Ireland 2023/24 - RWC and Onwards

First topic message reminder :

So another season is over, and we're getting ready for Andy Farrell's announcement this coming week for his initial RWC squad that will be used in upcoming warm-up games against Italy (5 Aug) , England (19 Aug) both in Aviva, and then a whittled down finalised RWC squad to play Samoa in France on 26 Aug.

The U20s RWC kicks off in South Africa in July.

After Munster's well-deserved win against Stormers, Farrell & Co may have paused for thought as to who comes into the wider squad beyond the nailed-on members. The 42 man RWC Training Squad announced is:

Forwards (22)

Ryan Baird (Leinster/Dublin University)
Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers)
Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne)
Jack Conan (Leinster/Old Belvedere)
Gavin Coombes (Munster/Young Munster)
Caelan Doris (Leinster/St Mary’s College)
Tadhg Furlong (Leinster/Clontarf)
Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf)
Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy)
Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch)
Ronan Kelleher (Leinster/Lansdowne)
Dave Kilcoyne (Munster/UL Bohemians)
Joe McCarthy (Leinster/Dublin University)
Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution)
Tom O’Toole (Ulster/Ballynahinch)
Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD)
Cian Prendergast (Connacht/Corinthians)
James Ryan (Leinster/UCD)
Dan Sheehan (Leinster/Lansdowne)
Tom Stewart (Ulster/Ballynahinch)*
Kieran Treadwell (Ulster/Ballymena)
Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD)

Backs (20)

Bundee Aki (Connacht/Galwegians)
Caolin Blade (Connacht/Galwegians)
Ross Byrne (Leinster/UCD)
Craig Casey (Munster/Shannon)
Jack Crowley (Munster/Cork Constitution)
Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster)
Ciaran Frawley (Leinster/UCD)*
Jamison Gibson-Park (Leinster)
Mack Hansen (Connacht/Corinthians)
Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers)
Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD)
James Lowe (Leinster)
Stuart McCloskey (Ulster/Bangor)
Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen)
Calvin Nash (Munster/Young Munster)*
Jimmy O’Brien (Leinster/Naas)
Jamie Osborne (Leinster/Naas)*
Garry Ringrose (Leinster/UCD)
Jonathan Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College)
Jacob Stockdale (Ulster/Lurgan)

There is just something niggling at me that Italy will beat the AB's. I do not expect Italy to win but I do not think that they will get turned over by 30 plus.

It would be amazing if they did manage a win. Id say it would be the biggest upset over NZ since they lost to Rhodesia in 1949. Now would be as good a time as any though. Would be great for Ireland too.

Considering NZ would exit at the group stage for the first time if it happened, and Italy would get into the KO stages for the first time, I'd say it would rival Japan/SA as the biggest RWC upset if Italy did manage to beat NZ.

Would love to see it happen, but nothing about Italy's recent form indicates an upset is even remotely likely.

Duty281 wrote:Considering NZ would exit at the group stage for the first time if it happened, and Italy would get into the KO stages for the first time, I'd say it would rival Japan/SA as the biggest RWC upset if Italy did manage to beat NZ.

Would love to see it happen, but nothing about Italy's recent form indicates an upset is even remotely likely.

Think SA still won their group that year didnt they? A draw might also be enough to knock NZ out as Italy would just need a losing BP v France or Italy could lose and deny NZ a 4 try BP could threaten to KO NZ too if Italy beat France.

I am not so convinced that Italy's form is that bad and they do have the ability to pull off an absolute shock.

Would be great if you are right, though imagine if Italy went on to win the group and Ireland then got France or NZ and SA got Italy, that would irk.

Ah here now, surely that cannot happen... eek...

I live in hope though.

For me, the AB's are still as good as they were, its just other teams are catching up to them. Sort of like the tallest boy in school at 10 but by 14 same size as the rest.

I doubt Italy will get within 30 points of NZ. I know the All Blacks have regressed, but they’re not that bad!

Well now, could not have been more wrong with my feeling. That was some display by the AB's. Fearing the 1/4 curse may not be broken by Ireland this RWC...

It's all a bit rock paper scissors. The AB's have the type of game that always hammers the likes of Italy. No game against the AB's is ever easy but they don't come across as being on the level of some of their predecessors and this Irish team is ranked 1 for a reason.

NZ look poor when playing SA, France and Ireland. They look as though they can soundly beat everyone else. They don’t look as strong up front compared to previous All Blacks. They’re very reliant on Retallick and Barrett being available, otherwise they really struggle against the others from the top 4.

I actually think Italy's defended poorly. As a neutral I don't think that win will bother Ireland to much.

I'd still fancy Ireland in that Qtr based on what I have seen so far.

I thought Italy were utter tripe - worse performance in the World Cup so far (when compared against what each side is actually capable of)

New Zealand had some fun and no doubt gained some confidence but they were not tested at all

So the aftermath.
Lowe had a swollen eye (I think he can thank VDF for that) and couldn't open it at halftime. Apparently it was starting to look/feel better after the match so hopefully he will be fine for next week.

Hansen passed his HIA but felt something in his calf as he went back on the pitch. No guesses yet on recovery.

Ryan aggravated his wrist injury he had picked up against South Africa, again it looks like a see what it's like on Monday

Also Earls has hamstring strain.

So that's potentially 3 wingers missing for next week plus Henshaw

We take for granted how good our travelling support is. The amount of Irish in the stadium last night beggars belief.

Humphries to take over from Nucifora in the overall tech director role.....
What are peoples thoughts?
What needs to be his priorities?

I see David Humphreys has been offered David Nucifora's role. Think he is currently working with the England cricket side. Good apointment.

Also with Andy Farrell likely to be the new Lions coach it might be a good opportunity to get another Irish coach involved.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Humphries to take over from Nucifora in the overall tech director role.....
What are peoples thoughts?
What needs to be his priorities?

Beat me to it.

Collapse2005 wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Humphries to take over from Nucifora in the overall tech director role.....
What are peoples thoughts?
What needs to be his priorities?

Beat me to it.

Lol.

I'd like to see mass improvement in the WXV. At the minute it's so far off the mark from being competitive that it needs a fundamental rethink. I also think you can't try and cover women's 7s a WXV on a single budget, it needs to develop into two sustainable areas of the game.

With clubs going pop in the UK, and the excess player pool being absorbed into the English and French top tier clubs, the available budgets to steal (or for agents to use the threat of moving away for money as a bargaining chip in negotiations.... how often was Drico and Heaslip rumoured to be moving abroad) players from our farm system and provincial sides should be diminished.

But that's reactionary stuff. How does he develop our talent pool better. How do we accelerate the development of the high skill players? How do we potentially take advantage of Farrell being Lions boss and picking the touring side to go out. That's like an Elite-elite level training camp so what next-gen talent do we want to learn in that environment?

Or does he just give Ulster 20 former bok NIQ contracts, packs up and heads out for an early lunch? (joking of course)

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Humphries to take over from Nucifora in the overall tech director role.....
What are peoples thoughts?
What needs to be his priorities?

Beat me to it.

Lol.

I'd like to see mass improvement in the WXV. At the minute it's so far off the mark from being competitive that it needs a fundamental rethink. I also think you can't try and cover women's 7s a WXV on a single budget, it needs to develop into two sustainable areas of the game.

With clubs going pop in the UK, and the excess player pool being absorbed into the English and French top tier clubs, the available budgets to steal (or for agents to use the threat of moving away for money as a bargaining chip in negotiations.... how often was Drico and Heaslip rumoured to be moving abroad) players from our farm system and provincial sides should be diminished.

But that's reactionary stuff. How does he develop our talent pool better. How do we accelerate the development of the high skill players? How do we potentially take advantage of Farrell being Lions boss and picking the touring side to go out. That's like an Elite-elite level training camp so what next-gen talent do we want to learn in that environment?

Or does he just give Ulster 20 former bok NIQ contracts, packs up and heads out for an early lunch? (joking of course)

How dare you, clearly he wouldn't do that.... he only needs to do 15 our lads can back them up nicely lol

Oli Jager looks set to leave New Zealand, having apparently given up on his All Black ambitions. Is he someone Ireland want at tighthead?

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2023/11/09/prop-oli-jager-could-be-on-leinster-radar-as-he-seeks-early-crusaders-exit/

Rugby Fan wrote:Oli Jager looks set to leave New Zealand, having apparently given up on his All Black ambitions. Is he someone Ireland want at tighthead?

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2023/11/09/prop-oli-jager-could-be-on-leinster-radar-as-he-seeks-early-crusaders-exit/

Yes

Considering Furlong is 30 with plenty of miles on the clock and Bealham sneakily 32 it'd be a shrewd bit of work by the IRFU to get Jager back. Quality TH and a massive unit which is increasingly where propping is heading at that moment.

Murray Kinsella thinks Munster are in the lead to sign Jager.

It'll be interesting to know whether Jager took the initiative to put out feelers, or if Ireland approached him. After all, his long-time club coach is taking over at the All Blacks.

David, this is what you we have spent all those years getting you to where you are now for. You know were Oli needs to end up, there's a good man.

I was thinking he could be a replacement for Ala-alatoa.

Apparently Jager also qualifies for England

lostinwales wrote:Apparently Jager also qualifies for England

Yeah you better run

lostinwales wrote:Apparently Jager also qualifies for England

Born in London.

king_carlos wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Apparently Jager also qualifies for England

Born in London.

You can run too

It sounds like Munster have done the deal on Jager.

Rugby Fan wrote:Murray Kinsella thinks Munster are in the lead to sign Jager.

It'll be interesting to know whether Jager took the initiative to put out feelers, or if Ireland approached him. After all, his long-time club coach is taking over at the All Blacks.

He would have been capped by now if the ABs wanted him. Was definitely good enough for an AB cap.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Murray Kinsella thinks Munster are in the lead to sign Jager.

It'll be interesting to know whether Jager took the initiative to put out feelers, or if Ireland approached him. After all, his long-time club coach is taking over at the All Blacks.

He would have been capped by now if the ABs wanted him. Was definitely good enough for an AB cap.

The interesting twist here is that Jager is choosing to go when his club coach is taking over the All Blacks.

Either Jager suspects Robertson also won't pick him at Test level, or else doesn't think it's worth hanging around to find out, as Ireland looks a better prospect.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Murray Kinsella thinks Munster are in the lead to sign Jager.

It'll be interesting to know whether Jager took the initiative to put out feelers, or if Ireland approached him. After all, his long-time club coach is taking over at the All Blacks.

He would have been capped by now if the ABs wanted him. Was definitely good enough for an AB cap.

The interesting twist here is that Jager is choosing to go when his club coach is taking over the All Blacks.

Either Jager suspects Robertson also won't pick him at Test level, or else doesn't think it's worth hanging around to find out, as Ireland looks a better prospect.

Tamaiti Williams was ahead of Jager for the Saders and ABs to be fair. He looks like an absolute freak in the making. 6'5" 140kg, good ball player and can scrummage.

Then Lomax is only 27 and went toe to toe with Kitshoff in the final.

At best he was probably looking at third choice given those two are looking so good.

The ABs prop depth has really turned around in a short space of time to be fair.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Murray Kinsella thinks Munster are in the lead to sign Jager.

It'll be interesting to know whether Jager took the initiative to put out feelers, or if Ireland approached him. After all, his long-time club coach is taking over at the All Blacks.

He would have been capped by now if the ABs wanted him. Was definitely good enough for an AB cap.

Interesting, have you seen him play much? I haven't watched him at all but wasn't he behind Ala'alatoa at the Crusaders?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Murray Kinsella thinks Munster are in the lead to sign Jager.

It'll be interesting to know whether Jager took the initiative to put out feelers, or if Ireland approached him. After all, his long-time club coach is taking over at the All Blacks.

He would have been capped by now if the ABs wanted him. Was definitely good enough for an AB cap.

Interesting, have you seen him play much? I haven't watched him at all but wasn't he behind Ala'alatoa at the Crusaders?

Ala'alatoa was more developed then having broke into their squad a couple of years earlier as Owen Franks understudy, but, yes he was clearly ahead.

Jager started 19 Super Rugby games across his 7 seasons with the Saders. A ton more bench apps beyond that. 10 of the starts were in 21/22 so clearly higher rated more recently. Most of Jager's pro starts have been in the NPC.

They have been quality players ahead of him though. Owen Franks and Ala'alatoa in his first season. Then Ala'alatoa took over with Jager largely the second choice before both Fletcher Newell and Taimati Williams (he's played both sides for Saders) broke through and look terrific.

From what I've seen of Jager's developed into a really decent TH. It doesn't always transfer when players move leagues though. I thought Matt Symons was destined to be an international when he moved back to England after captaining a fantastic Chiefs side. He drifted around the Prem for a few years being fairly meh before finally showing some of his ability at the end as a workhorse with Quins.

Ireland Squad – Guinness Men’s Six Nations 2024

Forwards (19):

Ryan Baird (Leinster/Dublin University)(15)
Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers)(36)
Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne)(46)
Jack Conan (Leinster/Old Belvedere)(41)
Caelan Doris (Leinster/St Mary’s College)(36)
Tadhg Furlong (Leinster/Clontarf)(72)
Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf)(125)
Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy)(79)
Ronan Kelleher (Leinster/Lansdowne)(26)
Jeremy Loughman (Munster/Garryowen)(4)
Joe McCarthy (Leinster/Dublin University)(5)
Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution)(101) (captain)
Tom O’Toole (Ulster/Ballynahinch)(12)
Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD)(59)
James Ryan (Leinster/UCD)(59)
Dan Sheehan (Leinster/Lansdowne)(21)
Tom Stewart (Ulster/Ballynahinch)(2)
Nick Timoney (Ulster/Banbridge)(3)
Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD)(57)

Backs (15):

Bundee Aki (Connacht/Galwegians)(52)
Harry Byrne (Leinster/UCD)(2)
Craig Casey (Munster/Shannon)(13)
Jack Crowley (Munster/Cork Constitution)(9)
Ciaran Frawley (Leinster/UCD)(1)
Jamison Gibson-Park (Leinster)(30)
Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers)
Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD)(36)
Jordan Larmour (Leinster/St Mary’s College)(30)
James Lowe (Leinster)(26)
Stuart McCloskey (Ulster/Bangor)(15)
Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen)(112)
Calvin Nash (Munster/Young Munster)(1)
Garry Ringrose (Leinster/UCD)(57)
Jacob Stockdale (Ulster/Lurgan)(37)

Training Panellists:

Oli Jager (Munster)*
Thomas Ahern (Shannon/Munster)*
Sam Prendergast (Lansdowne/Leinster)*

Pretty much as expected.

Think POM will captain this 6n then retire.

Extremely stable other than Sexton retiring as expected.

It's good to see POM there after his interview suggesting he was considering his international future after the QF.

Great to see Healy back after such an unfortunately timed injury before the RWC as well. I find how he recreated himself after the initial batch of injuries so interesting. He was a bull of a ball carrier early in his career. Over time he's developed into a rock solid set-piece prop with a high defensive work rate though. It would have been such a shame had injury been the last note in his Ireland career.

With Hansen and O'Brien injured may we see a rejuvenation for Stockdale or Larmour? Once the talk of the town.

Given that France are missing Dupont and Ntamack, I'd instinctively say that Ireland squad should be narrow favourites. But then France have the 3 home games with Ireland in Paris first up. Then I see that Flament is out as well for France. Tough to call but there are two clear standout squads from those named.

Well well, take a look at the strength of the Ireland squad. Good players developed at their club teams and then ripe n ready for international duty, just imagine how much better Wales would be with a similar approach! Personally, don't see anyone coming close to Ireland or France. A lot being made of certain fly-halves moving on but both teams seem to have the depth to cope, and that's before you consider the strength of the entire squads.

Pretty much as expected. Hodnett and Cain Prendergast will probably be asking what they need to do make the squad, but who would you leave out? Timoney has been excellent in a pretty poor Ulster team so I feel he deserves the place but the margins of difference must be small. With Hansen out I think Larmour may be the most likely to benefit then Nash, with Stockdale waiting for Lowe to need a rest.

The big area of weakness is loosehead prop, but there aren't any real alternatives as yet. I'm not a believer in Harry Byrne, but again what are the alternatives? I haven't watched Connacht play much, but Carty doesn't seem on great form, and even as an Ulster supporter I couldn't suggest Billy Burns.

I think the Championship will be decided by the first game in Paris, and my head says home advantage will count, but my heart hopes the guys selected will find a way to win.

I dont think Ireland has even won the first six nations after a world cup as they usually use it as the changing of the guard and it usually tells in results. France to win.

Collapse2005 wrote:I dont think Ireland has even won the first six nations after a world cup as they usually use it as the changing of the guard and it usually tells in results. France to win.

There isn't much changing of the guard in the squad we've announced tbf. I would've liked to have seen a couple more fesh faces in the main squad such as Hodnett and Ahern

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I dont think Ireland has even won the first six nations after a world cup as they usually use it as the changing of the guard and it usually tells in results. France to win.

There isn't much changing of the guard in the squad we've announced tbf. I would've liked to have seen a couple more fesh faces in the main squad such as Hodnett and Ahern

I reckon this is what fans say almost every campaign but perhaps you are right. I think its great that every campaign these days there are guys that you could name that are pretty unlucky not to make the squad. Personally I like Frisch and Balocoune.

The changes post world cup usually come via retirements and this time to be fair there are only really two high profile ones so far.

Interesting to see how former Leinster academy and Connacht lock Cormac Daly gets on with the Queensland Reds.

https://www.theroar.com.au/2024/02/06/a-good-one-meet-the-first-irishman-to-play-for-the-reds-in-nearly-30-years-and-how-he-won-over-sydney-club-rugby/

Well not the result we wanted, but still a championship to win next week.
Next week I would start Henderson and Baird in place of Joe and POM.
If Nash isn't available do we have a winger with out and out pace to replace him? I sometimes think we lack that top end pace in our backs.
Would consider starting ringrose at 13 too

My team for Scotland

Porter
Sheehan
Furlong
Henderson
Bernie
Baird
Vdf
Doris

JGP
Crowley
Lowe
Bundi
Ringrose
Lamore? Stockdale? (Assuming Nash is ruled out, who else.do we have?)
Kenan

Kelleher
Bealham
Healy
Joe
Conan
Casey
Henderson
Lamore or Stockdale (assuming Frawley is out)

I would like to see Timoney on the bench but can't see Conan being dropped

That feels brutal on big Joe, carpet? He was terrific for the first three rounds!