely quietly steel one or two of them. Big game for Borthwick.

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Post by mountain man Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 10:51

France were miles better than England so regardless of decisions France were so far ahead. However, and I emphasize this is not sour grapes but O'Keefe made so many decisions against Eng it was poor. How neck rolls werent picked up by him or TMO I don't know. Anyway, made no difference to result.

Peyper I think a better ref but all we can hope for is a game not decided by officials. This applies to every match.

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Post by Yoda Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 11:16

mountain man wrote:France were miles better than England so regardless of decisions France were so far ahead. However, and I emphasize this is not sour grapes but O'Keefe made so many decisions against Eng it was poor. How neck rolls werent picked up by him or TMO I don't know. Anyway, made no difference to result.

Peyper I think a better ref but all we can hope for is a game not decided by officials. This applies to every match.

Blimey o'keefe will have nightmares if you say he's worse than peyper. Thought he reffed well sat, just a bit soft on France swinging around the side of rucks but most of the time it was due to England being soft. It's not like we didn't have field position, we just kept dropping it or falling over like sacks of potatoes.

Easy Ireland victory for me and wrapped up by half time too. We might score a couple of tries and that will be our ceiling.

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Post by Recwatcher16 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 11:19

I was making no reference to the previous game only the consistent history of England's last game in the 6N with a SH ref and England's subsequent consistent poor record, regardless of how well they are playing. It's just a noticeable trend.

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Post by mountain man Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 11:21

Yeah I can't see anything other than a convincing Irish win. As I say, decisions ultimately made no difference but France definitely got more than rub of green but that happens when a team is so much better.

No-one is giving England a hope this weekend which is probably realistic so hopefully they can show some fight, score a few good tries and as long as they play for 80 and never give up that's all you can do.

If beaten by a better side there's no shame in that.

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Post by Heaf Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 11:52

England were soft but O'Keefe let France do what they liked at the breakdown - hands on floor, not releasing tackled player etc .... but I'm more concerned at who the TMO is Shocked

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 12:09

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough. Ludlam was giving too many pens away for me.

Serious question though, seen a few people say Ludlam for 8, perhaps from the existing squad; but would you see him as an international 8 post this set of games?
Agree Ludlum gave away too many pens. Who knows whether that was part of the general malaise (understated term, but wanted to use a term with French lineage) or something else. But yes, I could see him as an international 8. And is used there by Saints when Augustus is out and will be when Augustus moves back to SA to join the Boks.

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Post by Duty281 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 12:25

It seems set to be an unusually dull final week in the Six Nations.

Ireland, France and Scotland all at home and all big favourites for their respective games. No drama around the title or wooden spoon.

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Post by Maine man Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 12:37


Possible Ireland team according to the Indo (v England): H Keenan; M Hansen, R Henshaw, B Aki, J Lowe; J Sexton (capt), J Gibson-Park; A Porter, D Sheehan, T Furlong; R Baird, J Ryan; P O’Mahony, J van der Flier, C Doris. Reps: R Herring, C Healy, T O’Toole, K Treadwell, J Conan, C Murray, R Byrne, J O’Brien/S McCloskey.

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Post by majesticimperialman Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 13:46

So final week end Irekabd going for the Grand Slam,
Well i do hope England gp top Ireland and put in the best performance ever and stop Ireland from getting rge Grand Slam. Lets hope so for Englands sake,

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Post by king_carlos Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 13:48

Rumours I'm seeing are:

- Farrell to start
- Arundell for Malins
- Ribbans replacing injured Chessum
- Manu into the centres alongside Slade

I'm not seeing any rumours around the front and back row which may suggest the same 3 in both. Personally I think that would be an error, particularly in the back row.

Announcement at 5pm I believe.

mountain man - Martin has played most his senior rugby at 6 prior to a recent but really impressive shift back to lock for Tigers. Earl got released earlier in the week though.

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Post by Collapse2005 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 14:21

Sexton Gets Grand Slam Tattoo on his head

Ireland v England 18&19 March - Grand Slam opportunities Shutte10


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Post by Pete330v2 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 14:21

majesticimperialman wrote:So final week end Irekabd going for the Grand Slam,
Well i do hope England gp top Ireland and put in the best performance ever and stop Ireland from getting rge  Grand Slam. Lets hope so for Englands sake,

Say again ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 14:39

Didn't think O'Keefe was bad last game. Few errors but the England team just didn't turn up. He could have sent 2 French players off for looking at him funny and we'd still have lost.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 15:39

Ireland: Keenan; Hansen, Henshaw, Aki, Lowe; Sexton (capt), Gibson-Park; Porter, Sheehan, Furlong; Baird, Ryan; O'Mahony, van der Flier, Doris.

Replacements: Herring, Healy, O'Toole, Treadwell, Conan, Murray, R Byrne, O'Brien.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 16:03

Ireland as expected with the injuries basically. Sheehan and Doris being fit the main news there. As we knew it is a very good 23.

I've said it before but their second row strength with Bierne and Henderson missing is incredible. I really think Baird could be world class in a few years.

JGP is a big returnee to the starting XV for them too. He's a step above Murray these days.

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Post by Collapse2005 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 16:14

Yeah its a formidable team. Confident enough we will get the win.

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Post by carpet baboon Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 16:24

Is McCloskey injured?

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 16:40

carpet baboon wrote:Is McCloskey injured?

No - he is fit and was available.
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Post by the-goon2 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 16:44

I think he just wasn't selected. Aki is his backup centre, and without Ringrose, there is no back 3 cover on the pitch so can't afford a pure centre on the bench. I think it's just bad luck really, but he more than played his part this year.


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Post by Collapse2005 Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 17:03

England rugby team news for Ireland

15. Freddie Steward
14. Anthony Watson
13. Henry Slade
12. Manu Tuilagi
11. Henry Arundell
10. Owen Farrell (C)
9. Jack van Poortvliet
1. Ellis Genge (VC)
2. Jamie George
3. Kyle Sinckler
4. Maro Itoje
5. David Ribbans
6. Lewis Ludlam (VC)
7. Jack Willis
8. Alex Dombrandt

Replacements

16. Jack Walker 17. Mako Vunipola 18. Dan Cole 19. Nick Isiekwe 20. Ben Curry 21. Alex Mitchell 22. Marcus Smith 23. Joe Marchant

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Post by mountain man Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 17:09

Blimey. Didn't think we'd get same 9 or back row. Slade a lucky boy to be starting. Oh well, here's hoping.

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Post by dummy_half Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 17:25

mountain man wrote:Blimey. Didn't think we'd get same 9 or back row. Slade a lucky boy to be starting. Oh well, here's hoping.

I think some of that is more through a lack of options rather than anything else. Given who is fit, we were likely either either Farrell - Manu - Slade or Smith - Farrell - Manu in midfield, nd on balance I prefer this option.

Ribbans in the 2nd row should give a bit more power, but the back row an definitely feel lucky to all still be there for this week aftern being handed their backsides last week. I do think Ireland will be easier to defend against than France, who were brilliant at off loading and supporting the ball carrier last week, keeping their attacking ball alive rather than fighting for it on the floor. They only competed for England ball, and did that very effectively.

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Post by carpet baboon Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 18:02

Personally would have rather had McCloskey and henshaw in the centres. Aki won't let us down but I for me I think stu had earned the 12 shirt and should have kept it.


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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 19:28

If JvP kicks or hesitates like last week we will get slaughtered. He was the worst player on the pitch, probably slower than Youngs, how he can start again is beyond my understanding. Mitchell when he came on brought pace to the game and when he kicked it was contestable not 5m or 40 m like JvP.

I can't see anything but a thrashing. Donkey Dombrandt, Jack van Poorgame, Owing England a decent game Farrell, Henry Slate ( just as flakey)
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 20:36

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:If JvP kicks or hesitates like last week we will get slaughtered. He was the worst player on the pitch, probably slower than Youngs, how he can start again is beyond my understanding. Mitchell when he came on brought pace to the game and when he kicked it was contestable not 5m or 40 m like JvP.

I can't see anything but a thrashing. Donkey Dombrandt, Jack van Poorgame, Owing England a decent game Farrell, Henry Slate ( just as flakey)

Totally agree on JVP, he was really bad....but he did get a really bad platform. He does seem to have some real stinkers but he's still young and playing behind a struggling pack is a good learning experience.

I would like the balance of Mitchell/Farrell actually but this chopping and changing does nobody any favours.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 20:46

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:If JvP kicks or hesitates like last week we will get slaughtered. He was the worst player on the pitch,

Was he? He got mullered at the back of the ruck when France turned it on in the first half. In the second half we started well and JVP suddenly upped the tempo. Mitchell came on fresh and upped it again, for about five minutes. We scored France woke back up and then Mitchell was only noticeable when costing the team 14 points.

I said after the game last weekend and I'll say it again now. Waste of time trying evaluate the halfbacks when the pack is getting completely dominated up front.

It's why I feel a bit sorry for Smith, he did nothing particularly wrong last weekend but is getting benched for Farrell who's been mediocre for most of the tournament.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 20:53

C'mon Sam.....JVP was bad. He's getting some slack but he had a real stinker!

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 16 Mar 2023 - 21:05

Sgt_Pooly wrote:C'mon Sam.....JVP was bad. He's getting some slack but he had a real stinker!

and Mitchell cost us 14 points. Hence my point about trying to judge halfbacks behind a pack in retreat. You just aren't going to look good.

Doesn't help that the opposition is a) given an armchair ride and b) the best scrum half in the world by a distance and several leagues above anyone we can field at the moment.

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Post by Sharkey06 Fri 17 Mar 2023 - 9:36

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:C'mon Sam.....JVP was bad. He's getting some slack but he had a real stinker!

and Mitchell cost us 14 points. Hence my point about trying to judge halfbacks behind a pack in retreat. You just aren't going to look good.

Doesn't help that the opposition is a) given an armchair ride and b) the best scrum half in the world by a distance and several leagues above anyone we can field at the moment.

When JVP came on in the summer tests in Australia to replace a ponderous Youngs, he seemed to be coming on with real purpose and injecting pace.  Roll forwards 8 months, when Mitchell comes on to replace a ponderous JVP, he seems to be coming on with real purpose and injecting pace.  So we are rotating the players, but with the same result.  That suggests that whichever scrumhalf starts the game, is playing to a game plan of box kicking the ball as often as possible and delivering slow slow ball, whereas the scrumhalf coming on has license to play heads up quick rugby.  It seems to be a coach issue rather than a player issue.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 17 Mar 2023 - 9:47

Think JVP was sold a pup in terms of how the team were clearing out. There's been a couple of pieces of analysis on France and how they roll away into the path of oncoming opposition players, but they generally get away with it. Genge did raise it during the match but you just wonder how on top the new coaching team are with their anlaysis of other teams (lack of time to be 100% there) and thus how much they can plant the question in the refs mind.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 17 Mar 2023 - 12:23

For me the thing about JvP is whether the big games, or rather, the (increasing number of) games where England are second best up front or in the mid-field, on attack or defense, are too much for him. Or whether still part of his development process. Certainly has the raw skills and being young he has time to fix his kicking and game management.

I think it is kind of unfair to judge an individual performance in such a total team collapse. But it seems pretty unanimous JvP was poor(er?), from people I respect like Ian McGeechan to other regular media types.

Ultimately, I am not sure either the previous or the current England set-up is good for developing 9s. Maybe they never had to.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 17 Mar 2023 - 13:10

Sharkey06 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:C'mon Sam.....JVP was bad. He's getting some slack but he had a real stinker!

and Mitchell cost us 14 points. Hence my point about trying to judge halfbacks behind a pack in retreat. You just aren't going to look good.

Doesn't help that the opposition is a) given an armchair ride and b) the best scrum half in the world by a distance and several leagues above anyone we can field at the moment.

When JVP came on in the summer tests in Australia to replace a ponderous Youngs, he seemed to be coming on with real purpose and injecting pace.  Roll forwards 8 months, when Mitchell comes on to replace a ponderous JVP, he seems to be coming on with real purpose and injecting pace.  So we are rotating the players, but with the same result.  That suggests that whichever scrumhalf starts the game, is playing to a game plan of box kicking the ball as often as possible and delivering slow slow ball, whereas the scrumhalf coming on has license to play heads up quick rugby.  It seems to be a coach issue rather than a player issue.

There could definitely be a game plan aspect but there's also the aspect of a fresh scrum half looking better when the opposition are tired and not contesting the ball at the breakdown as much or pressurising in defence as much.

How many times did Danny Care look a world beater off the bench only to be fairly average when he got a start for England?

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 18 Mar 2023 - 16:33

If my maths are correct Ireland just need a losing bp to win the championship. A four try bp wouldn’t necessarily suffice if we lose by more than 7. Obviously a grand slam is the only goal though.

Plenty for England to play for too. The chance to win more games than the last two campaigns a big carrot for them.

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